[00:00:00] Announcer: Due to the themes of this podcast, listener discretion is advised. Lock your doors. Close the blinds. Change your passwords. This is Secrets and Spies. Secrets and Spies is a podcast that dives into the world of espionage, terrorism, geopolitics, and intrigue. This episode is presented by Matt Fulton and produced by Chris Carr. [00:00:36] Matt Fulton: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Secrets and Spies. Today, we're returning to one of the most secretive places on Earth: Area 51. But this isn't about aliens or wild conspiracies -- we're focusing on the real story of what it's like to legally photograph one of America's most sensitive military sites, all from public land. My guest is Michał Rokita, a photographer and field researcher with Dreamland Resort. He's traveled from Poland to Nevada five times now hiking into the desert to capture long-range images of Groom Lake, better known as Area 51. We talk about how he got started, what it takes to shoot clear photos from over 20 miles away, and some of what he's seen -- stealth fighters, strange landings, and even a test flight that may have been scrubbed because he was watching. It's a rare glimpse of the real Area 51 and the dedicated enthusiasts who've tracked its history from afar. Thanks for listening, thanks for watching. Take care. [00:01:29] Announcer: The opinions expressed by guests on Secrets and Spies do not necessarily represent those of the producers and sponsors of this podcast. [00:01:38] Matt: Michał Rokita, welcome to Secrets and Spies. It's so great to have you on and to see you, um, in person, finally. We've been talking for a bit, uh, offline for, for a good few months, so it's, it's good to like actually see you. [00:02:05] Michał Rokita: Yeah, it is good to see you as well, Matt. Thank you for contribution and thank you for the invitation. [00:02:10] Matt: Sure, yeah, of course. Yeah, I'm definitely interested. Uh, you know, Groom Lake is one of those, um, uh, very much in real life, uh, fascinations of mine. So, anytime I get a chance to talk about it, especially on this, um, podcast, you know, it's always a, it's always a good day, uh, for me. Um, so, uh, before we sort of get into it a bit, um, tell us, tell listeners a bit about, um, your, your, yourself, where you're from, and um, how you got into spotting classified aircraft, how you got interested in Groom Lake. [00:02:41] Michał: It's quite a long story, to be honest. I would start from the beginning because, yeah, the history just write himself. But I would say I just started to learning about the Groom Lake or all black projects, um, in ment, I would say in back in 2012. It was back then, when my father had just taught me about something like the place that is very isolated. It's very located, very outside of the public or big cities. It was like, uh, me listening the story with very, very impressive face and I would say I was amazed because of that. And after the short introduction of him and he taught me that it's about the Area 51, which also the nickname that I didn't hear back then never before. It was the first time he taught me about it, and after that I began searching the internet to, to get to some more information, some more recent information. And yeah, I got to know that this is the place that US Air Force is just doing their practices, their trainings, they testing the new hardware, new system avionics, and new aircraft there. And yeah, this is how it started to me because, uh, although I know from the beginning that probably the gray aliens that are in pop culture aren't among us, to be honest. Yes, I don't believe in such stuff and I have never been believed in such stuff. I knew that there must be something special in that place that needs to be hidden, and it's quite commonly corresponds to, to the national security, which is a very important factor for, for everyone. So I got to know, as far as I remember that I started to research on my own the popularity of the place, the discussion forums. So, from the side of the media. And after that there was a dream of mine that I would like to visit the place, uh, in real life just for myself. And yeah, I know that it could be kind of tricky thing to do back then, because back then I was like 15 or 14 years old, or even at 12 maybe, and I knew it's impossible at the time to visit the United States without an adult person that could, uh, travel with me. So, I had, I knew that I had to wait several years, at least several years to be able to, to go for my own trip. And finally, enough, it happened in 2022, when I first visited the Nevada Test and Training Range. It was back in the October, so late in the year, but the weather was pretty fine and it was very smooth for me. I got some good adventures on these old trips, uh, let alone and visiting the base, or observing the base itself. But yeah, there is plenty of stuff to do apart from it. And there is some kind of lag that you may have when visiting the places or you may not have when visiting the places. But it's quite entertaining, especially for me as a European person who is based, uh, mainly in Poland. Uh, Poland is my home country. I'm