S9 Ep7: Espresso Martini | North Korean Troops to Ukraine, Sinwar’s End, Israel Rolls Up an Iranian Spy Ring, and Conspiracies Drive Threats to FEMA

[00:00:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Secrets and Spies presents Espresso Martini with Chris Carr and Matt Fulton.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Hello everybody and welcome to Espresso Martini. Matt, how are you doing? Are you recovered from your cold?

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I am recovered from my cold. Last week was, actually it had somewhat advantageous timing. I didn't like, I sort of felt it coming on as we recorded our last one.

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_04]: I didn't... Yes, yeah, I could hear it towards the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can, if you, yeah, like Jonesy from Hunt for Red October with his big headphones would be able to hear that I had a cold coming on in the last episode.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_04]: But no, and then it hit me like the next day, like that Thursday. It was about lingering for a whole week, but I'm, it's fully gone now. I can breathe again. I remember what that's like.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_04]: That's good.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_04]: You've also had a separate strud incident.

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, I don't think it was yours.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_03]: No, that would be interesting if it was. I don't know how that happens, but yeah.

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_03]: It would. That would be crazy. But yeah, no, I did catch a very similar-ish cold like the week later.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Probably from going on the London Underground with people heaving and coughing and all that and not wearing a mask.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I think I got it from the New York subway. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, I should have worn a mask. It was just, there was somebody in particular hacking away, sounded like their lung was about to come out, which is a very typical occurrence at this time of year on the Underground.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And I remember thinking, I should be wearing a mask. And then about 48 hours after that, I started feeling a bit, ugh. So yeah, no. So I, oh God. So I was, no, I was sort of, I really lost a lot of energy.

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I was all very sort of fluish for about three days and then I was all right. And just sort of, even now my energy's not completely back. And obviously you could probably hear I'm still a little bit bunged up, but I'm definitely past the worst of it now, thank goodness.

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_04]: I wasn't fluish ever, thankfully. I was never, I never really get like sick like that. Like I get like a couple colds a year, one or two colds a year and that's pretty much it. But I was, like, I was okay. I was functioning. I would just wake up and, you know, hack a belong for five minutes because that's what you do once you're over 30.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh man.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Not that, I don't know. I don't think people really want to hear about this.

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_03]: No.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, if anybody else is out there with a cold or flu, have our sympathies. They're going around at the moment or worse than norovirus, which is the worst.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I had that once. That went through my dorm in college once my freshman year and never again, never again.

[00:02:53] [SPEAKER_03]: No, no. So on that pleasant note, we're going to today look at North Korean troops who are apparently being deployed to fight for Russia and Ukraine.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_03]: We've got Yaya Simwa's final moments.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And then we've got Israelis accused of working for Iran and violent threats towards FEMA in North Carolina.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Then on Extra Shot, our patron only show, we're going to be looking at US fusion cells and how they assisted Israel in the hunt for Hamas's leaders.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Then we're going to be looking at a North Korean nuclear submarine.

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Then we're going to be looking at the sky and the secret X-37B shuttle preparing for a novel space maneuver that should be actually happening today or tomorrow.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And then we've got the retirement of the EP3E spy plane, which is the end of an era for that.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_03]: So to get access to Extra Shot, you'll need to become a Patreon subscriber.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_03]: You can do that by clicking on the link in the podcast show notes right now on your app.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Otherwise, just go to patreon.com forward slash secrets and spies.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Depending on which level you pick, you can get a free cup like this or a set of coasters, which I don't actually have to hand.

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm not a very good salesman on that one today.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_03]: But the coasters have the secrets and spies logo.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I got it.

[00:04:12] [SPEAKER_04]: I'll hold it up to the camera.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Hey, Matt's got it.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_03]: You can get that as well.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_03]: So cup or coaster.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, just a reminder, click on the link in the show notes and it will take you straight there.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm going to move us to Ukraine stroke North Korea.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_03]: So there's this big story.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_03]: It's been developing for about a week now.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And just this morning, it's sort of suddenly now becoming a big thing, which it hadn't previously.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Hence why I thought I'd put it on.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_03]: But so yeah, South Korea's spy agency have released images last Friday claiming to show North Korean troops training at military bases in Russia's far eastern region.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_03]: North Korea has reportedly sent 1,500 special forces to Russia equipped with Russian uniforms, weapons and forged IDs.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_03]: South Korea's spy agency, the NIS, claims that North Korean officers are already present in Russian occupied Ukraine, with the total number of North Korean soldiers potentially reaching 12,000.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_03]: This force could also include North Korean fighter pilots, as mentioned by a South Korean reporter, who sadly, name I didn't get yesterday, but it was a live Pentagon press briefing.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And in the questions section, the South Korean reporter mentioned that there might be North Korean fighter pilots.

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And again, the Pentagon couldn't confirm or deny that, but that's a potential too.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Using facial recognition AI technology, South Korea's intelligence services identified North Korean officers in Ukraine's Donzenk region.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And these soldiers are reportedly assisting Russian forces in firing North Korean missiles.

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_03]: And satellite images have shown suspected North Korean troop movements in eastern Russia.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_03]: South Korea's South Korea's government have warned that this collaboration between Russia and North Korea represents a serious global security threat.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Ukraine's President Zelenskyy has also echoed concerns, saying that North Korea's involvement could mark the start of a world war.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Experts have questioned the effectiveness of North Korean troops, given their outdated equipment and lack of combat experience.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_03]: North Korea's increasing support for Russia has seen part of a broader strategy to gain economic and military aid from Moscow.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Meanwhile, North Korea has severed ties with South Korea, declaring it a hostile nation and cutting off road and rail links.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And Ukrainian intelligence believe that North Korean troops will be ready to fight from the 1st of November.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_03]: So this is a pretty hot story at the moment, and things could change by the time you hear this.

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_03]: But only now the Pentagon are really kind of confirming what South Korean intelligence and Ukrainian intelligence have pretty much said and what we've repeated here.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_03]: So, Matt, what are your thoughts on this development?

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Lloyd Austin just confirmed this morning that North Korean troops have been deployed to Russia around Vladivostok.

[00:07:22] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, just this morning that came out.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_04]: From the Russians, this is a very kind of interesting, I don't know, tradeoff, I guess.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, at one point in this article says this, the North Koreans don't have any actual combat experience.

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, I mean, they're one of the largest militaries in the world.

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, very poorly equipped thanks to sanctions, even though I think their own domestic production kind of holds its own considering, you know, what their economy is able to support.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_04]: But, of course, that comes at, you know, the expense of their people living in like abject squalor.

[00:08:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't think we talked about it on the air.

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_04]: But something that's really interesting about these two wars in the Middle East and in Ukraine recently is they're sort of, they become proving grounds for tactics, emerging tactics and technologies that you would see in the next great power conflict.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Whether that's fought at some point in the future in, say, the Baltics or in the Indo-Pacific region, right?

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_04]: So whether that's drones, swarms of drones, AI-enabled targeting technologies and stuff like that, right?

[00:09:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, yeah, there's reports now that there's North Korean troops coming into the battlefield in Ukraine.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_04]: I would bet money that there are Chinese observers probably and have been probably not that far back from the Russian lines.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_04]: I would also venture that the US, the UK, France, Germany all have observers not that far back from the Ukrainian lines.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, like they're all sort of looking in at this fishbowl, this sandbox.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's somewhat tragic in a way that the war is being used, that it's being used in that way.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, this is being fought on the backs of Ukrainians.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_04]: But I think that's definitely part of it, what the North Koreans sort of seek to get from here.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know if they're meant to be used as anything other than cannon fodder, you know?

[00:10:07] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you think, okay, there's 12,000 North Korean troops coming to Ukraine.

[00:10:12] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, we'll kill them in Ukraine so that you don't have to kill them in Korea at some point in the future.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, that would be, you think, what NATO, the Ukrainians, South Korean intelligence especially is also probably looking, you know, identifying like specific officers that are on the ground.

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, can we pass this information to the Ukrainians?

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, here's this North Korean officer that we're aware of from our various intelligence profiling and stuff.

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_04]: That would be useful to us if he did not make it back home.

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Right?

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_04]: Right?

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_04]: So, a good look at stuff like that.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_04]: There's also, from the Russian perspective, I think it's pretty clear that Putin and the Kremlin are very sensitive about the casualty numbers.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Right?

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_04]: He's been very hesitant for a long time to do another round of mass mobilizations, you know, mass conscription for fear that that bursts their propaganda bubble that they have built over the country, you know?

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_04]: And it stabilizes things at home.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_04]: So, okay, if you're hesitant to call up 12,000 more Russian conscripts to the front lines, okay, call up 12,000 North Korean troops to the front lines.

