[00:00:00] Announcer: Due to the themes of this podcast, listener discretion is advised. Lock your doors. Close the blinds. Change your passwords. This is Secrets and Spies. Secrets and Spies is a podcast that dives into the world of espionage, terrorism, geopolitics, and intrigue. This podcast is produced and hosted by Chris Carr. [00:00:37] Chris Carr: On today's podcast, I'm joined by author and former intelligence officer, Gavin Stone. We take a look at body language and detecting deception. We go through the basics of what to look out for, and also we debunk some of the myths around body language and lie detection. So, I hope you find this episode interesting and enjoyable. Take care. [00:00:54] Announcer: The opinions expressed by guests on Secrets and Spies do not necessarily represent those of the producers and sponsors of this podcast. [00:01:19] Chris: Gavin, welcome to Secrets and Spies. Thank you for joining me today. [00:01:22] Gavin Stone: Thank you for having me here. [00:01:23] Chris: It's good to have you here. Now, uh, please, for the benefit of the audience, can you just tell us sort of a little bit about yourself and your sort of professional background? [00:01:29] Gavin: Yeah, so I've worked in the security and intelligence industry for around about 20 years. It all started many years ago when I, I, I did it different to everybody else, I wasn't tapped on the shoulder at college like most kind of people in the intelligence industry. Um, it was more of a case I started in the, in, in private investigations and then that led on to, uh, people tracing, missing persons, and then throughout the, throughout time ended up with government contracts that resulted in, um, working my way into the intelligence community. And then, uh, doing everything from covert surveillance to start with, right up then to, uh, human intelligence gathering, which was, uh, where all the fun happens. [00:02:06] Chris: Brilliant, brilliant. And is, is private investigating exciting as like a Humphrey Bogart movie? [00:02:10] Gavin: I wish it was. I mean, there are, there are times and moments that it, uh, definitely can be a bit exciting and, and get the blood flowing, but, uh, it, it takes a particular type of person, and if you are not willing to, or able to sit in a car for many, many, many hours just watching the front door or waiting for somebody to leave a particular place, that kind of thing, then, uh, uh, it, it's definitely not, you know, not for you. It's, uh, it's, it's 99% boredom. [00:02:35] Chris: Yeah. Oh, brilliant. Well, thank you for that. Can you tell us, so we're here today to talk about body language, and I was wondering if you could just talk to us a little bit about sort of what sparked your interest in body language and deception? [00:02:47] Gavin: Yeah, I mean, it was something that, um, there's very, actually very little training even in the intelligence world, um, you know, very little training when it comes to body language. It's just the majority of it's done through role play and, you know, they kind of ask whether you, you picked up on certain things and that kind of thing. But the, the formal training is actually very minimal. And I looked into it more, I was with a, an asset, we were in a hotel room, and there is a certain kind of procedure of things that you do when, when you get to the meeting. The very first thing that you do before anything else is settle the next meeting, and that way if you get interrupted or it leaves, you know, it ends early for whatever reason, you've already got the next meeting in place. So, um, so that's the, the first thing. And then the second thing is to ask them if anybody else has approached them for, uh, you know, any kind of information, any other intelligence agencies, anybody else. Um, and this isn't verbatim, by the way, this is just summarizing. And, um, what you get is that you, you get the kind of, um, the usual responses when you go through the, yes, no, yes, no. And then all of a sudden, sometimes you see a shift. You see some, probably they'll bring their feet in or they might fold their arms and they might look at 'em and go, um, No. And you, you see a change and that's when you start to, you know, look and say, some something's not quite right there, I need to go a little bit further and investigate that. Um, and that was when I started to look deeper into, you know, kind of the nuances and, and, and find out more about, you know, the, the official side of body language, if there is one. [00:04:15] Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think one of the things that fascinates me about espionage is that dynamic of trust in a world of no trust. [00:04:22] Gavin: Yeah. [00:04:22] Chris: It's, it's so fascinating, yeah. And, and obviously being able to detect, um, detect people lying and deceiving you is obviously a vital skill as an operative in the field. [00:04:31] Gavin: Mm-hmm. And I mean, there are, like I say, there are levels of training with this, but, uh, I, I mean, in my opinion, I think it needs to go a lot deeper into deception detection than, than what it does in the majority of agencies around the world. [00:04:42] Chris: Mm-hmm. You emphasize congruency as a kind of cornerstone. So what is this and why is it vital to analyzing body language? [00:04:51] Gavin: Um, so congruency is just something that, uh, to simplify is, is making sure that the body is doing what or is matching up with what the words are that are being said. Um, so, you know, if you said, um, for example, you know, Gavin, did you like the chocolate biscuits? And I go, noooo. Um, and I'm doing the opposite action to, you know, this is something that is completely incongruent. Um, and obviously that's over emphasized, but sometimes it can be little subtle things where hand gestures are not in time with the words, so it doesn't make sense. Or if ever you see, um, the likes of the famous speech where Bill Clinton's saying, "I did not have sexual relations with," and, and everything was out of whack. It's been analyzed so many times, it's been done to death, but, but his hand gestures were not in time with his words. And that, that's kind of the basics of congruency. [00:05:42] Chris: Let's talk about body language basics. What are the kind of two to three key areas listeners should focus on to start understanding nonverbal cues? [00:05:49] Gavin: I would go with, with, to start with look for change. I mean, I advise everybody to, to baseline and a lot of people who are into body language will know, uh, baseline. It, it is the, the foundation to body language, and that's quite simply establishing what is normal for that person. You know, if, if so, if they normally, you know, rub their lip like this, then it means nothing if they do it any other time. Um, if it's something they don't normally do and you ask them a question and then they suddenly start rubbing their lip, that's, that's a deviation from baseline. Um, and this can be any action, you know, it can be something where they overexaggerate where they, you know, whatever particular action it might be, but the, the key is, is to understand that, um, baseline in a person also moves and changes and can be dependent on the environment that they're in. So, hypothetically, the behavior that somebody, um, does at home will be different to what they do at work, will be different to what they do in a court of law, might be different to how their baseline is, uh, at their parents' house or, you know, at a bar with their friends. So, depending upon the environment will depend heavily on, on, you know, what their baseline is. So you need to baseline them, you know, context dependent and then from there you can look out for abnormalities. [00:07:03] Chris: Yeah. You make me think of, um, I don't dunno why I was thinking of a game of poker and, you know, the whole idea of there's a tell. So, is it a good idea if you're go to a poker game with somebody to kind of, um, engage with them with conversation before the games you can get a, a vibe check with them? [00:07:18] Gavin: I, I would try it. I, I, um, I've been asked to play poker games and, and, and I've been avoiding it for some time because I thought if I, if I let myself down as one of the world's leading body language experts and I lose dramatically at, uh, uh, at poker, then, uh, that, that's it, my reputation's right out the window. Um, but yeah, I mean there are things that, that people do. I have watched and studied poker games, um, uh, and I see that there are certain actions that people do that, um, they try and give red herrings and that kind of thing, but there's more to it with poker than just body language. It can be everything from how they