S9 Ep8: David Bickford, former Legal Director of MI5 & MI6 turned author

[00:00:01] Due to the themes of this podcast, listener discretion is advised.

[00:00:07] Lock your doors, close the blinds, change your passwords. This is Secrets and Spies.

[00:00:27] Secrets and Spies is a podcast that dives into the world of espionage, terrorism, geopolitics, and intrigue.

[00:00:33] This podcast is produced and hosted by Chris Carr.

[00:00:37] Hello everybody, it's Chris here. I hope you're well.

[00:00:39] On today's podcast I'm joined by David Bickford, who was the former Legal Director of MI5 and MI6, and he's now turned author.

[00:00:48] On this episode we discuss his career and we discuss his writing. I hope you enjoy this episode.

[00:00:55] The opinions expressed by guests on Secrets and Spies do not necessarily represent those of the producers and sponsors of this podcast.

[00:01:18] So David, welcome to the podcast.

[00:01:21] Thanks very much for having me, Chris. Pleasure.

[00:01:23] It's great to have you on. How are you doing? You well?

[00:01:26] Very well, thanks. And you?

[00:01:28] Brilliant. Yes, good, thank you.

[00:01:29] You look very fit.

[00:01:30] Oh, thank you. I wish I was very fit. Maybe the camera's lying a bit there, but I'm working on it. I am working on it.

[00:01:37] Had a very high protein breakfast this morning with some scrambled eggs.

[00:01:42] That was good. That got me going.

[00:01:44] We went for an early morning walk in the park, which we do anyway. So fresh and bright.

[00:01:51] Yes, excellent. Excellent. Well, for the benefit of the audience, please can you just tell us a little bit about yourself?

[00:01:56] Yeah, sure. Sure. Sure. Well, my early childhood was quite interesting because I was born between two air raids, which set me off on a pretty adventurous life one way or another.

[00:02:11] Yes.

[00:02:12] And then later on, when I was about six, my parents went abroad to South America. My father set up an airline with an ex RAF chum of his in the UK. So my first flight out for my first summer holiday at about six or seven was on a converted bomber.

[00:02:30] Oh, wow.

[00:02:32] Oh, wow.

[00:02:32] Which took about two days actually to get there. Absolutely fascinating. It was great. So every summer holiday, I went to visit my parents. And then I went to visit either my grandparents or my godfather for my other holidays, which led me to a sort of pretty independent life and pretty adventurous because there wasn't much discipline around except at boarding schools.

[00:02:55] So you're letting loose when not at school.

[00:02:57] That's right. So that pretty much followed me throughout my life, actually. I was very lucky.

[00:03:03] Oh, brilliant. Brilliant. And so you ended up joining the intelligence services. And I was wondering if you could talk just a little bit about sort of that journey into joining the intelligence services and did anything in particular inspire you on that path?

[00:03:16] Yeah, it was interesting, actually, because I went into private practice as a lawyer. And after about five years, I was at a meeting and I saw the partner, the senior partner, the consultant.

[00:03:31] And I think because of my background, I looked at it and I thought, there's my future all set out for me. I don't want it.

[00:03:38] And shortly after that, my wife, Carrie, who I'd married two or three years previously, came in and said, look, here's this job in the Turks and Caicos Islands, which is in the Bahamas or the bottom of the Bahamas in the Caribbean for the legal advisor to the Turks and Caicos Islands government.

[00:03:57] What about it? It was two year contrary. So we said, well, let's go.

[00:04:01] Yeah, that was fascinating because the ministers there were trying to change the islands from a salt raking and fishing community to an offshore tax haven and tourist center.

[00:04:15] So that gave one a sort of blank sheet of paper, which was really exciting and very good fun.

[00:04:21] A couple of American bases there. So I got to know the Americans who all went to the States a lot.

[00:04:25] Hmm.

[00:04:26] Then the foreign office asked if I would join the foreign office as a legal advisor.

[00:04:31] And that took me into doing defense work, space work, human rights work.

[00:04:36] And then I spent three years in Berlin as the legal advisor to the British military government there.

[00:04:43] That was during the Cold War.

[00:04:45] And that was fascinating because I met the Russians for the first time and found out how they operated.

[00:04:51] They operate very much on the same lines as the Americans.

[00:04:54] Interesting.

[00:04:55] Interesting.

[00:04:56] If you go into an agreement meeting with them, you think that the meeting and the agreements concluded, but they'll always come up with an extra point.

[00:05:07] So you have to go into those meetings with an extra point yourself in order to even the score.

[00:05:13] Anyway, I came back to the foreign office again and went into a lot of defense work, work closely with the Americans countering narcotics trafficking and money laundering through the Caribbean.

[00:05:27] And then the intelligence agencies asked me if I'd like to join them as their legal director.

[00:05:33] And that's how I found my way there.

[00:05:36] I think it was largely because my background suited what they do.

[00:05:42] They were in a flux changing from the Cold War, the end of the Cold War, to the world of terrorism and organized crime.

[00:05:53] And I think my background suited that.

[00:05:56] So I was very lucky to be asked.

[00:06:00] Yeah.

[00:06:00] Yeah.

[00:06:00] I remember the sort of headlines around the early 90s, speculating on what the future of intelligence was.

[00:06:06] And I think counter-narcotics became quite a thing in the early 90s for MI6.

[00:06:11] Yes.

[00:06:12] Yes.

[00:06:12] I mean, it was very interesting because at that time, you're right, there was a big debate.

[00:06:17] What were we going to do?

[00:06:19] Well, we'd already seen terrorism coming over the horizon, international terrorism.

[00:06:24] Also seen that there was a rise in technical espionage coming in, taking our technical secrets away from our companies.

[00:06:35] So there was obviously a big job for us to handle.

[00:06:39] But it involved moving the intelligence agencies from that totally secret sort of internecine world of espionage into the much more open world of terrorism and organized crime.

[00:06:52] So it was a very interesting time to be there.

[00:06:56] Yeah.

[00:06:56] Fantastic.

[00:06:56] Are you able to tell us a bit about your career in MI6 and MI5 and MI6 as the legal director and kind of what a legal director does?

[00:07:06] Yeah.

[00:07:07] Interesting.

[00:07:07] Well, the first thing I think is that the legal director works very, very closely with the officers and not only in the operational exercises,

[00:07:20] but also the legislative and human rights aspects of the work that the intelligence agencies do.

[00:07:27] If you look at it, the first thing we had to do when we moved to terrorism and organized crime was to legislate for the organization because it was so secret in those days that nobody talked about it.

[00:07:38] So we brought them out into the open and also prepared the way to bring secret intelligence into the open, into the courts.

[00:07:47] Now, that involved very close relationship with the officers who were brilliant.

[00:07:51] I mean, they took to this like a duck to water.

[00:07:54] It was very interesting.

[00:07:57] So there's the relationship that the legal directorate has with the directors of the agency.

[00:08:06] They're on the board of directors.

[00:08:08] The relationship also goes with government departments, the foreign office, the home office, the treasury solicitors, and the director of public prosecutions, the attorney general.

[00:08:19] Those relationships all work, shaping the legislation for the agencies, the human rights aspects of what they do, regulating the running of agents, the discussion as to how agents are to be run lawfully, doing unlawful things, but being made lawful, if you like.

[00:08:41] And then the very close discussions with the officers themselves when they're planning operations, that's eavesdropping, going into properties, putting in bugging devices, telephone intercepts, running agents.

[00:08:58] All of those aspects are discussed fully with the agents, with the officers before they go out on these operations.

[00:09:05] The lawyers sit back, of course, and sit at home and wait.

[00:09:09] But the people who do the real fantastic work are the officers.

[00:09:15] They're an incredible bunch.

[00:09:17] Real privileged to have worked with them, actually.

[00:09:20] Yeah, no, definitely.

[00:09:21] It sounds like the work of the intelligence always seems to be on the edge of the law and obviously crossing over into areas of, if we say, murky legal areas and things.

[00:09:32] Like as you mentioned just now, like planting bugs or running an agent who might be a part of a terrorist organization.

[00:09:40] I mean, I just did an episode just not long ago about the infamous steak knife.

[00:09:45] And there's headlines at the moment of an unnamed agent who may be part of a terrorist organization who is being accused of domestic violence.

[00:09:57] So there are some interesting sort of people who get run as agents.

[00:10:01] I suppose how does one sort of find that sort of balance for national security versus legality versus morality?

[00:10:09] Yeah, it's a very, very good point.

[00:10:12] And the base plate for it is the European Convention on Human Rights.

[00:10:17] That's inbuilt into the legislation of the agencies.

[00:10:22] The agencies can only investigate if it's necessary.

[00:10:26] And then what they do has to be proportionate to what they're investigating, if that makes sense.

[00:10:32] Yes, yes, it does.

[00:10:34] So recruiting agents is not just going out onto the streets and chatting someone up in a pub and saying, come and join.

[00:10:44] There's a process beforehand which has to be gone through.

[00:10:49] And there are also safeguards, not only for making sure that the agent doesn't go beyond what is necessary and proportionate.

[00:10:59] So that has to be dealt with and discussed with the agent.

[00:11:02] But also, the agent is monitored continually.

[00:11:08] And the agent runners have continual discussions about how the agent's to be run within the regulations,

[00:11:16] because the regulations cover this, so as to prevent the agents running on their own, going on a frolic of their own.

[00:11:27] That also applies to the intelligence officers.

[00:11:31] But there, the situation is really never presented a problem.

[00:11:37] And I think that really goes back to the recruitment of the intelligence officers.

[00:11:42] The first thing that is looked for is integrity, which is an interesting thought,

[00:11:50] because intelligence officers do go out and they lie and they cheat and they steal and do all these things.

[00:11:59] But unless they have full integrity and can't be entirely trusted by the agencies themselves,

[00:12:08] then, of course, it's useless operating them.

[00:12:11] And they create more trouble than they're worth.

[00:12:15] So integrity is absolutely essential for any intelligence officer.

[00:12:21] Then, of course, there's the courage that they have, which is amazing.

[00:12:25] And the lateral thinking.

[00:12:27] They have to be able to think fast on their feet.

[00:12:30] They have the research capability to dig deep into organizations.

[00:12:36] And they're constantly, certainly against terrorists and organized criminals.

[00:12:41] They're obviously constantly on the walk.

[00:12:45] One quick other question as well.

[00:12:47] I suppose with regards to the difference between MI6 and MI5,

[00:12:53] is there a...

[00:12:54] So, like, where I'm getting at with the CIA and the FBI,

[00:12:59] the FBI are sort of leading towards a conviction a lot of times,

[00:13:02] whilst the CIA is more about gathering information.

[00:13:05] So if I extrapolate that to MI6 and MI5,

[00:13:09] is there a sort of difference between the two agencies

[00:13:13] and sort of what their legal concerns are?

[00:13:16] Because obviously with counterterrorism,

[00:13:18] one hopes, with MI5 at least, it's leading towards a conviction.

[00:13:22] Yes.

[00:13:23] The objective for terrorists is to try and lead to a conviction.

[00:13:29] So going back, I'll come to that later,

[00:13:32] because I think that's also a really, really interesting point.

[00:13:36] As far as MI6 and MI5 are concerned,

[00:13:39] MI6 operates abroad, technically.

[00:13:43] MI5 operate at home.

[00:13:45] The fact of the matter is, of course,

[00:13:47] that since terrorism and organized crime,

[00:13:50] this is international.

[00:13:51] It's coming from all over the world.

[00:13:53] So in a sense, there's a very big crossover.

[00:13:59] Now that's handled by joint committees

[00:14:02] that assess the information and create jointory

[00:14:08] so that the organizations aren't operating against each other

[00:14:11] in any sense at all.

[00:14:13] So in many spy novels,

[00:14:16] there's always this clash between MI6 and MI5

[00:14:21] and all the rest of it.

[00:14:22] But that's great for novels.

[00:14:25] And obviously I do it myself.

[00:14:28] Yes.

[00:14:29] In terms of intelligence agencies clashing with each other.

[00:14:34] But that doesn't happen in the agencies.

[00:14:38] Certainly these days they operate together.

[00:14:43] So both of them, in a sense,

[00:14:46] are, for terrorism,

[00:14:48] are operating either to stop a terrorist operation from happening,

[00:14:54] which is crucial,

[00:14:57] or they're, and or, actually,

[00:15:01] they're operating so as to convict the terrorists

[00:15:04] in court proceedings.

