S9 Ep9: Russian mercenaries in Africa with Philip Obaji

[00:00:01] Due to the themes of this podcast, listener discretion is advised.

[00:00:07] Lock your doors, close the blinds, change your passwords. This is Secrets and Spies.

[00:00:27] Secrets and Spies is a podcast that dives into the world of espionage, terrorism, geopolitics, and intrigue.

[00:00:34] This podcast is produced and hosted by Chris Carr.

[00:00:37] On today's podcast I'm joined by award-winning journalist Philip Obaji.

[00:00:41] Philip is based in Nigeria and he writes for the Daily Beast.

[00:00:45] On this episode we're discussing Russian mercenaries in Africa.

[00:00:49] And I will warn you this episode does contain information about sexual assaults and massacres conducted by Russian mercenaries.

[00:00:59] So please do listen with caution.

[00:01:01] Thank you for listening and I do hope you find this episode interesting. Take care.

[00:01:06] The opinions expressed by guests on Secrets and Spies do not necessarily represent those of the producers and sponsors of this podcast.

[00:01:31] Philip, welcome to the podcast. How are you?

[00:01:34] I'm very good, Chris. It's so great to be with you today.

[00:01:38] Well, thank you very much for joining me. I've been wanting to chat with you for a little while

[00:01:42] because I'm sort of fascinated by this story about Russian mercenaries operating in Africa.

[00:01:48] Before we kind of dive into the details, please can you just for the benefit of the audience tell us a little bit about yourself?

[00:01:54] Once again, thank you.

[00:01:55] My name is Philip Obaji.

[00:01:57] Not many people will know me outside Africa, but I'm a journalist.

[00:02:03] An investigative journalist will contribute investigative articles to the Daily Beast.

[00:02:09] The Daily Beast is a US-based news and culture website.

[00:02:14] Well, I have been a contributor at the Daily Beast since 2015.

[00:02:18] But the last two and a half years have been very interesting for me because I have focused almost my entire journalism work at the Beast on the operations of the Russian Wagner Group

[00:02:33] and all the clandestine activities of Russian officials spread across Africa.

[00:02:39] Yeah. So I'm sure you're a very busy man, unfortunately, because of that.

[00:02:44] Yeah, that's correct. Because I spend most of my time in the Sahel in Africa and also in Central Africa.

[00:02:50] Yeah. So I always watch to do in those two regions.

[00:02:53] Yeah. Yeah, indeed. Well, again, thank you for joining me today. It's really great to have you on.

[00:02:59] So, yeah, by most accounts, there have been seven military coups in West and Central Africa since 2020.

[00:03:06] And I was wondering if you could just sort of talk to us a little bit about sort of Russia's role in those coups.

[00:03:11] Well, the first coup we witnessed in Africa, you know, in the last four years, the four years that we've seen coups across West Africa was in Mali 2020.

[00:03:25] And it was something very interesting because the leaders of the coup had traveled to Moscow in January of that year.

[00:03:36] And they returned in August from Moscow.

[00:03:39] And just this after they returned from Moscow, where they had gone on military training, they toppled the government of Mohamed Boubacar Keita.

[00:03:46] So it was very clear that they had planned this coup while they were in Russia on study.

[00:03:54] And since they took power, initially when they kicked out the president, you know, they were not directly involved in terms of being at the leadership of government.

[00:04:09] But much later, the transition committee that this military coup plotters had helped to install was also overthrown by the same people who installed this transition committee.

[00:04:21] So the same coup plotters that carried out the coup in August 2020 currently are the ones who are ruling in Mali.

[00:04:29] And they have very close ties with Russia.

[00:04:32] They quickly invited the Russian Wagner group to help fight against Islamist insurgents that are active in the northern part of Mali.

[00:04:42] Then in Burkina Faso, we saw a coup months after, you know, that in Mali.

[00:04:47] And the leaders of the coup in Burkina Faso were people we know that have been sympathetic to Russia before they overthrew the government.

[00:05:00] They had asked the president, Kabore, to bring in Russian paramilitaries to help fight against Islamist insurgents.

[00:05:06] And once the president rejected that idea, he was toppled.

[00:05:10] And currently in Burkina Faso, we have Russian paramilitaries from the BI Brigitte, which is a private military company active in Burkina Faso.

[00:05:19] We also have another coup. We also had another coup in Guinea.

[00:05:25] We haven't seen so much of Russian link to the coup in Guinea, but that's not very far away.

[00:05:31] I don't think that the Russians have, you know, completely not interested in what was going on in Guinea,

[00:05:38] but we haven't seen much evidence of the involvement in Niger, which is the most recent of the coups that we've seen in West Africa.

[00:05:45] Before the coup, we had seen many people in Niger demonstrating on the streets, you know, seeking Russian involvement in the country.

[00:05:57] And even when the coup happened, we saw many Nigerians demonstrate waving Russian flags and, you know,

[00:06:07] even thanking Russia for intervening in the coup that brought in the current military junta, the government.

[00:06:14] And we have also seen Russian paramilitaries in Niger since after the coup took place, you know, many months ago.

[00:06:23] So yes, last year there was a coup in Niger and this year we have seen Russian military instructors, you know, being very active in the country.

[00:06:33] Yeah. So these are really the four countries that we've seen, you know, so much of Russian involvement, you know, with the military government.

[00:06:42] Thank you very much for that. So why is Russia interested in kind of gaining influence and maybe dominance in Africa?

[00:06:51] Because there's quite a few people in the West who seem to either be ignorant of Russia's influence in the region or seem to sort of dismiss it as unimportant.

[00:07:01] So I was wondering if you could kind of give us a picture of all that.

[00:07:04] Well, in the beginning it was, you know, about economic gains.

[00:07:08] I remember when they were involved in Sudan, you know, when Omar al-Bashar was in the country as the leader of Sudan.

[00:07:18] Sudan is rich in gold, especially in the northern part of the country.

[00:07:22] And when Omar al-Bashar thought he was losing grip on power, he invited the Wagner group to come show things up for him.

[00:07:30] But Wagner did not go into Sudan, you know, for nothing.

[00:07:33] They were interested in doing business in the northern part of Sudan, interested in the gold that was in that region.

[00:07:41] So they had companies which were owned by Prigorshin, the late founder of the group.

[00:07:48] So these companies were dealing with local miners, buying gold of local miners, and even processing this gold.

[00:07:56] They had a processing plant that was owned by the Wagner group in the northern part of the country.

[00:08:02] And all the merchants, most of the merchants that bought the gold from this plant were all Russians.

[00:08:05] So it was based on economics.

[00:08:08] And in the Central African Republic where the Russians have been active since 2017, the major motivation, the major interest in the country is gold and diamond resources.

[00:08:20] If people can recall, you know, when President Faustin Achadar took office in 2016, only the capital, Bangi, was under government control.

[00:08:30] And he needed Russia's help first to get the UN Security Council to lift the arms embargo that had been imposed on the country when the civil war broke out in 2013.

[00:08:40] And also to help ensure that the rebels and militia groups that were seeking to overthrow him did not have their way.

[00:08:49] So the Russians agreed to offer support for both the military and also support in terms of providing security for the president.