pile up the chips to how they stack the cars to, you know, so many other actions as well outside of the actual bodily movements. [00:07:58] Chris: Yeah, and are there any, um, other areas people should focus on as well to understand nonverbal cues? [00:08:04] Gavin: Yeah, I mean, if you want to look at the basics, then it, it's more of a case of if somebody's open with their, with their posture, um, and that's generally a case of they are pretty relaxed. The more they tighten and close their posture, the more they are kind of either nervous or or uncomfortable. Um, and that's generally how it is for most people. But again, this is all context dependent on, on the case of, you know, if, if somebody generally folds their arms, because that's how they comfortably sit and that's what they're used to, then it doesn't necessarily mean they're defensive, it just means, uh, you know, that that's, that's how they are comfortable, you know? So, uh, yeah. [00:08:41] Chris: Yeah, it's an interesting point. Um, because I, I had a, a drama teacher, Keith Johnston was his name, and he, he, he was one of the kind of inventors of improv, um, or one of the key practitioners of improv. And, and one of the notes he gave us in class was about, if you're playing a couple, you don't wanna sit in such a way where your legs are crossed at a and pointing away from the person. Um, theoretically if you cross your legs next to somebody you love, your leg will point towards them or something. So I've always beared this in mind, but then I've, I've been in situations in real life where, um, like I was, I was at a -- where was I? -- I was at a Q and A not long ago for a big film, and the two lead actors sat on stage and they, they, their legs were pointing away from each other. And I wondered, is, was there something more going on? Did they like secretly hate each other or something? Or, or was I just reading too much into it? [00:09:31] Gavin: It's hard to say with actors, to be fair, but what I would look for is the proximity of the feet. So that is more important than, than where their legs are facing. It doesn't matter so much which direction their legs are facing and which, which legs crossed over the other. If their feet are closer together, um, and more so for lovers -- um, you know, you, you hear about lovers playing footsie under the table, that kind of thing. You can generally tell, you know, a relationship and how close a couple are, if their feet are very, very close together, almost touching. Um, if they are further apart or pointing away, the feet, pointing away more so than the legs, um, that's more of an indication that things aren't so great. [00:10:07] Chris: And like, as you say, with the kind of the closed arms like that. [00:10:10] Gavin: Yeah, yeah. You look for, like, the direction the body, you know, the actual torso is facing towards, um, which isn't as important as you know, like I said, looking at the feet. So, if ever you're having a conversation with somebody and you know their, their body is pointing towards you, but their feet are, are slightly pointed away, maybe towards the door or the exit, then that, that, that is more of an indication that they're waiting to go. [00:10:34] Chris: Can you talk to us a bit about microexpressions? Because I know like there's that TV show, um, but it's like The Mentalist and there's another show, uh, Lie to Me. [00:10:43] Gavin: Mm, yeah. [00:10:44] Chris: And, and they do talk a lot about sort of microexpressions, like there's some sort of twitch of the eye or something like that that will be reveal somebody's inner darkest secrets. So I was wondering if you could briefly explain to us a little bit about what microexpressions actually are, um, and how they can, and sometimes not, reveal hidden emotions. [00:11:01] Gavin: Sure, I mean, microexpressions are more of an ingredient, more so than a whole picture. [00:11:06] Chris: Yeah. [00:11:06] Gavin: Um, but it, it's, it's, it's just a flash of a, of, of a look on somebody's face for a second where, um, if you, if you see an image, for example, of something that you find really disgusting, you tend to kind of, you know, just, just for a second. And it is very much a case of, uh, you know, that, that almost like you've gone into a room and there's a really bad smell and you go, Ooh. Um, and it, it's usually less than a second, sometimes as little as a, you know, a, a tenth of a second, uh, just a flash on the face. But there are other ways that you can get really good at practicing this and, and ways of seeing it prolonged. Um, and the best way to do it, we used to do it in, in training is, sit with a partner and ask the partner to think of someone they really, really love. Just picture someone that they, you know, that just fills their heart full of fondness and gladness and watch their face closely, and then tell them to, Right, get rid of that image completely, you know, clear the screen, and now picture someone they really can't stand, someone that really makes their blood boil and again, watch their face very, very closely. On the third time, you, you say, Right, clear the screen, and now what I want you to do is pick either one, but don't tell me. And watch their face and I'll guarantee, nine times out of ten, you'll be able to know which one they're thinking about. [00:12:21] Chris: Yeah. [00:12:21] Gavin: And you just ask them to hold the image of that person, um, and which in itself shows up. People are actually innately better than they think they are at picking up microexpressions. It doesn't need to be an expert, it can be somebody who just needs to be taught the methods to, to, to use and spot them. [00:12:36] Chris: Mm-hmm. And is it possible to detect somebody who's aware of this stuff and kind of, I mean, is it possible as an individual to kind of use this training to then counter your own expressions so you could deceive somebody better that way? [00:12:50] Gavin: To a degree, yeah. Um, I mean, were, you were, when, when I did the training that I did, I was kind of told to sit down and do an interview that was recorded, camera on a tripod, and watch it all back. And they said, the reason you watch it all back is you know when you are lying. [00:13:07] Chris: Yeah. [00:13:07] Gavin: You know when you're being truthful, you know when you're avoiding the truth, and therefore you'll be able to spot your own tells. Because, look for the points that you knew you were being untruthful, look at what you did, how you acted, where your eyes went, what your body did, et cetera, and those are your tells -- now get rid of them. [00:13:23] Chris: Yeah. [00:13:24] Gavin: Um, so, but that being said, for the majority of people, it's not that easy because the human body reacts to whatever is going on in the environment. So, for example, that'd be like saying to somebody, Can you train yourself to not jump, you know, when something startles you? Um, you know, and, and for the majority of people, the human, you know, the body reaction when something startles them, it's like, you know, and then they pull that funny, stupid, horrible, ugly face that everybody gets, even me. Um, and uh, you know, the arms go up and they do that, that kind of crazy look for a second as they freeze. That, that's just a, a natural reaction, you can't control it. And like so many other things in, in the body, you can't necessarily control your reactions under these circumstances, but what you can do is you, if you know you do this only when you're being untruthful, then you can pepper it into other areas where you are being truthful. And then if there are things you do when you are truthful and you know that you are being untruthful and you can, again, use the opposite signals, you know, to, to, to mix things up enough to, to not give somebody a, a clear read. Hopefully that makes sense. [00:14:28] Chris: No, no, no, that does. Thank you, thank you. Um, so you say, you say the truth lies within the statement. [00:14:35] Gavin: Mm-hmm. [00:14:35] Chris: Um, so what's a practical tip for analyzing someone's words to detect potential deception? [00:14:40] Gavin: I love this. I, I learned statement analysis from the creator, and I've studied it. And it's so, so fascinating, and the amount of times I've seen it in all manner of situations since is unbelievable. And what, what you've got is people, they, they know lying is wrong, so they tend to not want to do it even when they know they have to. So what they'll try and do is they'll try and give themselves a little bit of an out. Um, so for example, you might say to somebody, have you taken my wallet? And they've stolen your wallet and they know they've stolen your wallet and they don't want to lie. So