[00:00:00] Announcer: Due to the themes of this podcast, listener discretion is advised. Lock your doors, close the blinds, change your passwords. This is Secrets and Spies. Secrets and Spies is a podcast that dives into the world of espionage, terrorism, geopolitics, and intrigue. This podcast is produced and hosted by Chris Carr. [00:00:37] Chris Carr: On today's podcast, I'm joined by author and researcher Ross Downing, and we discuss his book, Germanic and Slavic Paganism: Security Threats and Resiliency, which examines how Paganism connects in both Russian and Ukrainian culture. And it also looks at the role Pagan extremism plays in Russia's war on Ukraine. On this episode we have a visual section which will be exclusive for YouTube, and we'll be looking at the Pagan symbols used by Russian and Ukrainian forces, so those listening to the audio only version may want to join us on YouTube for that section. I hope you find this episode interesting. Thank you for watching. Thank you for listening. Take care. [00:01:11] Announcer: The opinions expressed by guests on secrets and spies do not necessarily represent those of the producers and sponsors of this podcast. [00:01:36] Chris: Ross, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you on. [00:01:39] Ross Downing: Cheers. Good to be here. [00:01:40] Chris: We're gonna talk about your book, Germanic and Slavic Paganism: Security Threats and Resiliency. So I wanted to ask you a little bit about, so what motivated you to create this book? It's quite a niche topic, and then what conversations you hoped it would spark, [00:01:53] Ross: as you say, it's, it is very niche. Um, so the conversations we wanted to spark really was to, to draw attention to the fact that this isn't just about the religions themselves, but a lot a a about the fact that it ties into a lot of the kind of worrying and disorientating social and geopolitical, uh, issues that we've got going on in the last, certainly the last 15 years. Right. Um, so, uh, my motivation was that I was asked, I was asked to do it, uh, by Inform, which is a UK non-profit. Educational charity, educational charity, um, I don't represent them, so I encourage people to look, look them up themselves. So I don't misrepresent what they're, but my, my understanding of, of what they're, and what they do is that they were set up in the eighties, um, with funding from Parliament to be a scientific, sociological resource for understanding new religious movements or specifically minority religions that at the time would be in discuss whether they were cults or not. So the, the whole remit of inform is to mitigate social harms, either to minority religions or from minority religions. So they have an educational remit, which is in, in part what the book is an extension of, to, to help educate people that these minority religions are in often in part. Full of Normies normal people, but that there is something about them that is either associated with, or there's a wing of that religious movement that, that is harmful. Um, so that, that's what inform is about. And amongst the many things that they do, they've released about two dozen academic books over the years. I think it was mainly on, on route last year. They started a new series on Bloomsbury, which I believe, I believe the new series is called Religion at the Boundaries. And the first one was about sociology and the second one, sorry, not sociology, Scientology. It's a big difference. Yes. You don't wanna get those two big stuff, uh, although, although they probably see those two things are similar. Um, but, but yeah. And, and my, my book is the second and that is, um, that came out December, January now, and it's focused on two related religions, neopagan religions, and we can get onto to what they're, um, a little bit later. But, but yeah. So my objective there is to, as is in the subtitle there, to, to look at what the actual security threats are and to also, um, come to some kind of conclusion about how we can make these non-REM of. Infiltration appropriation, that kind of thing. [00:04:52] Chris: Yeah. And how's the [00:04:53] Ross: book [00:04:53] Chris: been received [00:04:54] Ross: so far? Generally pretty good. But because, as you say, it's a niche subject, it's, it's got less traction than I think as if, as if we would've done it just about neoism, for instance, because the focus is on the religious aspect and inform is a, is a educational research body focused on religions. So by its nature, if you're looking at minority religions, you're gonna have probably a minority impact. But what we try to push out in the, in the book is that it, this issue that comes up in the book with security threats is much larger than the religious groups themselves. Mm mm But we can get onto [00:05:37] Chris: that. Perhaps in a, in a little bit. Yeah. No, indeed. Well, thank you for that. So for listeners unfamiliar with contemporary Paganism, predominantly Germanic and Slavic inspired ones, how would you describe what they are today and what distinguishes them from older pagan revivals? [00:05:52] Ross: Okay, well that's probably three, two or three questions. Loaded, loaded. One there for you. So to briefly summarize two religions, um, well, well firstly, if we say that they're not a religion, so generally speaking, the majority of people will see neo paganism as a single religion, but they're not. Um, neopagan is a, is a type of religion or what we call in, in academia religiosity. So you could also say it's not necessarily just about religion, it's also about kind of spirituality or identifying with a certain kind of way of living, a way of being. So, um. The two religions. The reason why we put, if we were to, just to examine if it, okay, lemme put it this way. If it wasn't for the war in Ukraine, we would've just focused on Germanic neo paganism. Mm mm Because of the domestic issues that have been around since, yeah. Since the 1930s and forties. But what, what we have to do because of the remit of inform, is to deliver something that is extremely up to date. And what we were seeing was that there was now a gap in academia in that there's been so much focus on the Germanic aspects. Um, sorry. The Germanic pa, Neo paganism, and its relationship with Neoism. Then it missed all the stuff that's been going on because of the war. And this is now we get into geopolitics, solak. Neo Paganism is rampant in Russian special forces and security services and it has been for a long time. Um. And that's possibly because of its relationship with Ethnonationalism. Um, it's also the same religion is also, is also very much at the forefront of the best known military formations in, in Ukraine. So the what's now called the as of movement, which is kind of broader than the, the as of units, which I think is now a, a brigade. It's, it started off as a, as a minor detachment and became a battalion and regiment, et cetera. But now it's a full on brigade. A lot of them, or at least the core group, were far right Slavic pagans. So in Slavic Paganism, which is almost entirely only exists in Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, and Poland. So the Slavic countries, if you like. There's a, a very important element to that, which borrows from Germanic neo paganism, and. Neoism, which has always been, had this relationship with neo, neo paganism. So it's been impossible for us to disassociate those two religions. And also because the, the lessons that the Russian state has learned by handling