living here and I'm working here, and I work in commercial aviation. So, the subject of aircraft, of aviation, was always close to me. I was always growing in this environment that was surrounding the aircraft, maybe not especially the, the military aircraft, but civilian sort of aviation, and because of that, I started to learn about military aviation as well. And yeah, because of the Area 51 or Groom Lake is a core subject of this subject, I just had to just improve or give my, the best knowledge about it. [00:06:59] Matt: You know, I had, uh, Peter Merlin on last year talk about his massive book -- and I'll mention that a bit more at the end, that, that his, his, his book -- but, um, in the intro to that, I sort of felt like I had to sort of off the bat say, Yeah, we're gonna talk about Area 51, like that might be in the title, but you know, sorry folks don't get disappointed. Like, this isn't about, um, aliens. So you're very much part of that same, um, school of research, I guess, interest in, um, Groom Lake. You're, uh, a field researcher and a photographer for, um, uh, Dreamland Resort. So I wonder if, if, before we get into your trips, um, you could tell us a bit that like the more kind of serious aerospace, um, archeology or like historical research side of Groom Lake that, um, Dreamland Resort has done and Joerg Arnu, who runs the site, has done for many, many years, um, and that kind of a legacy of, like, the Dreamland Interceptors and, you know, because you're following in a long line of folks who have gone out into the desert and tried to get a peek at this place. [00:08:06] Michał: Yes, of course. The Dreamland Interceptors -- I would say, vaguely, Groom Lake Interceptors, but the main name was like Dreamland Interceptors, as you mentioned -- was a group of, uh, people who were just very interested, uh, to enhance or to get some kind of knowledge or additional information about what is going up there in that lone desert, a wild, wild West, and it began all around '92. [00:08:36] Matt: Mm-hmm. [00:08:36] Michał: And yeah, it was like a group of several guys who were just spotting out in the desert. They were just meeting with each other over there, and they were sitting on the very distant places from the viewpoints to see what is going on there, uh, at the basis. It was like, um, you know, camping, it was like making a trekking trips. Uh, there was a lot, a bit, a lot of fun over there, there was a lot of entertainment. But yeah, this was just a group of several people and the numbers started growing in time. I would say the original Interceptors who were, uh, just started the subject or started to, uh, improve the ability of just common knowledge people or outside people, uh, to learn about it were for sure, Peter Merlin, uh, which is the Shadow Hulk, of course, the nickname -- and there were some other people who were, who unfortunately are not, uh, among us still. But yeah, they were the core investigators. They were the core people that they were just starting to improve the knowledge about the subject and just came with it to the pop culture, to the media. And since then, since '92, the subject of Area 51 or Groom Lake was started growing in the media. The television were started doing the documentaries like the Discovery, or some other stations, and there were also some magazines, some monthly magazines like Aviation Week and Space Technology, who were starting to produce or write their own articles on their own sites about it. And it all lasted like 10 or 12 years up to the early 2000s when the group, uh, just disappeared. Just disappeared. Probably, they moved to some other subjects in their lives and mainly because some of them probably found the answers to the questions, they were satisfied with it, so they just moved to some other subjects. [00:10:52] Matt: The sort of time period that you're talking about is around, you know, you mentioned, um, the early '90s, even the late '80s also, when Groom Lake started to get some more public notoriety, kind of became the -- and a lot of that came from, you know, conspiracies around UFOs and everything with, uh, the Bob Lazar stuff and all that, which I guess put more of a public focus, um, on the base. But a lot of this, uh, research and stuff that the, you know, people like Peter Merlin and stuff started doing at the time, was sort of real, rooted in more of the, um, historical background of the base, like the, uh, development of the U-2 spy plane, the A-12 that became the SR-71, um, the development of the F-117, um, stealth fighter. So that's really kind of the school that, that those guys were all kind of, um, interested in. But, so at the time in the '90s, the early '90s when this started, in the late '80s and everything, you could get much closer to the base then than you could now. [00:11:56] Michał: That, yeah, that's of course, that's of course true. Uh, as you were saying, this was, uh, the time when the public restrictions weren't so tight as today. So you could get to the base in barely like 12 or 13 miles, which was half of the distance that you can get there today. There were two main viewpoints that the original Interceptors used