instead of saying no, they'll turn around and say, I don't even know where you keep your wallet. Now they, they haven't answered the question, but they've given you an answer that generally tends to pacify most people because they just, they fill in the blanks themselves. They go, okay, he doesn't know where I keep my wallet, so therefore, you know -- they, they draw their own conclusion -- therefore, he couldn't have stolen this. That doesn't mean to say he hasn't found it, doesn't mean to say he hasn't gone looking for it. So, and, and this happens so much, you know, where people kind of evade the question more so than answer the question, but they give an answer that's good enough for most people to, uh, you know, kind of accept what they've been told. So, the number one takeaway here, for everybody listening, if, if you are asking somebody a question and you know if they've stolen something, taken something, listen for the word no. [00:16:01] Chris: Mm. [00:16:01] Gavin: If you don't get the word no, and it doesn't matter what follows it, if they turn around and say, No, I don't even know where you keep your wallet, but if they don't say that word no, if they say, I don't even know where you keep your wallet, or I haven't seen your wallet, or anything along those lines, or, Why would I take your wallet? That is something then that you turn around and say, Well, I didn't get a no. So, you know, just dig a little deeper. And, and this is, like I said, this is a, a recurring theme, it happens in many different ways where people will give some kind of answer because they know it'll pacify the person asking, but they haven't necessarily told a lie. [00:16:33] Chris: Yeah. It's interesting, that one, it's, um, I remember there's a really good book, there's another book called Spy the Lie from the, uh-- [00:16:41] Gavin: Oh, yeah. [00:16:41] Chris: By FBI officer, and he used the example, very simple, it's about, um, somebody in the office has stolen some money from a, a, a charity tin, and they ask lots of people different questions. And, and there's one person who, the person who turns out to be the thief says, Oh, but I'm a Christian, I would never steal anything. And I was instantly like this warning sign, and it's, yeah. [00:17:01] Gavin: Yeah, that's what they call a resume statement. Um, and I, I know somebody who used to do it really, really well. You know, you would say to them, you know, did, did you take X? Um, and then, you know, they'd hug you, they'd put their arm around your shoulder and say, Listen to me. I do this for the church. I do that for charity. I do this for the elderly and that for the homeless. You know, if I'm really, you know, uh, if I do all this stuff and I'm that kind of a person, do you think I would really do X? And, and again, it kind of doesn't answer the question. What it does is, it makes you question your question. It makes you go, yeah, okay, that's true. He is somebody who does a lot for charity. He is somebody who helps out the homeless. Is he? And, and of course you start questioning yourself. It's almost very, uh, similar to the kind of, you know, narcissistic traits that people display in, you know, when, when they're trying to gaslight people, you know, because technically they are making you question your own almost sanity or police by going, Hmm, yeah, maybe I'm completely wrong about that, and, you know, uh, and therefore you don't get an answer to the question, but you just go away feeling, Yeah, no, he obviously didn't do it. [00:18:02] Chris: Mm. So, whilst you were talking about this, I was just remembering something that happened to me back in 2000 and, was it 2003? Yeah. So, I was a, a student at university doing a part-time job in this photography store. I won't name it, but, uh, I was working at this photography store and suddenly, this quite harmonious environment where everybody sort of got on, suddenly changed because then orders had happened and they realized that the, the story in question, the one I worked in, had £20,000-worth of photographic equipment missing. [00:18:29] Gavin: Oh, wow. [00:18:30] Chris: And at first all of us thought, Oh well it's probably, maybe shoplifting, like, but  £20,000 is a lot of batteries. You know what I mean? Because not many cameras got stolen, so that meant somebody in our little team was the thief. So, you know, Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy-esque moment where somebody's not who they say they are. And so everybody started to suspect each other, et cetera, et cetera. Um, and the guy who turned out to be guilty, what was really interesting when walking back, it -- because I didn't suspect him at the time. And in fact even once, um, we were, if we were to go in out of hours and have a bag with us, he would have to leave the bag with a member of staff. And so I trusted him so much, I left him with my bag, so he could have fitted me up if, you know, if he wanted to. Um, and this guy was a real jobsworth. [00:19:19] Gavin: Mm. [00:19:19] Chris: He really, he had this vibe about him that he was gonna work in this store and this company pretty much for the rest of his life. He had this sort of very dependable feeling about him and he even, um, became a third key holder in the shop as well. That's how much he was trusted, even though he didn't have, should we say, the, the rank to justify having a, being the third key holder. And I remember there was this time when I reflect back on, on him being sort of outed, where his mask did slip slightly. [00:19:50] Gavin: Mm-hmm. [00:19:50] Chris: So I, so I was called in, um, with another colleague of mine to go for potential area management sort of training. The, the, the company wanted to know, do you want, would you be interested in being a manager? Because for some reason they thought I was management material. I, I didn't want to be because I had aspirations to go off and be a filmmaker, podcaster, et cetera. Um, and, and so I politely declined. My other colleague, John, who also had a bit of a, a air of he'll be here for the rest of his life, he went for it. But the guy in question who you, who I thought was Mr. Photography Store. Try not to name it. Um, he said, no. And afterwards, it's like, it just felt a bit out of character. So afterwards, I, I asked him in the cafeteria -- uh, which, shall we say the break room, I say cafeteria, it was a break room, it wasn't very glamorous -- I just sort of asked him just very casually, Oh, uh, I, I'm surprised you, you didn't want to go for the management trainee thing. And it, and then, I can't remember his exact phrasing, but he was really like, Oh, I don't wanna be here for the rest of my life, kind of thing. It was really weird and it was just totally out of character. But stupidly, I kind of just sort of dismissed this, and then six months later when I find out he's the store thief, that makes perfect sense. His mask slipped. It was really weird. So yeah, sometimes, um, the person deceiving you can be, the thing I learned from this, the person who's deceiving, you can be the last person you suspect. And so, well, if I was ever in a mole hunt, I think I would look for the, who's the last person we would suspect, and start with them. [00:21:13] Gavin: Yeah, and, and that's usually the case because they will do an awesome job of trying to build trust and, and kind of, you know, demonstrate -- over-demonstrate, if you want -- that, that, uh, you know, they are a trustworthy person. That is obviously how he became an extra key holder, you know, by over emphasizing, look how much you can trust me. [00:21:30] Chris: Yeah, it was crazy. Um, and, and it, you know, and, and I, and I still to this day feel bit sorry for him and still kind of liked him, even though, I mean, ultimately what he was doing wasn't really directly affecting me, but, but he was deceiving us and it was, uh, but yeah, I had such mixed feelings. So I could imagine, like in the Kim Philby story, where all these people liked him, must have felt quite conflicted after the fact. [00:21:53] Gavin: Oh yeah, I can believe it. Yeah, yeah. I've, I've, I've seen similar, similar instances. Now I can't unfortunately name them. [00:21:59] Chris: Mm-hmm. [00:21:59] Gavin: But, uh, but yeah, there are particular people that you, you know, you kind of take a liking to and you think to yourself almost, Now, how can you be somebody who wants that or does this, and yet you're such a wonderful person? You know? It, it's weird. [00:22:12] Chris: Yeah, yeah, it is. It is strange. Like, you know, it's a bit like that expression about, uh, there's nothing as strange as folk. [00:22:18] Gavin: Yeah. [00:22:19] Chris: It's so true, people are the weirdest, uh, subject