[00:15:07] Now, the real problem arises

[00:15:10] in trying to convert secret intelligence

[00:15:15] into evidence that can be given in open court.

[00:15:19] As you can imagine,

[00:15:21] there may be agents' information.

[00:15:23] There's telephone,

[00:15:24] well, you can't use telephone intercept,

[00:15:26] but you can use bugging information.

[00:15:29] And you also use the information

[00:15:33] that's been garnered

[00:15:35] by the intelligence officers themselves.

[00:15:39] When this is being,

[00:15:41] when the operations are being planned,

[00:15:43] the lawyer's job is to try and work out

[00:15:46] how the intelligence can be converted into evidence.

[00:15:50] Got you, yeah.

[00:15:53] That's not very easy to do

[00:15:55] because all the file,

[00:15:57] if you go to court,

[00:15:58] if a prosecution's mounted,

[00:16:00] all the files have to go to

[00:16:02] the judge in charge of the trial.

[00:16:06] He sees the lot.

[00:16:08] And if he sees any information

[00:16:10] that's helpful to the defense,

[00:16:13] he will insist that that's produced.

[00:16:16] Yeah, yeah.

[00:16:17] So the lawyer's job

[00:16:20] during these operations

[00:16:23] is to gather the intelligence

[00:16:26] and organize it

[00:16:29] so that even though

[00:16:32] all the information goes to the judge,

[00:16:35] at their best estimate,

[00:16:37] none of that information

[00:16:38] will help the defense.

[00:16:41] Now, that's not an easy thing to do,

[00:16:43] as you can imagine.

[00:16:45] And it's difficult

[00:16:47] for the intelligence officers themselves

[00:16:49] to go out and gather information

[00:16:51] on that basis.

[00:16:52] I mean, they're creeping into houses at night.

[00:16:54] They have to come out

[00:16:55] and they have to write down

[00:16:56] a full description of what they did,

[00:16:59] not just for the operation,

[00:17:02] but for the court later.

[00:17:04] So there's a lot of stress

[00:17:06] put on the intelligence officers

[00:17:08] when they're doing that.

[00:17:10] Yeah, yeah.

[00:17:11] And I know,

[00:17:12] just speaking about the Americans,

[00:17:14] the case against Khalid Sheikh Mohammed,

[00:17:17] who's currently,

[00:17:17] I think he's in Guantanamo Bay,

[00:17:19] I've lost track now,

[00:17:21] because of the use of torture,

[00:17:23] et cetera,

[00:17:23] from a legal point of view,

[00:17:24] it's made that case very difficult

[00:17:25] to get a prosecution.

[00:17:26] And it's sort of in this legal limbo

[00:17:28] at this point as we speak, isn't it?

[00:17:30] Yeah, yeah.

[00:17:31] Well, I mean,

[00:17:33] we operate under ECA,

[00:17:35] European Convention.

[00:17:36] Torture and inhuman treatment

[00:17:39] is prohibited.

[00:17:40] In fact, we went through all that

[00:17:42] with the Irish terrorist cases

[00:17:45] when they complained about torture

[00:17:47] and inhuman treatment

[00:17:49] way back in the 70s.

[00:17:51] I was involved in those cases

[00:17:53] and that was a very good learning curve

[00:17:56] to make quite sure

[00:17:57] that that sort of thing

[00:18:00] just does not happen.

[00:18:02] I mean, apart from anything else,

[00:18:03] it's not very helpful either

[00:18:04] because you can never really trust

[00:18:06] what's being told here.

[00:18:08] Yeah, yeah, indeed, indeed.

[00:18:11] Well, one thing I was going to ask you

[00:18:12] a little bit,

[00:18:12] you mentioned earlier

[00:18:13] about the Joint Intelligence Committee.

[00:18:15] I was wondering if you could just talk

[00:18:15] to us a bit about how MI5 and MI6

[00:18:18] kind of work with the government

[00:18:19] because on this podcast,

[00:18:21] it's been very hard to get people

[00:18:23] from a British background

[00:18:24] to talk about the intelligence services

[00:18:26] just because of some of the legality

[00:18:28] around all that.

[00:18:30] So I was wondering if you could talk

[00:18:30] to us a little bit about that.

[00:18:31] Yes.

[00:18:33] Operating,

[00:18:34] how they operate with government.

[00:18:35] Yeah, with the government.

[00:18:37] Yeah, and the Joint Intelligence Committee,

[00:18:39] et cetera.

[00:18:39] Yes, of course.

[00:18:40] And how that information

[00:18:40] sort of fed in.

[00:18:41] Yeah.

[00:18:44] I mean,

[00:18:45] the Home Office

[00:18:46] and the Foreign Office

[00:18:47] are kept very,

[00:18:48] very much up to speed

[00:18:49] with what the agencies are doing.

[00:18:52] I mean,

[00:18:52] they have to be

[00:18:53] because you've got

[00:18:54] foreign policy involved.

[00:18:55] You can't have MI6

[00:18:57] going off on a loop

[00:18:58] and the Foreign Office

[00:19:01] isn't aware

[00:19:02] of what's happening.

[00:19:03] Obviously,

[00:19:03] not all the detail,

[00:19:04] but certainly

[00:19:05] the overarching

[00:19:07] what they're doing.

[00:19:09] The same with the Home Office

[00:19:10] and the MI5.

[00:19:13] They have to keep

[00:19:15] the Home Office involved.

[00:19:16] And ministers

[00:19:17] are always involved

[00:19:18] in situations

[00:19:21] where warrants

[00:19:22] are asked for

[00:19:23] for eavesdropping

[00:19:25] or running agents.

[00:19:28] Fortunately,

[00:19:30] recently,

[00:19:31] that situation

[00:19:32] has also been

[00:19:34] helped

[00:19:35] by the fact

[00:19:36] that the agencies

[00:19:37] now have to go

[00:19:38] to judges

[00:19:38] if they're going

[00:19:39] to go for

[00:19:40] very,

[00:19:40] very intrusive

[00:19:43] operations

[00:19:43] against individuals.

[00:19:45] And judges

[00:19:45] have to give

[00:19:46] their consent

[00:19:48] to surveillance

[00:19:50] operations,

[00:19:51] to eavesdropping

[00:19:52] operations

[00:19:53] and intrusive

[00:19:55] surveillance,

[00:19:56] which is

[00:19:57] something which

[00:19:58] helps the agencies

[00:19:59] enormously.

[00:20:00] Because in the past,

[00:20:01] there were always

[00:20:01] arguments that they

[00:20:02] were going

[00:20:03] beyond the bounds

[00:20:04] because ministers,

[00:20:06] of course,

[00:20:06] would give them

[00:20:07] permission to do

[00:20:08] what they wanted.

[00:20:09] Well,

[00:20:10] notwithstanding,

[00:20:10] that wasn't the case.

[00:20:12] But nevertheless,

[00:20:12] to have judges

[00:20:13] do this

[00:20:14] helps them

[00:20:14] enormously.

[00:20:15] So yes,

[00:20:16] there is a good

[00:20:16] liaison between

[00:20:17] the agencies

[00:20:18] and government.

[00:20:19] Yeah,

[00:20:21] fantastic.

[00:20:22] Well,

[00:20:22] what kind of

[00:20:23] threats are

[00:20:23] MI5 and MI6

[00:20:25] are dealing

[00:20:25] with today?

[00:20:27] Russia,

[00:20:28] obviously.

[00:20:29] And that's

[00:20:30] constant.

[00:20:31] And one of the

[00:20:33] problems,

[00:20:34] apart from the

[00:20:35] obvious espionage

[00:20:36] problems of

[00:20:38] interfering with

[00:20:39] defense

[00:20:40] and technical,

[00:20:43] is the fact

[00:20:44] that they're

[00:20:45] spreading

[00:20:45] fake news

[00:20:47] all the time.

[00:20:48] Now,

[00:20:50] the agencies

[00:20:51] have to work

[00:20:52] out whether

[00:20:53] fake news

[00:20:54] is news

[00:20:56] or is fake.

[00:20:58] And that

[00:20:59] wastes time

[00:21:00] and money

[00:21:00] tracking that

[00:21:01] done.

[00:21:02] In the

[00:21:04] early days

[00:21:05] before fake

[00:21:06] news became

[00:21:07] the thought

[00:21:09] of the day,

[00:21:10] the agencies

[00:21:11] used to have

[00:21:12] to deal

[00:21:12] with fantasists

[00:21:13] who did

[00:21:14] exactly the

[00:21:15] same thing.

[00:21:15] They'd come

[00:21:16] with a story

[00:21:17] something that

[00:21:18] had to be

[00:21:19] tracked down

[00:21:19] and money

[00:21:20] spent.

[00:21:21] So,

[00:21:22] in that

[00:21:22] sense,

[00:21:23] there's an

[00:21:24] undermining

[00:21:25] of the

[00:21:27] budget that

[00:21:28] the agencies

[00:21:29] have and the

[00:21:30] time that the

[00:21:30] officers are

[00:21:32] spending in

[00:21:33] order to track

[00:21:33] down this

[00:21:34] fake news,

[00:21:35] which has its

[00:21:36] own problems

[00:21:37] that way.

[00:21:39] And China

[00:21:41] is in

[00:21:41] exactly the

[00:21:42] same position

[00:21:43] and industrial

[00:21:44] espionage on

[00:21:45] both Russia

[00:21:46] and China

[00:21:47] is immense

[00:21:49] and has to

[00:21:50] be looked

[00:21:50] out for

[00:21:51] all the

[00:21:51] time,

[00:21:52] whatever

[00:21:53] company you

[00:21:54] are,

[00:21:54] because China

[00:21:56] or Russia

[00:21:56] can set up

[00:21:58] fake companies

[00:22:00] that pretend

[00:22:01] to be something

[00:22:01] they're not.

[00:22:02] They'll hire

[00:22:03] people and

[00:22:04] try and insert

[00:22:05] them either

[00:22:06] into government

[00:22:06] offices or

[00:22:08] defence

[00:22:08] establishments.

[00:22:10] So,

[00:22:11] there's a

[00:22:11] sort of

[00:22:12] background

[00:22:13] of great

[00:22:14] murkiness

[00:22:15] that has to

[00:22:15] be investigated

[00:22:16] by the

[00:22:17] intelligence

[00:22:17] agencies.

[00:22:19] They're very

[00:22:20] good at it,

[00:22:20] the Russians

[00:22:21] and Chinese.

[00:22:22] We have to

[00:22:23] be on a

[00:22:24] watch all

[00:22:25] the time

[00:22:25] for them.

[00:22:26] That's apart

[00:22:27] from the

[00:22:27] fact that

[00:22:28] China,

[00:22:29] you've got

[00:22:30] China's

[00:22:30] threat to

[00:22:31] Taiwan,

[00:22:31] which,

[00:22:32] of course,

[00:22:32] the Americans

[00:22:32] have to

[00:22:33] deal with

[00:22:33] more.

[00:22:34] You've got

[00:22:35] Russia and

[00:22:35] Ukraine,

[00:22:36] the intelligence

[00:22:38] side of

[00:22:38] that.

[00:22:39] And the

[00:22:40] absolute need

[00:22:42] to stop

[00:22:42] Russia before

[00:22:43] it moves

[00:22:45] further into

[00:22:45] Ukraine and

[00:22:46] then starts to

[00:22:47] get the idea

[00:22:48] that they can

[00:22:49] take on the

[00:22:49] Baltic states

[00:22:50] as well.

[00:22:51] Yeah,

[00:22:52] that's a great

[00:22:52] concern at the

[00:22:53] moment,

[00:22:53] isn't it?

[00:22:53] It does feel

[00:22:54] like that's

[00:22:54] what Russia's

[00:22:55] goal is

[00:22:56] effectively.

[00:22:57] Yeah,

[00:22:57] and it is

[00:22:58] real.

[00:22:58] Yeah,

[00:22:59] because a lot

[00:22:59] of people

[00:22:59] try and

[00:23:00] downplay that

[00:23:01] or try

[00:23:02] and,

[00:23:03] I don't

[00:23:03] know,

[00:23:04] there are

[00:23:04] people out

[00:23:05] there of

[00:23:05] belief that

[00:23:05] once Russia

[00:23:06] gets Ukraine

[00:23:07] it will just

[00:23:07] stop there,

[00:23:08] but it

[00:23:09] feels like

[00:23:09] Russia,

[00:23:10] well Putin

[00:23:11] in particular

[00:23:11] wants to

[00:23:12] rebuild the

[00:23:13] eastern bloc

[00:23:14] in some way.