to visit. This was the Freedom Ridge, and this was White Sides. Uh, it was just on the right side from Groom Lake. So basically it was the same perspective as you can get today, but the distance was much, much closer. And yeah, the accesses points to that places were much easier than this is today because the road leading to Tikaboo, the Badger Valley Road is in, uh, rough condition, I would say. Uh, it's not in as bad condition as it was like 2022 when I visited for the first time. Uh, but yeah, these two, um, view sites, I would say, which were the original ones, were, were much more affordable for anyone to, to get to. Now, if you don't, if you are not in a good shape or decent shape, uh, it's very difficult thing to get to the top of the Tikaboo because of the loose stones or loose rocks that are just awaiting you to skitting you back to the foot of the peak. And just because of that, uh, I guess it is one of the problems or reasons why the spots are not so commonly visited today, which is a big shame to be honest, because that is such a lovely place to visit. [00:13:39] Matt: Yeah. So, Freedom Ridge and White Sides were, um, parts of public land, right? Managed under the Bureau of, of Land Management. Um, they had a very clear, unobstructed view of Groom Lake. Um, around the same timeframe that you were talking about, the Air Force, uh, took that land and now the last, um, the last, uh, accessible piece of public land where you can view a good, a good fraction of the base, not, not all of it, but is up on Tikaboo Peak. This mountain is about 20 some odd miles away. Um, still publicly accessible, quite difficult to get up to. So I was wondering if you could just sort of tell us a bit, you know, you're coming from Poland, of course. [00:14:23] Michał: Yeah. [00:14:23] Matt: Uh, your first trip over there was in 2022. I was wondering if you could just walk us through what, uh, what, what kind of, uh, what preparation goes into a trip, maybe what you kind of learned over your different trips up there since going for the first time. Walk us, walk us through what it's like getting up there. [00:14:43] Michał: Yeah, the most demanding thing to, to start with, I would say is to, um, you not, you need to know, uh, the dangers or the dangerous things that you may met at the place in advance. That means that you need to prepare or follow the instructions to prepare yourself in a, in a good way, because without this, you are unable to even spend there two days. Uh, to be honest, when I started to learning of how to do the trip properly, I just shoot an email to, to some of the main characters that I knew were visiting the place and asked them very common, very simple question of how to spend the day. And it was like me teaching everything from the start, or from the beginning, uh, to the end, which was we, which would be the expression, to meet at the place with these standards that those people were taught to me. And it was undoubtedly something difficult. As I remember, I thought is like, well, I'm from Europe, so we have the mountain climate around here. So it's very common for me, especially as I living next to the Tatra Mountains in, in Poland, in Kraków, so I'm somewhat closely to the mountain ranges, uh, which are treated here as a very rough ones. And I would say this mountains that we have in Europe, when in comparison to the mountains ranges that are United States, are quite different. [00:16:27] Matt: Yeah. [00:16:28] Michał: Uh, the most different thing is the type of the surface that is surrounding you. You know, the climate is also a factor here because we have some mild, uh, climate here. We have the winds. We have the rains. So it's not so sharp as it is out there in the desert. Uh, if you're getting there, you need to take at least a good portion of mineral water alone, mineral water with you to be able to spend there one long day because you are so distant from any public places, from any population, uh, that without this, you wouldn't spend a day even. I would say you need to, like, eight liters of mineral water to, to be able to get to the peak, stay on the peak, and then get down from the peak, which sometimes is more difficult and more tricky than getting up. So, it was like me, uh, who needs to know in advance what to prepare. So I knew I need to take a lot of mineral water. I knew I need to take some kind of external additional clothes to me that would cover me in the cover of darkness. And beside it, I knew that there won't be any shops or groceries around that I could take or I could buy some very necessary important things. So the medicines, the common medicines, would need to take with me to the pla-, to the plane, and after that, up to the peak. So these are the three most, uh, important things to take -- the mineral water, the province, which is the food and drinks, and some medicines, because you never know what you will meet at the place, especially that the communication, the cellphones, communication is nowhere there. You are just spending the time there alone, just getting to the place, like a closed room, I would say, because you have no ability to spoke with outside world at all. Of