and having, just generally having domestic experiences with far right neo paganism in its own country. It's used those lessons to inform and shape its weaponization of narratives and different disinformation on rightwing populism and rightwing extremism in the west. [00:09:07] Chris: Yeah, because I remember, I remember when the Euro maiden protests were going on, there was a lot of Russian propaganda claiming that the Ukrainians were far right in neo-Nazis and even in the buildup to the recent war Yeah. As well. That they were sort of doing that. Yeah. So is this all kind of connected to that? [00:09:22] Ross: It's, and it's quite unpopular for, for, for reasonable motivations. The Ukrainians have some issues with neoism. It's much more complicated than just saying that. Um, and obviously to, to say that would reinforce the Putin regime disinformation campaign that, that focuses on deification. And one of, I think one of the reasons why they, they Russians latched onto this narrative of deification was because the, the major group was this, as of that was pushing for nationalist, um, detachment from Russian imperialism was this neo-Nazi or right wing nationalist movement called the as of movement. And they also became, um, a lot of them neopagan and they were also at the tip of the spear in the defense, in the steelworks there. So Russians decided, I think if they, if they can focus on breaking the as of unit, then they've, they've potentially broken the, the Ukrainian defense and we can therefore deify them. But there's, it also gets a little bit complicated because the word, the, the, the Russian, as I understand that I'm not an expert on, on Russian language, but from my understanding of what I've reports that I've read, the term for Nazi in the Russian, in Russian narratives is basically just anyone that is an opponent to, to Russia. It's like the, it's almost like we would use the word like terrorists to, to say anybody that is against, um, the establishment here [00:11:05] Chris: in Russia as well, like with Putin and, and, um, Putinism, he seems to be kind of co-opting the Russian Orthodox Church. And I was just wondering how that kind of relates into all of this. [00:11:16] Ross: Yeah. There's this, the, the biggest, he's, he has to. You know, um, walk a fine line there because he is dependent on what we call the ROC, the Russian Orthodox Church. Um, so there is reports, there are reports, uh, not least from Ukrainian, um, security analysis, not all State run. A lot of them have been, um, private sector. Um, and one of the guys that did one of those major reports is actually a contributor in the book, and that specifies goes into detail about the way the Russian State used the ROC as a kind of espionage and, and PSYOPs, um, propaganda machinery in Ukraine, uh, for the last few decades. But also obviously it was a major concern for the Ukrainians when they, they realized they had to dismantle that whole infrastructure after 2022. Um. So the ROC line is that the, it's very ethnonationalist and it's very, it's, it's also, it, it's very similar to Christian nationalism in states, actually. Mm-hmm. So traditional values, anti-abortion, anti homosexuals, um, very much based on the, the idea of Slavic Eastern European blood. Also supremacy over ethnic minorities in what was the former Soviet Union, which is now the Russian Federation. And by extension, therefore the Russian Orthodox Church and race really should have hemo over, uh, Ukraine and even b some listeners. Ideolog called Alexander Dugan, who is, or is kind of like the Steve Bannon of for Putin. He's, he's an extremist who is also a philosopher and academic like Steve Bannon. Um, and he, he's laid out books since the nineties where he, he also goes into a great deal of emphasis about the, about neoism or rather what Neopagan ties, paganism ties into, which is these cultural nar heritage narratives where blood and land and traditional values are tied into, um, kind of natural religion. But you also get this, this odd kind of, I, it's hypocrisy, but it's almost like ave dissonance where they acknowledge. Traditional Christianity at the same time as they acknowledge this neo paganism. So you see that in Andes Gravy as well. He had to, to juggle that. It is, his people won't be familiar with his manifesto, but I'm, and he, he, he, he's very much focused on Templars and Christianity and everything, but he's since now and there was a lot of paganism in there, but now he's full on anti-Christian and very pagan. He's full on pagan. So there's a bit of a progression there. Um, but all of these things are on a spectrum and they don't really make a hell of a lot of. Where you might say rational sense or logic a lot of the time. Mm. But yeah, so, so to be, to reduce this to a, to a basic answer, yeah. The Russian Orthodox Church is in there and it has a difficult relationship with neo paganism. Yeah. [00:14:53] Chris: Yeah. Thank you for that. So the, but your book covers, uh, pagan presence on both sides of the Ukraine War. What have you found out about how pagan narratives are used or mobilized, either in support of democracy or authoritarianism? [00:15:06] Ross: Yeah, this is another potentially provocative, uh, thing to say. Ukraine is going through a process of Westernization. There are probably less neo that are involved in neopagan ideas now, in the male population. There are two reasons for that. One is that a lot of them are getting killed, and another reason is that they are, they have a, they have more western troops or multiethnic foreign fighters in their units. Um, and we've seen that progress as well. So maybe back at the beginning of the war and in the earlier parts of the war, after the, after the Crimean phase of the war, you had these neo-Nazi units like the, as of, um, battalion as it was then, but kind of neo-Nazis. But they also had their, their best mate in the photos was a Muslim guy that got recruited or joined from Cheep or Assyria. So there was like, we were wondering like, what, what's going on here? So I think what we saw there was a process, uh, progress where we are now, as you say, the, there's a big motivation now for these former neo-Nazi or kind of semi neo-Nazi to be more democratic and what will not, I think, get disappear from these guys. The ethnonationalism aspect, but that doesn't mean that they're gonna be rampant Nazis. But I think what we're gonna see, however the war goes, is that you will not be able to take the extremism out of these guys. And the reason for that is, is what I was saying before about cosmic thinking is the term we use in academia. So for the Ukrainians, um, this is a war of, of existential survival, and it's very easy for them to see Ukraine as a sacred ideal. The actual territory is sacred. And when you get into that territory, it's very, very difficult, difficult to, to remove that from your ideology. So unless Russia completely seeds all of its territory, there's no way in my view that we're, we're not gonna have an issue with. Pagan influence and extremists or militants and actual pagan extremist militant units, which is what we've got now. And I think that's a popular idea. It works, it really motivates a lot of these soldiers. And that's, so that means that it's likely to con continue. The, the Russian aspect is a, is a little bit more complicated, um, because it's, well, it's perhaps not completely complicated, it's just, it's just inverse from the Ukrainian aspect. So it's about aggression, it's