sometimes. [00:22:23] Gavin: Yeah, and I mean, that, that when you, when you were talking just about like, about being the last person you suspect, I mean, it did get me to thinking, um, I learned, um, when it comes to, uh, truth or, or deception detection, um, there is another big thing that, that is, is often overlooked. Um, and that is, um, that, that truth-tellers kind of convey, whereas lawyers convince and the truth-tellers convey because they've got the truth on their side. So they don't need to spend forever trying to, you know, kind of talk you through all of the, the reasons why they're not a thief, or not a fraudster, or not a criminal, or whatever the case may be, whereas somebody who, uh, you know, who, who doesn't have the truth on their side, they have to convince you that they're innocent. You know, and that's when they will pull out all the stops and they'll use all the extra things to, um, you know, to say, you know, I do this and I'm like that and this is the kind of person I am and everybody trusts me and blah, blah, blah. Um, and that's kind of, what you've said there with the key holder is almost like, um, I'm sure you've heard of pre-suasion? [00:23:26] Chris: Hmm. [00:23:26] Gavin: It's almost like a kind of pre-suasion of "look how much you can trust me." You know, ready to, to kind of gear himself up to get, keep himself in the clear. He'd obviously decided he was gonna work there long enough to take what he could and leave at some point very soon. Uh, and cash in on his position. [00:23:41] Chris: Yeah. Yeah, do you know, I'll tell you now how he did it, uh, because uh, just in case everybody's like desperate to know how he did it. So, when he, he would stay on late to close up, uh, and he was working in the photo lab, so it gave him the kind of excuse, Oh, I'll just, I need to finish up this run and close down the machine, so people were like, okay. So he, he's, he's doing it. And what he would do is, um, because obviously there's CCTV cameras in the place as well, but there are blind spots. And over the day what he'd been doing is putting his stuff into a bin bag and then would take all the rubbish out in the evening. And then later on -- apparently his mum was helping him -- his mum would come in and collect the various bags with the stuff in it. [00:24:19] Gavin: Wow. [00:24:19] Chris: And obviously the town's CCTV did catch it. So, in the end, CCTV caught him. [00:24:26] Gavin: That actually reminds me of, uh, uh, an incident in, uh, AugustaWestland in Somerset. Uh, one of the greatest security breaches of all time. They had a government contract to make a kind of, um, stealth helicopter. And I won't go into all the details, but I mean, if, if ever you've been there, AugustaWestland is absolutely huge. Um, it's probably the size of a town. And they were using all these particular materials to make this, this, uh, project, government project. And there was loads of excess, loads of leftover as there always is, they always over-order, anyway. [00:24:57] Chris: Yeah. [00:24:58] Gavin: Um, and the lads in the workshop on the night shift, they'd actually used a lot of the excess leftover materials to make a boat. And, and it was a, you know, great thing, you know what, what they'd done. I mean, it was only stuff that was gonna be thrown away and destroyed anyway. Um, but you know, that's beside the point. But they've made this boat and when they finally completed it, they said, well, how are we gonna get it out of here? They hadn't figured that bit out. And what they said is, is they said, right, you know, the night shift generally work half at a time. So we'll get, we'll get half the night shift outside to get a Land Rover and a trailer and back it up to the fence, and the other half of the night shift on the inside, we'll get it to the fence, we'll, we'll lift it over, you know, we'll push it over the fence and the other half can then lift it onto the trailer. And, so they did that, they, you know, middle of the way, almost to the end of the night shift, they backed this Land Rover up with this boat trailer to the fence at the very rear end of Augusta Westland. And it's going back a few years, I don't even think it's called AugustaWestland anymore. Um, and they lifted this boat, they've got teams of men and they, they're, they're shuffling and they've got it about halfway across and the security guard come over and he, he shines the torch that the guy who seems to be like directing everybody, and he made the biggest mistake ever. He turned around and said, Hey, you can't bring that in here. So they said, okay, no problem. Uh, and, and they pushed it out over the fence, put it on the trailer, and drove away with it. Um, and that, that is a, a, a fantastic, um, kind of example of, of, you know, asking the right questions, you know, for anybody working in the securities trade, you know, ask what's going on and don't make assumptions. [00:26:33] Chris: How funny. So he thought they were putting it in rather than taking it out. That's hilarious. [00:26:37] Gavin: Yeah. [00:26:38] Chris: Yeah, obviously really trusted his people. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. What are the two primary reasons people lie and how do these motives manifest in behavior? [00:27:05] Gavin: Right, so there's only two reasons that people lie and, uh, you know, there are lots of kind of subcategories, but everything, no matter which way you look at it, will always come back to those two primary reasons, and that's quite simply protection and gain. They're either protecting themselves or others from, you know, whether it's anything from a, a prison sentence to social, um, you know, mishaps, et cetera, that kind of thing, or it could be gain, and that could be whether it's monetary gain, whether it's, um, social status gain, or whatever the case may be. Either, either way, it will always be, uh, you know, something that comes back to those, those two areas. Um, and, and of course, we have to remember that people lie, um, not necessarily to be malicious, it could just be the fact that they're, they're out having, uh, you know, a few beers with the lads and that kind of thing and the fish that they caught that was this big this morning is, is, is a killer whale by the time they, uh, you know, they, they're on their fifth beer. Um, you know, so it, it, it's not necessarily like I say, anything malicious. Um, you know, it's just kinda, the fish is this big, then it's this big, then it's this big, and, you know, a few years later it, it's, it's Moby Dick, um, you know. Uh, and of course it's, it's, it's all about the, this social status, but it also comes into something we're gonna touch on a little bit later as well, which is memory pollution and, and, and that kind of thing. And, and this is where people aren't necessarily lying. They, when the, the memory works in a very funny way, and it's not how most people think it is. It, it, when you, when you go back to a memory, um, you're not actually accessing the original memory, you are remembering it how it was the last time you went back to it. So every time you go back to a memory, whether, whether it's your high school, whether it's, um, you know, the house you grew up in, you are not remembering the, the memories you had from there. You're remembering the memories from the last time you thought about them and they edit themselves over time. Um, you know, and it could be silly things like the color of a door or, you know, the size of a room. And this is why when you go back to your preschool years later, I'm sure you've probably done it, come back to an old house or an old school and you're going, Wow, this looks different. Um, because, you know, because you, you've edited it so many times in your head, you know, what the layout was and that kind of thing. So, so for people with, um, you know, this kind of, you know, the fish went from this big to this big, in their mind they, they may genuinely believe that the fish was this big, you know, that it's been every single time. You know, and then when you show them a photo later, they go, no, no, no, that's not, that can't be the same one. Uh, you know, and the cognitive dissonance kicks in because it's not how they remember it. [00:29:44] Chris: What are people's most common mistakes when reading body language and how could they avoid them? [00:29:49] Gavin: The, the first one is something that has been labeled like the Pinocchio Effect. And, and a lot of this is down to these TV experts where they will say things like, Oh, he scratched his nose, he's lying, or he, he did this, he's lying. And there is no single action that indicates deception. It's as simple as that. You cannot say he