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Russians won't care about North Koreans being killed in Ukraine.

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_04]: You know?

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a very interesting sort of tradeoff.

[00:11:34] [SPEAKER_04]: The other thing that I think with this story, it's extraordinarily difficult for two militaries, especially two that don't share a language, to learn how to fight together effectively.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_04]: No matter how closely politically allied their governments are.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, NATO is the best trained, best funded military alliance in the world.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's a full time job that we've been doing for what?

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_04]: 70, 80 years?

[00:11:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Almost at this point, learning how to fight together and drilling that consistently again and again and again.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_04]: It's very hard.

[00:12:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_04]: And I would be curious to see how effective this, you know, this partnership is on the battlefield, if it's effective at all.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_04]: I think that's very much remaining to be determined.

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_04]: The other thing is I think Kim Jong-un will be owed quite a pretty penny from the Russians.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_04]: I know this article states that a bit.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_04]: It's, you know, what he's going to ask for in return is, I don't know, in Extra Shot, we're going to talk about a North Korean nuclear submarine project.

[00:12:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Maybe I'm sure that would be on the list of subjects that Kim Jong-un would like to bring up with the Russians, help with that project potentially.

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I worry a little bit that he might have similar ambitions to Putin to make North Korea Korea again, you know.

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_03]: And take on the South.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_03]: There's a real potential.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Somebody pointed out, I think it was Tyler Rogoway from The War Zone pointed out that apparently Ukraine has similar terrain to Korea.

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And any kind of fighting experience in that terrain could be useful for North Korean troops should they wish to go head to head with South Korean troops down the line.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Also, it's believed that North Korea will sort of, yeah, we talked a bit about this sort of, they'll get better experience in an active war zone.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_03]: But they'll also get training on more modern equipment because they've, so far, North Korean troops have not really been in a modern battlefield.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So, well, as far as we know, at least.

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_03]: So there's a school of thought that this will enable North Korean forces to kind of get first-hand combat experience with modern equipment, modern techniques, and sort of be a real education that they can bring back home.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_03]: And interestingly as well, I don't think South Korean troops have really had much combat experience in recent years.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And so you might have North Korean troops suddenly have more first-hand experience than South Korean troops.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Unless South Korea, as part of their response to this, decide to start sending in some special forces.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_03]: But I don't think that's going to happen.

[00:14:19] [SPEAKER_04]: I would probably guess the extent of their involvement will be intelligence support and perhaps weapons and equipment that's being supplied, South Korean weapons and equipment that's being supplied to the Ukrainians now because of this.

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_04]: That makes sense to me.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't realize South Korea was quite such a large weapons manufacturer and held to such high esteem as it is now.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_03]: It was something like one of the, I don't know, it's the third biggest, but a very significant weapons manufacturer now and their equipment is sort of considered top-notch.

[00:14:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And in fact, they're sitting on surplus 105mm artillery rounds apparently that could be very useful to make life difficult for the Russians and North Koreans should they decide to ship that to Ukraine because Ukraine do have, yeah, I think they've got over, I think it was over 200 artillery units that could take that round.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_03]: So that could be very useful because, again, artillery shells are kind of come up as being running short and that could be very helpful.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_03]: The other thing I read as well was that there's a school of thought that the North Koreans might be used at this stage to kind of take on almost sort of like a sentry duty at bases and things which would then free up Russian troops to kind of continue on with the fighting.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_03]: And then the North Koreans are kind of in a backup position providing security and then over time, I guess, once they're a bit more up to speed with things, then they can start being used on a more regular basis.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_03]: I would imagine the special forces would have slightly better training and probably would be used with Spetsnats and things like that almost immediately.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_03]: But I think the more kind of regular infantryman, I don't think they have any infantry women.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_03]: No, they do actually, don't they? I don't know if there are any women going into Ukraine or not, but certainly infantry people, should we put it that way, could be more for security at this stage and then come in later on.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_03]: So we'll see how that sort of develops.

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_03]: But I was really, I think, quite surprised at how little coverage this has really had in the UK until literally the last 48 hours, because I've been reading about this a good week now.

[00:16:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And in, you know, in the mainstream sort of press and the BBC, it barely got a mention.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_03]: It got a, you know, it was one page on the Ukraine war page for a good week before it sort of started to really kind of be taken more seriously.

[00:16:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm just, yeah, I'm just surprised that this isn't seen as a sort of bigger thing, because it is a huge escalation, symbolically at least, because now North Korea are getting involved in a land war in Europe.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_03]: And at least from a symbolic point of view, that's pretty bad.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_03]: How's the coverage in the US been in comparison?

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I haven't been glued to the news as much in the past couple of weeks.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_04]: I haven't seen as much about this.

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I know it's definitely been reported.

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_04]: I wouldn't say that it's, you know, wall-to-wall coverage is certainly like a leading story.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_04]: We're sort of, we're pretty distracted at the moment.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_04]: We're pretty focused inward right now.

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, yeah, with the election and everything.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_03]: No, totally, totally.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a big thing.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not particularly big currently.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, it could heat up quite quickly.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_03]: But let's not, hope not.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_03]: One other thing as well that came up.

[00:17:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Michael Weiss on his foreign office substat yesterday mentioned that North Korea have already supplied 1.6 million artillery rounds, plus ballistic missiles to Russia to help it in its war against Ukraine.

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_03]: So obviously, North Korea have already been semi-involved in all this prior to sending in troops.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And obviously now there's been some videos showing North Korean soldiers conducting training drills and collecting uniforms.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if you've seen them, but I've certainly seen them on Twitter.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_03]: They're sort of doing the rounds.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And we've already mentioned, obviously, yes, South Korea are sitting on a huge surplus of 105mm artillery rounds.

[00:18:21] [SPEAKER_03]: So currently South Korea have not given any lethal aid to Ukraine.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_03]: But President Yoon Suk-yul's office has sort of said that we are going to consider supplying weapons for defensive purposes as part of the step-by-step scenarios.

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And if they seem they're going too far, we might consider weapons for offensive use as well.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_03]: So obviously the South Koreans are really kind of considering what they can now supply and a kind of almost tit for tat strategy.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Because I think, you know, the South Koreans, when I was in Korea, obviously, back in, was it 2002?

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_03]: That was a very long time ago now.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_03]: There was always tensions between North and South Korea.

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was there when President Bush gave his famous Axis of Evil speech.

[00:19:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And alert levels sort of went up whilst I was there.

[00:19:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Korean, South Koreans became much more nervous.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_03]: I remember being on the equivalent of the underground there and seeing like lots of posters warning members of the public to look out for North Korean submarines.

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And in particular, to be careful about being kidnapped from beaches because there's this sort of thing of North Koreans occasionally kidnapping people and stuff.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And also, there's been incidents in the past where North Korean special forces have sent sort of frogmen onto the beach to then infiltrate Korean society.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And one or two have ended fatally.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's, yeah, there's a lot of tension there.

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's also interesting, the North Koreans are currently in a base that's about 4,000 miles from Ukraine.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's out of touch from Ukrainian kind of conventional weapons, as we know of, whether Ukrainian special forces or something have reached to get to...

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Partisans?

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, or partisans and things like that.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Who knows?

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_03]: We will see.

[00:20:08] [SPEAKER_03]: But it's, yeah.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And it actually, as well, it reminded me of how big Russia is because Russia literally, you know, to get into Russia from North Korea, it's just a short boat ride.

[00:20:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And you're like, bloody hell, Russia does stretch across a huge part of the globe.

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_03]: We forget that sometimes.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_03]: At least I forget that.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Vladivostok's about as far as you can get from Ukraine and still be in Russia.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's, yeah, it's crazy, isn't it?

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, one other thing as well, we haven't really ever talked about the South Korean intelligence services.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'll just give a quick overview of what they have.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_03]: So they have the National Intelligence Service, and that's the main agency in South Korea.

[00:20:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And it was previously called the National, the Agency for National Security Planning.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And then prior to that, it was the Korean Central Intelligence Agency.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_03]: So despite its name changes, it is the main intelligence agency.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_03]: So NIS.

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_03]: And obviously they're responsible for foreign and domestic intelligence.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And then you have the Defense Security Command, which is part of the Ministry of National Defense.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_03]: And that agency works with NIS to collect national security intelligence, specifically on North Korea.

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Then you've got the National Security Council, who both those bodies report to.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And those bodies advise the president's office.

[00:21:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Then you've got the Presidential Security Service, the PSS, which is an independent agency that protects the president, prime minister and their families.

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And obviously it's based on the U.S. Secret Service.