[00:08:58] But in exchange for, you know, exploring the natural resources as a gold and diamond resources of the country.

[00:09:05] So you can look at, you can see that the first two countries where the Russians were very active in Africa, the idea was to make something out of the country economically.

[00:09:16] But now we're seeing something else being added to what the Russians really want in terms of their presence in Africa.

[00:09:24] We're seeing them interested in influence and by influence, they want to have more support, more basis to operate, more places to train, you know, paramilitaries and fighters that will be useful perhaps in Ukraine.

[00:09:38] But this is what I also believe personally.

[00:09:41] I think that the Russians have an eye in Europe and Africa is also a very important, you know, platform to use in destabilizing Europe.

[00:09:55] And I'm saying this because I have done a lot of research in the Sahel, in Taibid, many people in recent months.

[00:10:01] And I'm seeing a situation where in no time countries like a country like Niger could become a hub for people smuggling and for trafficking into Europe.

[00:10:14] So in the past, we saw a migrant crisis in Europe that came from many angles, including from Africa, where hundreds, even thousands of people tried to cross the Mediterranean Sea into Italy.

[00:10:28] And one thing many people don't know is that most of the migrants that seek to get into Europe from Africa all assemble in Agadez.

[00:10:38] Agadez is a town in the central part of Niger.

[00:10:42] It is known to be a hub for people smuggling and human trafficking.

[00:10:47] In fact, the EU was so worried about what Agadez could, you know, inflict on Europe that in 2015, the European Union funded the government of Niger in the return of about 31 million euros.

[00:11:03] And these monies were meant to help the government stop the migrant flu.

[00:11:10] And in reaction and in taking action, the Nigerian government quickly passed a law.

[00:11:17] The parliament passed a law banning people smuggling in 2015.

[00:11:21] And what happened when the military took power last year, they quickly suspended that law.

[00:11:30] They abolished that law, which means people smuggling has become legal in Agadez.

[00:11:36] So what we are seeing these days is that vehicles are now being, you know, we are seeing vehicles transport dozens of migrants every Tuesday from Agadez across the Sahara Desert to Libya,

[00:11:51] where they eventually get on boats, taking them across the Mediterranean Sea, you know, to Europe.

[00:11:57] So these are some of the techniques that the Russians will be seizing upon.

[00:12:01] I've already seen evidence of the involvement in this whole people smuggling trade in Agadez.

[00:12:08] So now, first of all, they're in Africa for economic incentives, economic gains.

[00:12:13] And then second of all, they're also looking at ways at which they could destabilize Europe, that's in my opinion.

[00:12:21] Yeah, I think you're correct in that.

[00:12:24] It's, I mean, like with the migrant crisis, the human cost is appalling.

[00:12:28] So many people have died crossing the Mediterranean.

[00:12:32] You know, every other day, there's some horrible story of a boat that's overturned or somebody's washed up on the beach is appalling.

[00:12:41] And then on top of that, it fuels the far right in Europe because you've got sort of racists who look at this and think,

[00:12:48] Oh, my goodness, this is evidence of whatever their racist belief is.

[00:12:52] And it kind of causes a political fracture, which is sort of what's happening.

[00:12:56] The debate over immigration and migrants in the UK has got to a point where it's not even a sensible conversation anymore.

[00:13:05] And I noticed, I think it was over the last week or the week before Finland have closed one of their borders to Russia

[00:13:13] because Russia was sending migrants across the border.

[00:13:16] Yeah, it's a real big issue at the moment.

[00:13:19] And it's very interesting.

[00:13:21] Yeah, for what you sort of saying there.

[00:13:23] Wow.

[00:13:23] That's kind of going on from that then.

[00:13:26] So obviously, we mentioned earlier Yevgeny Pregosian.

[00:13:29] So he was at one time the leader of the Wagner group, but he died in 2023.

[00:13:36] How have Russia's ambitions in Africa sort of been impacted by Yevgeny Pregosian's death?

[00:13:43] And how are they kind of continuing to operate without him?

[00:13:46] Well, I haven't seen anything to prove that Yevgeny Pregosian's death had or has any impact on the operations of the Wagner group.

[00:13:56] Well, after Pregosian was killed in that plane crash in August last year, many people were concerned about, you know,

[00:14:07] were not sure of what could happen in Africa in terms of how Russia wanted to operate.

[00:14:14] So I took it upon myself to travel to the Central African Republic where the Russians had dozens of,

[00:14:20] where they had hundreds of paramilitaries, you know, active in their country.

[00:14:25] What about finding the Central African Republic?

[00:14:27] We'll give a clearer picture as to what the Russians were doing, you know, in Africa

[00:14:33] because they tend to be most active, you know, in the Central African Republic as far as Africa, you know, was concerned.

[00:14:39] So I went there in December and I found evidence of massacres and human rights abuses, you know, in a scale that no one had even seen before.

[00:14:53] And we thought that, you know, after Pregosian's death, we will see less activities as far as, you know, the Russians are concerned

[00:15:01] because the Wagner group under Pregosian was so interested in business, in mining gold, in buying gold, in selling gold, you know, overseas.

[00:15:10] And I didn't expect that, you know, the Russian Ministry of Defense that took control of, you know, the paramilitaries and the operations, you know, in the country,

[00:15:22] will be that much interested in doing business the way that Pregosian did.

[00:15:29] But I found out that nothing had changed in terms of the way the Russians operated there.

[00:15:33] They were seeking to seize new gold mines just the same way they did under Pregosian.

[00:15:39] And they continued to be very brutal in terms of the way they dealt with the local population, particularly those who live in very rural communities.

[00:15:49] So nothing much has changed. We have seen the same kind of operations, the same kinds of disinformation that we saw under Pregosian.

[00:16:01] You were abducted and sort of beaten by soldiers whilst reporting on the Wagner group.

[00:16:08] And I was wondering if you could sort of talk to us about what you experienced, because I was just reading about it.

[00:16:12] It sounded absolutely awful. And you were lucky to get out alive.

[00:16:15] That's correct, Chris. Like I said, I traveled to the Central African Republic in December of 2023, just to find out what was going on following the date of Pregosian.

[00:16:25] I couldn't fly from Nigeria to Bangui, the capital, because in 2022, I was told by contacts in the Wagner group, you know, local contacts in the Wagner group.

[00:16:39] So what people may not understand is that the Russians also recruit people amongst the local population to join its ranks.

[00:16:48] So the war, the fighting in the north-western part of the Central African Republic, often times is between the Russian Wagner group in collaboration with the Central African armed forces versus the rebel group union for peace.

[00:17:08] So two years ago, the Russians offered incentives to members of the Union for peace rebel group.

[00:17:16] And that incentive was that if they were willing to drop their arms, they will be brought into the Wagner fold, taken to Russia on training and also be given allowances regularly.

[00:17:30] So two members of this, the UPC group that joined Wagner, and by the way, they are known as the Black Russians.

[00:17:38] Those rebels recruited by the Wagner group, former rebels recruited by the Wagner group are known locally as the Black Russians.

[00:17:45] So two members of the Black Russians, or two of the Black Russians who left the group because they were no longer being paid by their recruiters, told me that I had been penciled and I had been targeted by the Wagner group.