did this action, so therefore it equals X. It, different actions for different people, and, and this can even change culturally, um, can mean different things. So when you are studying someone's body language, you have to understand, like I say, about congruency and baseline, what's normal for them. Um, you know, so like I say, if, if you were to, um, have somebody that's put their hands on the back of their neck regularly, um, because it's had, you know, maybe they've had a, a stressful week, it's nothing out the ordinary if they answer a question and do it at that particular time. Um, so, so you're, you're looking, when you're looking for deception, you're looking for a cluster of things. You are looking at breath, location, you are looking at eye movement, you are looking at blink rate. You're looking at what the body is actually doing, the physical movements, the, the words, the tone, the speech rate, all of these things together, if there are changes in several of them, and I tend to use a rule of three plus. So if there's three or more incongruencies, that's when it, it, it kind of, you know, sends a little signal up to me that goes, Hmm, pay a bit more closer attention there. So, you know, and I had this with, um, three, uh, military officers, not so long back. They, they, they was aware of what I did, and they, they kind of, they were interviewing me, um, and, and they said, we feel like we've got to sit on a hands when we're talking to you. They're too, too scared to make a move. Um, but yeah, I said, no, you know, there is no single action. You, you cannot turn around and say, Oh, you know, he touched his chest, so therefore it means X. It doesn't work. Like there is no dictionary of X movement equals Y action or, or thought, you know, it's not, not the way it is. [00:31:48] Chris: Yeah, yeah. One thing I, I, I had another experience once where I was, um, up for an interview and halfway through I felt like, Yeah, this interview's, I've blown it, and what gave me the signal was the, a big gesture happened that was totally different on the person who's interviewing me. They suddenly, not did a yawn, they kinda just opened up their body and did a big stretch and I thought, Oh, I fucked this up. And I was right, I had fucked it up. I dunno, I dunno why I fucked it up, but that was, that was the moment. [00:32:19] Gavin: That, that's something that obviously, you know, even if it was subconscious, you were, you know, you know, you, you were semi-conscious as in, you were aware of, of that action happened, but something in your subconscious had obviously picked it up and gone, Yeah, no, this is, this is a negative, uh, negative turnout. So, uh, yeah, it's, uh, it's surprising how, how, how good we are at it without even knowing we are sometimes. [00:32:38] Chris: Yeah, yeah. And it was interesting as well, because then afterwards, they kept sort of trying to play out that it was still going well, this interview, and like, Oh yeah, we'll be in touch and blah, blah. So I was like, Well, when will you be in touch? Just, I was playing them a little bit towards the end, but yeah. Oh, bless. [00:32:53] Gavin: Fun to do. [00:32:55] Chris: Yeah, so we, we touched on this a little bit. So, you talk about beliefs and biases and memory distortion and polluted memories. So, how do these factors affect our ability to assess someone's truthfulness accurately? [00:33:05] Gavin: This is a really, really loaded question, and, and I like this question because the, the, there's kind of multiple parts to this. Um, I dunno if you've heard of the psychologist Elizabeth Loftus, but she's absolutely amazing with some of the experiments she'd done. Um, and, and, and it shows that, just by the wording that you use, can change somebody's perception. [00:33:27] Chris: Mm-hmm. [00:33:27] Gavin: Um, so she did, she showed two groups a car crash, and yeah, she asked the first group, What speed do you think the cars were going when they bumped into each other? And when she used the word bumped, they said, oh, 20 to 30 mile an hour. The second group who was showed exactly the same video, um, she asked them what speed were they going when they crashed into each other, and replaced the word bump with crash. And with all the participants, the speed had gone up to 40, 50 mile an hour. Um, so that was really, really interesting. [00:33:59] Chris: Mm-hmm. [00:33:59] Gavin: Um, and what happened was, she, she started playing with all different experiments to do with memory. And the one was when she then asked them what color was the stop sign, every one of them answered red. But the thing was, there was no stop sign, and that was what was interesting. And, and when she asked them about the stop sign and about certain events, um, they, they believed that there was one, and when they were shown the video back, they were saying, No, this is a different video, you know, this is, this can't be right. Um, which got them to the point, got her to the point where she thought, Hmm, how far can we go with memory implantation? And they did, uh, they did a couple of experiments. One was the "lost in the mall" experiment where they con, uh, convinced, uh, participants they were lost in the mall as a child, which was really, really great. And the, the story became something that the participant believed was true to the point where they started recalling memories of smells of the old lady that found them, and all, all different things, sometimes with an old man. But they started vividly describing the person that got them back to their mother and how their mother reacted. And so that was one. Um, and then the other one was, uh, it was done through photographs. And they showed them loads and loads of photographs that were genuine photographs of them as a child growing up, but they had one that was deliberately made and it was photoshopped to show them, um, on a hot air balloon flight. And they were, they were convinced that they'd been on this hot air balloon flight. Even though they said, I can't quite remember it, by the end of the session, they then believed they'd been on a hot air bloom flight. [00:35:30] Chris: Wow. [00:35:30] Gavin: And, and they, they, yeah, so, and, and it's, so, it's really, really interesting how easy, and this was like the stars of it, how easy it's to implant a memory into somebody's, uh, mind or conscious. Um, so the, with that in mind, when that person believes they are telling the truth, that's completely different to when somebody's fully aware of the fact that they know they're lying. You know, so different reactions altogether. [00:35:54] Chris: So the key to a successful lie is they gotta really believe in it? [00:35:57] Gavin: Yeah, yeah. [00:35:59] Chris: Wow, yeah, yeah, yeah. And also I suppose the danger, the thing they've implanted memories as well is obviously at a time of high stress. So if somebody had like, witnessed an accident or something horrific, um, I'm assuming it's probably easier to implant a memory in someone at that point because they're in stress. [00:36:14] Gavin: Yeah, there's lots of different ways you, you can kind of add to it and strengthen it as well. And this is if either authorities or um, you know, trusted family members and friends and peers and that kind of thing reinforce it. If they all were to turn around and say, Yes, I, you know, I remember, uh, you know, you telling me about that and I remember you showing me the photos that years ago. Or, you know, the, the people who were, say, their, like hypothetically, the, the parents say, Yeah, don't you remember coming along with us? We had a great time. And so the more it's reinforced by other people, the more the person will then start questioning and go, Maybe I did go on a hot air balloon flight. I must have. So therefore they, you know, the more accepting they will be of, you know, the information and, and, and believe it. [00:36:55] Chris: Mm-hmm. And, and I guess, um, like with the crash example, um, the police are trained, well, one would hope the police are trained, to be careful in how they ask questions about a crash. [00:37:04] Gavin: Yeah, to, to a degree. I would like to see a lot more training within the police for this kind of thing, but, um, uh, and, and this is why it's always important to, to approach things as neutral and, and as kind of, you know, objectively as possible. [00:37:18] Chris: How is what is said versus the way it is said play a role in detecting deception and what should we listen for in someone's tone of voice? [00:37:25] Gavin: So, we're looking at several things here. Um, so not just the tone of voice, but the, the cadence, the speech, the, um, and then the most important thing, which, which I tend to