[00:23:16] Yes,

[00:23:16] of course,

[00:23:17] yes.

[00:23:18] It's an

[00:23:18] imperialist

[00:23:19] design,

[00:23:20] if you like.

[00:23:20] Yeah,

[00:23:21] yeah,

[00:23:21] yeah,

[00:23:22] definitely.

[00:23:22] And I

[00:23:23] think,

[00:23:23] I was

[00:23:24] lucky because

[00:23:25] my father

[00:23:26] obviously went

[00:23:27] through the

[00:23:27] war and

[00:23:28] he'd been

[00:23:28] through the

[00:23:29] pre-war

[00:23:31] situation,

[00:23:31] which mirrors

[00:23:33] exactly what's

[00:23:33] going on at

[00:23:34] the moment

[00:23:34] with Hitler.

[00:23:35] And he

[00:23:36] was always

[00:23:37] on the

[00:23:39] qui-vie

[00:23:40] because he

[00:23:40] travelled

[00:23:41] extensively

[00:23:41] throughout the

[00:23:42] world.

[00:23:43] And he

[00:23:45] was always

[00:23:45] during my

[00:23:46] childhood

[00:23:47] talking about

[00:23:47] the threats

[00:23:48] that could

[00:23:48] exist if we

[00:23:50] weren't very,

[00:23:50] very careful.

[00:23:51] Yeah,

[00:23:52] yeah,

[00:23:53] indeed.

[00:23:53] No,

[00:23:54] it's interesting

[00:23:54] that parallel

[00:23:55] between the

[00:23:55] 20s and

[00:23:56] 30s and

[00:23:57] now.

[00:23:58] Yeah,

[00:23:58] history does

[00:23:59] seem to

[00:23:59] repeat itself.

[00:24:00] And there

[00:24:00] is some

[00:24:00] famous saying

[00:24:01] about if you

[00:24:01] want to

[00:24:01] understand

[00:24:02] the present,

[00:24:02] you need to

[00:24:02] understand

[00:24:03] the past.

[00:24:05] I can't remember

[00:24:06] the exact

[00:24:06] saying now,

[00:24:06] but it rings

[00:24:08] true.

[00:24:09] And away

[00:24:09] from those

[00:24:10] big states

[00:24:10] as well,

[00:24:11] obviously,

[00:24:11] MI5 and

[00:24:11] MI6 have

[00:24:12] to deal

[00:24:12] with sort

[00:24:12] of organised

[00:24:13] crime and

[00:24:14] terrorism as

[00:24:15] well.

[00:24:15] And there's

[00:24:17] been talk of

[00:24:17] the war on

[00:24:18] terror may

[00:24:20] have taken

[00:24:21] away too

[00:24:21] much resources

[00:24:22] from dealing

[00:24:23] with Russia

[00:24:23] and China.

[00:24:24] I don't know

[00:24:25] if you have

[00:24:25] any perspective

[00:24:26] on any of

[00:24:27] that.

[00:24:27] No,

[00:24:28] I don't.

[00:24:29] I mean,

[00:24:30] I do know

[00:24:31] that during

[00:24:33] my time,

[00:24:33] these things

[00:24:34] were watched

[00:24:35] very,

[00:24:35] very carefully

[00:24:36] by the

[00:24:36] boards of

[00:24:37] both agencies

[00:24:38] and they

[00:24:39] were very

[00:24:40] careful to

[00:24:40] make sure

[00:24:41] that they

[00:24:42] weren't going

[00:24:42] to miss

[00:24:43] the future,

[00:24:44] if you see

[00:24:45] what I mean.

[00:24:46] They were

[00:24:46] prepared for

[00:24:47] it.

[00:24:47] And this

[00:24:47] goes back

[00:24:48] to a very

[00:24:49] interesting

[00:24:49] thing that

[00:24:50] went on

[00:24:50] at the

[00:24:51] end of

[00:24:51] the Cold

[00:24:51] War,

[00:24:53] when the

[00:24:54] criticism of

[00:24:55] the agencies

[00:24:56] was,

[00:24:56] well,

[00:24:56] what are

[00:24:56] they for?

[00:24:58] But the

[00:24:59] agencies

[00:24:59] already seen

[00:25:00] the future

[00:25:01] of terrorism

[00:25:02] and organised

[00:25:03] crime and

[00:25:04] also the

[00:25:05] rise of

[00:25:05] Russia and

[00:25:06] China.

[00:25:07] Yeah,

[00:25:07] yeah.

[00:25:08] Well,

[00:25:08] thank you

[00:25:08] for that.

[00:25:09] Now,

[00:25:09] we sort

[00:25:09] of covered

[00:25:10] this,

[00:25:10] but I

[00:25:10] want to

[00:25:10] just ask

[00:25:11] you again

[00:25:13] a little

[00:25:13] bit about

[00:25:13] the complexity

[00:25:14] of convicting

[00:25:15] terrorist

[00:25:15] suspects.

[00:25:16] And the

[00:25:16] reason I

[00:25:16] ask this

[00:25:17] is because

[00:25:17] I'm fascinated

[00:25:18] by both,

[00:25:20] it was the

[00:25:20] liquid bomb

[00:25:21] plot many

[00:25:21] years ago,

[00:25:22] and I had

[00:25:23] an interesting

[00:25:23] guest about

[00:25:24] that,

[00:25:24] I think

[00:25:25] two summers

[00:25:25] ago now,

[00:25:27] where apparently

[00:25:28] some of the

[00:25:28] suspects,

[00:25:29] you know,

[00:25:30] they could

[00:25:31] sort of get

[00:25:32] all the

[00:25:32] components of

[00:25:33] explosive,

[00:25:33] but it's

[00:25:34] very hard to

[00:25:35] then convict

[00:25:35] someone for

[00:25:36] wanting to

[00:25:36] make a bomb.

[00:25:37] And then the

[00:25:38] other aspect I'm

[00:25:39] interested in is

[00:25:39] these sort of

[00:25:40] ISIS returnees

[00:25:42] who've come

[00:25:42] back from

[00:25:43] Syria and

[00:25:44] may or may

[00:25:45] not have

[00:25:45] escaped

[00:25:45] conviction.

[00:25:46] And I was

[00:25:46] wondering if you

[00:25:47] have any

[00:25:47] kind of insight

[00:25:49] into that

[00:25:49] complexity of

[00:25:51] convicting

[00:25:51] terrorists that

[00:25:52] you could

[00:25:52] share with

[00:25:53] us.

[00:25:54] It really

[00:25:55] does go

[00:25:56] back to

[00:25:56] this problem

[00:25:57] that officers

[00:25:59] will collect

[00:26:01] information,

[00:26:02] let's call it

[00:26:03] information,

[00:26:04] calling it

[00:26:04] intelligence

[00:26:05] quite often

[00:26:06] scrambles the

[00:26:07] issue.

[00:26:08] If one treats

[00:26:09] it as

[00:26:09] information,

[00:26:11] they will

[00:26:12] come with

[00:26:12] information,

[00:26:13] information,

[00:26:14] and at

[00:26:15] that point

[00:26:16] one has

[00:26:16] to make

[00:26:18] a sort of

[00:26:19] informed decision

[00:26:20] as to whether

[00:26:21] that information

[00:26:22] can actually

[00:26:23] be converted

[00:26:24] into evidence

[00:26:25] to put

[00:26:27] before a

[00:26:27] court,

[00:26:28] or whether

[00:26:30] it is so

[00:26:30] secret that

[00:26:33] probably it

[00:26:33] will be better

[00:26:34] used to

[00:26:35] disrupt what's

[00:26:36] going on.

[00:26:37] And that's a

[00:26:38] decision that's

[00:26:39] being made

[00:26:40] continually.

[00:26:42] I don't

[00:26:43] think I can

[00:26:43] really go

[00:26:43] much further

[00:26:44] than that

[00:26:45] because obviously

[00:26:46] the information

[00:26:46] could come

[00:26:47] from an

[00:26:47] agent that

[00:26:48] has to be

[00:26:49] treated so

[00:26:49] carefully.

[00:26:50] You cannot

[00:26:52] possibly have

[00:26:53] any agent

[00:26:54] thinking that

[00:26:54] he's going

[00:26:55] to be exposed

[00:26:55] or she's

[00:26:56] going to be

[00:26:56] exposed.

[00:26:57] Absolutely

[00:26:58] not.

[00:26:59] Totally not.

[00:27:00] Eavesdropping

[00:27:01] is slightly

[00:27:01] different because

[00:27:02] if that's

[00:27:03] exposed at

[00:27:04] trial,

[00:27:04] normally it's

[00:27:05] finished,

[00:27:06] but there

[00:27:06] again,

[00:27:07] that eavesdropping

[00:27:08] might be

[00:27:08] involved in

[00:27:09] another

[00:27:10] operation.

[00:27:11] So you

[00:27:12] have to be

[00:27:12] extremely

[00:27:13] careful that

[00:27:14] taking one

[00:27:15] operation to

[00:27:16] trial doesn't

[00:27:17] expose another

[00:27:18] operation.

[00:27:20] Yeah,

[00:27:21] I remember

[00:27:21] I don't know

[00:27:22] if you've ever

[00:27:22] seen the TV

[00:27:22] show The Wire.

[00:27:24] There's a

[00:27:25] somewhere in

[00:27:25] one of the

[00:27:26] seasons,

[00:27:26] one of the

[00:27:27] criminal gangs

[00:27:29] studied court

[00:27:30] transcripts to

[00:27:31] find out more

[00:27:31] about how the

[00:27:32] police use

[00:27:33] bugging.

[00:27:34] And I found

[00:27:34] that quite

[00:27:35] interesting.

[00:27:36] And I think

[00:27:36] a lot of

[00:27:37] people forget

[00:27:37] that terrorist

[00:27:38] organisations are

[00:27:39] not just a

[00:27:40] sort of

[00:27:40] aggrieved

[00:27:41] individual.

[00:27:41] They're run

[00:27:42] by very

[00:27:43] smart people

[00:27:44] who run

[00:27:45] counterintelligence

[00:27:46] and all

[00:27:46] sorts of

[00:27:47] stuff.

[00:27:48] No,

[00:27:48] I think that

[00:27:49] on both

[00:27:50] sides,

[00:27:51] I was going

[00:27:51] to talk

[00:27:52] about that,

[00:27:53] both terror

[00:27:54] and counterterrorism,

[00:27:55] leave aside

[00:27:56] this,

[00:27:56] let's concentrate

[00:27:57] on counterterrorism

[00:27:58] or terrorism

[00:27:59] and organised

[00:28:00] crime.

[00:28:01] Yes,

[00:28:02] very,

[00:28:02] very smart

[00:28:03] people running

[00:28:04] it.

[00:28:04] And they

[00:28:05] use smart

[00:28:06] people.

[00:28:07] They use

[00:28:07] bankers,

[00:28:08] they use

[00:28:08] lawyers,

[00:28:09] they use

[00:28:09] accountants,

[00:28:11] and they

[00:28:11] use business

[00:28:12] people.

[00:28:13] And these

[00:28:14] people are

[00:28:15] smart,

[00:28:16] and they

[00:28:17] are operating

[00:28:18] rather in the

[00:28:18] same way that

[00:28:19] the intelligence

[00:28:20] agencies are

[00:28:20] operating.

[00:28:21] They're operating

[00:28:23] in order to

[00:28:23] avoid being

[00:28:24] discovered.

[00:28:26] And yes,

[00:28:27] they're smart,

[00:28:28] and therefore

[00:28:29] the intelligence

[00:28:29] agents themselves

[00:28:31] have to be

[00:28:32] extremely smart.

[00:28:33] Yes.

[00:28:34] And I don't

[00:28:35] mean necessarily

[00:28:37] university

[00:28:37] smart.

[00:28:40] It's street

[00:28:41] smart as

[00:28:42] well.

[00:28:43] It's that

[00:28:44] ability to

[00:28:44] understand the

[00:28:46] criminal mind

[00:28:46] and understand

[00:28:48] the minds

[00:28:48] of terrorists,

[00:28:50] which is why

[00:28:51] both agencies

[00:28:52] have a very

[00:28:52] broad spectrum

[00:28:53] of recruitment.