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Then you have the National Police Agency, which pretty much does what it says in the tin.

[00:21:42] [SPEAKER_03]: It's the coordinated police agency that looks at sort of domestic threats from a law enforcement perspective.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And then you have the Korea Information Security Agency, which is an interesting agency, this one, because it's the KISA is the only information security organization in Korea with the aim to improve the global competitiveness of Korea's internet industry.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_03]: So they provide both sort of protection and intelligence on Korea's internet services there.

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_03]: So I guess Korea is probably a little bit vulnerable for internet interference from a kind of cable perspective, I'm assuming.

[00:22:24] [SPEAKER_03]: That makes sense.

[00:22:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, they're probably concerned that North Korea could send subs or something to kind of cut the ties or the cables.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And I know my time in Korea, obviously Korea is a very technology-focused culture.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_03]: So again, if they lost the internet, that could be a huge problem for their economy.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So I can see why they have an agency that's sort of dedicated to protecting it.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_03]: So I thought that was quite interesting.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And I certainly, in the new year, would love to find one or two guests who could talk to us about Korea.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Because just, again, it's always about trying to find the right people and then find the right person who can speak English.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Because I think if we had a live translation going on the podcast, I'm not quite sure that would sound so great.

[00:23:08] [SPEAKER_03]: But I don't know.

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_03]: We could try it.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like sensory overload.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_03]: It could be.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_03]: It could be.

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_03]: It could be quite interesting.

[00:23:15] [SPEAKER_03]: But we will see.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_03]: But if any listeners out there can recommend any security experts on Korea who are Korean, please send them our way.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Because I'd love to chat with some people about Korea.

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_03]: And hey, put it in our Secrets and Spies place to visit as well.

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Because I'd love to go back to Korea at some point.

[00:23:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Because I really enjoyed my time out there.

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I love Korean food.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I was a big fan of this lovely pancake that kind of has a sort of fishy flavor to it, which is really nice.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And kimchi as well.

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And the army stew, which I've completely forgot the name of.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_03]: But it's because of the American army influence after the Korean War.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_03]: There's this stew that has kimchi, baked beans, hot dogs, spam, tinned spaghetti.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's all kind of mixed together.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_04]: Oh, that's like they took all the junk from MREs and just put them in a pot.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_03]: But it actually tastes really good.

[00:24:12] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think you have a fried egg on top the way I've had it.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's actually pretty good.

[00:24:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And then there's the dish from the film Parasites as well, which I, again, forgot the name of.

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_03]: But that's really nice as well.

[00:24:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Ram Dong, I think, is the other.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_03]: It's really nice.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Really nice if you've not had it.

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_03]: So, I have a feeling we'll be hearing more about this story.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_03]: And we may end up talking about it again on future episodes.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_03]: But it sort of seems to be a sort of developing story.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, there is this sort of fear about what does this all mean?

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Because, again, it's sort of more evidence of this sort of axis between Russia, Iran, China and North Korea.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, as we said moments ago, there'd be the Korean, the North Koreans are definitely going to be getting something from all this.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And we imagine, I could imagine it's going to be kind of more advanced military technology of sorts.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_03]: And then what does one do with that technology?

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_03]: That's the worrying thing.

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_04]: Bottom line here with me, if I'm South Korean intelligence, I would want to identify specific North Korean officers in Ukraine, battlefield commanders,

[00:25:23] [SPEAKER_04]: people the regime would miss, could not easily replace, identify them, pass that information to the Ukrainians, and make sure they don't make it back home.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And the Ukrainians, I mean, my God, there was a – they're getting really good at killing off people in Russia.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Because there was a bomber pilot who was responsible for one of the many terrible bombings that happened.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And there was one recently of a shopping center, I think.

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And they tracked down the pilot on the plane and killed him.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's like, wow.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_03]: The Ukrainian intelligence services have got an incredible reach.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, as icky as it is, they are in a war with Russia.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And I can kind of understand why they're doing what they're doing.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And I don't think many people will be shedding a tear over the loss of that pilot other than obviously his family and friends.

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_04]: The pilots are often more valuable than the planes they fly.

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:26:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Because of the training, et cetera.

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, as the Ukrainians are sort of finding at the moment, getting people who are skilled enough to fly those, you know, everything from F-16s, et cetera, is a bit of a challenge.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, Matt, let's take a break and we'll be right back.

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Elon Musk is one of the most powerful men in the world.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: A billionaire, a free speech champion, and to his critics, a far-right rabble rouser.

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But for someone so public, there's one part of his life that's less well known.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So he told people that Elon Musk had put private investigators on him.

[00:27:01] [SPEAKER_01]: From Tortoise, this is Elon Spies, a journey into Musk's private world.

[00:27:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Listen wherever you get your podcasts and follow the feed to make sure you don't miss an episode.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, welcome back.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_03]: So let's move into Yaya Sinwar's final moments.

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure many of us have sort of seen the famous video now on Twitter where the one-armed Sinwar throws a – it looked like an orange stick at a drone.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I couldn't quite tell if it was orange or not, whether it was a trick of the light.

[00:27:40] [SPEAKER_03]: It was really weird.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I had trouble seeing what that was at first.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_04]: But, yeah.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, was it a broom handle or something?

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, some sort of a – I mean, the building had collapsed around him.

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_04]: So presumably, I don't know, some piece of that or whatever.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_03]: But, yeah, basically a big stick.

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, so final moment of defiance and desperation there.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_03]: But – so what led to all that?

[00:28:03] [SPEAKER_03]: So Israeli trainee squad commanders from an infantry unit stumbled upon Yaya Sinwar, the Hamas commander responsible for the 7th of October attacks,

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_03]: after a year-long failed manhunt by elite Israeli special forces.

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_03]: The discovery happened on a routine patrol in the Tel Al-Sultan refugee camp in Rafah.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Sinwar's location was not entirely random.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_03]: The IDF had found traces of his DNA in the area in early September in an underground passageway a few metres from the tunnel where bodies of six executed Israeli hostages were found.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_03]: The Israeli theory now is that the hostages had been Sinwar's shields at some point and that when the IDF patrols got too close,

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_03]: he decided their presence was making him too conspicuous.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_03]: So he left that hiding place and then he had the hostages shot and dumped somewhere away from him.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_03]: The head of the IDF Southern Command, Major General Yaron Finkelman, focused on the region based on a hunch that Sinwar hadn't travelled far.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_03]: The Israeli soldiers engaged in a firefight with Sinwar and his bodyguards, eventually using tank fire to target the building where Sinwar had taken refuge.

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_03]: A drone recorded his last moments, showing him wounded and defiant, attempting to fend off the drone before being killed in a subsequent attack.

[00:29:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Sinwar's identity was confirmed through DNA testing of his remains and the fallout from his death remains sort of uncertain as Hamas might intensify its resistance or it could lose momentum.

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_03]: But his last stand could also enhance his status as a martyr for some.

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And apparently the location of his body is being kept a secret by Israel.

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And I read also that they're holding on to his body until the hostages are released.

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_03]: So Matt, what are your thoughts on this episode?

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, it's been, it was said previously over the last year by a few Israeli security officials that Sinwar's field security,

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_04]: the lengths he took to shield himself from the rest of the organization and evade capture,

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_04]: was so good that, you know, despite the entire might of the Israeli security apparatus and, you know, the U.S. intelligence community,

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_04]: their efforts to aid in finding, you know, the hostages and other high-level Hamas officials,

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_04]: that was so good that the only way that they predicted that the only way that Sinwar would be found was if he was found by accident.

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_04]: It's kind of interesting that that's how they, that that's how it went down.

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I think if a bittersweet aspect to this is, um, he, Sinwar absolutely went out the way he would have wanted to.

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, and I think that image of him, you know, with his, with his hand, with his forearm kind of blown off,

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_04]: um, his face wrapped in a keffia, throwing a stick at that drone.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, that's, that's propaganda gold for his, for his supporters.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_04]: And you're going to be seeing that stuff, um, forever.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_04]: However, um, he's, he's, he's gone.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, you know, the, the, there's one man who is a mastermind, who was the mastermind for October 7th

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_04]: and most directly responsible for it.

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_04]: It would have been, it would have been him.

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, what happens to Hamas now?

[00:31:41] [SPEAKER_04]: I don't know.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_04]: I believe his brother Muhammad is, um, was, is now appointed the, um, leader of Hamas,

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_04]: at least in, in, in Gaza, you know, what that actually means in practice.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Who can say, I mean, I think probably fair to, as we would the Hezbollah leaders replacing, um,

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Hassan Nasrallah, you know, give him the head of lettuce treatment, like which will last longer,

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_04]: you know?