[00:18:03] They said that their Russian commanders had ordered them to arrest me or even get me killed whenever I was seen in Bangui.

[00:18:12] So it became very dangerous for me to fly into Bangui.

[00:18:16] So I decided to travel through the land border, the border between Cameroon and the Central African Republic.

[00:18:22] So I got into Beloko.

[00:18:26] Beloko is the community on the border between Cameroon and the Central African Republic.

[00:18:33] So I got in late in the evening.

[00:18:36] The following day, I got a motorcyclist who took me on his motorcycle to the border with Cameroon.

[00:18:45] Now, the reason I went to the border was because I had been told the night I got into Beloko that there were many local miners who were fleeing from their homes in the southwestern region where Beloko is located into Cameroon

[00:19:04] because they had faced lots of aggression from the Russians.

[00:19:08] So I was going to the border to find out exactly if these people were fleeing, were truly artisanal miners and to speak to any one of them that I was going to meet.

[00:19:20] So once the motorcyclist took me to the border and once I came down from the motorcycle, I opened my bag.

[00:19:29] I was trying to pick out my phone and my camera.

[00:19:33] The phone was what I was going to use to record audio and then the camera to take photographs.

[00:19:38] And then all of a sudden, a pickup truck just appeared from Nureye.

[00:19:44] And about four Central African soldiers came down the vehicle.

[00:19:48] One of them held me to my waist and started to drag me away.

[00:19:52] And I started to scream, you know, asking them to let me go.

[00:19:58] And while I was screaming and asking them to let me go, someone else, one of the other soldiers,

[00:20:07] started to hit me with a stick or something.

[00:20:10] Then I remember seeing two Russian paramilitaries, you know, telling the Central African soldiers to take me away that I was a criminal.

[00:20:20] And eventually they took me to a small container in a military outpost, a shipping container in a military outpost.

[00:20:27] And I was very close to the border, about 50 or 100 meters away from where I was arrested.

[00:20:35] So I was thrown into the container.

[00:20:37] It had a very small window.

[00:20:38] And so it was just little light that got into the container.

[00:20:43] And in this container there were rats all over.

[00:20:47] And there was no electricity.

[00:20:50] And I was left in that container all through the night.

[00:20:54] Luckily for me, the motorcyclist who took me to the border saw what happened to me.

[00:20:59] And then he went to one of his friends, an army officer in the Central African armed forces,

[00:21:07] who is a bit superior to the officers that arrested me.

[00:21:12] So he went to, he came to the military outpost where I was arrested and then pleaded with the local soldiers to let me go.

[00:21:21] And luckily for me also, the Russians were not there at the time that, you know, that this man came to plead on my behalf.

[00:21:33] So if the Russians were there, maybe they would have insisted that, no, no, that I shouldn't be let go.

[00:21:39] But I was released and my camera and my phone was not returned to me.

[00:21:46] So that's how I lost my equipment.

[00:21:49] But I still went, after I was released, I had bruises all over me, you know, I had a, almost like a fractured wrist.

[00:21:56] But I still, I went back to Cameroon, bought new equipment and then returned to the Central African Republic.

[00:22:02] It hasn't been that I had traveled too far and too long to return home empty-handed.

[00:22:07] So I still wanted to see, you know, to get to the end of my investigation.

[00:22:12] So I returned back and I continued the work that I started.

[00:22:15] Yeah.

[00:22:16] Well, two things.

[00:22:17] Number one, thank God for the motorcyclist.

[00:22:19] And number two, you're a very brave man to go back.

[00:22:22] I think I would have been out of it.

[00:22:26] I had to tell the story.

[00:22:28] And I felt that I had gone too far to return home empty-handed.

[00:22:33] Fair enough.

[00:22:33] It's honestly, it's unbelievable.

[00:22:36] And I'm assuming the Russians at that point didn't know who you were when they grabbed you.

[00:22:42] Yes.

[00:22:43] They didn't know where I was.

[00:22:44] If they knew where I was, they would never have let me go.

[00:22:47] I think this story would have been different.

[00:22:50] Yes.

[00:22:51] So, now before I traveled, I had done many stories in the past.

[00:22:56] I had done dozens of investigative reports on Russian operations in the country.

[00:23:01] So in Bangi, the people in Bangi knew where I was.

[00:23:05] But those away from Bangi, I don't think many of them knew where I was.

[00:23:09] So these ones who arrested me never knew where I was.

[00:23:11] Yeah.

[00:23:12] Wow.

[00:23:12] And you mentioned earlier, so flying is dangerous.

[00:23:15] Is that because locals who've been recruited by the Russians have got access to databases of who's flying and things?

[00:23:23] Why would flying be more dangerous than sort of crossing the border by the bike the way you did?

[00:23:29] So, you know, in Bangi, you have the immigration officers who, you know, are screening passengers inside.

[00:23:37] So what I won't believe is that, you know, my face, my name, all my details may be in the system, in the airport.

[00:23:48] And getting in there, you know, whoever is in Josh will just quickly look at from my passport, be able to identify that this is the guy who's wanted.

[00:23:56] Yes.

[00:23:56] So it's more dangerous in that kind of situation where it's sophisticated, you know, you have the computer systems and what have you, that will always, you know, bring up my identity and, you know, put me in danger.

[00:24:09] Yeah.

[00:24:09] Yeah, that makes, that makes total sense.

[00:24:11] I was just picturing there's a scene in one of the Jason Bourne movies where his face sort of pops up on all the screens.

[00:24:17] Oh my goodness.

[00:24:18] It's him.

[00:24:18] You know, so be like a moment.

[00:24:20] So yeah, that's why I thought it was too dangerous.

[00:24:22] And you have the Russians in the airport also as well.

[00:24:25] And you have the security agencies all in the airport.

[00:24:27] So that makes it very difficult for me, but at the border, it's porous.

[00:24:32] So that plays to my advantage because I could cross into the border and no one is asking me any question.

[00:24:36] That makes sense.

[00:24:37] And out of interest, because I've always been fascinated by, I mean, it's a bit of a wide question, but how sort of journalists operate in hostile places?

[00:24:47] Are there any precautions you have to take, obviously like crossing the border the way you have and things like that, that you can sort of share?

[00:24:53] Because I'm fascinated by how that works.

[00:24:55] I have to be honest, Chris.

[00:24:57] It's really, really tough staying safe in this kind, in this part of the world where so much, so much, you know, disorganization, things are not done properly.

[00:25:10] And you don't have cameras in the border.

[00:25:13] You don't, so it's very, very dangerous.

[00:25:16] And I've had many people ask me, what do you do to stay safe?

[00:25:22] There's very little you can do if you live in this part of the world.

[00:25:24] Now, before I went to the Central African Republic, I had attended a digital security training program in Berlin, Germany, where I learned how to secure myself digitally.

[00:25:38] Now, physically, I still have that challenge because if you have to tell a story, especially as it has to do with brutal, you know, people like those who work with the Wagner group, it becomes very difficult.

[00:25:53] Because oftentimes you have to go in person to the areas where they operate to be able to get the truth.

[00:25:58] You cannot work with surrogates every time because the surrogates are not as trained as you are in the field of journalism.