[00:28:55] Yeah.

[00:28:56] Quite right,

[00:28:57] too.

[00:28:57] Yeah,

[00:28:58] yeah,

[00:28:58] definitely,

[00:28:59] definitely.

[00:28:59] It's good.

[00:29:00] Yeah,

[00:29:00] well,

[00:29:01] hopefully,

[00:29:01] gone are the

[00:29:02] days of just

[00:29:02] the old boy

[00:29:03] network.

[00:29:03] It does seem

[00:29:04] to be,

[00:29:04] from what I've

[00:29:05] seen of the

[00:29:05] advertising

[00:29:06] things,

[00:29:06] that MI5,

[00:29:08] MI6,

[00:29:08] even GCHQ,

[00:29:09] both want

[00:29:10] neurodiverse

[00:29:11] people.

[00:29:11] They want

[00:29:11] people from

[00:29:12] all walks

[00:29:12] of life.

[00:29:13] And so

[00:29:14] it's very

[00:29:15] good.

[00:29:16] Yeah.

[00:29:17] Well,

[00:29:18] one interesting

[00:29:19] question I'd

[00:29:19] like to ask

[00:29:20] you as well

[00:29:20] is what do

[00:29:20] you think the

[00:29:21] future holds

[00:29:22] for the

[00:29:22] intelligence

[00:29:22] services?

[00:29:23] Because we're

[00:29:23] kind of in

[00:29:23] this age of

[00:29:24] open source

[00:29:25] intelligence

[00:29:25] now,

[00:29:26] made famous

[00:29:27] obviously by

[00:29:27] Bellingcat.

[00:29:28] And also we

[00:29:29] live in the

[00:29:29] world of

[00:29:30] AI and

[00:29:31] social media,

[00:29:33] et cetera.

[00:29:33] And so we'll

[00:29:33] just talk about

[00:29:34] counterintelligence

[00:29:35] from the other

[00:29:35] side.

[00:29:35] It's very easy

[00:29:36] now to get

[00:29:36] people's data.

[00:29:38] So what do

[00:29:39] you think is

[00:29:39] the future

[00:29:40] for the

[00:29:40] intelligence

[00:29:40] services in

[00:29:41] this new

[00:29:41] age that

[00:29:42] we're kind

[00:29:42] of in?

[00:29:42] Becoming

[00:29:43] smarter using

[00:29:44] AI than

[00:29:45] the opposition.

[00:29:47] So using

[00:29:48] their advantage

[00:29:49] against them

[00:29:49] basically.

[00:29:51] Absolutely.

[00:29:51] I mean,

[00:29:52] the future

[00:29:52] is going

[00:29:53] to be

[00:29:54] GCHQ

[00:29:55] much more

[00:29:56] involved.

[00:29:57] It's going

[00:29:58] to be

[00:30:00] intelligence

[00:30:00] agents

[00:30:01] or many

[00:30:02] of them

[00:30:03] that are

[00:30:04] well acquainted

[00:30:05] with AI

[00:30:05] and also

[00:30:07] with the

[00:30:10] problems

[00:30:10] posed by

[00:30:11] fake news

[00:30:12] which is

[00:30:13] going to

[00:30:13] just increase.

[00:30:15] But otherwise

[00:30:16] the same

[00:30:17] old,

[00:30:18] same old

[00:30:18] will continue.

[00:30:19] It always

[00:30:20] has.

[00:30:21] Your

[00:30:21] espionage

[00:30:22] agents

[00:30:23] will use

[00:30:24] the same

[00:30:24] tricks

[00:30:25] that they've

[00:30:26] always been

[00:30:26] using.

[00:30:27] Dead letter

[00:30:28] boxes even,

[00:30:30] squirting

[00:30:30] information

[00:30:31] across the

[00:30:32] airwaves

[00:30:33] at high

[00:30:34] speed.

[00:30:35] All those

[00:30:36] sort of

[00:30:36] things will

[00:30:36] just continue

[00:30:37] and the

[00:30:37] agencies

[00:30:38] will continue

[00:30:39] with them.

[00:30:40] There was

[00:30:40] a recent

[00:30:41] talk where

[00:30:44] the former

[00:30:44] heads of

[00:30:45] MI5,

[00:30:46] MI6 and

[00:30:47] GCHQ

[00:30:47] were together

[00:30:48] and I

[00:30:48] think it

[00:30:49] was,

[00:30:49] I'm trying

[00:30:49] to remember

[00:30:50] which head

[00:30:50] it was

[00:30:51] now,

[00:30:51] but they

[00:30:51] talked about

[00:30:52] that potentially

[00:30:53] there might

[00:30:53] be,

[00:30:54] I mean this

[00:30:54] gets talked

[00:30:55] about a lot,

[00:30:55] but there

[00:30:55] might be

[00:30:56] a merging

[00:30:57] of the

[00:30:58] services

[00:30:59] to help

[00:31:00] with better

[00:31:00] integration.

[00:31:01] I don't

[00:31:01] know if

[00:31:02] you have

[00:31:02] any thoughts

[00:31:03] on that

[00:31:03] at all,

[00:31:04] whether that's

[00:31:05] a viable

[00:31:06] prospect or

[00:31:06] be a good

[00:31:07] idea.

[00:31:07] My own

[00:31:08] personal view

[00:31:08] has always

[00:31:09] been that

[00:31:09] they should

[00:31:10] be merged

[00:31:12] and leaving

[00:31:15] the National

[00:31:15] Criminal

[00:31:16] Intelligence

[00:31:16] Service out

[00:31:18] there doing,

[00:31:18] or National

[00:31:19] Crime Agency

[00:31:20] rather,

[00:31:21] out there

[00:31:22] doing that

[00:31:23] in conjunction

[00:31:24] with both

[00:31:25] agencies.

[00:31:27] whether that

[00:31:28] is

[00:31:28] administratively

[00:31:29] good or

[00:31:30] not,

[00:31:30] I don't

[00:31:30] know.

[00:31:31] I think

[00:31:31] in many

[00:31:32] ways it

[00:31:33] could be

[00:31:33] a cost

[00:31:34] saver.

[00:31:36] And

[00:31:39] the other

[00:31:41] argument is

[00:31:41] that having

[00:31:42] the two

[00:31:42] aspects

[00:31:44] looking at

[00:31:44] the same

[00:31:45] problem is

[00:31:45] also very,

[00:31:46] very useful.

[00:31:48] So it's

[00:31:49] really a

[00:31:50] question that

[00:31:51] I think has

[00:31:51] to be

[00:31:52] continually

[00:31:52] considered in

[00:31:53] terms of

[00:31:54] budget.

[00:31:55] and

[00:31:55] administration,

[00:31:57] human

[00:31:57] resources.

[00:31:59] I don't

[00:32:00] think there's

[00:32:01] a very

[00:32:02] simple answer

[00:32:03] unless one's

[00:32:03] actually involved

[00:32:04] at the time.

[00:32:05] So I couldn't

[00:32:05] go any

[00:32:06] further than

[00:32:06] that,

[00:32:07] except to

[00:32:07] say that

[00:32:07] was my

[00:32:08] own private

[00:32:08] opinion

[00:32:09] earlier when

[00:32:10] I was in

[00:32:10] the job.

[00:32:11] Let's take

[00:32:12] a quick

[00:32:12] break and

[00:32:13] we'll be

[00:32:13] right back.

[00:32:29] So what

[00:32:30] has drawn

[00:32:32] you to

[00:32:32] become a

[00:32:32] novelist

[00:32:33] and what

[00:32:33] drew you

[00:32:34] to

[00:32:34] storytelling?

[00:32:36] Yes,

[00:32:36] after I

[00:32:37] left the

[00:32:37] agencies,

[00:32:38] I went to

[00:32:38] the States

[00:32:39] for a

[00:32:39] year.

[00:32:40] I was

[00:32:41] discussing

[00:32:42] the future

[00:32:43] of terrorism

[00:32:43] and money

[00:32:44] laundering

[00:32:44] actually with

[00:32:45] the Americans

[00:32:46] but I also

[00:32:48] did a

[00:32:49] semester at

[00:32:50] university

[00:32:51] talking about

[00:32:52] these issues

[00:32:53] to the

[00:32:54] master students

[00:32:55] there which

[00:32:55] was absolutely

[00:32:56] fascinating,

[00:32:57] terrifying actually

[00:32:58] because they're

[00:32:58] all so bright.

[00:33:00] Yes,

[00:33:01] I can imagine.

[00:33:04] And then I

[00:33:07] was asked to

[00:33:07] do some

[00:33:09] traveling around

[00:33:10] the world

[00:33:10] advising governments

[00:33:12] on countering

[00:33:13] money laundering

[00:33:14] particularly against

[00:33:15] terrorist money

[00:33:16] laundering and

[00:33:17] organized crime

[00:33:17] money laundering.

[00:33:18] There's a

[00:33:19] background I've

[00:33:19] been involved in

[00:33:20] all my life

[00:33:21] really one way

[00:33:22] or another

[00:33:22] and that

[00:33:25] took me to

[00:33:26] a lot of

[00:33:26] exotic places

[00:33:27] as you can

[00:33:28] imagine and

[00:33:29] also led

[00:33:31] one to

[00:33:33] even greater

[00:33:34] understanding of

[00:33:35] organized crime

[00:33:38] and the

[00:33:39] sort of

[00:33:40] complete

[00:33:40] utter

[00:33:41] lack of

[00:33:42] any safety

[00:33:43] net that they

[00:33:43] have.

[00:33:44] I mean they

[00:33:45] are prepared

[00:33:46] to do

[00:33:47] anything

[00:33:47] to achieve

[00:33:49] their ends

[00:33:50] and that

[00:33:51] as I say

[00:33:53] is not only

[00:33:53] the use of

[00:33:54] very very high

[00:33:55] level professionals

[00:33:56] who are

[00:33:57] perfectly

[00:33:57] prepared to

[00:33:58] take the

[00:33:58] money but

[00:33:59] also that

[00:34:00] they would

[00:34:00] use these

[00:34:02] lawyers and

[00:34:03] accountants and

[00:34:04] high level

[00:34:04] professionals to

[00:34:05] help them out

[00:34:06] and to advise

[00:34:07] them but also

[00:34:09] they would have

[00:34:10] no hesitation

[00:34:10] in using

[00:34:11] bribery,

[00:34:12] corruption,

[00:34:13] extortion

[00:34:14] and threats,

[00:34:16] torture and

[00:34:17] quite happily

[00:34:19] murder people

[00:34:20] who got in

[00:34:21] their way

[00:34:22] and there

[00:34:23] was no safety

[00:34:23] net for them

[00:34:24] at all and

[00:34:25] still isn't.

[00:34:26] it's a very

[00:34:26] very murky

[00:34:28] and incredibly

[00:34:28] dangerous world

[00:34:29] when one thinks

[00:34:31] about terrorism

[00:34:31] as being

[00:34:32] dangerous

[00:34:33] organized crime

[00:34:34] is far more

[00:34:35] dangerous

[00:34:36] and I think

[00:34:37] for the public

[00:34:38] it's even

[00:34:38] more dangerous

[00:34:39] because it

[00:34:40] lurks much

[00:34:41] more below

[00:34:42] the surface

[00:34:43] than

[00:34:43] terrorism.

[00:34:45] Terrorism is

[00:34:46] very visible

[00:34:48] when it

[00:34:48] occurs.

[00:34:49] Organized crime

[00:34:51] isn't.

[00:34:52] we see it

[00:34:53] from time

[00:34:54] to time

[00:34:55] when we

[00:34:55] see people

[00:34:56] dying in

[00:34:57] dinghies

[00:34:58] crossing the

[00:34:58] channel.

[00:34:59] That's

[00:34:59] organized crime

[00:35:00] that is

[00:35:01] pushing these

[00:35:03] people across.

[00:35:04] Nothing less,

[00:35:05] nothing more.

[00:35:06] And they're

[00:35:06] quite happy for

[00:35:07] these people to

[00:35:08] die having

[00:35:08] taken their

[00:35:09] money.

[00:35:09] We don't

[00:35:10] see people

[00:35:12] who have

[00:35:12] crossed from

[00:35:13] the places

[00:35:14] they started

[00:35:15] from,

[00:35:15] Somalia,

[00:35:17] African

[00:35:17] countries,

[00:35:19] Far Eastern

[00:35:20] countries,

[00:35:21] who have

[00:35:22] died on

[00:35:22] the way,

[00:35:23] been tortured

[00:35:24] or shoveled

[00:35:25] off or their

[00:35:25] money taken

[00:35:26] and they've

[00:35:27] just been

[00:35:27] cast on

[00:35:27] one side.