about superiority, it's about imperialism, it's about saying that, well, we have a right to Ukraine and we are the act, we are the true inheritors of the Kiev Russ. So Kiev Rus is the pagan, uh, state that was formed in the Middle Ages by Scandinavian Vikings who settled Kiev a with the sls. And that is why Slavic neo paganism has this strong geo neo Germanic neopagan element to it. Mm. When Putin had his chat with Tucker Carson, he started by saying, I'm just gonna correct you there for two minutes. And then he had a monologue for about half an hour, very Putin. And he put a very Putin and his, the, the first part of that was all about paganism the mood to Christianity and how all about Kiev Russ, and about how Ukraine is a borderland to the Rus state of Russia. So, as I said, you, you've got a lot of these ethno nationalists and pagan extremists in the Russian special forces in security services in the intelligence apparatus because. The warrior ideal of paganism lends itself quite strongly to defending my people, defending my land, my heritage, all of that kinda stuff. So it, it's, it's a very good motivational force for, for warfare and for fighting, and that's what we see, see, play out, um, in the. Wagner Group takes its name from the original commander of the unit. Um, his name was Kin and his call sign his, his kind of code name was Wagner because he was a Nazi. So you had that, that relationship with, you know, Wagner and operas and, and flight of the Bies and Nazis and stuff. So he had the Nazi tattoo and he, he called himself Rod Nri, um, uh, back religiously. So he was a, a Slavic pagan. So he was very, he very much encouraged all the commanders of the units to be Rod Nri, to be Slavic Pagans and Neo Nazis. So, um, they, the Waner group was at the spearhead of the Russian side, and they were fighting against the as of units, which were also ex Neo, well neo-Nazis, semi neo-Nazis, progress, progressing neo-Nazis and also neo pagans. So, as I said before, you get this kind of sense of a war, a holy wolf against heretics on both sides. [00:20:41] Chris: We've touched upon this a bit, but how does Pagan identity function differently in Ukraine compared to Russia, especially given their shared but diverging Slavic cultural history? [00:20:52] Ross: Not much different. I would say the, the war has shaped things a little bit like we talked about the social media to extremes. So as, as you mentioned before, you've got the Russian Orthodox Church is extremely powerful in Russia on a social and cultural level. So Russian people are perhaps not entirely empathetic or sympathetic to Russian neopagan. They, but they're probably aware of it and they're probably aware that it's, it's fairly big. Because, because news reports and because Russia, the Russian Orthodox Church has also made public statements about that, that they see this problem of pagans in, in the, um, security and defense apparatus in Ukraine, it's quite a different story, and in Poland and to some degree Belarus. Um, but certainly if we look at the Ukrainian situation, the relationship of the common people and media, et cetera, and the way they see neo pagans has been exacerbated by the war. But it, that relationship still also exists in Poland a little bit. And perhaps there's also been an, that's also been affected by the sense that the war, you know, the, but the, the concept in Ukraine of the common people is torch. Sorry. Cultural heritage and our narratives and our identity. So there's a lot of empathy for neopagan and neo paganism. They're not seen as so much as weirdos and eccentrics, and they're not pushed out of, they're not as consider as pariahs in the same way as perhaps they, Neil Pagans have been seen in, in, in modern history in Europe, in western Europe. [00:22:43] Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Because when you talk about pagans, a lot of people think of the wickerman or something and it's, uh, yeah, yeah, [00:22:51] Ross: yeah. And I, and I think that was to some extent possibly the way Neopagan were seen in Ukraine, in the, in the nineties. Mm-hmm. But in Ukraine, they really love their folk culture now, their folklore, um, their folk dresses and their folk music and their folk festivals. So when you've got Neopagan doing their little ritual at the folk festival. For the common Ukrainians, like, yeah, good. At least somebody's keeping the old religion alive and now I'm gonna go off and drink beer and watch this folk band in the, in the marquee. So it becomes, as I said before, part of the, the spectrum of cultural heritage narratives as it's in Ukraine. It's much more accepted than it is in in Russia. Thank you for that. Well, let's take a break and be [00:23:35] Chris: right back with more. So with regards to paganism, why do you think the traditions are so often misunderstood or misrepresented, whether it's in media or in policy circles? [00:24:02] Ross: There isn't much of a policy perspective on this at all. There's no real need that hasn't been seen any need to yet, probably because. They, they see neo pagans as kind of hippies, so not real. Or I think the closest they get to, to having created, created any social issues was the, their association with, um, travelers in the past, when Neo Paganism occurs as a security threat, as a part of Neoism, it's not understood as neo paganism. It's perceived as, as just really part of Neoism. And that's something that I'm, my, my network is, is really trying to educate people in security studies and practitioners and policy and also academia on, is that we're actually dealing, dealing with what I think we could call pagan extremism. So in the same way as Jihadists don't represent all of Islam, they're still Islamic extremists, they're still part of the spectrum of the religious ideology. Yeah. We have this problem in the West though, that we define right wing extremism by its very definition, by the name as political. So soon as you see anything spiritual in there, whether it's reli, whether it's Christian or, or paganism, you just kind of cognitively disassociate that and, and say, well, that's nots spiritual. They're, they're, they're pol, they're a political movement. And that's, that's led to a lot of misses and misdiagnoses and trace on a lot of these extremists because they often also focus, specifically, they camouflage their, their hatred in religious and spiritual language. Mm. [00:25:47] Chris: One of the themes that stood out is how the, these paganism sort of reflect wider social anxieties about sort of land belonging and history. Can you talk just a little bit about that? [00:25:56] Ross: I would, I would go back to what I've just said about it, line on spectrum really, so mm-hmm. And also what I said about how it ties together with these geopolitical. That we've seen and these, this, this sense that there's something happening in, certainly in the west in domestic policy. And certainly when you see it reflected in, you know, top politicians, world, politicians like Vance, when he literally addresses the western security infrastructure, uh, saying you have a problem, domestic problem with values and immigration. So I'd say that neo paganism relies on a spectrum of what I call cultural heritage narratives. So ne neo paganism and neoism are part of that spectrum, but also the appeal of, of these narratives about who am I. Who belongs in my country, what makes us our country and what is right to what is the right state for our country to be in is, is based on