[00:26:06] And also, you need to confirm what they had told you in the past in terms of what they have seen on the ground.

[00:26:12] I'm talking about the surrogates.

[00:26:14] So you have to go in person.

[00:26:17] And everything I did to minimize the risks that I was going to face, well, worked positively in some ways and the others negatively.

[00:26:29] One of the things I did was not to fly to Bangi where I knew that I will, you know, probably be arrested.

[00:26:34] So I thought going to the border will be, going through the land border will be, you know, a lot safer.

[00:26:40] But it turned out that it wasn't entirely the case because, you know, I was arrested.

[00:26:46] So the next thing I will do if I have to do such a thing is that I have to be watchful and vigilant.

[00:26:51] And before I go somewhere and begin to interview people, I must make sure that I have people also close by who are watching and speaking to me that this danger is coming, you know.

[00:27:05] So those are the new kinds of innovation that will be useful going forward based on what I've experienced, you know, during my last trip.

[00:27:16] So I will have to engage more people who I trust or who I believe, who I trust, worthy to keep an eye on movements and what have you.

[00:27:26] And I hope that that will help.

[00:27:28] But that's the little you can do in terms of security, especially when you're going to an area where you don't know so much about what's going on and an area where you feel that what's going on must be told.

[00:27:40] People have to hear the story about what's going on.

[00:27:43] Before my report on the Koki massacre, which was the report that I came up with during my travel, many people didn't know exactly how the Wagner group operated in the country after pre-Gosian's death.

[00:27:57] And what they were doing in terms of their relationship with the locals, in terms of, you know, their economic drive, their willingness to seize more gold mines and control more mining communities.

[00:28:11] Many people did not know this.

[00:28:13] So that story needed to be told.

[00:28:15] And you know that in Africa, there's not so much, well, people may be interested in what the Russians are doing here, but outside of Africa and Europe, and also in North America, people really don't care that much about how the Russians operate here.

[00:28:31] Not many people care that much.

[00:28:32] I should be, I have to be honest.

[00:28:33] That's why I'm trying to have the story.

[00:28:35] Yeah.

[00:28:36] Yeah.

[00:28:36] And this is why I wanted to have a chat with you because I fear that that's the case.

[00:28:40] I don't think anybody really talks about it unless you specifically read specialist publications or go and seek out that information.

[00:28:49] It certainly barely gets mentioned on the BBC unless something really big happens.

[00:28:55] Yeah.

[00:28:56] It's very unfortunate.

[00:28:58] And I think, you know, it's very important.

[00:29:01] And selfishly, as you said earlier, you know, from a European security point of view, people in Europe should pay attention to this at least.

[00:29:08] But it's, yeah, it's a very underreported area.

[00:29:13] I'm sad to say.

[00:29:15] And, you know, you're taking obviously great personal risks to bring the stories to us.

[00:29:20] So, you know, so thank you for doing what you do.

[00:29:23] And obviously, please stay safe in your future reporting because it's, you're on the front line.

[00:29:28] Yeah.

[00:29:28] And this is a very sort of dangerous thing.

[00:29:32] So, you know, so thank you for doing what you do.

[00:29:35] I would like to kind of go into a little bit of some of your reporting because there are some stories that have popped out for me that I wanted to chat with you about.

[00:29:46] So there was one story in particular where you talked about how women have recently been coming forward who've been accusing Russian paramilitaries of sexual assault.

[00:29:57] I was wondering if you could sort of talk to us a bit about that.

[00:29:59] Well, in many areas, I have spoken to many women who described how they were raped by Russian paramilitaries.

[00:30:09] In the Central African Republic, for example, in Boa, which is the major town, some like to call it a city in the northwest of the Central African Republic.

[00:30:20] I have spoken to a couple of women who said they were raped by Russian paramilitaries on their own farms while they were going to cultivate, you know, their farm lands from nowhere.

[00:30:33] The Russians, you know, showed up and then raped them.

[00:30:35] That I've heard a lot in the Central African Republic.

[00:30:39] I've also spoken to some women who said they were raped in a military base, still in Boa, by Russian paramilitaries,

[00:30:48] who first of all, drugged them before raping them and then later administered contraceptive shots to them.

[00:30:57] And in Mali, there have been women who have also said that they were raped by Russian paramilitaries in their own compounds.

[00:31:05] So we have seen, had these stories.

[00:31:07] I have had these stories in a number of communities within the Central African Republic and in Mali.

[00:31:15] And I think rape has constantly been used as a weapon of war by these Russians.

[00:31:23] And sadly, the story of rape is not going away.

[00:31:28] And I want to wish, I always wish that, you know, I stop hearing this and then I stop telling people about this because it's one of the most painful, you know, testimonies I have listened to from many people in these countries.

[00:31:43] But, Chris, it's not going away.

[00:31:46] I keep hearing these stories regularly.

[00:31:48] Yeah, yeah. No, as you're saying, it sadly is a weapon of war, isn't it?

[00:31:54] And it's appalling because it's not just sort of Russian mercenaries that do it.

[00:31:58] You've had stories of like ISIS have been doing things like this and so on.

[00:32:02] Even the local Central African forces are also involved in this.

[00:32:06] Yeah. So it's not just the Russians alone.

[00:32:08] Yeah.

[00:32:09] Hmm. No, no, indeed.

[00:32:11] Well, you also reported that Russian paramilitaries have been accused of slaughtering dozens of people who had, you know, secure access to some of these gold mines and one in Gallo in particular.

[00:32:24] Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

[00:32:27] So I spent time in Gallo, that's in the northwest of the Central African Republic, you know, talking to many witnesses of a massacre in Koki.

[00:32:36] Koki is not so far away from Gallo. So that's a gold mine in Koki, which the Russians wanted to take over.

[00:32:45] So in September last year, they went to the community and asked the locals, those who lived near the mine, to vacate.

[00:32:52] And they gave them an ultimatum, you know, that if they don't leave within a month or so, they were going to be forced out.

[00:33:02] So the following month, the Russians came in and then began to open fire at people just near the mine.

[00:33:09] And then eventually, many people ran away from, many people fled from Koki into Gallo, where I met some of them and interviewed them.

[00:33:19] And you know what happens in the Central African Republic is that many of these mines are situated in communities that are held by rebels and other militia groups.

[00:33:33] So it's never going to be easy for the Russians to just go and take over these mines because the people who control these areas are armed.

[00:33:41] So you have to fight. And the Russians often believe that these locals all work closely with the armed groups.

[00:33:51] And that's why whenever they show up, they just open fire at everyone because they don't trust anybody.

[00:33:58] And even when they think of these mines, they don't work with the locals.

[00:34:02] You know, they don't recruit the locals to work as artisanal miners in these mines because they don't trust that these locals are not, you know, affiliated with these rebel groups.

[00:34:11] So that was what I wanted to investigate to what extent did the Russians, you know, commit violence and did what was illegal to take over these mines.

[00:34:25] And I was told by the over 16 respondents, 16 witnesses to the attack that more than 50 bodies were counted after the incident last October.

[00:34:38] So, yeah, that was exactly what I found out about the Koki massacre.