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, yeah.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not been a good job position.

[00:32:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I think nobody wants to be the head of Hezbollah now.

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_04]: No, not a good, not a good position to have.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_04]: The new head of Hezbollah is a new Al Qaeda number three.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, it's, uh, I hope it, it helps bring some sense of closure for October 7th.

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_04]: I think that's been something that in the West we have really not fully tapped into and,

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_04]: and understood the degree of trauma that Israel has felt as, as, as society that Israel has

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_04]: felt since October 7th.

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, yeah.

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, we should be able to understand it to an extent because, I mean, it's, I think it's

[00:32:54] [SPEAKER_04]: almost identical to what happened in the U.S. after 9-11, what's been going on over there

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_04]: in the last year.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, what happens to Hamas now?

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, I don't know.

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Uh, would, would the Israelis try to broker separate ceasefire agreements with, with different

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_04]: factions of the organization that are now, you know, split and isolated across different

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_04]: parts of the strip?

[00:33:17] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I don't know.

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Does it, does it, uh, I, there are no sort of active efforts to, um, negotiate a new ceasefire

[00:33:26] [SPEAKER_04]: or a hostage deal?

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_04]: I think it's smart though that they're holding onto his, onto his body, you know, as part

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_04]: of the deal.

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_04]: You get his remains back if you get the hostages back.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I don't know that that's been explicitly said that that's why they're doing it, but it

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_04]: would make sense to me that they would offer that.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_03]: No, but it's been implied, hasn't it?

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_03]: It's definitely not been, yeah, it's a bit of a interesting issue, that one.

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Even, it is a bit abhorrent, but I can understand why they've done it and I kind of don't blame

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_03]: the Israelis.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a, it's a, it's a leverage, you know, it's a, it's a carrot to offer.

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I mean, I'm sure they would not want, uh, his resting place to be used as, you know,

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_04]: a shrine or something for the same reason we dumped bin Laden in the Indian ocean.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_04]: But Hey, when you're in that situation, I mean, Al Qaeda wasn't holding a hundred plus Americans

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_04]: hostage when bin Laden was killed.

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm sure if that was the situation, his body would be, yeah, you might, you might want to

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_04]: make that, that, that calculation there that it's, he's worth holding onto for that purpose.

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_04]: It's tough.

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, yeah, but, uh, glad to, glad to see him gone.

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I, I shared a sentiment.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, like there was a line in the reporting when I first read it, that kind of gave me

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_03]: chills and sickened me slightly.

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_03]: And that was the, um, the line was the Israeli theory now is that the hostages had been Simwa

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_03]: shield.

[00:34:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And at some point when the IDF patrols got too close, he decided their presence was making

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_03]: him too conspicuous.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_03]: So he left that hiding place and had the hostages shot and dumped some way away.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And that truly is one of the most sickening things I've read in recent times.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, so this is the kind of man that he was.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, yeah.

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Uh, and I think he thought in his own sort of way, he was somehow the savior of the Palestinians

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_03]: and all that.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think he was just ultimately a very delusional man who was filled with a lot of hate.

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, you know, he'd been in Israeli custody for a very long time.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_03]: And I read as well that, um, apparently the Israelis even gave him life-saving, um, brain

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_03]: surgery because he had a brain tumor apparently years before.

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_04]: He was in an Israeli prison for, uh, 20 years and released in 2011 as part of the Gilad Shalit,

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_04]: um, hostage deal.

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, and I think, you know, he'd been since his, since his release, he'd been building

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_03]: to October the 7th or some equivalent act.

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And, um, yeah.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_03]: So in some ways it's good that the Israelis got him.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a bit like when America got bin Laden.

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, it kind of does bring a sort of sense of, um, justice to that.

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, but I think the problem is we've said this before.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, but I think the civilian cost to get him has been frankly too high and appalling.

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and I think Sinwar wanted it to be that way.

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think the, this whole operation by Israelis in the long run, you know, have sort of played

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_03]: into his hands and may well have done serious political harm for Israel's future.

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think there is a real risk that we're going to just see endless t-shirts of a picture

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_03]: of Sinwar on his chair, throwing that stick at the drone or something, you know, you could

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_03]: turn that into kind of a kind of cartoon.

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and yeah, I just think that they've unfortunately given him the death he wanted, as I think you

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_03]: mentioned just moments ago.

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_03]: So, so it's, um, yeah.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, I mean, I hope, I hope his death does lead to some sort of way forward for the people

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_03]: of Israel, Gaza and the West Bank that is more peaceful than the one that we currently

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_03]: have.

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, just seeing the world that we're in, I won't hold my breath on that.

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_03]: I think, I, I, I think, um, I suspect the Israelis will probably want to go even further

[00:37:10] [SPEAKER_03]: and harder at Hamas and really crush them now in their moment of potential weakness because

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_03]: now they've cut the head off of the snake, so to speak.

[00:37:18] [SPEAKER_03]: This is, you know, the whole decapitation strategy, which certainly the Americans, uh,

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_03]: US military and stuff have talked about is very much a real strategy.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_03]: And some people really do believe that if you do kill the head of a terrorist organization,

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_03]: it really does do some serious harm.

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, but you know, when you look at Al Qaeda and ISIS, to some extent, Al Qaeda has been

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_03]: severely degraded after the law and died in the subsequent leaders.

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_03]: It was definitely not what it was, but it still exists.

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Same with ISIS.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I think ISIS still exists in various forms.

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_03]: So I don't think you'll ever a hundred percent get rid of Hamas.

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, but we will see.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and obviously as some, as it was noticed in the article, it is slightly ironic that it

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_03]: was a low ranking Israeli soldier would be, or a group of soldiers would be the ones to

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_03]: find them and not the elite special forces.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, so yeah, very interesting.

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I wonder how they feel about it.

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Say her, I'm not a cow.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Those guys.

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't, am I right?

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_03]: They released the name of the soldier who killed him.

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I think I saw that somewhere.

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I could be wrong, but I don't, I don't, I don't know.

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I would, I would, if I was that soldier, I would not want my name released.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, no, because then you become a target for any supporter of Hamas.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_03]: I think you'd almost have to change your name and identity should you ever leave Israel.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that'd be a very bad move.

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I did read somewhere on Twitter, a name, but again, that could be a load of BS.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I couldn't really, it's one of those things where I kind of half read it and never really

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_03]: followed up on it.

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_03]: But it struck me as, I, it struck me as really stupid if they did release his name.

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah.

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, to your point about, um, dismantling Al Qaeda.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, getting bin Laden was big, was a big deal for that.

[00:38:59] [SPEAKER_04]: It did not, it was not a death blow to Al Qaeda.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I mean, it gave us a huge insight into how the organization functions or functioned,

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_04]: I should say, um, given all the intelligence that the CIA pulled out of, um, his compound.

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_04]: But I mean, I was outside the, I was in the crowd outside the White House on the night he

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_04]: was killed.

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Um, I'll never forget that.

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_04]: And, uh, yeah, I think I, I remember that night and then that was May, 2011, right?

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_04]: And then the following September, I remember watching, um, on September 11th that year.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_04]: So the 10 year anniversary, um, I remember watching Obama speak at the ceremony at the

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_04]: World Trade Center.

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, yeah, that being the first ceremony after, after bin Laden had been killed.

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't a death blow to Al Qaeda.

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_04]: Al Qaeda was still around.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_04]: They're still around now.

[00:39:54] [SPEAKER_04]: I think what was most important about that is, um, I, I think that his death and that

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_04]: right at that 10 year anniversary, just as, you know, Sinwar's death came in the sort of

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_04]: one year anniversary of, of October 7th.

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a, it, it, I think was the beginning of the end of American society feeling it was

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_04]: gripped in this, you know, war on terror mentality, you know, dealing with the trauma of 9-11.

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_04]: And I, I believe that, yeah, bin Laden's death right there, that 10 year anniversary was,

[00:40:21] [SPEAKER_04]: I think, if you were to chart like the beginning of the end of that, that was, that was definitely

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_04]: it.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_04]: So, you know, hopefully, uh, the same rings true for, um, Israel.

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, indeed.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And just with Al Qaeda, interestingly, obviously, I ultimately think the biggest death blow to

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Al Qaeda was ISIS.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, you know, I think I, this is the thing with terrorist groups.