[00:35:28] And the

[00:35:29] people who

[00:35:29] run this

[00:35:30] are organized

[00:35:31] criminals.

[00:35:33] So,

[00:35:35] we were,

[00:35:36] Carrie and

[00:35:37] I were

[00:35:37] traveling doing

[00:35:38] this together,

[00:35:39] my wife,

[00:35:39] we'd been

[00:35:40] married many

[00:35:41] years.

[00:35:42] She helps me

[00:35:42] write actually,

[00:35:43] which is

[00:35:43] brilliant.

[00:35:44] We write

[00:35:44] together.

[00:35:45] Brilliant.

[00:35:46] Pencils at

[00:35:46] dawn.

[00:35:47] Excellent.

[00:35:48] That's

[00:35:48] wonderful.

[00:35:49] So,

[00:35:50] we were

[00:35:51] traveling so

[00:35:52] much that

[00:35:53] we were

[00:35:54] wasting hours

[00:35:55] at airports

[00:35:55] and we

[00:35:56] thought,

[00:35:56] what are we

[00:35:56] going to

[00:35:57] do with

[00:35:57] this?

[00:35:58] And it

[00:35:59] occurred to

[00:36:00] us that

[00:36:00] really a

[00:36:01] really good

[00:36:02] base plate

[00:36:03] would be

[00:36:03] dealing with

[00:36:04] terrorism and

[00:36:05] organized crime

[00:36:05] and the

[00:36:06] real dirt

[00:36:08] that people

[00:36:08] don't see

[00:36:09] going on.

[00:36:11] So,

[00:36:12] that led

[00:36:14] to us

[00:36:14] moving into

[00:36:16] writing.

[00:36:16] Excellent.

[00:36:17] The world

[00:36:18] of

[00:36:18] capture,

[00:36:18] funnily

[00:36:19] enough,

[00:36:19] came about

[00:36:20] because my

[00:36:22] 13-year-old

[00:36:23] granddaughter

[00:36:25] asked me

[00:36:26] one day to

[00:36:27] come down to

[00:36:27] her school

[00:36:28] and talk

[00:36:28] about spies

[00:36:29] because they

[00:36:30] had been

[00:36:30] doing James

[00:36:31] Bond for

[00:36:32] an English

[00:36:33] essay.

[00:36:34] I go down

[00:36:35] to the

[00:36:36] school and

[00:36:36] talk to

[00:36:36] them.

[00:36:37] And obviously

[00:36:38] at a

[00:36:39] girls'

[00:36:39] school,

[00:36:39] it was

[00:36:40] mixed,

[00:36:40] but for

[00:36:41] girls,

[00:36:41] one's

[00:36:42] talking about

[00:36:42] the incredible

[00:36:43] women in

[00:36:44] MI5 and

[00:36:45] MI6,

[00:36:46] what they

[00:36:47] do.

[00:36:48] And the

[00:36:50] sort of

[00:36:50] almost 50-50

[00:36:52] split between

[00:36:53] men and

[00:36:54] women in

[00:36:54] the agencies.

[00:36:56] And it

[00:36:58] suddenly occurred

[00:36:59] to me,

[00:36:59] of course,

[00:37:00] that one

[00:37:00] could combine

[00:37:02] a female

[00:37:03] agent

[00:37:05] working in

[00:37:06] this awful,

[00:37:08] dangerous area

[00:37:09] of organized

[00:37:10] crime and

[00:37:11] terrorism,

[00:37:11] going down

[00:37:12] into the

[00:37:13] tunnels and

[00:37:13] trying to

[00:37:15] hunt down

[00:37:16] these people.

[00:37:17] And that

[00:37:18] took me to

[00:37:19] another thought,

[00:37:20] which was

[00:37:21] after the

[00:37:22] end of the

[00:37:23] Cold War,

[00:37:24] there was

[00:37:25] quite a lot

[00:37:26] of cooperation

[00:37:26] between Russia

[00:37:27] and the

[00:37:28] West.

[00:37:30] And I

[00:37:31] thought,

[00:37:31] well,

[00:37:31] one thing

[00:37:32] we haven't

[00:37:32] actually seen

[00:37:33] in espionage

[00:37:34] novels is

[00:37:36] an international

[00:37:38] organization,

[00:37:40] including

[00:37:41] Russia and

[00:37:41] the United

[00:37:42] States and

[00:37:43] the UK.

[00:37:45] So I

[00:37:46] thought,

[00:37:46] right,

[00:37:46] well,

[00:37:47] let's combine

[00:37:47] them all

[00:37:47] together.

[00:37:49] So Katya,

[00:37:50] who is

[00:37:51] the female

[00:37:53] agent of

[00:37:54] this

[00:37:55] international

[00:37:55] agency,

[00:37:56] is Russian,

[00:37:58] which gave

[00:37:58] us another

[00:37:59] sort of

[00:37:59] dimension.

[00:38:01] How does

[00:38:01] a Russian

[00:38:02] operate in

[00:38:03] this dreadful

[00:38:04] world?

[00:38:05] How much

[00:38:05] does she

[00:38:06] know about

[00:38:07] it?

[00:38:08] And so

[00:38:09] we made

[00:38:11] up Katya.

[00:38:13] She's

[00:38:14] conflicted.

[00:38:15] She was

[00:38:16] brought up

[00:38:17] just during

[00:38:19] the end of

[00:38:19] the communist

[00:38:20] era by

[00:38:22] a KGB

[00:38:23] colonel

[00:38:24] father,

[00:38:25] who was

[00:38:26] absolutely

[00:38:27] brutal.

[00:38:27] And his

[00:38:28] one thing in

[00:38:29] his world

[00:38:29] was that

[00:38:30] he never

[00:38:30] had a

[00:38:31] son,

[00:38:31] and he

[00:38:31] was determined

[00:38:32] to push

[00:38:32] his daughter

[00:38:33] into the

[00:38:35] intelligence

[00:38:35] agencies in

[00:38:36] Russia.

[00:38:37] And on

[00:38:38] the other

[00:38:38] hand,

[00:38:39] she had a

[00:38:40] mother who

[00:38:40] was a

[00:38:40] prima

[00:38:41] ballerina,

[00:38:42] who left

[00:38:43] her brutal

[00:38:43] husband and

[00:38:44] sort of

[00:38:44] disappeared

[00:38:45] out of

[00:38:45] her life.

[00:38:46] But she

[00:38:47] always,

[00:38:48] on the one

[00:38:49] hand,

[00:38:50] she was

[00:38:50] shoveled

[00:38:51] into this

[00:38:51] world of

[00:38:52] intelligence,

[00:38:53] Katya,

[00:38:54] that she

[00:38:55] actually

[00:38:56] enjoys,

[00:38:59] despite her

[00:39:00] father,

[00:39:01] her,

[00:39:02] or perhaps

[00:39:02] because of

[00:39:03] him.

[00:39:03] And on

[00:39:04] the other

[00:39:04] hand,

[00:39:05] she remembers

[00:39:06] the glamour

[00:39:07] of her

[00:39:07] mother,

[00:39:08] and she's

[00:39:09] torn between

[00:39:10] the two.

[00:39:11] She would

[00:39:11] love that

[00:39:11] glamorous life,

[00:39:12] but on the

[00:39:13] other hand,

[00:39:13] she also

[00:39:14] enjoys the

[00:39:15] life of

[00:39:16] being a

[00:39:16] spy.

[00:39:17] So

[00:39:17] constantly,

[00:39:18] as she

[00:39:18] goes down

[00:39:19] through these

[00:39:20] channels and

[00:39:21] tunnels of

[00:39:22] secrecy,

[00:39:23] dealing with

[00:39:24] these

[00:39:25] criminals,

[00:39:26] she sees

[00:39:26] both sides,

[00:39:28] and she

[00:39:28] can get

[00:39:28] tempted by

[00:39:30] the glamour.

[00:39:32] wow,

[00:39:32] yeah,

[00:39:33] Yeah,

[00:39:35] no,

[00:39:35] fantastic,

[00:39:36] fantastic.

[00:39:38] Now,

[00:39:38] I was just

[00:39:38] going to

[00:39:38] ask you a

[00:39:39] little bit

[00:39:39] about some

[00:39:39] of the

[00:39:40] settings of

[00:39:41] your novels,

[00:39:42] because you've

[00:39:42] got Libya and

[00:39:43] Berlin,

[00:39:44] and I was

[00:39:44] wondering why

[00:39:44] you sort of,

[00:39:45] so the first

[00:39:45] novel,

[00:39:46] I think,

[00:39:46] if I remember

[00:39:47] correctly,

[00:39:47] said Libya,

[00:39:48] whilst the

[00:39:48] second one

[00:39:48] is in

[00:39:48] Berlin,

[00:39:49] and I was

[00:39:50] wondering

[00:39:50] if there

[00:39:50] were any

[00:39:51] personal

[00:39:51] connections or

[00:39:52] interests

[00:39:52] that led you

[00:39:53] to those

[00:39:54] locations?

[00:39:55] No,

[00:39:55] Libya I

[00:39:56] chose because

[00:39:57] one thing

[00:39:58] that is

[00:39:59] fascinating to

[00:40:00] anyone who's

[00:40:00] dealt in

[00:40:01] the world

[00:40:01] of terrorism

[00:40:03] and money

[00:40:03] laundering is

[00:40:04] what happened

[00:40:05] to Gaddafi's

[00:40:07] private fortune?

[00:40:09] Yeah,

[00:40:09] good question.

[00:40:10] Yeah,

[00:40:10] because he's

[00:40:10] got a mansion

[00:40:11] that's abandoned

[00:40:11] here in the

[00:40:12] UK,

[00:40:12] I think,

[00:40:13] isn't it?

[00:40:16] So we

[00:40:18] imagined that

[00:40:19] having been

[00:40:19] stolen by

[00:40:20] his private

[00:40:21] money

[00:40:21] launderer,

[00:40:23] who's

[00:40:24] guarded by

[00:40:24] terrorists.

[00:40:25] So Kaccha has

[00:40:27] to go into

[00:40:27] that world,

[00:40:28] which is pretty

[00:40:28] terrifying,

[00:40:29] I must say,

[00:40:31] to try and

[00:40:32] discover where

[00:40:33] this money

[00:40:33] went to.

[00:40:40] world where

[00:40:42] she's pretty

[00:40:43] much oppressed

[00:40:43] trying to

[00:40:44] get there.

[00:40:45] Berlin is

[00:40:46] in fact

[00:40:48] the book

[00:40:50] that's going

[00:40:51] to follow on

[00:40:51] from the one

[00:40:52] we've just

[00:40:52] finished.

[00:40:54] But that was

[00:40:55] because I

[00:40:56] spent three

[00:40:57] years in

[00:40:57] Berlin during

[00:40:59] the Cold

[00:40:59] War,

[00:41:00] and it's

[00:41:01] set in

[00:41:01] the Cold

[00:41:02] War,

[00:41:04] that particular

[00:41:05] novel.

[00:41:06] We've got the

[00:41:06] outline of it.

[00:41:08] It's a very

[00:41:09] particularly

[00:41:10] interesting time

[00:41:12] because people

[00:41:14] were still being

[00:41:15] killed coming

[00:41:16] across the

[00:41:16] wall at that

[00:41:17] time in the

[00:41:18] late 70s.

[00:41:21] And the

[00:41:21] Russians were

[00:41:22] still creating

[00:41:23] problems in

[00:41:24] Berlin to

[00:41:26] disguise what

[00:41:27] else they were

[00:41:27] doing elsewhere

[00:41:28] in the world.

[00:41:29] So it was

[00:41:30] quite a tense

[00:41:31] time.

[00:41:33] So Berlin is

[00:41:35] tense in

[00:41:36] terms of a

[00:41:38] real espionage

[00:41:39] story, in

[00:41:39] fact.