[00:34:44] Yeah, God, that's terrible. 50 bodies.

[00:34:48] And some of these were Chinese workers, weren't they? Is that right?

[00:34:54] The Chinese workers were not in Koki.

[00:34:57] It was in a town called Chimbulu.

[00:35:00] And yeah, so that was in March, yeah, I think last year where one evening about nine Chinese miners were killed in the mine.

[00:35:12] Well, I didn't have any complete evidence that the Russians were involved.

[00:35:17] But locals had told me that they saw the Russian vehicle drive, you know, to the area where the mine was located just minutes before the Chinese were killed.

[00:35:28] Yeah, so that's how much we know.

[00:35:32] But nobody said they saw the Russians open fire at the Chinese.

[00:35:36] But they said local vigilantes who were here close to the mine told me that they had seen a Russian vehicle drive to the mine just about half an hour before, you know, the Chinese men were killed.

[00:35:48] Yeah. So it could be that the Russians carried out the attack.

[00:35:53] It also may not be.

[00:35:54] But the fact that they were there just before the incident occurred, you know, puts them as one of the top suspects in that attack.

[00:36:03] And that could make things quite, if Russia are involved, that could make things a bit awkward for Russia and China,

[00:36:08] because they kind of have this sort of agreement now, don't they?

[00:36:10] That's correct. And it happened at the time when President Xi was visiting Moscow on a meeting with Vladimir Putin.

[00:36:20] And yes, there's always a lot of collaboration between Russia and China.

[00:36:25] Their relationship is growing stronger, especially since Russia invaded Ukraine.

[00:36:29] But even if it was the Russians that did so, I think that the gains between China, between Beijing and Moscow, you know, may appear huge to each other.

[00:36:40] And they won't overlook what happened in the Central African Republic here.

[00:36:44] How influential is China and Africa now as well?

[00:36:48] Because obviously we talk about Russia, but Russia and China had this sort of new agreement.

[00:36:52] Has that had much of an effect with the needs of Chinese influence as well?

[00:36:56] Well, China's influence is still huge. It's not going away anytime soon.

[00:37:01] And China is totally involved economically.

[00:37:07] They're not bringing private and military companies or seeking to overthrow governments.

[00:37:13] They're all about doing business, offering loans to African governments,

[00:37:17] seizing assets when African governments can no longer pay these loans.

[00:37:20] And also, in some other ways, that some people will criticize because in some countries, people have alleged that the deals between the Russians and local governments, you know, it's all covered, you know, with corruption and what have you.

[00:37:37] But they have been involved in the economic parts, construction, mining, and what have you.

[00:37:45] So I don't think there's any country in Africa where the Chinese are not looking to do something that has to do with either construction or mining.

[00:37:54] So that's almost good.

[00:37:55] But for the Russians, it's beyond that.

[00:37:57] They're involved in a number of countries, either using the military, so-called military instructors or using PMCs, private military companies.

[00:38:08] And they're also involved in mineral exploration.

[00:38:15] And with the Russians, you see a lot of things happening in very rogue ways, you know, where gold is seized from some countries like in Sudan and Central African Republic.

[00:38:29] And the revenue from this gold bypasses the state.

[00:38:32] So you see, they're doing things in very unconventional ways, very legal ways.

[00:38:38] I'm not saying the Chinese are doing it completely legally, but to some extent, they're dealing with government.

[00:38:48] It's a little bit known, so to speak, in terms of the MOUs they're signing with government, the loans that they're giving to African governments.

[00:38:58] So that we understand.

[00:39:00] But China's influence is still there, still growing.

[00:39:03] It's a little different from what the Russians are doing.

[00:39:06] Yeah.

[00:39:07] Yeah.

[00:39:08] Thank you.

[00:39:09] Thank you for that.

[00:39:12] So, gosh, back to the, sort of talk about Russian mercenaries.

[00:39:17] So they've been, so there's been reporting from, sorry, it's been sort of your reporting about sort of massacres that have been happening, you know, against sort of civilians.

[00:39:27] And also, again, rape comes up in this.

[00:39:31] There's been situations where Russian mercenaries have also sort of filmed these rapes as well.

[00:39:37] So I've got Pandera and Abuja are the sort of two areas where, where Pandera is where the massacre happened.

[00:39:44] And then Abuja, there's been…

[00:39:46] It's not Abuja, it's in Mali, where they filmed it.

[00:39:49] So, I reported from Abuja, but the incident happened in Mali, yeah, in a village in Mali.

[00:39:53] Oh, did it?

[00:39:53] Okay.

[00:39:54] Wow.

[00:39:54] Yeah.

[00:39:55] I mean, can you talk to us a bit about sort of your reporting on this?

[00:39:57] Because this is pretty horrific.

[00:39:58] In Pandera, what happened, Pandera is a village in the northwest of the Central African Republic.

[00:40:04] And what happened was that rebels had attacked a Russian military beast somewhere near Beluku, that's in the Central African Republic.

[00:40:14] And in retaliation, the Russians went to Pandera, where they believed that many of these rebels have come from.

[00:40:24] So they went into Pandera and began to open fire at people, you know, big people.

[00:40:31] Anyone they saw, you know, around, they captured and then began to maltreat, you know.

[00:40:36] But before doing so, they had already decided to shoot and many people were killed in Pandera.

[00:40:42] Dozens of people were killed in Pandera during this attack.

[00:40:44] So that was what happened in Pandera.

[00:40:46] And they, in Oania, that's a village in Mali, the Russians went and then they assaulted women just near close, just near, around the secondary school in the village.

[00:40:58] And then they raped women and then began to film their naked bodies.

[00:41:02] So, yeah, we've seen them behave in such manners, not just in Mali, also in the Central African Republic, where the ones went to a maternity ward in the hospital and then raped women who had just given birth to children.

[00:41:18] Yeah.

[00:41:18] So, that happened.

[00:41:20] Wow.

[00:41:20] It's one of the studies I wrote in 2022.

[00:41:24] So, yeah, we have seen such very, you know, crazy and insane actions taken by the Russians in Mali and in the Central African Republic.

[00:41:35] It's insane, really.

[00:41:37] And I know some of these sort of mercenaries have been recruited out of prison because of the war in Ukraine and things.

[00:41:44] And I think even you've reported on that.

[00:41:45] What have you sort of found?

[00:41:47] Does that explain some of their behavior?

[00:41:49] Because some of these people are kind of convicted criminals who are now out in the loose?

[00:41:53] Well, that is one example, you know, that they are recruited from jails, you know, some maybe from mental institutions.

[00:42:02] But also, it could also be that they are looking down a lot at the local population and also that what they do could instill fear into the hearts of people.

[00:42:16] You know, whatever the case is, we are seeing people who are behaving in very insane ways have no regard for the rights of the local population and no regard for the dignity of people.

[00:42:31] So, it's one of the most difficult studies I have to listen to, studies about rape and sexual abuse.

[00:42:38] Yeah, it's just appalling.

[00:42:40] There's, you know, I don't know what to say.

[00:42:42] It's just horrific, really.

[00:42:44] Yes.

[00:42:45] And the fact that it's sort of kind of going on without much sort of pushback is appalling, really.