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_03]: They all end up kind of in competition for each other.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Part of the competition to kind of get donations, you know, and this is in the early days of

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Al Qaeda because it was the U.S.'s coal attack and the lack of reaction to it that may well

[00:40:55] [SPEAKER_03]: have led to 9-11 because, um, bin Laden believed that after attacking an American warship,

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_03]: it would lead to, you know, some sort of response from the U.S. and they kind of got nothing and

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Al Qaeda needed to prove it was the sort of top dog of, you know, terrorism today and the

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_03]: leader of resistance against America.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_03]: And so sort of 9-11 came about and upped the ante and then Al Qaeda suddenly was taken

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_03]: seriously in the Middle East and suddenly donors, you know, in, um, Gulf States, et cetera,

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_03]: started to give them money.

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and this is the interesting thing with terrorism.

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of the time it's more about making money and getting kind of power than it is about

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_03]: anything else.

[00:41:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and certainly when we are special on Hamas, um, after October the 7th, we talked a bit

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_03]: about the, the money that they were making.

[00:41:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I can't recall it now, but, um, if you go back to that episode, there's some interesting

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_03]: stuff about the amount of money they do make.

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And obviously they have offices in, in, um, Qatar and I'm sure there are people who all

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_03]: across the Middle East and beyond and probably in the West as well, who have given money to

[00:42:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Hamas, especially after October the 7th.

[00:42:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, unfortunately these kinds of events do sort of, um, yeah, do sort of show their effectiveness

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_03]: and, and people then, you know, who are sympathetic to them will give them money to kind of congratulate

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_03]: them for what they've done.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, so it's, yeah, not cool.

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah.

[00:42:23] [SPEAKER_03]: So whether this decapitation strike really does something or not, I don't know.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Time will tell.

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Time will tell.

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and, and God forbid there might be another terrorist organization waiting in the wings

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_03]: somewhere who will do something equally horrific or worse.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And then they'll become the focus of counterterrorism strategy.

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Cause certainly, um, in North, well, in Africa and more in Africa than the Middle East, I

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_03]: think that things are really picking up with ices at the moment.

[00:42:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And, um, that's something we need to look at.

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_04]: They're exploiting that vacuum that's there and on the continent.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Cause terrorist groups operate in failed States is really helpful for them for, you know, cause

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_03]: they can provide logistics, et cetera, and get recruits and, and no law enforcement to

[00:43:10] [SPEAKER_03]: really kind of get in their way.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_03]: So who, who knows what the future holds in that regard.

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_03]: But, uh, on that true note, um, I'm going to hand over to you cause you did a, you picked

[00:43:19] [SPEAKER_03]: up a really interesting story about this sort of Israeli spy scandal going, going on at the

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_03]: moment.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Very rare.

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_04]: And, um, I mean, especially given the context of the last year, very rare and interesting

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_04]: case of a group of Israelis being arrested for spying for the Iranians.

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_04]: So let's get into it.

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_04]: So seven Jewish Israelis of Azeri origin.

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_04]: So from Azerbaijan, um, of Azeri origin had been arrested for allegedly spying for Iran,

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_04]: carrying out 600 intelligence gathering missions on sensitive Israeli military and infrastructure

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_04]: sites, including IDF airbases and energy facilities.

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_04]: The suspects reportedly gathered intelligence on critical sites such as Ramit David and Nevatim

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_04]: airbases, Iron Dome locations, and the Galani brigade base where a Hezbollah drone attack

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_04]: recently killed four soldiers.

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_04]: They also identified Israeli citizens for potential attacks by Iran.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_04]: The group motivated by financial gain was allegedly directed by Iranian intelligence agents and paid

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_04]: hundreds of thousands of dollars with funds routed through Russian intermediaries.

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_04]: The suspects were aware their actions could aid enemy missile attacks.

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_04]: Israeli security agencies described the espionage as one of the most serious known to the state,

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_04]: inflicting substantial security damage.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_04]: The arrests were part of a coordinated counterintelligence operation by Israel's shin bet, police and

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_04]: military intelligence.

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_04]: This case highlights Iran's persistent attempts to recruit and exploit Israeli citizens for espionage

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_04]: and terrorism.

[00:44:42] [SPEAKER_04]: It follows a series of recent arrests and investigations into similar espionage networks within Israel.

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_04]: Chris, what'd you think of this one?

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, yeah, it's quite eye-opener to this one because it is hard to imagine someone from Israel

[00:44:54] [SPEAKER_03]: would willingly work for the Iranian intelligence services who clearly their aim is to help destroy

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Israel or at the very least seriously undermine it.

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_03]: And as per the police, the network members were aware that the intelligence they provided

[00:45:09] [SPEAKER_03]: compromised national security and could potentially aid enemy missile attacks.

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah, I'm fascinated by the motivation and apparently it was muddy.

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And to me, that's almost worse than ideological because there's a sort of callousness to that.

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_03]: You mentioned their ethnicity.

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_03]: So they're of Aziri?

[00:45:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Is it Aziri?

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Aziri?

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Aziri, Aziri.

[00:45:29] [SPEAKER_04]: I would say Aziri, but I think that's probably fine.

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And I wonder if they didn't feel fully Israeli or something and there might be an element

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_03]: of that.

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that note is important there.

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Because there's got to be, I think there's got to be something to it a little bit more

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_03]: than just money.

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Of course, Azerbaijan is neighboured to Iran, sits right on Iran's northwest border.

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_04]: I found that a very interesting, interesting connection there.

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Indeed.

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Because when you look at, like, should we say, spy scandals that involve Americans working

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_03]: for China, it tends to be, you know, those people have some sort of Chinese heritage

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_03]: and maybe don't feel fully American or something.

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, so I suspect there's some element of that in all of this.

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_03]: I could be wrong, but that was my feeling.

[00:46:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Also, surprise, surprise, there's a Russian connection to this too.

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_03]: So apparently there was some Russian intermediaries who would travel to Israel to give payment to

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_03]: those, the accused.

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And I would assume those Russians were working for the Russian intelligence services with

[00:46:39] [SPEAKER_03]: their Iranian counterparts.

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_03]: And this could well have been a sort of joint operation of sorts.

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_03]: So I would not be surprised if more information comes out about that.

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And it kind of reminded me of a plot point that always bothered me in Liburo, my favourite

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_03]: French spy show.

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Because one of the characters operated in Iran, I think, in the first and second series and

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_03]: then ended up operating in Russia undercover unnoticed.

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_03]: And to me, that was just like, yeah, I don't believe that because the Iranians and the Russians

[00:47:09] [SPEAKER_03]: work so closely together that I'm sure if somebody was in Russia who had operated in

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Iran previously and been suspected of being a spy, the Russians would know about it.

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_03]: So that was always an interesting kind of plot point in Liburo that bothered me.

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_03]: But apart from that, you know, total tangent there.

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_03]: But no, fascinating scandal kind of going on at the moment.

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And is it six of them?

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And they were all kind of related to each other.

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Is that right?

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not sure if they were related to each other, but it's seven.

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Seven.

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_04]: I'm not sure if they were directly connected to each other, but they were of a very origin.

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, what are your thoughts on it all?

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Because it's, yeah, a very interesting one.

[00:47:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And kind of a bit in your wheelhouse there.

[00:47:52] [SPEAKER_04]: It's rare that you find instances of Israelis spying for Iran or any nation that is sort

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_04]: of committed to destroying Israel itself.

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_04]: Like you said, it sort of goes, it takes sort of a second step to agree to do that.

[00:48:09] [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, if you're in money on that mice spectrum, I guess there's your reason.

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_04]: It has happened before.

[00:48:18] [SPEAKER_04]: So there's a few instances in 2018, former Israeli energy minister, Gonen Segev, was convicted of spying for Iran.

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_04]: He was recruited in Nigeria, I believe.

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_04]: He provided information on various, you know, strategic systems and stuff.

[00:48:35] [SPEAKER_04]: In 2021, a guy, Omri Gorin, was a household aide at the home of Defense Minister Benny Gantz.

[00:48:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And he offered to spy for the Iranians in exchange for cash.

[00:48:50] [SPEAKER_04]: So again, you know, money on the mice spectrum.

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_04]: He also, yes, he offered to, he offered an Iranian hacker group that he could access Gantz's computer and plant malware on there.

[00:49:03] [SPEAKER_04]: So that would have been quite damaging if he did.

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_04]: Then back in 1997, man, Nahum Manbar was convicted of aiding Iran by selling secrets related to nerve gas production.

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's rare, but it does happen.

[00:49:19] [SPEAKER_04]: I find it interesting in this case, the targeting that seemed to be behind these, you know, intelligence gathering efforts.

[00:49:31] [SPEAKER_04]: It seemed like it was, yeah, gathering information to aid in the targeting for ballistic missile attacks.

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_04]: We aren't really discussing it on the show today, but there was recently on Telegram, there was a few U.S. intelligence assessments from the NGA, the National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, about Israel's efforts to prepare for a counterattack against Iran for the missile attack a few weeks ago.