[00:41:41] The novel

[00:41:42] we've just

[00:41:43] finished,

[00:41:43] the novel

[00:41:44] that we've,

[00:41:47] the second

[00:41:48] novel we

[00:41:49] did was

[00:41:50] The Informer,

[00:41:51] which Catcher

[00:41:53] has to

[00:41:53] infiltrate a

[00:41:55] Russian mafia

[00:41:57] on the Black

[00:41:57] Sea,

[00:41:58] that's

[00:41:59] trafficking

[00:42:00] girls and

[00:42:01] also laundering

[00:42:03] the proceeds of

[00:42:04] their gambling

[00:42:05] casino into

[00:42:06] China.

[00:42:07] So there are

[00:42:08] two elements

[00:42:09] here.

[00:42:09] You've got the

[00:42:10] Russian mafia

[00:42:11] and you've got

[00:42:11] the Chinese

[00:42:12] tongs,

[00:42:13] which is

[00:42:14] worse,

[00:42:14] is pretty

[00:42:15] difficult to

[00:42:16] imagine,

[00:42:16] actually.

[00:42:16] so one's

[00:42:18] entering a

[00:42:19] very,

[00:42:20] very seedy

[00:42:21] and dangerous

[00:42:22] world of

[00:42:22] trafficking

[00:42:24] women and

[00:42:25] children.

[00:42:27] And also

[00:42:28] high stakes

[00:42:29] gambling,

[00:42:29] which in

[00:42:30] itself can be

[00:42:30] pretty seedy

[00:42:31] if you go to

[00:42:33] the wrong

[00:42:33] casinos.

[00:42:34] movies and

[00:42:38] movies and

[00:42:41] Because there's a

[00:42:41] lot of inbuilt

[00:42:42] tension,

[00:42:43] but it's

[00:42:43] interesting as

[00:42:44] well because

[00:42:44] obviously there's

[00:42:44] this real world

[00:42:45] element to it,

[00:42:46] which is I think

[00:42:48] what makes them

[00:42:48] so interesting.

[00:42:49] And for me,

[00:42:51] my favourite

[00:42:51] spy fiction always

[00:42:52] has its sort of

[00:42:53] toe in reality

[00:42:54] in some place.

[00:42:55] And so it's

[00:42:56] good that your

[00:42:56] novels have your

[00:42:57] sort of background

[00:42:58] to steer them,

[00:42:59] really.

[00:43:00] Well,

[00:43:00] it's really useful,

[00:43:01] the background.

[00:43:02] As I think with

[00:43:03] all spy novelists,

[00:43:06] the stories are

[00:43:07] imaginary,

[00:43:09] but they're based

[00:43:10] in some knowledge

[00:43:10] of what went

[00:43:12] on.

[00:43:13] Yeah.

[00:43:13] You know.

[00:43:14] Can you talk to us

[00:43:15] a little bit about

[00:43:15] your,

[00:43:16] what inspiration

[00:43:17] you've taken maybe

[00:43:18] from other

[00:43:19] fiction?

[00:43:19] Because we talked

[00:43:19] a little bit about

[00:43:20] your real world

[00:43:20] experience.

[00:43:21] Is there anything,

[00:43:22] any other fiction

[00:43:23] that sort of

[00:43:23] inspired you as a

[00:43:24] novelist?

[00:43:25] No,

[00:43:25] I haven't.

[00:43:26] I sort of kept

[00:43:27] away from it

[00:43:28] because I was

[00:43:29] trying to do

[00:43:29] something different

[00:43:30] and I didn't

[00:43:31] want to be

[00:43:32] influenced.

[00:43:33] And I mean,

[00:43:33] my goodness,

[00:43:34] I mean,

[00:43:34] couldn't you be

[00:43:34] influenced by

[00:43:35] Mick Herron?

[00:43:36] I mean,

[00:43:36] it's just fantastic.

[00:43:37] yeah.

[00:43:38] So,

[00:43:42] and therefore I

[00:43:42] kept away from it.

[00:43:44] My reading is,

[00:43:47] I suppose my,

[00:43:48] my,

[00:43:48] my reading,

[00:43:49] my favorite

[00:43:49] authors,

[00:43:51] curious enough,

[00:43:52] were Mickey

[00:43:52] Spillane,

[00:43:53] which my

[00:43:54] godfather introduced

[00:43:56] me to at the age

[00:43:57] of 13.

[00:43:58] Oh,

[00:43:58] brilliant.

[00:43:58] He was a doctor.

[00:43:59] He said,

[00:43:59] it's time you read

[00:44:00] Mickey Spillane.

[00:44:02] You need

[00:44:03] educating.

[00:44:04] Yes.

[00:44:07] And he also,

[00:44:09] on the other side

[00:44:10] of the coin,

[00:44:11] introduced me to

[00:44:12] Somerset Maugham.

[00:44:14] And both of those

[00:44:16] authors,

[00:44:17] I really go for

[00:44:19] because of the

[00:44:20] characters.

[00:44:21] They can sketch a

[00:44:22] character in,

[00:44:23] in two or three

[00:44:24] sentences,

[00:44:25] absolutely brilliantly.

[00:44:26] and they create

[00:44:28] moods which

[00:44:30] are just

[00:44:31] superb to read.

[00:44:33] Yeah.

[00:44:34] And their stories

[00:44:35] are fascinating,

[00:44:36] of course.

[00:44:37] I mean,

[00:44:37] really intricate,

[00:44:38] very interesting.

[00:44:39] And I mean,

[00:44:40] I know Mickey Spillane

[00:44:41] sort of seen as a

[00:44:42] misogynist thug,

[00:44:44] but

[00:44:45] leaving that

[00:44:46] on one side,

[00:44:47] his storytelling

[00:44:49] is magnificent.

[00:44:50] Yeah.

[00:44:51] Well,

[00:44:51] Somerset Maugham in

[00:44:52] particular,

[00:44:52] he wrote Ash,

[00:44:53] Ashden or Ashden?

[00:44:54] Yes,

[00:44:55] yes,

[00:44:55] absolutely.

[00:44:56] He was a spy,

[00:44:57] yeah.

[00:44:57] Yeah,

[00:44:58] such a great book.

[00:44:59] And allegedly,

[00:44:59] there are some

[00:45:00] chapters that had

[00:45:01] to be destroyed

[00:45:02] because they

[00:45:03] kind of crossed

[00:45:03] over.

[00:45:04] Yeah.

[00:45:05] I don't know if

[00:45:05] you've ever been

[00:45:06] privy to those

[00:45:07] chapters in the

[00:45:08] intelligence.

[00:45:08] That's absolutely

[00:45:09] right,

[00:45:09] yeah.

[00:45:09] Well,

[00:45:10] I mean,

[00:45:10] I have to pass

[00:45:11] mine across

[00:45:12] the agencies,

[00:45:13] you know,

[00:45:14] they have to

[00:45:15] agree on.

[00:45:16] Yeah.

[00:45:17] How does that

[00:45:17] work over here?

[00:45:18] Because in the

[00:45:18] States,

[00:45:19] they have a

[00:45:20] department,

[00:45:20] don't they,

[00:45:21] that are

[00:45:21] specifically for

[00:45:22] former intelligence

[00:45:23] officers who

[00:45:23] want to write

[00:45:25] fiction or

[00:45:25] non-fiction.

[00:45:27] So is there a

[00:45:27] process in the

[00:45:28] UK of how that

[00:45:29] sort of works?

[00:45:29] Yes,

[00:45:29] they're far more

[00:45:30] open in the

[00:45:30] States about

[00:45:31] this.

[00:45:32] I mean,

[00:45:32] they have an

[00:45:32] organisation called

[00:45:34] the American

[00:45:36] Intelligence

[00:45:37] Organisation

[00:45:38] for officers

[00:45:39] in the

[00:45:40] intelligence

[00:45:41] agencies,

[00:45:42] which is

[00:45:42] wide open.

[00:45:43] It's got its

[00:45:44] own website.

[00:45:46] And they

[00:45:47] actually advertise

[00:45:48] for stories.

[00:45:50] Yeah.

[00:45:52] Over here,

[00:45:55] the draft is

[00:45:56] passed over to

[00:45:57] the agency and

[00:45:59] they come back

[00:46:00] and say,

[00:46:01] yes.

[00:46:02] I mean,

[00:46:02] I haven't had

[00:46:03] any trouble so

[00:46:04] far with them,

[00:46:05] but quite right

[00:46:06] too,

[00:46:06] because there's

[00:46:07] no point in

[00:46:10] writing something

[00:46:11] that might cut

[00:46:11] across there.

[00:46:13] Very important.

[00:46:15] Yeah,

[00:46:15] indeed,

[00:46:16] indeed.

[00:46:16] Well,

[00:46:17] we've sort of

[00:46:17] touched upon

[00:46:18] this a little

[00:46:18] bit.

[00:46:18] British

[00:46:18] espionage

[00:46:19] obviously has

[00:46:19] featured heavily

[00:46:20] in fiction and

[00:46:21] it's shaped many

[00:46:21] people's

[00:46:22] understanding of

[00:46:22] that world.

[00:46:23] We've had

[00:46:24] Le Carre,

[00:46:25] Graham Greene,

[00:46:25] James Bond

[00:46:26] on TV.

[00:46:27] You've had the

[00:46:28] Sandbaggers,

[00:46:29] Spooks,

[00:46:29] and now Slow

[00:46:30] Horses from

[00:46:30] Mick Heron.

[00:46:32] What are your

[00:46:32] thoughts on how

[00:46:33] British intelligence

[00:46:34] has been

[00:46:35] portrayed in

[00:46:36] popular fiction

[00:46:37] and how does

[00:46:37] it stack up

[00:46:38] with your

[00:46:38] experiences of

[00:46:39] that world?

[00:46:40] Well,

[00:46:40] the fiction you

[00:46:41] just mentioned

[00:46:42] is brilliant.

[00:46:43] I mean,

[00:46:43] you cannot

[00:46:44] read it.

[00:46:45] It's wonderful.

[00:46:46] As I told

[00:46:47] earlier,

[00:46:47] Mick Heron

[00:46:48] is magic.

[00:46:51] I think if

[00:46:54] one was to

[00:46:55] write about

[00:46:57] how actually

[00:46:58] the agencies

[00:46:59] work,

[00:47:02] one has to

[00:47:04] have the

[00:47:04] imagination to

[00:47:05] sort of create

[00:47:05] the stories

[00:47:06] because,

[00:47:08] as I said

[00:47:10] much earlier,

[00:47:13] intelligence

[00:47:13] officers do

[00:47:14] not operate

[00:47:15] on their

[00:47:16] own.

[00:47:16] I mean,

[00:47:17] they're out

[00:47:17] there on

[00:47:18] their own.

[00:47:19] But they

[00:47:20] have been

[00:47:20] very well

[00:47:21] briefed before

[00:47:22] they go

[00:47:22] out.

[00:47:23] The operations

[00:47:23] have been

[00:47:24] planned.

[00:47:25] Things can

[00:47:25] go wrong

[00:47:26] and that's

[00:47:26] when they

[00:47:27] have to

[00:47:27] work very

[00:47:30] quickly and

[00:47:30] that's where

[00:47:31] their lateral

[00:47:32] thinking and

[00:47:32] integrity and

[00:47:33] courage comes

[00:47:34] in.

[00:47:36] But on the

[00:47:37] whole,

[00:47:38] it can be

[00:47:40] quite a

[00:47:40] slow process.

[00:47:42] I mean,

[00:47:43] investigating a

[00:47:44] terrorist

[00:47:44] organisation can

[00:47:45] take two or

[00:47:47] three years.

[00:47:48] to be able

[00:47:49] to compile

[00:47:49] all the

[00:47:50] information

[00:47:50] you want.

[00:47:55] You can

[00:47:56] disrupt,

[00:47:57] but there

[00:47:57] again,

[00:47:58] if you

[00:47:58] disrupt

[00:47:58] one thing,

[00:47:59] you might

[00:47:59] warn

[00:48:00] people that

[00:48:02] are in the

[00:48:04] terrorist

[00:48:05] organisation that

[00:48:06] some things are.

[00:48:07] So it all has

[00:48:08] to be done

[00:48:08] very, very

[00:48:09] carefully,

[00:48:10] very carefully

[00:48:11] indeed.

[00:48:13] There's a

[00:48:14] board of

[00:48:14] directors.

[00:48:15] One thing

[00:48:18] that I never

[00:48:18] found in

[00:48:19] the agencies

[00:48:20] was this

[00:48:21] sort of

[00:48:22] internecine

[00:48:22] warfare between

[00:48:23] the individuals.