[00:42:52] And just to add to it as well, there was, you were reporting about that these mercenaries have also been kind of kidnapping children as young as 11.

[00:43:01] And I wanted to understand sort of what is it there? Why are they kidnapping these children?

[00:43:05] Well, most of these kids that the Russians have seized eventually made to work in gold mines.

[00:43:14] Like I said earlier, you know, when they seize a gold mine, they don't want to work with the local artisanal miners because they have the feeling that these miners that were in these mines before they came, before the Russians came, are all linked to the various armed groups or the rebels who were in control of these mines before these mines were seized by the Russians.

[00:43:36] So they prefer to have new miners, you know, you know, walking these mines.

[00:43:41] So sometimes they go to firewood communities or maybe communities nearby and then seize children from their parents and then force them to work in these gold mines.

[00:43:50] So that's what we've seen.

[00:43:52] So, yeah, so they're forcing these children to work in mines.

[00:43:54] My God, that's horrific.

[00:43:56] And what happens to these children when they kind of grow up?

[00:44:00] Do they carry on doing this or do we know what happens to them?

[00:44:04] Well, it's a recent thing.

[00:44:06] So we only see what happens going forward, whether the children become or whether they become antagonistic towards the Russians or, you know, just find a way to run away.

[00:44:18] So only time will tell.

[00:44:19] Yeah.

[00:44:20] Yeah.

[00:44:21] That's terrible.

[00:44:22] That's terrible.

[00:44:22] And so why are these sort of Russian mercenaries being able to get away with these terrible crimes?

[00:44:28] Has there been much sort of local pushback either at a government level or kind of more on the ground civilian level?

[00:44:36] Well, the locals are helpless.

[00:44:38] Very helpless.

[00:44:39] And then, you know, this happens mostly in communities that's very hard to reach.

[00:44:44] Internet penetration in the country is very low.

[00:44:47] You even have a situation where most of the country operates on the 2G network.

[00:44:54] So which is perhaps one of the lowest levels of internet connectivity.

[00:44:59] We are talking about 5G and above these days, but yeah, the Central African Republic is still on 2G.

[00:45:04] So people can hardly even record what's going on and then share around because one, they can't even access smartphones.

[00:45:13] Poverty levels in the country is so high.

[00:45:16] And two, even if they did have smartphones, the connection makes it difficult, you know, to make these things better.

[00:45:22] So if you even, if you have noticed many of the reports that you read about Russian atrocities in the media, including in the Western media, are reports about what happens in the capital, Bangi.

[00:45:39] You will find most reports about Russian atrocities in and around Bangi.

[00:45:45] You hardly hear of what they do in areas around the Northwest or North Eastern parts of the country because access to these areas is very, very difficult.

[00:45:54] So there's a lot of fear.

[00:45:55] And even for the locals who are trying, who are seeking to travel from the Northwest or North Eastern region to Bangi, because everything happens in Bangi, which is the capital.

[00:46:05] To many of them is difficult, is dangerous because there's still a civil war going on in that country, still fighting between the various armed groups and government forces in collaboration with the Russians.

[00:46:17] So these victims are already living in difficulty, already living in a very tough situation to begin with.

[00:46:29] Yeah.

[00:46:30] Yeah.

[00:46:30] So I was going to ask as well, like, what is the, is there a sort of local view on Russian influence of Africa?

[00:46:38] What are the ordinary citizens sort of feel about the Russians?

[00:46:42] If you go to the Central African Republic, you will find mixed reactions.

[00:46:46] If you live in Bangi, the capital, there are many people that will tell you, well, life here is better with the Russians around.

[00:46:53] And I can understand why they are saying so.

[00:46:56] Before the Russians came, there was still fighting between government forces and the rebels.

[00:47:05] So it was only a matter of time before the rebels over through the capital, over, over, over, over, over, over, over the capital, so to speak.

[00:47:12] You know, and many people had seen this fighting go on for days and even, even months, in fact.

[00:47:19] And then the Russians came and then pushed back, pushed these rebels and militiamen away.

[00:47:26] So for these people who lived and saw how these Russians and the local armed forces were able to achieve success against these militias and these rebels, that would tell you that it's to their profit, to their advantage.

[00:47:47] But then there are some people still in Bangi who will say, well, we've faced brutality from the Russians.

[00:47:52] That group of people may not be so many.

[00:47:54] But then if you go out of Bangi, if you go to the Northwest, you go to the Northeast, the region called the Andaha region, you will see many people causing the Russians, telling you that the Russians have taken away every single thing that they've got.

[00:48:13] And, you know, the Russians have been behind killings of their loved ones, family members and what have you.

[00:48:18] And that's because this is what they have lived under, you know, for so many years, in the last five, six years, since the Russians got very active and very involved in their communities.

[00:48:28] You know, in the B2C's gold mines and diamond mines, a lot of their family members have been killed.

[00:48:36] So different mixed reactions depending on who you're speaking to and what you're speaking to them, yeah.

[00:48:42] Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that.

[00:48:44] So last week you were in South Africa and you're appealing to the president that South Africa must be bold in telling Russia that Africans can no longer be manipulated and deceived into making weapons for Ukraine.

[00:48:56] How was that appeal received?

[00:48:59] Well, what I realized, you know, is that many Africans really haven't seen the scale at which Russia's operations, you know, harm, not just the local Africans, but also, you know, in the broad analysis you find out what Russia is doing here also holds the world crisis in many ways.

[00:49:23] So I first of all went to speak to African journalists who had assembled in Johannesburg on the African, you know, at the African investigative journalism conference.

[00:49:33] And I went to tell journalists exactly what was going on in Africa and why it was important that we talked about these activities.

[00:49:43] Many Africans still believe that Russia's involvement in Africa is much more profitable to Africans than the West, you know, and that they believe that in many countries, the West have failed so much.

[00:49:59] In countries like Mali, where the French were involved for many years in the battle against the insurgents, we haven't seen anything in terms of gains, you know.

[00:50:08] And I made it clear that I wasn't in South Africa to advocate for the West.

[00:50:14] I was in South Africa to speak about what the Russians were doing.

[00:50:17] And I kept telling the local media and journalists from neighboring countries that South Africa has to take the lead in terms of being able to condemn Russian actions.

[00:50:29] The reason why South Africa has to take the lead is because South Africa has proven to be a country that has much stronger ties with Russia than any other African country.

[00:50:41] You know, they're also part of the BRICS alliance, the only African country that is amongst the founding members of the BRICS alliance.

[00:50:49] President Amafosa was in, you know, Russia recently for the BRICS summit and had conversations with Vladimir Putin.

[00:50:56] And we expected that one of the things he would have spoken to Putin about was the fact that Africans were recruited, you know, from East Africa, from West Africa, and even from Southern Africa,

[00:51:09] and taken to, you know, Russia or Russian regions to work in weapon-making factories.

[00:51:19] And it's not as if they left Africa knowing that we're going to end up working in weapon factories.

[00:51:23] There were deceit by Russian officials that were going to work in bigger, in much more reputable organizations, but ended up making weapons, you know, to fight Ukraine.

[00:51:34] So I wanted South Africa to be aware of what was going on across Africa and why the government, particularly President Amafosa, should be bold enough to call Putin to order.