listen out for a lot, is fading facts or, or the, you know, the, the volume going right down at the end of the sentence. Um, and this is generally because again, people don't like to lie. So if you've got a, a, a, you know, a politician who's accused of sleeping with his secretary and her dog, um, you know, he, he might turn around and say something, I did not sleep with that secretary or her dog. And, and so, uh, you know, and that kind of, that that's what happens, you know, the volume goes down, the speed changes, the pitch changes. And then on, on the odd occasion, you will also, um, and you've probably seen it on the likes of may, maybe, say, Friends or, or TV shows where there's a bit of comedy and it's overemphasized. Um, you know, and that one of the characters will say, did you eat my cake? And they'll go, No! No. So, and again, we, we have over exaggerated a little bit, but that kind of thing does happen, you know, that the, the pitch tends to go up. Um, so, you know, just listen for that kind of increase. Um, you know, and, and obviously, you know, the, the way things are said does also run slightly into statement analysis as well for, for listening to the words that are actually said as well. [00:38:40] Chris: Yeah, yeah, and in England we get it a lot with like phrases like, excuse me. It can mean many things. [00:38:45] Gavin: So yeah, the, the, there is also the, the side of, of listening to what's, what the rebuttal is. So if you were to say to somebody, you know, um, Have you stolen my wallet? And they go, you know, Why would I steal your wallet? Listen for aggression in the voice. You know, are you being attacked in return from your question? You know, uh, because this is generally to throw you off guard and stop your questioning. So, um, so yeah, that's the, the way things are being said, very much like the, excuse me, and the, the other part of the conversation we had, um, you know, you, you've gotta listen to, to the words that are being said and, and, and what their response is. Are they, are they somebody that, you know, and this does happen, people tend to go violent or flare up or, or get angry because it's, it's their method of defense. It's what they know, it's what's worked for them in the past. [00:39:31] Chris: Yeah, makes a lot of sense. Thank you. You discuss in your book about, uh, police methods of extracting a confession. So what are are some of these methods and how can we protect ourselves from being manipulated? [00:39:43] Gavin: The, the police have got a, a, a very great way of just calming somebody down and, and they, they, they tend to use the sentence, We just want the truth. They'll tend to kind of, um, play everything down like they're as objective as possible. What they actually want is a confession, but, you know, uh, but, but by saying, We just want the truth, uh -- or they'll use the line, We just want to hear your side of the story. Now, if you are being truthful or something's happened to you and you're reporting it, you've got absolutely nothing to worry about at all. But what they will tend to do, and I'm sure you've seen it in, you know, detective movies and that kind of thing where they'll say, Oh, we've been over this already, or, We've, we, this is three times now we've talked about this. And the reason they're doing it, they're doing it to see if your story changes. [00:40:26] Chris: Mm-hmm. [00:40:27] Gavin: They're doing it to see if the timeline changes. Um, and then you've probably heard the, the kind of, um, the saying, He knows his story back, forwards and backwards. That's something that, um, they will ask you the timeline of events. Where you were, when things started, where there were when it ended, and blah, blah, blah. And then they will ask you in reverse to see if it matches up, because most people, they know something in their head forwards very, you know, intimately, uh, and can tell you. When you try and ask them backwards, it's a lot more difficult. [00:40:57] Chris: Mm-hmm. [00:40:58] Gavin: So, you know, you, you can look at something as familiar to everybody as the alphabet and you can say, Right, can you say the alphabet? You know, and you know it, you've been saying it all your life. And people go, Yeah, A, B, C, D, F, D. You say, Can you say the alphabet backwards? And all of a sudden, they'll go, uhhh, and you'll see them thinking about it. It's a lot harder to recall something going backwards no matter how well you know it, you know? So, um, you, you really have to put the thought in. That's when it, it's easier then to catch people out if they are being untruthful. [00:41:28] Chris: Yeah, yeah, so they deviate in a significant way. Um, I'm trying to think of an example, but you know what I mean? If, yeah, they deviate in a significant way that doesn't, um, fall into just a memory issue. [00:41:38] Gavin: Well, it heightens the cognitive load because when you are being untruthful, it takes a lot more energy, you know, to kind of, to, to keep that story because it didn't happen. [00:41:48] Chris: Mm-hmm. [00:41:48] Gavin: You know, because you're, you're telling a lie or you're, you're, you know, you're having to think about all the possibilities. And the police will turn around and, and they'll say things like, So, yeah, when you left the building, where did you go? And they say, Oh, I, I went home. Did you drive? Did you get a taxi? Did you get a bus? And all of a sudden, if this is something that didn't happen and this is something they're making up, they've got to start thinking, hang on, did I drive? Are there any traffic cameras? Could I have been seen? Have they tracked my car? What if I say I've got a taxi? Will they call the taxi company? Is there gonna be a record? Is there CCTV inside the taxi? What about a bus? And you, so you've got all these millions of thoughts of saying, you know, should I just say I walked and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And this person then has to pick very quickly what they think is the best, you know, that is going to cover them. Um, so of course if they turn and say, Right, I'll, I'll just tell them I walked, then all of a sudden they go, Okay, so did you go past, you know, RadioShack? You know, and that, that person again has gotta, Oh, is there any cameras? What if? What if? And you've got this next load of questions. So the cognitive load is so high, you can actually get people to the point where they're almost passing out and, uh, uh, from exhaustion. And then what happens is they struggle to keep up with the lie. They, they struggle to kind of maintain the story, and that's when the holes start appearing. [00:43:04] Chris: Yeah, and it, it reminds me of my favorite TV detective, Colombo. [00:43:07] Gavin: Yeah. [00:43:07] Chris: So, like, the whole structure of an episode is just slowly him picking apart the lie that somebody's told. [00:43:13] Gavin: Yeah, uh, one of my favorites as well, and, and, uh, and a few within the actual, um, human behavior kind of community. Uh, you know, everybody kinda loves Colombo. He is, he is the hero. [00:43:23] Chris: Yeah, yeah. No, he's great. Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. So, what is the most important question to ask when a person's telling all, and why is it so powerful? [00:43:49] Gavin: So, this is something that, um, and again, I try and encourage law enforcement or people working in intelligence or anything like that, you know, if you use criminals and, or terrorists and that kind of thing, to, to ask, but you can also do it with, um, you know, your husband or whatever else. And that question is simply, What else? You know, so people will skip past information. So, if you've got a man who's been out for a couple of games of snooker, then he's gone to a strip club, then he's gone to a hotel with a stripper, and then he's come home, his wife might turn around and say, What did you do last night? Oh, I went for a few games of snooker and then I came home, you know? And uh, so when, when you get to the point where you say, Okay, so, you know, my friend said they saw you in the strip club, did you go there? You know? Yes. Okay, what else did you do? And then they have to start thinking, Okay, they, they're, they're onto me here. But if somebody does start then confessing and they say, Okay, I did go to the strip club and I did, you know, walk out with a stripper. Then it, it's kind of, Okay, what else? [00:44:50] Chris: Mm-hmm. [00:44:50] Gavin: Okay, we went to a hotel. What else? Okay, we went, we got a room. So, um, and this is, this is extremes, but this, this has happened with terrorists where, you know, they, they've been turned around and they've, they've asked, Right, what were you doing