course, the cell phones, there are some other providers that could provide you some good communication, but back then, when I have European phone only, I couldn't get, uh, enough, I would say the force of the communication signal to even, uh, get to this, the good portions of, of the communication levels. So I was, back then, I just told my family, uh, using the WiFi connection near the hotel that I'm probably going to the remote place and I want have any kind of communication with me. So when they got to know that they bought me a special GPS locator to put to, to my backpack, and it was traveling along with me to the top of the Tikaboo Mountain -- Tikaboo Peak, sorry. And after that, uh, I knew already that my new trips that I was, I was sure will happen in the future, uh, will be much better prepared. But it's, I would say it's very difficult to prepare yourself, eh, in a very good level without visiting the place for the first time. So, any recommendation for anyone who has not been there yet is to go there with someone else. Uh, me as a person who thought is good prepared because of the surround, uh, because of the mountains that surrounding us here in Europe, uh, in Poland, uh, I thought it could be a quite simple thing to do. But yeah, I was surprised. [00:20:23] Matt: Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back with more. Yeah, so you're a, uh, you're a photographer and some of the, um, some of really the best, I think, really kind of the, the only ones that I'm aware of, the more, um, panoramic, um, shots of the airfield from Tikaboo Peak, at least that have been published in, in recent years. Um, a lot of your work is on Dreamland Resort, it was also published in, um, The Aviationist last year. Um, so yeah, tell us like how, you know, when you get up there, what kind of equipment do you use and how do you kind of get those shots from, you know, over a 20-mile range through all those atmospheric conditions? I mean, I'm not a photographer at all, but I can imagine how, how difficult it must be. [00:21:24] Michał: Uh, to be honest, the trick is in the detail, but you need to have the long-lens camera with you, uh, which is some kind of newest hardware. My camera is like 5- or 6-year-old camera, the Nikon P1000. This is what I'm using at the trips up there. And it has inbuilt, uh, long-length camera, which has the ability to focus and zoom, uh, at particular places in very good sharpness. That means that you, of course, in post-production, you need to enhance a little bit the quality. You can use the shades, you can use the levels of colors, but uh, you need to get the decent photo in original to even start to work with it. So yeah, this camera, uh, is, uh, Nikon, purely Nikon-based camera, and I have no other additional equipments beside it that I'm using out there at the chase. Of course, uh, I'm not counting the tripod, which is need to be a very strong with to be heavy one because the camera, it is very heavy. Uh, it's very, uh, demanding for anyone to take a photo, uh, even on some trips anywhere in the world because this camera weighs alone like three or three-and-a-half kilogram. So it's not like, uh, taking a quick shot, quick photo because you are just unable to, to get the focus because you need to stand, you need to take it to the hand, just climb on the place and hit the camera buttons. So it's quite challenging sometimes, especially if I had no, any experience with such equipment before. It was my first time that I used a long-range camera just for the trip. And back then in 2022 at my first visit, I have just a small camera with me that I couldn't even get the good photo of hangars that are, that are at the base, let alone planes that are landing or approaching the, the airfield. So yeah, I was quite happy with the results I, I achieved at my second trip back then in May 2023. It was like seven or eight months of spare time when I had to prepare better when it comes to multimedia. [00:23:53] Matt: So is there a specific time of year or a time of day that you think is sort of like the opportune time that you like to get, that you like to get shots of the airfield? [00:24:02] Michał: Uh, yeah, you just need to avoid visiting the place, uh, in like December to March, and after that, from April to late October, you are free to go. But, uh, the other months that are specifically the winter months or late autumn months may be very difficult thing to, to contribute to because, uh, the winter months are very demanding when it comes to the weather. It's a wild, wild West. So, although it's a mountain range, it's a desert at night, it's very challenging because the temperature decreases just in a minute. Yeah, uh, I suffered that problem at one of my visits. I will be happy or delighted to- [00:24:50] Matt: Sure. [00:24:50] Michał: Exchange the subject. Yeah? [00:24:52] Matt: Yeah. [00:24:52] Michał: And it was like me who was trying to spend his first night at top of Tikaboo Peak. [00:25:01] Matt: Ah, so you were camping up there? [00:25:03] Michał: Yeah, I was camping up there two times and the first time was in May, 2023. But the weather in May is quite pleasant, I would say. [00:25:14] Matt: Uh-huh. [00:25:14] Michał: Comparing to the late of the year. And the weather in May was like, I would say, during the day it was like 30 Celsius, degrees, or something like that. [00:25:28] Matt: Yeah. [00:25:28] Michał: That was, yeah, that was during the day. At, at night it was lowered up to like 12 or 13. It was still quite, quite warm, I would say. And I thought that conditions could be all over there during all of the months for entire time, entire area. And after that, uh, after I processed to my third visit in October 2023, I got to know that I was in a big mistake. Yeah, it was mainly because, uh, I tried again to come at the top of the Tikaboo Peak. I take, of course all of the supplements, the minerals, the medicines with me, the backpack, the camera, and the tripod. And yeah, the sun was shining, I was there approximately about 3:00 p.m., Uh, at the top of the peak. So I prepared the tripod, I mounted the camera to it, and just, I waited for sunset. And yeah, when the sunset came, I noticed that the temperature begins to decreasing very, very fastly and steadfastly. And after that, of course, of the beautiful, uh, terrain and beautiful landscape that is surrounded with, because it's, uh -- by the way, it is a very beautiful place to watch the sunset or sunrise. [00:27:01] Matt: Yeah. [00:27:01] Michał: Because the weather is, yeah, cooperating with you. But back then, uh, I had just a backpack that includes an anorak, a sweater, a kind of supplements that were just ideal for me for my visit in May. But I didn't thought that the temperature would so strongly decrease and yeah, I, I was just frightened about me just because I got to know that I have no cell connection again. [00:27:38] Matt: Yeah. [00:27:38] Michał: As I, it used to be before, I have no additional anorak, I have no additional sweater. So I thought I would just lay on the grass -- on the, I should say the desert floor, not on the grass -- I would just lay on these rocks and I wait for the sun to came next day. And it was like me suffering the worst conditions I could ever met because during the night, it was like close to the midnight, the wind was blowing so strongly that it gave me the impression like the temperature is getting decreases even more. And it was like my feeling at the place at the time was I miss suffering like minus 15, or minus 12, or minus 20 even, uh, degrees of Celsius. So it was quite demanding experience, but I got a kind of good, I would say trophy. Uh, after the night, uh, especially, uh, early in the morning because, uh, it was my who just met the condition Watchdog Tango, which is something that was published by me on the YouTube channel of me. [00:28:55] Matt: Mm-hmm. [00:28:56] Michał: And of course by Aviationist website, because it was the case when the base probably, uh, canceled the flight test of something secret, something mystery, uh, because they didn't want me to see, uh, the platform, the plane, or some kind of restricted hardware that was supposed to operate from the base that day. [00:29:21] Matt: So they knew you, they, they knew that you were up there? [00:29:24] Michał: Definitely. They had to knew that I was up there because there is the weather station above Tikaboo Peak- [00:29:31] Matt: mm-hmm. [00:29:31] Michał: Uh, which has the camera there. I guess, that kind of equipment, uh, maybe, may be useful to, to spot some people that are visiting the place. I'm not sure about that of course, but it's just my guess. And apart from it, they knew that I already there because I was able to hear the Black Hawk helicopter that was approaching me from direction of the base, and it circled above me, just stood for something like 12 or 30 seconds, like observing me. [00:30:08] Matt: Mm-hmm. [00:30:09] Michał: And after that, it got back to the base and I could hear the communications, uh, of my scanner, of the frequencies that are contributing to the base, that there was Watchdog Tango effect is, yeah, in effect and they need to cancel the flight test. So it was quite of something that I wasn't sure it's so special back then, but after trying to research the subject, it was probably me who, who was responsible for it somehow. [00:30:41] Matt: Yeah. So you've, um, I guess that sort is a good segue into this, I mean, you've done, um, four trips out to Nevada now, is that correct? Is it four? Yeah, it, it was five trips already. Okay. Okay. So you're up to five now. Um, so you've gone to, uh, Tikaboo Peak a few times to look at, at at at Groom Lake. Um, you've also gone to, um, I know of, uh, Tonopah Test Range, which is at the northern end of the Nevada Test and Training Range. It's sort of Groom Lake's, um, sister airfield -- still quite secretive, not as secretive as Groom Lake though. Um, what have you, have you seen anything, um, anything interesting on these, on these trips? Spotted anything? [00:31:24] Michał: Yeah. Besides the very common things -- I would say common because it's uncommon for, for public, but common for, for, uh, Groom Lake viewers or watchers like me -- these are Janet flights that are, uh, very common there, yes? Because they had the schedule, they know when they just taking off