[00:51:45] Yeah. And yes, people understood the importance of doing so, and they're willing to apply pressure on government.

[00:51:53] Yeah. And do you think South Africa will apply any pressure on Russia?

[00:51:57] I don't think it will happen just like that.

[00:52:01] I think it will take enormous pressure, you know, from journalists, civil society, even amongst the local population, because eventually this recruitment drive may also get to South Africa.

[00:52:14] So I think it will take time if we're going to get any tangible results.

[00:52:20] But we'll continue to try. Yeah.

[00:52:22] Yeah. I'm interested in attitudes in Africa about the war in Ukraine.

[00:52:27] And I was wondering if you could kind of give us some insight in that.

[00:52:30] Is there any kind of consensus view on how the war is viewed?

[00:52:33] Well, in Africa, I have spoken to many people across the continent, and I hardly hear anyone who's saying that Russia was right in attacking Ukraine.

[00:52:44] Yes, I have spoken to people who have condemned the West in terms of how they have encouraged the expansion of NATO.

[00:52:52] Because in many places in Africa, people believe that the war in Ukraine started because Russia was concerned about NATO's expansion, you know, and that Ukraine was seeking to join NATO.

[00:53:05] And that's why Russia didn't want Ukraine to join NATO, and that's why it's bombarding Ukraine.

[00:53:10] So that's the perception in many areas.

[00:53:12] And for that reason, there are some people who will be like, yes, we sympathize with the Ukrainians, but they shouldn't have, you know, established very close ties with the EU or the West.

[00:53:25] And then they shouldn't have made any effort to join NATO because joining NATO puts Russia at big risk.

[00:53:33] So yes, people are not happy that Russia is fighting in Ukraine, but also not happy that Ukraine is making, Ukraine was making moves to be so allied toward the EU and to find ways into getting into NATO.

[00:53:48] Yeah.

[00:53:50] And it sounds a bit like that there's some, should say anti-Western messaging that sort of in Africa that may or may not have influenced those views.

[00:54:01] How much of anti-Western messaging is there in Africa at the moment?

[00:54:05] And is that messaging effective?

[00:54:07] It is growing.

[00:54:08] You know, a couple of years back, we've seen much Russian disinformation focused on Francophone Africa, especially in areas like the Central African Republic.

[00:54:16] And in stable democracies like the Ivory Coast and Togo.

[00:54:22] So, and even in Senegal where we saw a lot of disinformation articles that were clearly being sponsored by Russian, you know, trolls and Russian officials being published by the media in countries across Western and Central Africa.

[00:54:39] So clearly these articles are aimed at changing the narratives and making, you know, the West look very bad and Russia look like, you know, the biggest city of Africa.

[00:54:52] So we have seen the media, even in Nigeria, where I come from, published such articles.

[00:54:57] And some of the investigations that have carried out in partnership with some very big organizations in the media have proven that these articles originated from Russian trolls that are close to the Russian government.

[00:55:14] So in terms of the impact of these kind of messages, we have seen a lot of people in West Africa begin to think the way that the Russians want them to think that Russia is providing the solutions that no one else, not even the West, have been able to provide for Africa.

[00:55:36] But we're looking at data and we're seeing that that's not even true, that the fighting, for example, in Burkina Faso attacks by Islamist insurgents have even grown since the Russians got involved.

[00:55:48] And so also in Mali.

[00:55:50] So in terms of impact, when it comes to successes of the Russians, we haven't seen so much, but their messaging is growing.

[00:56:01] This information is increasing.

[00:56:02] And that's what worries, you know, many of us.

[00:56:04] Yeah, indeed, indeed.

[00:56:06] And I believe, was it in Mali, there were some troll farms, Russian-backed troll farms that were using locals or something to target the West as well?

[00:56:17] Well, this happens not just in Mali.

[00:56:20] We have seen these troll farms in, I want to believe you're talking about Ghana, you know, during the last election.

[00:56:27] Ah, yeah, yeah.

[00:56:28] The last U.S. election where a troll farm was set up in Ghana just to influence opinion or influence voters in the U.S.

[00:56:39] We also saw that troll farm do their work in Nigeria.

[00:56:43] So both in Ghana and Nigeria, there were troll farms that were set up by the IRA, that's the Internet Research Agency that was founded by ProGosian many years ago.

[00:56:53] So this troll farm was very active in 2020 in the buildup to the U.S. elections.

[00:56:57] Well, this time around, we've seen the Russians operate in many ways, in different ways, you know, paying the media in Africa to publish articles and also influencing some so-called analysts and what have you who go on the radio and TV to talk about Russia and its impact, you know, in positive ways.

[00:57:19] Yeah.

[00:57:20] As they want people to believe in Africa, yeah.

[00:57:22] What are sort of relations like between Nigeria and Russia and all of this sort of situation that we'd be talking about?

[00:57:29] Well, Nigeria is, I wouldn't say, have built extraordinary ties with Russia.

[00:57:36] Government still relates with Russia as they will relate to any other country that they think is important to Nigeria.

[00:57:44] So they haven't really struck an extraordinary relationship.

[00:57:49] So Nigeria is still very much a country that has bigger ties with the West than Russia.

[00:57:56] So I would say, well, the government is pro-Western, so to speak.

[00:58:01] But that doesn't also mean that they are anti-Russia.

[00:58:04] They still maintain some bit of cordial relations with Russia, yeah.

[00:58:09] So that's the situation in Nigeria.

[00:58:12] Yeah.

[00:58:12] And do you think that could change?

[00:58:14] Do you think it could swing to being more pro-Russian or do you think things will still stay quite stable?

[00:58:18] Well, at the moment, the government is getting loans from the World Bank and the IMF.

[00:58:23] So that may be so important to continue to build ties with the West.

[00:58:29] Yeah.

[00:58:30] And if that changes in the future, only time will tell.

[00:58:33] But I don't see that in the immediate future that will change in any way.

[00:58:39] Yeah.

[00:58:39] Yeah.

[00:58:40] Yeah.

[00:58:40] So what do you think the future holds for Russian mercenaries operating across Africa?

[00:58:45] Do you think they're going to get more powerful or do you think things are going to swing around?

[00:58:49] As far as military governments continue to expand in Africa, the Russians will continue to become very useful.

[00:58:58] Now, the West also have had their own issues.

[00:59:02] If you look at the Central African Republic, for example, when President Tudera took office in 2016,

[00:59:07] I want to believe that he spoke to as many people as possible, including Western countries for assistance.

[00:59:13] But the fact that they were slow to get involved, Russia has an opportunity to do business there.

[00:59:19] And that's why the country continues to be grateful to Putin and to Russia, because the safety of the president,

[00:59:28] the safety of democracy in the country, so to speak, was enabled by the fact that the government was not overthrown by the rebels,

[00:59:36] simply because the Russians provided security.

[00:59:39] But now the military governments in West Africa have all created partnerships and alliances with Russia.

[00:59:47] And that's because, you know, other democracies have front at the fact that the military is in power.