these kind of romantic ideas that aren't really based on history or knowledge. They're based on feelings and sentiment. And it's those same narratives, those same, um, not quite fantasies, but romantic imagery that, that inspire neopagan. So to extend this a little bit further, one thing we see in is there's a, there's a, there's a theory or a model that when a social group perceives itself to be going through existential threats, they tend to split off from some of the institutional. Ideolog and start talking about things in terms of heresy so that they have this special knowledge and that if only people to listen to them, they could correct the cosmos. So we have this term in academia about cosmic thinking or cosmic warfare where people see the entire, entire, their entire worldview, society, gay rights, immigration, um, uh, economic inequality. All of that gets reduced to this semi-religious ethno-nationalism. And when you look at jihad. Very rarely is it a theological, a purely theological and spiritual issue. It's generally tied into socioeconomics, into immigration, colonialization, globalization. Um, ethnonationalism is a big one and organized crime. There's very few Islamic extremists are experts in Islamic theology. And this is where this thing, this issue with Neoism when neo-Nazi comes in is there's a lot of feeling, there's a lot of romantic ideas about who we are and what is right and then that in informs people's sense of righteousness in. Basically being hateful or at least being socially divisive. Yeah. [00:29:30] Chris: Thank you for that. You also write about the persistence of warrior archetypes, especially in Germanic and s Islamic traditions. Um, how has this image being used and sometimes abused in far right narratives? [00:29:41] Ross: I'll unfairly pick you up from what you said there. 'cause it, people do say this and it, and it's a, it's misleading. You, you said traditions. These aren't, these aren't traditions. These are completely modern inventions. These two, these and all neopagan are modern inventions. Mm. But you, you're right in, in what you're saying there, that they all neopagan iss are intended to be a kind of revival. That's how they see themselves. Germanic and Slavic, neo paganism are attached to this trope at its core, a a romantic trope that we are kind of Viking, pagan warriors. And to, to contrast that with other neo paganism that came before. So the two big ones was Druids. Um, these, these, these and, and Wicker. So both Druid, Druids and Wicker kinda shaped people's prejudices about what Neo paganism is. So Druidry was kind of ethno nationalistic in that it emerged from, mainly from the Celtic regions of Britain in the 18 hundreds. But there was a big focus on ritual and slightly older middle class and upper middle class guys, you know, bids and educations and Antiquarianism and Celtic mysticism. So it wasn't really an ethnonationalism that was aggressive. It wasn't like a, you know, a real hatred for the Englishman. It was more, you know, back to our roots, Merlin and, and. Celtic Neopagan doesn't have much brave heart in it. It's, it's more, it's more Merlin and Stonehenge. Right. And it was very much informed by, or shaped by Freemasonry. Well, the aesthetics of Freemasonry Wicker emerged in the forties in the uk and its trope rather than Merlin was very feminine. And this idea of, uh, we've been oppressed for centuries by the patriarchy and we've been misunderstood as satanists, but it's not black magic. It's actually green magic or white magic. And it's not, it's not magic. It's, uh, folk medicine and things like that and really got exported globally. Was very popular because of its, um, emphasis on, on witches, on, on feminism. It became very popular amongst, you know, golf girls. And, you know, the, that that image of the pentagram, which is like, is the, one of the core images of wicker has shaped what people think. Paganism is having nineties flashbacks. Exactly, yeah. You yeah. Shown your age there, mate. Uh, exactly. So, um, geo neo opinion has exploded globally now. It's kind of eclipsed eclipse wicker on the global stage, um, because of the internet and as, as, as you rightly say the, the, the trope there, the differences. It's not romantic mysticism, it's not feminine, introverted sensual spirituality and crystals and things. It's a warrior archetype. Now the majority of of. Germanic Neopagan and even Slavic neopagan are not hateful. They're inclusive and they are, they believe in democratic values. But the earliest forms of Germanic and Slavic, Neo paganism were grounded, generally speaking in the thirties, amongst ethno nationalists, amongst neo-Nazis, basically. And therefore, they've inherited a lot of the ideological baggage. So even though they're constantly trying to purge neo-Nazis from their ranks, it's that challenge is, is a, is bigger than the sum of its, of, of its parts as a community. And that's something we get to in the conclusion of the book, really. Um, the, so the main issue is if you've got a religion that's focused on a trope of, of warrior, and even the mainstream version of your religion focuses on ancestry and nature. And as a religion, you don't really have a clergy. You don't have a, um, written canon, you don't have Bible. Um, you're leaving yourself wide open for ancestry and nature to become about blood and soil. And the warrior thing is not just you. Being somebody who has pride and honor and takes care of your family and, and, you know, helps a granny across the road. It also can lean quite strongly, easily get manipulated into we have to defend our nation from Muslims and woke. That's where, where we are today. [00:34:35] Chris: Yeah. It's interesting you bring that last bit up about, uh, woke and things. I was just like, I was thinking about the American Frontier mythology that seems to be becoming increasingly popular in sort of far right circles in the United States. I was wondering if there's any sort of relationships with that hundred percent. Yeah. [00:34:48] Ross: And as I said, these things get all mixed together and that's because of the internet really. Mm-hmm. Um, that's what, what is the, the, the danger of, of the algorithm as you might might call it, is if there's one algorithm that seems to be, you know, polarizing, you know, westley society, um, and, and radicalizing us. Really, that's, that's what it does. So as part of that, I mean, qan on is a classic example of how everything got mishmashed. So one of the terms that goes around in, uh, in academia is cons spirituality. So it's a spin spirituality based on conspiracy theories. So, as I said, you know, you'll, you, you get this mix of neo paganism. Anti-abortion, anti-vaccine, anti COVID, anti-Zionists, anti elites, anti-capitalism, anti-pollution, um, crusader mentality, uh, even a little bit of, um, transexclusionary radical feminism in there. Um, so that's kind of probably why May, maybe J Row, JK Rowling has got radicalized from being fairly normal run of the mill, kind of democratic, progressive feminist, and now being almost conspiratorial in the stuff that she comes out with. And it's possibly even why Musk has ended up the way he has [00:36:11] Chris: as well. Yeah, it's very interesting that, and it's, um, I was just thinking it's sort of like the, it is magpie ideology, stroke spiritualism really, isn't it? People sort of just take a bit of everything and mishmash it into their own sort of personal flavor of things. Yeah, but [00:36:24] Ross: I mean