[00:48:26] It is so

[00:48:28] much a team.

[00:48:31] The work

[00:48:32] is very

[00:48:33] intense.

[00:48:35] And in

[00:48:35] terrorism,

[00:48:36] organised

[00:48:36] crime,

[00:48:37] it can be

[00:48:38] not only

[00:48:39] slow burning,

[00:48:40] but it can

[00:48:41] be very,

[00:48:42] very fast

[00:48:42] developing.

[00:48:43] People

[00:48:44] don't have

[00:48:45] the time

[00:48:45] to spend

[00:48:47] sort of

[00:48:48] backbiting

[00:48:49] their fellow

[00:48:50] compadres.

[00:48:51] And if you

[00:48:52] can imagine,

[00:48:52] if you're in

[00:48:53] a team

[00:48:53] trying to

[00:48:54] work towards

[00:48:55] a common

[00:48:55] goal of

[00:48:59] uncovering

[00:48:59] an organisation

[00:49:00] as dangerous

[00:49:01] and as

[00:49:02] lethal as

[00:49:03] an organised

[00:49:04] crime organisation

[00:49:05] or a

[00:49:05] terrorism

[00:49:05] organisation,

[00:49:06] let's face

[00:49:07] it,

[00:49:08] backbiting

[00:49:08] just can't

[00:49:09] enter into

[00:49:09] it.

[00:49:10] You're

[00:49:10] losing your

[00:49:11] grip.

[00:49:12] So no.

[00:49:14] But there

[00:49:14] again,

[00:49:15] that's an

[00:49:15] area in

[00:49:18] fiction,

[00:49:19] spy fiction,

[00:49:20] that has been

[00:49:20] developed quite

[00:49:21] considerably.

[00:49:22] And it's

[00:49:23] great because

[00:49:24] it makes

[00:49:25] such a good

[00:49:26] story.

[00:49:26] You can't

[00:49:27] get away

[00:49:28] from it.

[00:49:28] But I

[00:49:29] think that's

[00:49:30] the one

[00:49:30] area I

[00:49:30] would say

[00:49:31] is very

[00:49:32] different.

[00:49:34] If that all

[00:49:34] makes sense.

[00:49:35] It does.

[00:49:36] Have you ever

[00:49:36] seen a show

[00:49:36] called,

[00:49:37] well there's

[00:49:37] two shows,

[00:49:38] obviously it's

[00:49:38] The Sandbag,

[00:49:39] which I

[00:49:39] mentioned earlier,

[00:49:40] which is a

[00:49:40] 70s spy show,

[00:49:42] which some

[00:49:42] people have

[00:49:43] claimed is

[00:49:43] one of the

[00:49:44] most accurate

[00:49:44] portrayals of

[00:49:45] intelligence.

[00:49:46] And then

[00:49:47] there's another

[00:49:47] show called

[00:49:48] Le Bureau,

[00:49:48] which is a

[00:49:49] French show.

[00:49:49] I don't

[00:49:50] know if

[00:49:50] you've seen

[00:49:50] any of

[00:49:50] those,

[00:49:51] because Le

[00:49:51] Bureau is

[00:49:51] really good.

[00:49:53] I haven't

[00:49:53] seen it,

[00:49:54] no.

[00:49:55] Yes, I've

[00:49:55] heard it's

[00:49:56] brilliant.

[00:49:56] Yes, I haven't

[00:49:57] got to it yet.

[00:49:58] And out of the

[00:49:58] spy fiction I've

[00:49:59] seen, those

[00:49:59] have been more

[00:50:00] my favourite,

[00:50:01] just because I'm

[00:50:01] this outsider

[00:50:02] trying to get

[00:50:03] this insider view

[00:50:05] almost, and

[00:50:06] those shows feel

[00:50:06] very authentic.

[00:50:08] And I'm like,

[00:50:09] wow, those are

[00:50:09] really great.

[00:50:10] The place where

[00:50:11] I'd like to get

[00:50:12] to my spy fiction.

[00:50:13] Yes.

[00:50:15] Well, I think

[00:50:16] this is the

[00:50:16] objective.

[00:50:17] I mean, for

[00:50:18] writing spy

[00:50:19] fiction, I

[00:50:20] think one has

[00:50:21] a wide

[00:50:22] remit to be

[00:50:23] able to

[00:50:24] explore whatever

[00:50:25] it is you really

[00:50:26] want to explore,

[00:50:27] what you imagine

[00:50:28] might be going

[00:50:29] on in these

[00:50:30] agencies.

[00:50:31] And I think

[00:50:32] that's fair

[00:50:34] dues.

[00:50:36] I have to say

[00:50:37] that I've kept

[00:50:38] away from it

[00:50:41] while I'm

[00:50:41] writing, because

[00:50:43] I don't want to

[00:50:44] be influenced.

[00:50:45] Of course, yeah.

[00:50:46] That might sound

[00:50:46] a bit arrogant,

[00:50:47] but...

[00:50:48] No, not at

[00:50:48] all.

[00:50:49] It is

[00:50:50] definitely a

[00:50:51] concern.

[00:50:51] I think even

[00:50:52] I've avoided

[00:50:52] some fiction,

[00:50:54] just because,

[00:50:55] especially with

[00:50:56] movies and

[00:50:56] things, you've

[00:50:57] got to be

[00:50:57] really careful,

[00:50:57] because it

[00:50:58] is very easy

[00:50:58] to accidentally

[00:50:59] start, especially

[00:51:00] when you're

[00:51:01] having a writer

[00:51:02] struggling with

[00:51:03] something.

[00:51:04] And that

[00:51:05] struggle is

[00:51:06] obviously part

[00:51:06] of the process

[00:51:07] that one hopes

[00:51:08] leads to some

[00:51:09] really interesting

[00:51:09] revelation, and

[00:51:10] you're like,

[00:51:10] wow, I

[00:51:11] surprised myself.

[00:51:12] But in that,

[00:51:13] it's a very

[00:51:14] vulnerable place,

[00:51:14] because suddenly

[00:51:15] you can look

[00:51:16] for easy

[00:51:17] answers, and

[00:51:17] those easy

[00:51:18] answers can lead

[00:51:19] you down the

[00:51:19] road of

[00:51:20] cliche or

[00:51:21] territory that's

[00:51:21] been done before,

[00:51:22] and it's a real

[00:51:22] hard balance,

[00:51:23] isn't it?

[00:51:23] Yes.

[00:51:24] No, I

[00:51:24] absolutely agree

[00:51:26] with that,

[00:51:27] yes.

[00:51:28] Because, I

[00:51:28] mean, characters

[00:51:28] do tend to

[00:51:29] sort of go

[00:51:30] off-piste

[00:51:30] sometimes.

[00:51:31] Yes,

[00:51:32] yeah,

[00:51:33] definitely,

[00:51:33] definitely.

[00:51:36] So, one has

[00:51:37] to use one's

[00:51:38] own imagination

[00:51:39] rather than

[00:51:39] someone else's.

[00:51:41] Yeah, exactly,

[00:51:42] Although I do

[00:51:42] use my wife's

[00:51:43] imagination,

[00:51:44] she's been through

[00:51:47] the mill through

[00:51:47] all my career,

[00:51:48] so there's not

[00:51:49] much she doesn't

[00:51:50] know.

[00:51:50] Oh, that's

[00:51:51] brilliant.

[00:51:52] So how do you

[00:51:53] go about writing

[00:51:54] these books?

[00:51:54] Yeah, sure.

[00:51:55] Working with

[00:51:55] your wife, is

[00:51:56] there like a

[00:51:56] process that

[00:51:57] you guys do?

[00:51:58] You sat at

[00:51:59] laptops across

[00:51:59] the desk, or

[00:52:00] do you write

[00:52:01] something and

[00:52:01] she rewrites

[00:52:02] it?

[00:52:03] How does it

[00:52:03] work?

[00:52:04] Yeah, no, it

[00:52:05] is, it's

[00:52:06] amusing, actually.

[00:52:07] We start off,

[00:52:08] every morning we

[00:52:09] go for a very

[00:52:10] early morning walk

[00:52:11] in the park, up

[00:52:12] the road, which

[00:52:14] sort of takes about

[00:52:15] an hour or so,

[00:52:16] and that's

[00:52:17] when, if we're

[00:52:18] starting a book,

[00:52:20] we start the

[00:52:21] plot and the

[00:52:22] characters and

[00:52:23] we discuss those

[00:52:24] and then we

[00:52:25] create a

[00:52:26] strategy and

[00:52:27] a sort of

[00:52:28] broad tactics

[00:52:29] and an

[00:52:30] outline of

[00:52:30] the characters

[00:52:31] so one's got

[00:52:32] a sort of

[00:52:34] pretty good

[00:52:35] idea as to

[00:52:35] where things

[00:52:36] should go.

[00:52:39] Then every

[00:52:40] morning before

[00:52:40] we write,

[00:52:41] or before I

[00:52:42] write, and

[00:52:43] then Kerry

[00:52:44] will edit

[00:52:45] and comment

[00:52:46] and put in

[00:52:47] our own

[00:52:48] thoughts.

[00:52:49] We talk

[00:52:50] about that

[00:52:50] day's work,

[00:52:52] what we're

[00:52:52] going to

[00:52:53] write, so

[00:52:53] there's a

[00:52:54] sort of

[00:52:54] jointery

[00:52:55] going on,

[00:52:55] rather like

[00:52:56] the

[00:52:56] intelligence

[00:52:56] agencies.

[00:52:58] I like it.

[00:52:59] Joint

[00:53:00] Intelligence

[00:53:00] Committee.

[00:53:04] And then

[00:53:05] that gets

[00:53:06] put onto

[00:53:06] the page,

[00:53:07] you know,

[00:53:07] onto the

[00:53:08] computer by

[00:53:09] I'll do

[00:53:10] the first

[00:53:10] draft.

[00:53:11] Kerry will

[00:53:12] tear it apart

[00:53:12] and put it

[00:53:13] together again.

[00:53:14] So we have

[00:53:15] this great

[00:53:17] rapport in

[00:53:18] a way, but

[00:53:20] that doesn't

[00:53:21] mean to say

[00:53:21] we don't have

[00:53:22] pencils at

[00:53:23] dawn.

[00:53:23] What we

[00:53:24] call pencils

[00:53:25] at dawn,

[00:53:26] you know,

[00:53:26] massive

[00:53:27] disagreement,

[00:53:28] you know,

[00:53:28] the neighbours

[00:53:29] wonder what's

[00:53:30] going on.

[00:53:32] Like it.

[00:53:36] That's

[00:53:36] brilliant.

[00:53:37] Well, with

[00:53:39] that all in

[00:53:39] mind, do

[00:53:39] you have any

[00:53:40] advice for

[00:53:41] aspiring writers?

[00:53:42] Go and do

[00:53:43] it.

[00:53:43] If you

[00:53:44] feel you

[00:53:44] want to

[00:53:45] write,

[00:53:46] just go

[00:53:47] and do

[00:53:47] it.

[00:53:48] I think

[00:53:49] the only

[00:53:49] thing I

[00:53:50] would say

[00:53:50] is write

[00:53:51] about what

[00:53:51] you know,

[00:53:52] and whether

[00:53:53] that's just

[00:53:53] your life

[00:53:54] experience or

[00:53:55] your job or

[00:53:56] whatever.

[00:53:57] But I

[00:53:57] wouldn't

[00:53:58] presume to

[00:53:58] offer any

[00:53:59] more advice

[00:54:00] than that.

[00:54:02] everybody

[00:54:02] has their

[00:54:03] own style,

[00:54:05] which is

[00:54:06] always sort

[00:54:07] of corrected

[00:54:07] by one's

[00:54:08] editor.

[00:54:09] Yeah.

[00:54:11] Yes.

[00:54:11] When one

[00:54:12] goes through

[00:54:12] the agony.

[00:54:15] But so

[00:54:17] much good

[00:54:18] comes out

[00:54:18] of that

[00:54:19] without any

[00:54:19] doubt

[00:54:19] whatsoever.

[00:54:20] One learns

[00:54:20] so much.

[00:54:21] I mean,

[00:54:22] it's just

[00:54:22] brilliant.

[00:54:22] Yeah.

[00:54:23] So yes,

[00:54:24] go and

[00:54:25] write would

[00:54:25] be my

[00:54:26] advice.

[00:54:27] And have

[00:54:27] fun.

[00:54:28] Yeah.