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_04]: And part of that assessment, it was sort of put out in the open for the first time.

[00:50:03] [SPEAKER_04]: I was sort of really intrigued to see this, like in writing, that Israel has a long range, I guess, stealthy or low observable reconnaissance drone capability at, I think it's Ramon Air Base and the Negev that they've been flying operations to, gathering their own targeting data for their strike, their anticipated coming strike against the Iranians, right?

[00:50:33] [SPEAKER_04]: So, my point then being, you know, Israel, the U.S. has all these sort of advanced technical capabilities to gather this targeting data for their operational planning.

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_04]: The Iranians, however, really don't.

[00:50:45] [SPEAKER_04]: And so they, you know, have to resort to the old-fashioned way, getting people on the ground to gather this sort of information for you.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_04]: So, yeah, I found that interesting.

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, this is sort of a reverse of the Eli Cohen spy, because he was an Israeli spy in Syria, reporting back on Syrian missile and artillery positions, which helped the Israelis survive an attack.

[00:51:13] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's kind of like a reverse Eli Cohen in some respects.

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you're not familiar with Eli Cohen, there's a really great Netflix show called The Spy.

[00:51:23] [SPEAKER_03]: That's Sacha Baron Cohen.

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's it.

[00:51:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I was really impressed with it.

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_03]: The Netflix show with Sacha Baron Cohen is really good.

[00:51:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's, yeah, a really great spy show and quite a sad story, ultimately.

[00:51:37] [SPEAKER_03]: So, and I think it's six episodes, that one.

[00:51:40] [SPEAKER_03]: That was from 2019.

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_03]: So well worth a watch there.

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_03]: So, anyway, let's move into our last break and we'll be right back with more.

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_03]: We're back.

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_03]: So, Matt, you wanted to talk to us about some threats toward FEMA that have been kind of kicking off in North Carolina.

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, so this follows a bunch of issues with Hurricane Helene, which came through the southeastern U.S., devastated big swaths of Appalachia, western North Carolina, Georgia, you know, around the Asheville area.

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_04]: And the slew of conspiracy theories that have propagated up after it.

[00:52:30] [SPEAKER_04]: So now we have some actual instances of potential violence stemming from it.

[00:52:35] [SPEAKER_04]: So, a North Carolina man, William Jacob Parsons, was arrested after allegedly threatening FEMA workers responding to Hurricane Helene.

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_04]: Armed with a handgun and rifle, Parsons was charged with going armed to the terror of the public.

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_04]: I had not heard that charge before, at least described that way.

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_04]: No, no, it was a bizarre one.

[00:52:54] [SPEAKER_04]: It's, I read it before, it took me a second, I was like, wait, what?

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_04]: Okay, I get what that is now, but I've never seen it, I've just never seen it put that way before.

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_04]: Anyway.

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_04]: No.

[00:53:04] [SPEAKER_04]: And his threats led to a temporary suspension of FEMA's door-to-door relief operations.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_04]: Misinformation circulating online exacerbated tensions, leading to public distrust of FEMA and contributing to threats against its workers.

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_04]: The threat of these false narratives has significantly complicated recovery efforts as it prompted further security measures and delayed aid delivery.

[00:53:24] [SPEAKER_04]: In response to Parsons' threat and reports of armed militia groups, FEMA temporarily paused some relief efforts in the affected areas, including parts of Rutherford and Ash Counties in North Carolina.

[00:53:35] [SPEAKER_04]: While some operations resumed shortly after, the delay hindered FEMA's ability to provide timely aid to communities hit hard by the hurricane.

[00:53:42] [SPEAKER_04]: The interruptions in FEMA's operations have delayed the assessment and delivery of aid, especially in the rugged regions of Western North Carolina.

[00:53:50] [SPEAKER_04]: Former FEMA administrator Craig Fugate warned that disruptions to in-person assessments could slow the flow of much-needed funds to hurricane survivors.

[00:53:58] [SPEAKER_04]: North Carolina Governor Roy Cooper and federal officials emphasized the importance of combating misinformation to ensure the safety of disaster response teams.

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Efforts to increase transparency, including posting updates and photos of relief efforts aimed to counter the falsehoods circulating online.

[00:54:14] [SPEAKER_04]: Chris, what did you think?

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, first of all, sadly, big emergencies and conspiracy theories do go hand in hand.

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And this incident with William Jacob Parsons reminded me of Pizzagate a little bit.

[00:54:26] [SPEAKER_03]: The incident in 2016 when that gunman entered the pizza restaurant in DC after reading on the internet that the restaurant was being used by a deep state pedophile ring.

[00:54:37] [SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah, people responding to conspiracy theories is a sort of nasty side effect of people pumping out this nonsense online.

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, basically these conspiracy theorists sort of believe that there's some of them out there who, you know, read something that horrifies them and they kind of become like a vigilante and believe they're doing the right thing.

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And they go and get their gun and go and do something about it.

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm kind of surprised that it hasn't happened more often, to be honest with you.

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm glad it hasn't.

[00:55:05] [SPEAKER_03]: But with the level of conspiracy nonsense out there, I am surprised there have not been more people out there trying to sort of put justice in their own hands.

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And there's been a longstanding conspiracy theory about FEMA going back to the 90s.

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_03]: The idea is that FEMA is some sort of shadow government in waiting and when a disaster hits, they can take over.

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_03]: And this is the plot from the X-Files movie in 1998.

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_03]: That is exactly the conspiracy theory that kind of underpins that movie.

[00:55:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And as fun as the X-Files was in the 90s, now when you look at it, you think, oh my god, it kind of just feeds into this nonsense.

[00:55:44] [SPEAKER_04]: So when we talk about it on here a lot from time to time, how these depictions of things focus on conspiracies and stuff, it pickles people's brains to believe that that's real life.

[00:55:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:55:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was, and I still had this, I was a huge X-Files fan.

[00:55:56] [SPEAKER_03]: So I've got the I Want to Believe poster.

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a, I've got this I Want to Believe poster that's always semi-ironic now.

[00:56:02] [SPEAKER_03]: But that was a huge show for me in the 90s.

[00:56:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And it probably led to me becoming a conspiracy theorist for a few years.

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure in my subconscious it was all there.

[00:56:12] [SPEAKER_03]: And it kind of bubbled up to the surface for a while.

[00:56:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, you know, I'd like to think I'm a reformed conspiracy theorist.

[00:56:19] [SPEAKER_03]: A lapsed conspiracy theorist.

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Or lapsed conspiracy theorist.

[00:56:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, maybe I'm a lapsed one.

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[00:56:24] [SPEAKER_03]: But there we go.

[00:56:25] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll leave you to decide on what the appropriate terminology is there.

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_03]: But so the Carnegie Endowment Group, I was reading about, you know, how conspiracy theories have been weaponized.

[00:56:37] [SPEAKER_03]: The Carnegie Endowment Group stated that past incidents have clearly shown that foreign adversaries have figured out that disasters are kind of fertile ground for undermining faith in the government and dividing Americans.

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_03]: So just a reminder, a lot of conspiracy theories do have their roots in foreign propaganda with the goal to undermine your faith in your government and to divide you.

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And this is the kind of the goal of Russian and Chinese propaganda.

[00:57:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And in 2023, apparently the Chinese government ran a campaign that blamed wildfires in Hawaii on U.S. government funded weather weapons.

[00:57:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Also that year in 2023, a train derailment in Ohio became the focus of a Russian government run campaign through verified bots on X or Twitter, claiming that the U.S. was sending social services to Ukraine before helping people in Ohio.

[00:57:39] [SPEAKER_03]: So obviously in a similar vein, you've got these conspiracy theories about FEMA in North Carolina claiming that FEMA is somehow blocking or seizing vital aid.

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's not true.

[00:57:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And the Carnegie Endowment Group obviously have yet to conduct research on who's responsible for these conspiracy theories.

[00:57:57] [SPEAKER_03]: But they do sound very similar to the foreign-backed campaigns that happened in 2023.

[00:58:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And apparently also, extremist groups like to use disasters to empower themselves and get recruits.

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And there's a great piece I found called Conspiracies Thrive in a Crisis by Amy Westervelt.

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Now, we'll try and get her on in the near future.

[00:58:19] [SPEAKER_03]: In which she noted in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, it spawned white supremacist vigilante groups who were keeping the peace, in quotation marks for people who can't see me.

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_03]: So these people were keeping the peace in New Orleans after the storm.

[00:58:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And then last year, apparently, Oath Keepers have been forming their own little FEMA's, seeing extreme weather events as an opportunity to kind of move in and seize control of an area and get recruits.