the, the Nazis were doing that as well, right? I mean, um, Neil Nm has. Had a much greater emphasis on neo paganism and tism and things like that. But if you look at neo, uh, sorry. Nazim itself, yes, there was a very important relationship with neo paganism. As neo paganism existed. It was still very, very young at the time, but there's also, and probably even more than paganism, it was very much informed by Christianity. Um, so even the Nazis and certainly neo, neo-Nazi, you know, it's this hodgepodge of, of things that from the outside seem to be very, uh, contradictory. And you now we're in a different stage as well with populism, where to call it far right. Extremism is a misnomer because it's almost mainstream. So is it, is it, is it realistic to call this stuff extremism anymore? Is it realistic to call it far? Right. And is it even right wing when. You've got like gay divisions and Sikh divisions and Jewish divisions in the English Defense League. So what unites them is anti-Islam. So you've got a new wave. The new right isn't really like the neo Nazis, which has this conspiracy of Judaism, um, or, or as I should say, Zionists that are controlling the world. They, a lot of it is, um, it's just, let's get the Muslims out and we live in a democratic society, you know, so Jews are accepted as long as they're westernized in a, in a demo in our democratic soci society, but there's no room for the woke and there's no room for, for Muslims. That's, that's their rhetoric. [00:38:10] Chris: In your book, you explore the distinctions between individuals who are politically right wing racist or radical, but note they're not all the sames. We've sort of just been discussing. So how common or easy is it for someone with right wing interest to be radicalized within the Pagan community? [00:38:25] Ross: I suppose it's sim simple case of mathematics now. So if you've got more people interested in paganism and you've got more people interested in. Anti-establishment and anti-immigration politics, you are gonna have a, a, a much statistically higher chance of people having that overlap. That's the quick answer. So deviate slightly. I wanna bring something up which listeners might find quite central and applicable to, to a lot of things that you talk about on your, on your podcast. When we talk about these social anxieties, right? In term, in response to things like Margo, it's, it's unpopular to talk about this, but this is the reason why we've got the, the polarization and the extremism. I think the majority of people recognize that, that are legitimate concerns amongst what is traditionally called, called the far right. The kind of what used to be the centrist discussion of, okay, well let's look at this question of, of immigration. Let's have a reasonable discussion. Instead, we have to, what used to be called up until maybe five minutes ago, virtual virtue signaling where the center, and certainly the more the progressive and liberal parts of society and politics and media have felt pushed to say we absolutely cannot have that discussion. And that all that is done is as empowered groups like alternative for Deutsche and certainly Marga. Um, and you've got very odd cases now in, in, well, not just in, we, we saw the reason why Trump came to power is because he got a lot of the so-called ethnic minority vote. That's what pushed it over. So you've got, certainly in Europe. This is not really talked about in the mainstream media. I sound like Trump in the mainstream media. Um, it's, it's not popular to talk about the fact that a lot of the people that are voting for these anti-immigration parties are immigrants because a lot of them come from conservative religious and social backgrounds. They have very conservative values. They wanted to get away from a lot of these problems of ethno-nationalism or rather things that challenge their ethno-nationalism in their country and instability. And they wanted to have the freedom to practice their conservative religion. And then they look at, say, ethnic minority gangsters and things like that on the street and say, well, we don't want anything with them. Get rid of them. And so, so maybe as a, as a white person, you might think, well, hang on. What's going on there? That doesn't make any sense. So a lot of my point is that a lot of these things that we used to consider to be classic neoism are now got this question marks over everything. And it's, it's very difficult to to say, um, well, neo pagans are more likely to become neo-Nazis than anybody else because for start, well what is a neo-Nazi? And for start, you know, when you look at the, that guy in the, who mowed people down in Magdeburg, he wasn't a white supremacist, but he had white re rhetoric. But he ex very. Picture, which almost reflects the kind of ideas and symbols and concerns that it, that makes up the internet. It's just a reflection of these short, sharp shocks for getting all the time online. Well, yeah. [00:42:10] Chris: What role does social media play in spreading and reinforcing these more harmful ideas, and does it accelerate the path to radicalization and, you know, prove distortion of pagan beliefs? [00:42:20] Ross: Absolutely. It's everything. It's, it's absolutely everything. Mm-hmm. The growth of Neopagan, if we go back to that, rather than, you know, talking about general geopolitics or social politics in neo paganism, they're, they've exploded demographically because, um, of social media. So it allows people who are more isolated, what would've been isolated in the nineties. Neopagan is still geographically isolated. They, there are no neopagan in their area. So the only way they can feel part of a neopagan community is online. And as I said, the, the problem with neo paganism, certainly the geo, the Germanic and the Slavic, is that there isn't any vetted clergy. They're not trained, there isn't any canon. Um, and it's, it's very much an innovation rather than being focused on, on academic expertise, academic knowledge about the old religion, which it bases itself up. Hmm. So that leaves it very, very vulnerable to bad actors that have a political agenda. And as I said, because these two religions were grounded, were founded in Ethnonationalism and, and fascism, they don't, a lot of the inclusive pagans that are acting out this, these, these discourses on social media. Don't realize that a lot of the core Tess that they have in their religion are leftovers from, from fascist ideas. Mm-hmm. So it's very, very problematic. And then on the neo-Nazi or or the pagan extremist side, they actively use things like runes and pagan rhetoric to hide and disguise and recruit in broad, in broad daylight. And that, for security studies perspective, makes things very difficult because then you need to have a knowledge specialist like me to come in because you, the question would be, okay, are we dealing with pagans or are we dealing with with racist here? And my answer would be, we're dealing with both and you need to move away from the emphasis on politics and instead see this as a, like I said, this cultural heritage narrative spectrum. Thank you for that. [00:44:41] Chris: Well, let's take a break and be right back with more. So, um, is there a danger that well-meaning or culturally motivated pagan groups might inversely echo or enable nationalist extremism, especially in the wartime setting? [00:45:10] Ross: When you say wartime setting, do you mean, are you talking about people that are in the war zone or, [00:45:16] Chris: yeah, yeah. Or or also people looking at the war as well, I suppose. [00:45:21] Ross: Yeah. Well, we had a really interesting situation. If we, if we look at the Germanic side then, and by that I mean the Western pagan community, which is, which is much larger than the Slavic one because as I said, the Slavic one is mainly demographically in the, in the Slavic countries. You had this really interesting situation with the far right pagans. Because the, as ofv movement became quite pol um, publicized and the Russian disinformation camp campaign was also pointing to the, as ofv movement saying, oh, look, the, the independence movement in Ukraine is, is neo-Nazi pagans. You had a lot of neo-Nazi pagans in the west going, oh, we should really support the Ukrainians after the 2022 campaign invasion. There's been a massive switch, so now you've got the far right, there's almost entirely pro pro Putin, and they see Ukraine as puppets to Zionists and all that kind of, you know, conspiracy theory stuff. Neo pagans, the, the majority of western neo pagans, certainly Germanic ones that, that push out neo-Nazis and very hyper aware of, of these anti. Democratic values and voices in their own community, they're constantly on the lookout and trying to push these individuals out and police them. Not very successful I should say, but, um, they're trying to do that. It's, it, one of the flag red flags there is if people start talking about Russia as, as maybe what were they gonna do because NATO was provoking them. If you see that in some of the forums on social media, mainstream Western pagans will go, ah, hang on, we've got a problem here. Um, in the Slavic countries, again, you've got that polarization. Um, so you've got Poland, Polish, pagans, and Ukrainian pagans on one side who are becoming more ethno nationalistic, but not, as I say, not necessarily anti-establishment. Mm-hmm. That's complicated. So the, the reason why is because there's much more sympathy now in eastern Europe as in the westernized elements of east eastern Europe, so Poland and Ukraine for the establishment. So nationalists up until five minutes ago, um, and, and certainly as I say in Western Europe, are very much against the institutions against the establishment in Eastern Europe. Ethno nationalists and neo-Nazi tend to be pro-government, pro nato, and anti-Russian. So there is a difficult sense that the mainstream pagans, which was in Poland. Difficult sense that the mainstream or pagans there are perhaps more open to ethnonationalism because they feel the sense of defense and they're under cosmic threat, if you like. They sit by that. I also mean that they see like Russian disinformation campaigns, vans come into their country and telling them that they're all lunatics for being anti, you know, for not being anti-immigration enough, all that kind of stuff. So they, neo pa, mainstream neo pagans are reflecting mainstream anxieties in the west. The danger of neo pagans becoming mainstream, neo pagans becoming radicalized comes generally speaking from Russian disinformation campaigns. So that's where we are. So I don't, I don't think so much that the Ukraine war itself is directly inspiring British neo pagans to become radicals. [00:49:41] Chris: No, no. I mean I've got, um, one or two friends who do identify as pagan and I'm sure, and some of them might not even be aware of, of some of the things that we've talked about today. So what would you say to someone who's sort of culturally pagan but quite sort of light on the ethnonationalism? [00:50:00] Ross: Same thing as I say to anybody really, is that we have to question the algorithm. So social media is ruining us. It's absolutely ruining us. [00:50:12] Chris: Mm-hmm. [00:50:13] Ross: And for every day there are new forms of extremism that are coming out that are challenging security studies to redefine and red advise policy makers. The hell we should be doing. Um, recap, how do we recategorize certain types of extremism? Um, so one of the current ones is that, that seems to be hot. The press is in the incel movement. Um, and that's perhaps because of the Netflix, uh, miniseries that got people talking. Um, and even in incel and gamer culture, subcultures, discourses, there is again the, these eco fascist, anti COVID, pagan symbolism. A lot of those things are going on. Um, so my, my advice to people that are empathetic or sympathetic to pagans or are mainstream pagans would be to seriously educate yourself on social media. Um, literacy. But I that, that, that applies to wolves. [00:51:28] Chris: Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, I've, yeah, I, I've, uh, witnessed, um, uncles who, who, uh, are, you know, identify as sort of Christian who are relatively well-meaning, but end up sharing memes that are connected to the e dl something, and you're like, oh my goodness. Yeah. What's going on? You know? And, and I don't think they're aware of it, but they, they, they, they kind of like whatever the post the memes about, but they don't realize the kind of, the baggage it draws with it. It's, uh, yeah. A lot of people fall for that, sadly. Well, um, one thing I'd be interesting to talk about is the sort of this sort of divide between focus and inclusive and how does that split play out on the ground? Um, yeah, if you could talk to us bit about that. [00:52:07] Ross: Yeah. So fundamentally that's, that's what's going on when we talk about these, these far, these confusions in these neopagan movements. Um, and these infiltrations about the far right. So not to, not to give a massive history lecture, but. The word focus is common in, certainly in Germanic, neo paganism. It's not used so much in the Slavic countries because it's a Germanic word, but the idea still exists. And the, the English word folkish, uh, comes from the German word vish. And, and vish exists in, well, emerged in nationalism in Germany and became a central part of the Nazi regime ideology. And that idea is blood and soil. So that's almost kind of metaphysical spiritual relationship between my national ethnonationalism, basically. So my, my race, my folk, or my folk is intimately connected to, to my, the states, the nation, and the land that exists now in neo paganism. By virtue of the fact that it's, it was there since the beginning, since the inception of Germanic and Slavic neopagan, mainstream neopagan in those two religions, and I'd say mainstream neopagan in all the different mythologies and all the different branches and religions of, of, of neo paganism are inclusive. So they reflect probably the majority, the same, similar Val values as the majority of the societies where they, they exist. And that is, um, you know, no problem with gays. Women have, should have abortion rights and, you know, the, the right to same equal pay as men, you know, all that kind of stuff. Not to go into too much detail, but that kind of stuff. So where that plays out on the ground is if you say to people in the community, well, I, you, you can be ic. Uh, they use the term heathen or as a true, you, you can be he heathen if you're from Singapore, but you should really look at your own people. That's the focus theology. Now within focus, that focus rhetoric, you've got a spectrum of people that will accept people of color and sexual and gender minorities in the community, but still think that the blood and soil think. And then you've got towards the other end of the spectrum, which is end of the, the spectrum, which is basically they are