[00:59:55] And when you find every your neighbors, you know, in ECOWAS, ECOWAS is a West African original body,

[01:00:01] and then the EU and the African Union and the UN all condemning these military governments and Russia,

[01:00:10] you know, opening its arms to working with them,

[01:00:14] you'll always find that Russia will continue to be active in these countries,

[01:00:18] because only Russia is willing to deal with them, you know, in ways that they want, yeah.

[01:00:23] Is there anything the international community could be doing better to help curb Russian actions in Africa,

[01:00:30] and obviously their influence in Africa?

[01:00:32] And also, is there anything just generally the West could be doing better to help Africa?

[01:00:37] Yeah, there are many things they could do.

[01:00:39] Yeah, first of all, I'm not sure that they have opened their arms completely to partnerships.

[01:00:48] In many ways, there are ways that democracies can be strengthened in Africa.

[01:00:53] There are ways that they can work closely with various civil society groups,

[01:00:58] and even governments in terms of, one, strengthening democracy.

[01:01:02] Then two ways at which there could be some bit of partnerships, you know,

[01:01:08] with academias, with businesses, with governments, and what have you.

[01:01:13] There are many ways to achieve that.

[01:01:14] But also, the most important thing I think they can do now in the West is,

[01:01:18] there has to be a way to, you know, fight disinformation,

[01:01:24] because that's what's also changing people's perception about Russia from negative to positive,

[01:01:32] and the perception about the West from positive to negative.

[01:01:35] So that has to happen.

[01:01:37] I was in Washington, D.C. in September, where I appeared before Congress,

[01:01:43] to brief Congress on the activities of Russian paramilitaries across Africa,

[01:01:50] and how Russia was, you know, promoting fake news and disinformation.

[01:01:57] And one of the requests I made was that the media in Africa be strengthened

[01:02:01] to a point where they can easily identify disinformation, do fact-checking,

[01:02:06] and be able to counter these narratives.

[01:02:08] Because Russia is also spending money in the media.

[01:02:11] Yeah, spending, maybe not even too much money,

[01:02:14] but at least they've been able to gain results in terms of spreading false narratives

[01:02:20] about, you know, some governments and also about the West here in Africa.

[01:02:24] So at least, you know, the EU and even the US and Canada, whatever,

[01:02:32] can also assist in terms of helping the media in Africa to deal with these narratives.

[01:02:38] So that's what I have been campaigning on.

[01:02:40] And then the West can also create platforms where this can be talked about,

[01:02:45] because not many people know what's going on.

[01:02:47] And that's why thanks to you, Chris, and many others who are looking at this

[01:02:51] and seeing that this is one issue we should talk about.

[01:02:54] Yeah.

[01:02:54] Yeah.

[01:02:54] I hope this helps this interview, because I think it is a very important issue.

[01:02:58] And I think, as I was saying earlier, I just don't think there's,

[01:03:01] unfortunately, a lot of reporting in the West about all of this.

[01:03:04] I think people, especially with the, you know, sort of Ukrainian angle and things,

[01:03:10] I think a lot of people, I think, I don't know, is it, I was just thinking about this,

[01:03:14] a lot of people sort of seem to view Russia as a bit on the back foot at the moment

[01:03:19] because of the war in Ukraine, because it hasn't gone very well.

[01:03:21] But it feels to me like that I don't think people should underestimate Russia,

[01:03:28] because I think, you know, they're very powerful.

[01:03:30] And I think, obviously, they're, you know, very powerful in Africa at the moment.

[01:03:35] And I think that that's going to have a massive influence on everybody, really.

[01:03:40] That's coming.

[01:03:40] So, you know, so thank you.

[01:03:42] Yeah.

[01:03:42] Yeah. Well, a couple more questions before we finish.

[01:03:45] I mean, is there anything listeners today who are listening to this can do to help in all of this?

[01:03:52] Well, I'd like listeners, you know, to be able to spread the word.

[01:03:58] I have been doing the much I can on social media, especially on X.

[01:04:04] I think on a near-the-day basis to talk about, to post about Russian atrocities and Russian oppressions in the country.

[01:04:12] And I've been calling on many people to retweet, to ask their friends and followers to follow my account

[01:04:18] so they get to see what's going on and then retweet to share.

[01:04:24] Now, this is with X.

[01:04:26] You know, I'm trying to get the words that really describe how X operates.

[01:04:32] So it's no longer Twitter.

[01:04:33] So I can't use the retweet.

[01:04:35] So to repost some of my posts on X.

[01:04:40] So that will be very important.

[01:04:41] I want a situation where many more people know what's happening in Africa.

[01:04:47] And if many more people know what's happening in Africa,

[01:04:50] there will be much more efforts made by Western governments, the EU, to deal with what's going on.

[01:04:58] Yes.

[01:04:58] I don't want a situation where we see many more Africans get on very dangerous trucks

[01:05:04] and get on very dangerous boats to take them across the Sahara and across the Mediterranean to get into Europe.

[01:05:12] And that's one of the aims that Russia has.

[01:05:16] You know, one of the things that Russia wants to do is to flood Europe with migrants

[01:05:19] and then help create a migrant crisis.

[01:05:22] So if listeners can talk more about this, if they want to know a lot more about this,

[01:05:28] they can check out my X account at Philippe Obergine.

[01:05:33] And then see what's going on and then help to repost and share this article, this post that I'm making.

[01:05:42] Thank you for that.

[01:05:43] And is there anything else important to you that you would like to add before we finish today?

[01:05:47] Is there anything we haven't covered?

[01:05:48] I think we've spoken about virtually everything.

[01:05:52] There's a huge push from my end.

[01:05:55] And I know that there are some other journalists who are doing the same to get the world to pay attention

[01:06:01] to what Russia is doing in Africa and to get the support of the international community,

[01:06:07] you know, to support the media, to support local governments, to help strengthen democracy,

[01:06:13] and then to keep us safe in Africa.

[01:06:15] But also to keep Europe, you know, intact and safe as well because Russia has an aim, like I said before,

[01:06:23] to use Africans who are desperate to find better lives in Europe.

[01:06:29] They want to use Africans to create another crisis in terms of migration for Europe, yeah.

[01:06:35] Thank you for that.

[01:06:36] So where can listeners connect with you and find out more about your work?

[01:06:40] Well, they can find me on X.

[01:06:43] My name, my X account is at Philip Obagi, P-H-I-L-I-P-O-B-A-G-I.

[01:06:52] So that's Philip Obagi.

[01:06:54] And then I also write, a lot of my investigations have been published by the Daily Beast because I am a contributor at the Daily Beast.

[01:07:01] So if they Google Philip Obagi, they will find part of the results on Google, my author page on the Daily Beast.

[01:07:13] So click on it and you'll find all my investigative reports.

[01:07:16] There are dozens of investigative reports I have done on Russian paramilitaries and Russian operations in Africa.

[01:07:22] And, okay, they can also follow my other social media accounts on Instagram, on Facebook, and on LinkedIn.

[01:07:30] But I do much of my posting on X, yeah.

[01:07:33] Fantastic.

[01:07:34] Well, thank you very much for joining me today, Philip.

[01:07:36] The pleasure is mine, Chris.

[01:07:37] Thank you for having me.

[01:08:07] Thanks for listening.

[01:08:09] This is Secrets and Spies.