from the Las Vegas McCarran Airport. [00:31:46] Matt: Yeah. [00:31:47] Michał: So you can do, know in advance that probably this is what is approaching the base, but apart from that, apart from these common jets that are very distinctive because it's the white, all-white 737- [00:32:01] Matt: Right. Those are the, um, those are like the contractor, um, shuttle flights that come from Las Vegas, uh, I, I multiple times a day back and forth to Groom Lake and Tonopah. [00:32:13] Michał: Yeah, that's correct. And apart from them, uh, of course I was very delighted, very happy to, to see F-117 for the first time in action. It was back then at Brianwash Butte- [00:32:26] Matt: mm-hmm. [00:32:27] Michał: Viewpoint, which is the viewpoint of Tonopah Test Range. It was back then in the October, 2023, and the visibility was very great back then. Uh, back in the day it was like very clear sky, very clear conditions so I could focus on the, uh, airplanes and good, uh, good quality photos very easily. There was no special preparing for it, it was like me just hearing on the scanner that Knights are getting out of their hangars and soon I got to see them just rolling on the tarmac, preparing for operations. I could see them rolling out of the hangars for the taxiways, out to the runway, and after that they were gone. [00:33:13] Matt: Yeah. [00:33:15] Michał: Yeah, it was, uh, one of these special planes, I would say, very distinctive planes, that are the history on its own. And it was the first time that I was able to, to see the Nighthawk in action. I was able to repeat it two times more after that in my upcoming trips, uh, but beside it, when we were speaking about certain aircraft types, uh, I was able to see the heavy or cargo aircraft at Tonopah Test Range as well, which happened just lately as last year. Uh, I could see plenty of fighters, plenty of bombers there. Uh, fighters, I would say are more common. And sometimes at night when you are able to, to spend a sleepless light out there alone, uh, you can observe some kind of lights, which are landing lights probably. Uh, they're approaching to the bases, to the airfields, both Groom Lake and Tonopah Test Range in complete, uh, silence on the radio. So this is something that is very interesting because uh, you know, you are prepared when you're seeing the aircraft that is approaching the runway. At even commercial airport, you are prepared to hear some kind of announcement or some kind of scanner communication, whereas at this particular event, you could only see the light that is coming to the base, uh, which you know, that is for sure some kind of aerospace craft and not some extraterrestrial kind of kind of stuff, and you probably are just seeing some light that is emitted by some kind of special or secret kind of aerospace aircraft. So that means that there is some shadow operation and that is just happening in front of you. You can observe it from legal viewpoints always, of course. And this is something that is very, very interesting in its own nature because you couldn't meet the standards anywhere in Europe, anywhere out at the world if you are not there at that Nevada place because that special, this is a very special place. Um, it's common knowledge from the '90s that they're testing the secret hardware there, so it's not surprising that you could meet it there. So because of that, I started my trips, uh, to just learn about it all on my own. [00:35:53] Matt: So, just some context for listeners: So, the F-117 Nighthawks, the stealth fighters that you were talking about that you've seen a few times now, they've been retired from combat service for, um, a number of years. Back in the 2000s they were retired, but there's a handful of them that are still flown, um, out of Tonopah Test Range by the Air Force Test Center, the same detachment of the Air Force Test Center that runs Tonopah and Groom Lake. Um, we believe they're run as, uh, aggressor fighters to help train, um, pilots that are working out of Nellis Air Force Base, much closer to Vegas, as, um, uh -- you would, you would fly them against the F-117 so that they can train what it's like to fight, say, a Chinese stealth fighter or evade a Chinese stealth, um, cruise missile, right? That's sort of the mission set that those F-117s would have. If there's another more classified angle to their mission, we don't, we don't know about it, but that's why we believe the F-117s are, are, are, are still flying. [00:37:00] Michał: Yeah, that's correct. They probably are just trainers, uh, for some other aerospace or hardware systems that are just going to be introduced in the nearest future. But yeah, it's, it's very fun to see them to, to, to present day, especially knowing that their retirement was back then in 2008. So it's quite like 18 years old- [00:37:24] Matt: Yeah. [00:37:24] Michał: 18 years from now. Quite, quite, quite a long time. [00:37:27] Matt: Yeah. So you and I got talking, um, last spring. Uh, it was shortly after I'd interviewed Peter Merlin on here. But, uh, you had, um, one of your trips to, to to Tonopah Test Range. Um, you got a picture of, uh -- and you can tell the story in a bit if, if you