in the area? And they said, Reconnaissance. What else? Well, I planted some explosives. What else? I did this. What else? I did that. What else? I did. And then, and you keep asking, What else? until they go, That's it. [00:45:14] Chris: Hmm. [00:45:15] Gavin: You know, that, that, that's as much as I did. So, um, so keep asking that. What? When? Where? But it has to be at the point of confession, not-- [00:45:23] Chris: Not in the defensive point. [00:45:24] Gavin: Yeah, exactly. [00:45:25] Chris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:45:25] Gavin: When, when they finally say, Okay, you've got me, this is what I was doing. [00:45:28] Chris: Yeah. [00:45:28] Gavin: You know, you gotta say, Okay, what else were you doing? You know, if, if, if at the very first time you say, What else were you doing? and they go, That was it. Then, okay, fair enough, but if they, if there is more to hide, if they're in confession mode, as it were, that's when it'll come out. [00:45:41] Chris: Yeah, yeah. Totally, totally. Yeah, yeah, that makes lots of sense. So what are the biggest myths surrounding body language and deception that you want to debunk? [00:45:50] Gavin: I think the, the, the biggest one, and everybody's heard it time and time again, is if a person folds his arms, he's being defensive, and it's just so untrue. Um, it can be that somebody's being defensive, but it also could be that they're cold. It also could be that they want to, you know, just kind of put themselves in a position where they, they, you know, feel more protected. It could be that they're comfortable sitting with their arms folded. There are so many reasons that a person could or might do it. Now, yes, if it's not normal for that person and they fold their arms, and other signals and signs of deception are present, then it could mean something. [00:46:29] Chris: Mm-hmm. [00:46:29] Gavin: But the folding of the arms alone is not a signal that somebody's being defensive or untruthful. [00:46:35] Chris: Yeah, yeah. Are there any other things like that at all to keep an eye out for? [00:46:41] Gavin: Um, yeah, I mean, you know, this whole kind of, you know, when you're watching these TV experts, you know, if they say, Oh, there was a microexpression there, that means he's lying, or, you know, He, he twitched his foot to the left or he, he -- it's not the way it is. Like I said, it, it, it has to be clusters. It has to be more than one thing. It has to be three-plus things in order to, to have any kind of, um, you know, kind of congruence in, in, in what you're looking for. So hopefully, hopefully that makes a little bit of sense. [00:47:11] Chris: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. That's great. Um, so your book has sort of bonus material on beating a polygraph lie-detector machine. Why do you include this and what are the limitations of polygraphs? [00:47:23] Gavin: So, this, this is something that, um, they, they call it a lie-detector machine, and it, it's actually not, it's um, it, it's more of a stress detector. Um, and that's because people do get stressed when they lie. And, you know, now, um, and I will caveat here that this is dependent upon the severity of the lie and the potential ramifications of the lie. So hypothetically, if you turn around and say to somebody, Did you eat my apple pie? And they go, No, I didn't. Then they're not gonna show as many stress signals as a man who, who's been interviewed and potentially going on death row for a murder. So, you know, the, the, the stress signals are gonna be a lot more prominent. So, um, so the first thing to know is whether somebody actually cares. You know, do they care about the fact that they're lying to you about whether they, they ate your apple pie or not? Um, if they don't care, then the stress signals are not gonna be present. If, if it is hugely important, then the stress signals will. Now, the biggest problem that these so-called lie-detectors have is that some people get stressed even if they're being truthful. Because of the potential ramifications of, you know, I'm hooked up to a lie detector. What if it goes wrong? What if they think I'm lying, blah blah. There's so many questions that stress that, they do, anxiety levels rise and they stress themselves out, which spikes the machine. Um, but what the, what the real test is, and what the real truth is, is it's not the machine itself that's actually examining you as much as the instructor. The examiner, sorry. Um, it's the man who is operating the machine that is looking to see if you are being truthful. Um, and it starts way before you are hooked up to the machine and it finishes way after you've been taken off the machine because there will be, um, a time where he'll sit you down and he'll talk to you and say, this is what's going to happen, this is what the machine does, these are the questions I'm going to ask, and he'll go through a process. And that's actually when the process has actually started. He's looking, he's seeing how you react, how, how, you know, if you fidget. He's getting, he's getting a baseline on you before you're even hooked up to the machine. Um, there are other little things he can do as well to, to give an indication to see, you know, whether or not you know, you, you, he might tell you don't hold your breath before a question because it might, you know, distract the machine. And then if he spots you on, on asking the question, all of a sudden you're holding your breath and then you're talking and then you only let, let your breath out, he knows you're trying to disrupt the machine deliberately. So, there are things that he'll do or say or, you know, there, there are different things that can be done to, to kind of get an indication from, you know. And then afterwards, um, when you, you know, when he takes the, the straps off, he might turn around and say, Right, you can relax now. It's all over. It's all done. And you go, Oh, thank goodness for that. And, and then you'll listen to what you have to say. And, and people tend -- and I've done this from when I've used lie-detectors myself -- I've seen, uh, the, the people have gone, That one particular question, number eight, when I was answering that I had this thought, and, and, and, you know, and there's all panic. And what you do is you go back to number eight, and if you see, oh the machine's reading, you know, high stress signals, you go, Ha, he was very defensive about his answer there. So, so it's all happening pre- and post-exam as well. [00:50:33] Chris: Yeah, so like, um, I've read quite a few kind of Cold War books, you can imagine, and obviously a lot of famous traitors in the US have beat lie-detector machines and, or should we say lie-detecting process? How are they doing that? What is their, sort of, KGB training that their handlers give them-- [00:50:49] Gavin: Yeah. [00:50:49] Chris: Like, I'm gonna teach you to beat a lie-detector -- with a Russian accent. [00:50:53] Gavin: Well, there's a few different ways, and that is to create spikes when there, when there aren't any. Um, uh, and, and this is why they do what they call the control questions to start with. So, they'll ask you questions, you know, What is your name? That your answer truthfully, uh, so they can see what a truthful answer looks like. Then they'll say, Have you ever been to the moon? No. Most of us haven't. Um, so you, you're meant to answer yes. And then the machine shows a spike as what you, what a spike looks like for when you lie. Now, if they ask you, Is your name Gavin Stone? and you create a spike, that is going to be higher or as high as when you lie, then there's not gonna be a difference between the two or there's not gonna be much in it, which makes it very, very difficult then when comparing, uh, you know, the, the, the, the, the lies to the truth. Um, and this is the same as throughout the, uh, the kind of, uh, exam. You, you can create spikes when you're being truthful and then, you know, get rid of them when you're not. Um, there are multiple ways of doing this, uh, and this is, you know, can be to kind of put yourself in a position of think of a really traumatic event in your life and create the causes or just create the, the spike internally. Um, and then the other way of, of beating the machine is to almost put yourself into a trance, where you're automatically just answering the, the, the questions as you would naturally, um, especially if you've got nothing to worry about, if you haven't done anything wrong. Um, then, uh, you put yourself into a, a little bit of a, a trance where the examiner asks you the questions and you just, you know, sit there, kinda go yes, no, yes, no. Um, and what you're doing, the way to do