full on neo-Nazis and they will not accept, um, they were out, they were will on social media and face-to-face. They will physically m. People of, of sexual gender and ethnic minorities when they come to these, these groups, uh, sorry, these, uh, enter these, these, the social media groups or in, in real, real life, uh, rituals and things like that. [00:55:30] Chris: And, um, so what are some of the practical steps that could be taken, whether it be by educators, policy makers, or faith leaders to sort of challenge this growing extremism linked to pagan ideals? [00:55:41] Ross: It, it has to be two-sided. It has to be a, a, a policy and infrastructure concern. And by that I mean, when I say infrastructure, I mean everything to do with the establishment. So, you know, everything from NGOs, more established religions like the, the COE, uh, the Anglican church, this, you know, state church apparatus. Um. Media, all of that needs to be more involved with the mainstream neopagan concerns. But the, the, what we found, we gave about, I think it was like nine steps, nine conclusions or suggestions for, for changes and resolutions in, in, in order to, to reinforce resiliency in these, in these communities. Out of those nine, six of them lay the impetus on, um, on the Neopagan communities. And I think that if Neopagan see these, um, guidelines, they might be a little bit peed off about that and, and feel it, feel it some kind of attack. Um, obviously that is not the intention. The intention is literally to help them survive these social harms, prejudice and infiltration from these, the, these far right ideologies, the reason why it should be a concern for policy. And for media and Soci society is, if, if Neopagan can offer people that are interested in white identity, cultural heritage narratives, who are stressed about immigration, about the loss of traditional values, and the, if they can offer them a democratic community that still fulfills spiritual needs by giving them a sense of belonging and a, um, a relationship with nature that doesn't involve hate speech and, and, uh, conspiracy theories and that kinda stuff, then, then that's great. That's our, that's probably gonna be one of our solutions, right? So PO policy needs to, to pursue that, but it can't do that because there is no infrastructure in the Neopagan communities. They don't, they're not fully organized. They don't have. Physical temples, they don't have trained clergy. They don't really have spokesman. Um, they do rituals in all different places in the country. A lot of them embarrassed about their religion, so people don't generally, you know, talk about it in the workplace. Um, all of that kinda stuff. Now, media has actually, mainstream media has actually been really, really good, I'd say in the West about representing and, um, showcasing mainstream neo paganism. Uh, certainly in the last 15 years, uh, the majority of of articles, uh, have been really good. They, they've, they've highlighted this, this issue of neopagan are perhaps a little bit eccentric, but they're not racist and they have this problem that they're being misunderstood and infiltrated as racist and more needs to be done. So media is really actually quite on board. Um, but Neopagan. As I mentioned earlier, and this is a conclusion that we come to in the book and that will piss off Neopagan, is that I don't think, and all our, the contributors in the book say this, not all of them, majority of them do, are of the opinion that Neopagan have tried to solve their own problems and they, they've tried for decades and it's great that they're trying, but it, the problem is bigger than the sum of their parts and therefore they need to have help from outside. Mm-hmm. They need to seek support from academia in order to create a more coherent and the. Organizational guidance from established religions that have been doing it for 2000 years. Yeah. You know? Yeah. But they don't, they're pagan are terrified of going down that route of the corruption and the institution and on the oppression of, of the Anglican and Catholic churches. They, they don't want to do that. So that's, that's why things aren't gonna change. [01:00:18] Chris: Yeah. One random bonus question I just thought of, you have to pay extra for that. Is there, um, have you seen any connection with, um, environmentalism and environmental activism and a rise of sort of, should we say this sort of, uh, pagan ideals and the sort of neo-Nazi, pagan ideals? [01:00:39] Ross: Yeah. Um, and more research needs to be done on that because it's, it, where it occurs, it's not clear. Uh, it's not, it's not clearly, I should say, it's not clearly defined. So there is. Whole body of study insecurity studies on the far right that looks at something called eco fascism. So Ted Kazinski was inspired by neo paganism. Um, and there's, there's elements of that in Andrew Braves manifesto. Um, classic neo Nazis also use some of this eco fascist, uh, imagery in a lot of their memes and stuff. So the senses in the, in the, in the real, you know, hardcore neo-Nazi and, uh, antisemitic elements of, um, the new rights, the alt-right, they see the establishment. The Zionists people, uh, cabal, that's controlling the world as destroying Yeah. The environment. So that needs to be o overturned and we need to go back to traditional gender roles and, you know, everybody has a little farm and the, you know, the whole country is, is regreen and liberated from Zionists and homosexuals and Muslims and all that. That's, that's basically the, the kind of conspiracy. Ideology. [01:02:25] Chris: Mm-hmm. And you see that in anti-capitalist circles too. I've sort of seen that kind of weird hark to this sort of past that I'm sure a lot of people actually wouldn't want, but [01:02:34] Ross: Yeah. Yeah. You know, hospitals are a good thing generally. Um, yeah. So, yeah. You know, if you wanna be able to get Kiwis in winter, then, then you need, uh, globalization, don't you? So, um, but as I, as I said it, because of the algorithm, these things are getting more and more bundled together and really in ways that I think mainstream society or the general public kind of surprised that because it seems to challenge classic neoism, but that, that's, that's not, you know, it, it isn't neoism anymore. It's populism. It's all, it's a, a, a significant minority of the population that votes compared to. Perhaps the majority of the population that is apathetic and democratic and progressive, that doesn't, doesn't vote. And that's why we've got the, the, the rise of the far right or whatever we're now gonna call it. The far right, the, the culturally heritage, cultural heritage, uh, [01:03:40] Chris: fanatics, whatever you wanna call it. Well, one, one big question I suppose. Have you seen examples of Pagan communities actively resisting or pushing against this sort of far right co-option? [01:03:50] Ross: Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, that, it, it's, that's been there since the nineties, really. Um, but certainly it, it, uh, there's a, an academic, um, who's actually one of contributors to the book, um, focuses on American heathens, uh, so dramatic neo pagans in America. And, uh, she, she used the phrase or the term hyper aware. So that's a sophisticated way of saying that. Neopagan are bloody terrified and extremely stressed out about the far right extremists in their ranks. And it's to the point now because of, as I say, because the, or also because of the algorithm of polarizing