[00:54:28] Make it

[00:54:29] fun.

[00:54:30] Even

[00:54:30] during the

[00:54:31] blank times

[00:54:32] where you're

[00:54:33] scratching your

[00:54:34] head or

[00:54:35] your character

[00:54:36] suddenly comes

[00:54:36] and does

[00:54:37] something totally

[00:54:38] out of the

[00:54:39] blue and

[00:54:40] you're like,

[00:54:40] God,

[00:54:40] what's going

[00:54:41] on?

[00:54:43] Excellent.

[00:54:44] And any

[00:54:45] advice for

[00:54:46] future authors

[00:54:47] of spy fiction

[00:54:48] in particular?

[00:54:49] Use your

[00:54:49] imagination.

[00:54:51] There's so

[00:54:52] much.

[00:54:52] I mean,

[00:54:52] you write.

[00:54:55] You do

[00:54:56] that.

[00:54:56] You have

[00:54:57] your imagination

[00:54:58] and you

[00:54:58] use it.

[00:54:59] And I

[00:54:59] think this

[00:55:01] is fair

[00:55:01] game in

[00:55:02] spy fiction.

[00:55:04] I mean,

[00:55:05] we created

[00:55:07] an international

[00:55:08] agency.

[00:55:09] As far as I

[00:55:10] know,

[00:55:10] it's the only

[00:55:10] international

[00:55:11] agency that

[00:55:13] is in

[00:55:13] spy fiction

[00:55:14] at the

[00:55:14] moment.

[00:55:15] And that

[00:55:15] was really

[00:55:16] interesting

[00:55:16] to do,

[00:55:17] to bring

[00:55:18] together

[00:55:20] separate

[00:55:20] states,

[00:55:21] Russia and

[00:55:22] America and

[00:55:23] France,

[00:55:24] well,

[00:55:24] not France,

[00:55:24] but the

[00:55:25] UK,

[00:55:26] and see

[00:55:27] how they

[00:55:27] do cooperate

[00:55:28] together or

[00:55:29] don't.

[00:55:29] You know,

[00:55:30] see what the

[00:55:30] problems are

[00:55:31] as they

[00:55:31] try and

[00:55:33] mix and

[00:55:34] match their

[00:55:37] hunt for

[00:55:38] these people

[00:55:39] that are

[00:55:39] trying to

[00:55:39] destroy us,

[00:55:41] the people.

[00:55:43] Indeed.

[00:55:44] And are

[00:55:45] there more

[00:55:46] books in

[00:55:47] the works

[00:55:47] for you

[00:55:47] at the

[00:55:48] moment?

[00:55:48] Yes.

[00:55:49] We've

[00:55:50] just finished

[00:55:53] Arctic

[00:55:54] Betrayal,

[00:55:55] Catch of the

[00:55:55] Arctic

[00:55:56] Betrayal,

[00:55:56] which is

[00:55:57] set in

[00:55:57] the

[00:55:58] Laptev

[00:55:59] Sea in

[00:56:00] northern

[00:56:00] Siberia,

[00:56:01] and then

[00:56:02] moves on

[00:56:02] to other

[00:56:04] places,

[00:56:06] and

[00:56:09] involves a

[00:56:09] submarine

[00:56:10] this time.

[00:56:11] Oh,

[00:56:11] cool.

[00:56:12] Cool.

[00:56:12] Which was

[00:56:13] very good

[00:56:13] because we

[00:56:16] were very

[00:56:17] lucky to

[00:56:18] meet up

[00:56:19] with an

[00:56:19] ex-submarine

[00:56:20] commander

[00:56:22] who put us

[00:56:23] right upon how

[00:56:24] submarines actually

[00:56:25] work under the

[00:56:26] Arctic.

[00:56:27] So, yes,

[00:56:27] it was just

[00:56:28] great fun.

[00:56:29] Oh,

[00:56:29] fantastic.

[00:56:30] Not that we

[00:56:30] spent much

[00:56:31] time on the

[00:56:32] submarine,

[00:56:32] otherwise people

[00:56:33] would go to

[00:56:35] sleep.

[00:56:37] So,

[00:56:38] there's that,

[00:56:38] and then

[00:56:39] in the works

[00:56:40] is this

[00:56:41] A Cold

[00:56:43] Winter,

[00:56:43] which is set

[00:56:44] in Berlin

[00:56:45] in the

[00:56:46] late 70s.

[00:56:48] Yes.

[00:56:48] So,

[00:56:49] the

[00:56:51] Ark Betrayal

[00:56:53] is scheduled

[00:56:53] to come out

[00:56:54] in December.

[00:56:56] Yeah.

[00:56:57] So,

[00:56:57] that's good.

[00:56:59] Brilliant.

[00:56:59] Just in time

[00:57:00] for Christmas,

[00:57:00] that's good.

[00:57:01] That's good.

[00:57:02] Excellent.

[00:57:03] Another sort

[00:57:03] of hunt

[00:57:05] that she

[00:57:06] goes on

[00:57:06] in this

[00:57:07] dreadful

[00:57:07] world that

[00:57:08] she's decided

[00:57:09] to commit

[00:57:10] to.

[00:57:11] Yeah.

[00:57:12] Fantastic.

[00:57:13] Well,

[00:57:13] away from

[00:57:14] novels,

[00:57:15] do you have

[00:57:15] any advice

[00:57:16] for anyone

[00:57:16] considering a

[00:57:17] career in

[00:57:18] intelligence?

[00:57:18] Yes.

[00:57:19] It's

[00:57:20] absolutely

[00:57:21] fascinating

[00:57:23] and

[00:57:25] it explores

[00:57:27] all your

[00:57:28] talents,

[00:57:29] if that

[00:57:30] makes sense

[00:57:31] and talents

[00:57:32] that you

[00:57:33] probably didn't

[00:57:34] even know

[00:57:35] that you

[00:57:35] had.

[00:57:36] So,

[00:57:37] I would

[00:57:37] recommend it

[00:57:38] entirely.

[00:57:40] The agencies

[00:57:42] welcome

[00:57:43] anybody

[00:57:44] and everybody

[00:57:46] and they

[00:57:48] look after

[00:57:48] them incredibly

[00:57:49] well.

[00:57:50] As I've

[00:57:51] said,

[00:57:51] all this

[00:57:52] business of

[00:57:53] internecine

[00:57:54] warfare

[00:57:54] between people

[00:57:55] just forget

[00:57:57] it.

[00:57:57] It's

[00:57:58] teamwork.

[00:57:59] People help

[00:58:00] each other.

[00:58:01] It's

[00:58:02] exciting.

[00:58:04] And I

[00:58:04] said earlier,

[00:58:06] if you've

[00:58:07] got integrity

[00:58:08] and you've

[00:58:09] got courage

[00:58:10] and you've

[00:58:11] got a

[00:58:11] lateral mind

[00:58:12] and you

[00:58:13] like a bit

[00:58:14] of adventure,

[00:58:15] then go

[00:58:17] for it.

[00:58:18] Go online,

[00:58:19] have a

[00:58:20] look at

[00:58:20] the

[00:58:21] websites

[00:58:21] and apply

[00:58:23] online.

[00:58:25] Great.

[00:58:26] The more

[00:58:26] the merrier.

[00:58:27] I mean,

[00:58:28] the agencies

[00:58:29] need people

[00:58:30] out there

[00:58:31] and there's

[00:58:31] so much

[00:58:32] talent,

[00:58:33] isn't there?

[00:58:34] It's

[00:58:34] exciting.

[00:58:35] Yeah,

[00:58:36] and we're

[00:58:36] obviously in

[00:58:37] very interesting

[00:58:37] times right

[00:58:38] now,

[00:58:38] possibly

[00:58:39] historic.

[00:58:40] Maybe people

[00:58:41] will be

[00:58:41] looking back

[00:58:41] on this

[00:58:42] period and

[00:58:43] 60 years

[00:58:44] time and

[00:58:44] be like,

[00:58:45] wow,

[00:58:45] what those

[00:58:46] things happen.

[00:58:46] So one

[00:58:47] could be a

[00:58:48] part of

[00:58:48] contemporary

[00:58:48] history,

[00:58:49] really.

[00:58:49] Yes,

[00:58:50] sure.

[00:58:50] That's

[00:58:51] absolutely

[00:58:51] right.

[00:58:52] And it's

[00:58:54] not going

[00:58:55] out murdering

[00:58:56] and killing

[00:58:57] and all the

[00:58:57] rest of it.

[00:58:58] It's well

[00:58:58] controlled.

[00:58:59] It's

[00:59:00] legislated

[00:59:00] for.

[00:59:02] And I

[00:59:02] know a

[00:59:03] lot of

[00:59:03] people do

[00:59:04] not like

[00:59:04] the European

[00:59:05] Convention on

[00:59:06] Human Rights,

[00:59:06] but if we

[00:59:07] didn't have

[00:59:07] it,

[00:59:08] we wouldn't

[00:59:09] have agencies

[00:59:09] that are

[00:59:10] controlled and

[00:59:11] do their

[00:59:11] job properly.

[00:59:12] It's quite

[00:59:12] simple.

[00:59:13] Yeah,

[00:59:14] makes a

[00:59:14] lot of sense.

[00:59:15] Well,

[00:59:16] David,

[00:59:16] thank you for

[00:59:17] your time today.

[00:59:17] Is there

[00:59:17] anything else

[00:59:18] you'd like to

[00:59:18] say to us

[00:59:19] that we

[00:59:20] haven't discussed

[00:59:21] that's important

[00:59:22] to you at

[00:59:22] all?

[00:59:23] Any sort of

[00:59:24] final thoughts?

[00:59:25] I think one

[00:59:25] thing that's

[00:59:26] important to

[00:59:27] me is that

[00:59:27] I was

[00:59:27] incredibly

[00:59:28] lucky and

[00:59:29] really

[00:59:30] privileged to

[00:59:31] work with

[00:59:32] the intelligence

[00:59:33] agency officers,

[00:59:35] the remarkable

[00:59:36] people,

[00:59:37] and I sat

[00:59:38] sort of

[00:59:39] outside them

[00:59:40] to look in

[00:59:41] and work

[00:59:41] very closely

[00:59:42] with them,

[00:59:43] but I

[00:59:43] wasn't the

[00:59:43] one that had

[00:59:44] to go out

[00:59:44] and do

[00:59:45] the sort of

[00:59:46] dangerous work

[00:59:47] they do,

[00:59:48] and for me

[00:59:49] it was a

[00:59:49] huge privilege

[00:59:50] to work

[00:59:51] with them.

[00:59:52] Yeah,

[00:59:53] brilliant.

[00:59:54] Well,

[00:59:54] where can

[00:59:54] listeners find

[00:59:55] out more

[00:59:55] about you

[00:59:56] and your

[00:59:56] work?

[00:59:56] Yes,

[00:59:58] I'm on

[01:00:00] David

[01:00:01] Bickford

[01:00:01] CB.com

[01:00:03] on social

[01:00:04] media

[01:00:04] and

[01:00:06] LinkedIn

[01:00:07] X

[01:00:08] and

[01:00:09] Instagram.

[01:00:11] Yeah.

[01:00:12] So,

[01:00:12] yes,

[01:00:14] welcome to

[01:00:15] chat.

[01:00:15] David,

[01:00:16] thank you very

[01:00:16] much for your

[01:00:17] time today.

[01:00:18] It's been great

[01:00:19] chatting.

[01:00:19] We've really

[01:00:19] enjoyed our

[01:00:20] conversation

[01:00:21] and I hope

[01:00:22] we can have

[01:00:23] you back on

[01:00:23] again in the

[01:00:24] near future,

[01:00:25] maybe about the

[01:00:26] next book or

[01:00:26] next series of

[01:00:27] books.

[01:00:27] That would be

[01:00:28] really kind,

[01:00:28] Chris.

[01:00:29] It's been an

[01:00:29] absolute pleasure

[01:00:30] to talk and

[01:00:31] thank you so

[01:00:31] much for having

[01:00:32] me.

[01:00:32] Yeah,

[01:00:33] it's been great

[01:00:33] to have you on.

[01:00:34] Thank you.

[01:00:34] Thanks so much.

[01:00:35] Take care.

[01:00:36] Thank you,

[01:00:36] you too.

[01:01:06] Thanks for

[01:01:06] listening.

[01:01:07] This is Secrets

[01:01:08] and Spies.