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_03]: And then she later noted that conspiracy theories in their multitude of forms don't actually have to make any sense.

[00:58:55] [SPEAKER_03]: All a conspiracy has to do is the thing that scientists, facts and figures cannot.

[00:58:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Tap into the fear and desperation people are feeling and give them a target to hurl it at.

[00:59:05] [SPEAKER_03]: It makes people feel better and less alone.

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_03]: So remember that.

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Conspiracy theories do not have to make sense.

[00:59:12] [SPEAKER_03]: They just need to make people give somebody some sort of target and make you feel better because you could now do something about it.

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah, really, thank you so much for bringing this up because it's such an interesting area.

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And sadly, you know, it's endangering people's lives.

[00:59:28] [SPEAKER_03]: For years, been saying that conspiracy theories are dangerous.

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Because, you know, back in the early 2010s, you kind of laugh off conspiracies and treat your local friend as a bit of an utter.

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, but they mean well.

[00:59:46] [SPEAKER_03]: But now, sadly, it's leading to violence.

[00:59:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And as I said earlier, I'm surprised it hasn't led to more violence.

[00:59:54] [SPEAKER_03]: That's not me saying I want it to lead to more violence.

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I really don't.

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_03]: But I'm surprised by the level of nonsense that is on the internet that more people who have access to firearms haven't kind of gone and done something.

[01:00:05] [SPEAKER_03]: It's sort of a miracle that it hasn't.

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Exactly.

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_03]: And it really worries me.

[01:00:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And it kind of makes me feel a bit guilty about my conspiracy past because I feel like I was a part of this in some way.

[01:00:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, for years afterwards, it really haunted me.

[01:00:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I've kind of like kind of got over it a little bit now.

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_03]: But honestly, you know, it sort of feels like being part of a terrorist organization or something in your past in a way.

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_03]: No, it's that bad.

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_03]: But, yeah.

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_03]: No, it's not quite that bad.

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_03]: But I feel like I'm only a few steps removed from it being my elapsed conspiracy.

[01:00:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:00:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:00:44] [SPEAKER_03]: But it's horrible, really.

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_03]: But anyway, what are your thoughts on all that?

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:00:50] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, any time we get a chance to talk about this stuff, especially with you and your background, I think there's a lot of credibility and honesty that you bring to it.

[01:01:02] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, you don't speak about it in sort of an academic, abstract way.

[01:01:06] [SPEAKER_04]: Like this is like a real you have real experience with this stuff and real firsthand knowledge of what it does to people's brains and how it affects them, how it animates them to believe all kinds of crazy things and why they're so insidious, why they're so addictive, honestly.

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_04]: So it's always very interesting to hear you hear you talk about it.

[01:01:24] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's not.

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_04]: As you sort of said, FEMA has always been a lightning rod for these conspiracies.

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_04]: And that, you know, most of what FEMA's job is probably 60 to 70 percent of what they do is respond to natural disasters.

[01:01:41] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, so if if conspiracies, as you said, yeah, follow natural disasters, if their breeding grounds were natural disasters, it makes sense then that the agency, the federal agency that's tasked with responding to them to coordinating the response to them itself is sort of perpetually always in the crosshairs.

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, in 2005, after Hurricane Katrina, Alex Jones and those type of figures, you know, said that FEMA was using the hurricane as an excuse to take over New Orleans.

[01:02:17] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, there are those conspiracy theories about levees being blown up during the storm that went around all over the place.

[01:02:26] [SPEAKER_04]: It goes back to the 90s, you know, groups like the Michigan militia on the far right said that, you know, FEMA has been planning to set up concentration camps for for Americans to go to.

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's that's that's always been an aspect of of these conspiracies on on the far right.

[01:02:47] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, that FEMA's sort of this new world order kind of shadow government in waiting.

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_04]: Right. That's going to seize control of American society at any moment.

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_04]: And I'm surprised it's taken them so long to do it.

[01:03:02] [SPEAKER_03]: They really are taking their time, aren't they?

[01:03:05] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah. Yeah, really.

[01:03:06] [SPEAKER_04]: It's like how many natural disasters are you going to let come and go before you, you know, snap in the secret secret plan?

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_04]: And, you know, I think the difference.

[01:03:18] [SPEAKER_04]: So these these conspiracies and the people who propagate them have always been out there, right?

[01:03:23] [SPEAKER_04]: They've always been in this in these, you know, fever, fever swamps.

[01:03:29] [SPEAKER_04]: The difference is.

[01:03:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I think the misinformation environment that we're in today, that it's somewhat purposely ginned up and spread with, you know, foreign governments like the Russians and stuff definitely spreading it.

[01:03:46] [SPEAKER_04]: That's new.

[01:03:47] [SPEAKER_04]: The other thing is, you know, Alex Jones and and lunatics clowns like him have always sort of been around.

[01:03:54] [SPEAKER_04]: They weren't in Congress.

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_04]: They weren't one of the major candidates for for for president spreading this stuff.

[01:04:01] [SPEAKER_04]: And I think if there's something that's different about this moment, it's it's it's that.

[01:04:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, yeah.

[01:04:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And how the owner of X.

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:04:10] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, Elon Musk spread so much nonsense now through just a single tweet or do we call it a zeet now?

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know.

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_03]: What do we call it?

[01:04:17] [SPEAKER_03]: A tweet now?

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_03]: I heard a really good one.

[01:04:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I forgot.

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_03]: All right.

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, honestly.

[01:04:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's it's it's painful.

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_03]: It really is.

[01:04:30] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's dangerous.

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And as you said moments ago, it gets exploited by foreign governments now.

[01:04:36] [SPEAKER_03]: And I and I yeah, I'm still fascinated to understand the true origins of a lot of popular conspiracy theories and whether they have their roots in foreign propaganda from the get go or whether foreign propaganda just exploits them.

[01:04:52] [SPEAKER_03]: They certainly exploit them at the moment.

[01:04:54] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, with the whole FEMA thing, you can see why so many people got all upset about kind of covid and thought, oh, my God, this is it.

[01:05:01] [SPEAKER_03]: FEMA are taking over.

[01:05:02] [SPEAKER_03]: And we've all you know, those of us who survive covid and I'm grateful that we have.

[01:05:08] [SPEAKER_03]: We're not in a FEMA concentration camp.

[01:05:10] [SPEAKER_03]: No.

[01:05:10] [SPEAKER_03]: For fuck's sake.

[01:05:10] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, unless they pulled some major kabuki.

[01:05:14] [SPEAKER_03]: We're in the matrix.

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:05:15] [SPEAKER_04]: We're in the matrix.

[01:05:16] [SPEAKER_04]: FEMA FEMA built the matrix and we don't even know.

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:05:19] [SPEAKER_03]: It is all like a figment of our imagination, which is just a load of nonsense.

[01:05:23] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:05:23] [SPEAKER_04]: We could we could crank up some serious ad dollars if we started saying that.

[01:05:28] [SPEAKER_04]: The truth.

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, my God.

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah.

[01:05:32] [SPEAKER_03]: The truth.

[01:05:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Such a loaded word these days.

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:05:36] [SPEAKER_03]: There we go.

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, again, thank you for bringing that up.

[01:05:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Bring that up.

[01:05:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And is there anything else you want to add on that?

[01:05:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Or are you happy?

[01:05:42] [SPEAKER_04]: No, it's just sort of amazing to me that this is the only instance of someone pushing it so far that that we're aware of someone pushing it so far that they were actually arrested by by law enforcement.

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_04]: It seems like where the where the guy was arrested, he was in the parking lot of a facility that was being used to sort of coordinate and distribute aid.

[01:06:08] [SPEAKER_04]: So potentially and he was, you know, arrested.

[01:06:10] [SPEAKER_04]: He was armed with a handgun and a rifle.

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_04]: It could have been a very bad, very bad situation that we potentially avoided.

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:06:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, yeah.

[01:06:16] [SPEAKER_03]: So FEMA and ATF.

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Those were the two.

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_03]: One of some of the most hated, hated federal organizations.

[01:06:23] [SPEAKER_03]: And obviously the Edward R. Murrow building of was it 1996 that was targeted?

[01:06:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Was it was ATF?

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_03]: They were specifically he was Timothy.

[01:06:33] [SPEAKER_03]: They was there was an ATF field office, I believe, that was in that was in that was in the building.

[01:06:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:06:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And was it they he was targeting?

[01:06:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Was he just targeting the federal government by targeting that building?

[01:06:42] [SPEAKER_04]: I think the ATF was certainly a sweetener, probably a reason.