algorithm, these fears of motivated online dis discourse in neopagan. So that a significant more, some research should be done really to do, um, discourse analysis. You know, look at the data of how many, how much of the content online content is, is expressing these fears. So, um, rather than discussing and developing theology and ethics and positive things and talking about deities and spirituality, a lot of it is them constantly fundamentally saying, we're not Nazis. We're not Nazis, we're not to each other. That's how, how much of an issue it is. But as I said, the. The problem is that for, for at least 35 years, they've been trying and failing to purge the ranks. Some, some of the actions that they've done have been more, um, effective than others, but it, it's never gonna work enough until our entire society can disa, uh, kind of undermine the appeal of neo paganism to these cultural heritage, uh, extremists. Yeah. [01:05:54] Chris: Well, you've shown that, um, paganism could both be a tool of exclusion and of healing depending on who's using it. And how do you think it could have a constructive role in the post-war recovery and cultural restoration in Ukraine or elsewhere? [01:06:08] Ross: As is neo paganism means inclusive, neo paganism. Cannot undermine and resolve the issues of ethnonationalist, extremists, extremism, and, and neo et cetera in the West as is. If there's gonna be a, a healing, it won't be a healing. It will be a massive de-radicalization process that will take decades, that will require a whole policy investment and a infrastructural and organizational game changer in the neopagan communities, which I don't think they, they are motivated to do because they, they're allergic to that on ideological grounds in Ukraine. Definitely there's, and one of the chapters in the book mentions that quite heavily, two, two chapters in the book mention that quite heavily that there's, um, likely to be a, a healing. Emphasis on folk identity and folk culture and the relationship with nature and land, even ethnicity and cultural heritage. That can definitely be done in Ukraine. But as I said, the problem as far as I can see and is not being talked about in security studies is that we've got a, a lot of guys, um, that have this cosmic thinking and cosmic war mentality who are also gonna be traumatized and potentially pissed off by whatever resolution could be. Looks like it's coming for the war because it doesn't look like it's be Ukraine. So where does that leave them narratives, you know, just get back. Enjoy, you know, a folk music festival, et cetera, that isn't gonna stop them wanting to, to reclaim the holy land if you, if you see, see what I mean? So there, there is one Ukrainian, at least one Ukrainian scholar called Dennis Breloff, who spec specifies this in, in at least one of his reports, saying that these guys make for absolutely, you know, phenomenal defenders of our country because they are defending the holy land, but they're gonna be a real barrier to any kind of peace building initiative. [01:08:49] Chris: You've mentioned the algorithm a few times. Are any recommendations for sort of social media companies, et cetera, and how they can improve things? [01:08:57] Ross: Uh, probably not via a soundbite now, but I, I would, I would want to be more directly involved with. Policy, policy change, and I'm involved in a net. I have a network, um, where I coordinate these specialists in these religions and concerns and ideas. And we are trying to, to get this message out. I mean, the book is, is part of that. And that's something that I inform identified. That's why they, they were quite keen to, to develop this into, into a book. We need to get this pushed out into the discourse in policy much more. And certainly in the uk um, private sector is an essential part in, in change in legislation and also watch dogging radicalization, extremism, polarization, et cetera. Um, so the, there needs to be a, a policy change in the private sector and in legislation and in, in government civil, you know, civil service basically. But. That was our conclusion in the book, that in order to do that we need to be able to, um, interact and interface with within Neopagan communities, but the Neopagan communities don't have any, any resources for us to do that even if we wanted to. Mm. [01:10:23] Chris: What would you most like scholars, journalists, or even listeners to take away from this book? [01:10:27] Ross: Well, two things really. One is pagan extremism, so that we need to see my message to policy and practitioners and, um, academics is to see the far right political category as actually on the spectrum of religiosity. So my network is pushing this term pagan extremism. I think that would allow us, a, to identify a lot of these extremist ideas. And B, to analyze them. And then c, once we understand them how they work and can spot them, we can also work on prevention. The other message I would say, and perhaps more to more, you know, um, a non-academic and non policy audience would be to be, to see neo pagans as one element of not, not as on a fringe of society, but as part of society really, and that they, what the reason they get drawn into neo paganism, what attracts them is the same reason you might watch, you know, the Vikings TV series. There is this cultural heritage narrative that we all have that defines us and, and how we feel about our country and how we navigate the future. By that, I mean, when we're beset by challenges and questions in policy, politics, culture, media, Vance, JD Vance or whatever, it, it, it asks us to dig into these abstract ideas about identity and heritage and culture and land and all of that. So I would urge people to, to question and to perhaps formulate what they actually think about those things. And if they are interested it, pick up a university book about history. Don't, you know, don't Google, um, you know, Viking, paganism, and then take, you know, from some fluffy or potentially political website and get your information from there. You know, we, generally speaking, as I say, social media has an issue where it doesn't promote. Accurate information that promotes feelings and we need to get away from feelings. [01:12:58] Chris: Mm-hmm. Well, is there anything else I wanted to add before we wrap up today that's important to you that might have missed or, no, [01:13:03] Ross: really, and I, if anything, I just like say what an awesome, no, it sounds cheesy, but what an awesome podcast you've got. I think you guys are doing really, really good, good content. It's good quality and, uh, yeah, I, I look forward to, I look forward to seeing the, the episode after mine because I wonder what you're gonna do next. There's always some good, good stuff. [01:13:22] Chris: Thank you. Where can listeners find out more about you, your work in this excellent book? [01:13:27] Ross: The book they can Google, uh, it's on Bloomsbury, um, Amazon, all those kinds of things. As for me, I mean, I, I'm not, you know, marketing, I'm not selling any, I don't, I don't make any money outta the book. This was an, an academic, academic and educational endeavor for me. The people who would be. Policy. The, the status quo of, of ideas and interpreting, interpreting ideology as it as it stands. [01:14:09] Chris: Brilliant. Well, thank you very much for your time today, Ross. I really enjoyed this. Thank you. [01:14:12] Ross: Thank you. [01:14:46] Announcer: Thanks for listening. This is Secrets and Spies.