it, and, uh, the way I've recommended it to people and used it myself, is just replay a movie in your head, a movie you've watched -- most people have got a movie they watch time and time again. They know the script, you know better than probably the, the actors and director. Um, and just replay it in your head. Um, and while you are replaying the movie in your head, just, whatever question you get asked, just answer it and, and continue replaying that movie. [00:52:53] Chris: Yeah. Uh, would you say lie-detectors are a pretty good method to detect deception? Because obviously there are famous traitors who beat them, but I'm assuming they probably also stopped a lot of other people, um, because the Americans still use them, don't they? [00:53:08] Gavin: Yeah. So, um, I mean, they're, they're not used in things in instances where, you know, in, in a court of law in America it can't be used and that kind of thing. Um, they, they are used by certain employers, although you're not legally obliged to take a lie-detector test for employment, unless of course it is the US government. Um, but yeah, they can be useful in the sense of the majority of people believe that they are going to be hooked up to a machine that can detect the lies. So that in itself means, the majority of the time, they will be truthful as, as much as they possibly can. Um, but effectively they are, they are just a prop. Um, it was, it was one of those things that, um, a friend of mine in Guantanamo Bay who was, um, they, they hooked somebody up to a machine. [00:53:53] Chris: I'm assuming he wasn't a suspect. [00:53:56] Gavin: No, no, he wasn't. Um, and they, uh, yeah, they, they, they, they hooked this particular person, this, this, uh, individual up to a machine and, uh, they told him it was a lie-detector and they asked him a question. He answered, and he went, the machine says you're lying. And he said, Oh, get that off me. Get that off me, I'll be truthful. Please, get that off me. And it was actually a Nintendo. It was a Game Boy. Um, so, you know, so as a, as a prop, if that's what you are using them for, you know, then, uh, you know, it, it's one of those things that as long as the person believes that you, you'll have the ability to be able to tell when they're lying or not, that's, that's when it's at its most useful. [00:54:35] Chris: Yeah. One other random question: Do truth serums actually work? [00:54:40] Gavin: Um, they, they can, um, but they're not reliable. So, um, the, the, the best way to put it is it, it's a bit like getting somebody drunk. Um, you, you can get somebody drunk, and some people you can get drunk and you've heard the saying, The truth comes out when you're drunk, because their, their inhibition levels are lowered excessively. Um, but also so does a load of BS when you're drunk, you know? And I'm probably one of the world's worst for it. So, um, so yeah, when, when somebody has, you know, a few extra beers inside them, they, they will say all, all sorts of, of, of crap. Um, and this is what the truth serum in effect does. Um, yes, the inhibition levels are lowered. So they are, they don't care about what they're saying and they, it's not as easy for them to hold back. Um, but it's not reliable because you don't know whether they are actually telling the truth or whether it's just a, a load of waffle that's coming out. [00:55:36] Chris: Yeah, interesting. Likewise, actually, um, Le Bureau, the French TV, uh, show, I don't know if you've seen it. [00:55:42] Gavin: I haven't, no. [00:55:43] Chris: It's a really good, um, spy show about the DGSE, the French intelligence services, and apparently they make their assets do a drunk test, and they also make their officers do a drunk test, too. Um, and I, and I don't know if this is a -- A, if this is actually what the French do, uh, where they get everybody just hammered and ask lots of difficult questions. Um, and if they do do that, do, do you know of Britain or America doing that to their people? [00:56:09] Gavin: Well, I mean, I, um, as far as I know, the Brits don't, although there are, there are similar things in training. Um, but that's more down to the kind of the, the, the mental capability of, are you still able to make, you know, rational or, or correct decisions in the state you're in, and that kind of thing. However, you've got me going now. So, I've got a friend who's actually in the DGSE, so I'm gonna contact them later and find out if they do it and, and, uh, you know, if it's, if it's true and have they done it? And, uh, yeah, so-- [00:56:37] Chris: And do you get to choose what alcohol it is? Yeah. [00:56:39] Gavin: Yeah, that's the big question, yeah. So, tequila's my poison, or it used to be. I, I stopped drinking about three years ago. [00:56:46] Chris: Oh, okay, cool. [00:56:46] Gavin: And, uh, yeah, it was, it was always, for me, it was one of two things. It was either silver, tequila or vodka. Uh, but yeah, I, I got quite heavy on it, so I decided to stop. [00:56:56] Chris: Fair enough, fair enough. Well, um, finally, what are the kind of most important takeaways you want listeners, and viewers to, to remember about body language and detecting deception? [00:57:05] Gavin: I think one of the most important things is you will get what you look for. So, if you look for deception, you will find it. [00:57:12] Chris: Mm-hmm. [00:57:12] Gavin: You know, if, if, if you, if you are going into this with any kind of bias or belief, then you're the wrong person for the job. You shouldn't be going -- you, you need to go into everything as objectively as possible, and if you can't, then get somebody that, that can. Um, because if you've already made your mind up before you've started and you're asking somebody questions, all that's going to happen is you are going to start suffering from confirmation bias and saying to yourself, I knew it, I knew it, I knew it, you know? So, uh, so don't, don't look for, for things if you have an emotional attachment to it. You know, uh, take a, take an external, uh, or, or like I said, get somebody who's completely unrelated to, to kind of ask the questions for you. [00:57:51] Chris: Excellent. Is there anything else you'd like to add that's important to you that we may have missed or, or anything? [00:57:56] Gavin: Um, well, if it's okay, I'd love to plug an event that I've got coming up. [00:57:59] Chris: Oh, please. Yeah, yeah. [00:58:00] Gavin: Um, so what I've done is I've, I've worked from a, uh, with a few friends in different intelligence agencies and we've put together a, uh, fantastic event that we've got coming up. And we've taken the intelligence officer training and it, it's more the, the psychological training. So this isn't your kind of, you know, shooting and driving stuff, this is, this is the psychological training that intelligence officers get. And we've compacted it in, um, a three-day event that is what's going to be useful to people in their everyday lives. And this is whether, whether they want a promotion, a new career, buying a car, buying a house, finding a wife, whatever it is. Um, it's, it's kind of utilizing the strategic thinking methods of the intelligence services and applying them to, to the, the, uh, everyday life of ordinary people to give them a, an advantage in everything they do. So, um, yeah, so it, it's, um, I've simply called it Spy Q, um, and the website is Spy - Q dot com. So it's, uh, it's about, uh, there's a holding page there at the moment, but, uh, very soon the, the full website will be up. So yeah, please check that out. And, uh, uh, and if there's any issues with it, then, you know, look me up on LinkedIn. [00:59:13] Chris: Brilliant. Well, where can listeners find out more about you and your work? [00:59:15] Gavin: So I, I do have a YouTube channel, which I, I kind of get a lot of friends and colleagues from the intelligence community. There's everybody from, guys from MI6, CIA, uh, NSA. You know, we, we all, I, I get them on, we interview them, and we talk about like, kind of, um, things from the fields, things we've done, experiences we've been through, that kind of stuff. Um, and then my books are, are in the usual places, Barnes and Noble, Amazon, that kind of thing. So, uh, yeah, I've, uh, I've done a, um, a series I've started called the Spys for Hire series, uh, and book one is The Unforgiven Spy, uh, which I've deliberately crammed with tons of trade craft in there, uh, for people to, uh, to be able to enjoy. [00:59:54] Chris: Cool, fantastic. Well, thank you very much for joining me today, Gavin. [00:59:57] Gavin: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been a, been a pleasure. [01:00:31] Announcer: Thanks for listening. This is Secrets and Spies.