[01:06:46] [SPEAKER_04]: I forget the details of the of of Timothy McVeigh's planning for it off my head.

[01:06:52] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, it's it's a federal building.

[01:06:54] [SPEAKER_04]: It's a symbol of the federal government, you know, that was in the area.

[01:06:57] [SPEAKER_04]: It was.

[01:06:58] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[01:06:59] [SPEAKER_04]: I believe that.

[01:07:01] [SPEAKER_04]: That ATF office was involved in the response to Waco.

[01:07:05] [SPEAKER_03]: That's it.

[01:07:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's correct.

[01:07:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's it.

[01:07:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And obviously that X-Files movie I mentioned earlier riffs off all of that with its, you know, use that federal building explosion as kind of inspiration for their plot, which I don't know.

[01:07:23] [SPEAKER_03]: When you look at it now, I kind of think, well, shit, that's a bit sick, isn't it?

[01:07:26] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, it has movies.

[01:07:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Back then, back then we lived in a time where you could where movies were still seen as fiction.

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Whilst nowadays we kind of live in a weird age where a lot of people seem to think the movies are fictional movies are somehow reflective of fact.

[01:07:40] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, that's my problem with it when it's when that's the only depiction of these agencies of this of these kind of efforts that are depicted in pop culture.

[01:07:51] [SPEAKER_04]: And we've so demonstrated again and again and again that people are just I mean, if people were capable of separating the two and being like, no, that's a silly, dumb, entertaining movie.

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_04]: That's one thing.

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, this is real life.

[01:08:01] [SPEAKER_04]: And it's something different.

[01:08:03] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, that would be one thing.

[01:08:04] [SPEAKER_04]: But people it's been shown, I think, are just not capable of differentiating the two.

[01:08:08] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's that's a problem.

[01:08:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I think it is a problem.

[01:08:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's definitely a problem of our time.

[01:08:13] [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, you could put it down to education, but it's so many things.

[01:08:16] [SPEAKER_03]: But I think if you pump out because movies are so powerful, if you pump out enough of the same sort of story, it has an effect on you.

[01:08:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think, you know, obviously, there are real scandals that people kind of use as sort of to back up what they believe.

[01:08:36] [SPEAKER_03]: But ultimately, when you really look into the nitty gritty of how agencies work and stuff, it's nowhere near the conspiracy theories.

[01:08:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Because like with the CIA, a lot of conspiracy theorists think that they have this sort of ability to know all and see all.

[01:08:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And we've seen many occasions where that clearly isn't the case.

[01:08:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think one of the interesting things is the conspiracy theories probably give way too much credit to the CIA.

[01:09:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Certainly, Middle Eastern conspiracy theories about the CIA give way too much credit.

[01:09:06] [SPEAKER_03]: Some of the things I've heard, you know, it's like, wow, you really do think they're that good.

[01:09:13] [SPEAKER_03]: And there are very good secret operations that do happen.

[01:09:17] [SPEAKER_03]: But there are plenty that don't.

[01:09:18] [SPEAKER_03]: And there's been plenty of fuck ups.

[01:09:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And ultimately, most agencies are only as good as the people who work for them.

[01:09:24] [SPEAKER_03]: But I think this idea that the federal government is somehow secretly working to undermine everything is just far right nonsense that kind of has been, you know, through, should we say horseshoe adopted by the far left, far right?

[01:09:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:10:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think this idea is something that I've heard from people, especially when people don't read.

[01:10:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And God, I was at the London Film Festival just a week ago.

[01:10:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Met a man who wants to write a spy movie.

[01:10:17] [SPEAKER_03]: And I asked him, had he read any nonfiction?

[01:10:20] [SPEAKER_03]: And he misheard me and said to me, oh, I've read Casino Royale.

[01:10:24] [SPEAKER_03]: And I said, no, no, no.

[01:10:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Have you read any nonfiction?

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_03]: No.

[01:10:27] [SPEAKER_03]: So why do you want to write a spy movie?

[01:10:29] [SPEAKER_04]: It's just like, how are you going to write about something when you don't know a damn thing about it?

[01:10:32] [SPEAKER_04]: I know.

[01:10:33] [SPEAKER_04]: And he didn't.

[01:10:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And if he's listening right now, I apologize for using you as an example.

[01:10:38] [SPEAKER_04]: But honestly, if you're listening right now, get a hold of us and I will give you an extensive reading list.

[01:10:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I did.

[01:10:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Bless him.

[01:10:49] [SPEAKER_03]: I gave him a short but pointed reading list for what he wants to do a thing about.

[01:10:54] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, but it's just it seems to be the natural reflex when you want to write a movie about spies.

[01:11:02] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just don't read anything about spies.

[01:11:05] [SPEAKER_03]: And you didn't do the work.

[01:11:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:11:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[01:11:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And it just strikes me as a bit odd that that's the natural reflex.

[01:11:11] [SPEAKER_03]: I remember when I studied, when I used to teach a little bit at a drama school, I used to give advice to you.

[01:11:16] [SPEAKER_03]: I said, look, if you've been cast as a police officer, don't go and watch endless movies about the police.

[01:11:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Go and find some documentaries.

[01:11:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Hell, try and find a police officer through a family or friends connection if you can.

[01:11:30] [SPEAKER_03]: But if not, at least watch some actual documentaries or maybe read a biography of a police officer that's recent or of the period that you're in.

[01:11:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Because so many students would reflexively go and find like lethal weapon or something.

[01:11:44] [SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I do this with the novels all the time, right?

[01:11:46] [SPEAKER_04]: There's tons of there's tons of stuff in the interagency policy process.

[01:11:51] [SPEAKER_04]: You know how things bubble up through the National Security Council and stuff that is just going to be really, really boring to read in a in a in a thriller.

[01:11:59] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, there's tons of people that are involved who have very big egos and opinions and things to say that drag these processes out all the time.

[01:12:08] [SPEAKER_04]: It's literally why in the novels I have the vice president campaigning for president so that I have a standing excuse to explain why he's not in this meeting.

[01:12:17] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, because I just didn't want to, you know, if I have something that I need him to do, I can put him in the room.

[01:12:22] [SPEAKER_04]: If not, he doesn't need to be here because he has he's he's off campaigning.

[01:12:26] [SPEAKER_04]: Right.

[01:12:29] [SPEAKER_04]: There's there's a definitely a degree of of compression and and simplification and just things that need to be sort of punched up and tweaked for entertainment value.

[01:12:40] [SPEAKER_04]: You know, because at the end of the day, when you're writing one of these thrillers or something, it's not a documentary like it's supposed to entertain people no matter how accurate you want it to be.

[01:12:47] [SPEAKER_04]: But you have to first know you have to know what's real and how it actually is before you're able to effectively and responsibly take an artistic license and make those changes.

[01:12:59] [SPEAKER_04]: And that's what like the person who you were describing, who if you're listening, I don't I don't say this as it as a as a mean way.

[01:13:06] [SPEAKER_04]: No, literally, if you are interested in doing this, get in touch with us and we'll, you know, say here's where to start.

[01:13:13] [SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, you have to you have to do the work for us before you're able to know when and how to and where to to cut those to cut those corners to make it entertaining.

[01:13:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.

[01:13:26] [SPEAKER_03]: But this is the kind of stuff you get an extra shot.

[01:13:27] [SPEAKER_03]: So if that's not an advert for extra shot, I don't know what it is.

[01:13:31] [SPEAKER_03]: But but there we go.

[01:13:33] [SPEAKER_03]: But well, talk about extra shot.

[01:13:34] [SPEAKER_03]: We probably should move to that now.

[01:13:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So so if you want to do if you do want to listen to extra shot, we will be looking at US fusion cells who assisted in Israel's hunt for Hamas leaders.

[01:13:44] [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to be looking at a potential North Korean nuclear submarine, the secret X-37B shuttle preparing for a novel space maneuver and the retirement of the EP-3E spy plane.

[01:13:56] [SPEAKER_03]: So if you want to listen to extra shot, just click on the link in the show notes or go to patreon.com forward slash secrets and spies and pick the level that works for you.

[01:14:07] [SPEAKER_03]: And then you'll be directly supporting this podcast.

[01:14:09] [SPEAKER_03]: But anyway, thank you very much for listening today.

[01:14:12] [SPEAKER_03]: And I hope you all have a wonderful weekend.

[01:14:14] [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, just stay safe out there and make sure you get yourself a pumpkin spice latte because they're finishing.

[01:14:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes.

[01:14:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Take care, buddy.

[01:14:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you.

[01:14:25] [SPEAKER_03]: Bye.

[01:14:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for listening.

[01:14:42] [SPEAKER_02]: This is secrets and spies.