would like -- but you got a picture of, you were capturing like a big panorama of Tonopah Test Range, and in that shot close to one of the hangars, there was, we still don't quite know what it was, but there was something there that looked somewhat sort of aircraft-shaped. And I'm, so in, uh -- I've, I, I've told you this -- in my own research for my novels and stuff that I'm working on, there is a, um, a... Area 51 and Tonopah will be featured to an extent. And there's a facet of the plot, not to give too much away, that does involve a hypothetical classified aircraft of one that has been rumored to exist for a long time now. So that's where I got talking to you, sort of around this interest of mine for the novel. But I was wondering if you could, um, say a bit more about that sort of instance and the, um -- yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll start with there. If you could just tell us a bit more about that kind of, uh, instance of, you know, maybe caught something on the, on the, on the flight line there. [00:38:49] Michał: Yeah. Uh, so it was back on my new view spot that I visited for the first time. Uh, I always trying to prepare to my trips by looking for some spots that could be closer to the bases or just to be a different ones to, to meet with some new conditions, and I was able to locate some kind of view spot that could offer a good view of the Tonopah Test Range base, and I could see the place just from the north. So it was completely different perspective than looking at it from the right side- [00:39:27] Matt: mm-hmm. [00:39:27] Michał: Like it was on the Brainwash Butte, and of course I got there by car, uh, and I was just camping there, uh, for two days and one night. And it happened, uh, event that you are just describing or the situation that you're just describing, uh, is what, uh, I happened to see, uh, after the night. There was of course the plane that I referred to that was landing on the, on the TTR at, at night. I would say it was 2:00 a.m. at night and the craft land, and soon as it land, the, I would say the, any kind of light or flashlight or landing gear light just disappeared. So I couldn't get even to know what kind of taxiways it used to get to the hangar section. And funnily enough, uh, it was the same place, it was the same portion of runway that I last saw the aircraft, that what you describing now, so what you're referring to. So the kind of vehicle that was there at the apron, standing on the apron very early in the morning. So, you know, we got the good matching, uh, time, timespan here because the aircraft was landing at 2:00 a.m., and I got to see that vehicle like, or some kind of maybe maintenance vehicle- [00:40:55] Matt: Mm-hmm. [00:40:55] Michał: Uh, very early in the morning. Uh, from my investigation that I made in a post-production after returning from the trip using some, uh, some gen-, some image-generating images to just enhance the quality of it, it was some kind of maintenance vehicle that is just commonly used at the airport. So from my perspective, it was not necessary any kind of special aircraft or special hardware system. It was like the common maintenance vehicle, but you never know. It's open, it's quite, it's quite possible that it was something, but uh, the conditions at that morning weren't so promising as it, it used to be, so I couldn't get even sharper image of it, I only could post-product does it using some programs, but you know, the post-production itself is not the original image, so it's, uh, difficult to use by itself, yeah. [00:41:56] Matt: Anywhere you go, any of your view spots that you go to, whether it's up on Tikaboo Peak or around Tonopah Test Range somewhere, it's all public land. It's not- [00:42:06] Michał: Of course. [00:42:06] Matt: Within the restricted, sort of areas, of the range. You're not flying drones around. You're not, sort of, running up to the gate and kind of harassing the security force and putting videos of that on YouTube or anything. You're very much like, you're just getting sort of these panoramic, professional shots of the airfield from miles away from public land, right? So, I mean, how do you, kind of like, where do you see that line between sort of public curiosity of these programs and the need to sort of preserve the history of this sort of military aerospace development versus, like, protecting these classified programs and where would, where would you sort of draw that line? How do you, how do you feel about all that? [00:42:51] Michał: Yeah. Uh, I would say, yeah, it's very interesting subjects to get to because, uh, it's very important to note. Uh, I would say my intention was never to provide or distinguish any kind of secrets to online or to the public. Uh, it's, it's kind, it's kind of very, I would say it's very interesting because most people when thinking about some campers there that are surrounding the bases, uh, are just like a spice, they acting like a spice. [00:43:31] Matt: Right. [00:43:31] Michał: While in reality, this is completely different view. What I have, what I used to have and what all of the original Groom Lake or Dreamland Interceptors had is something else entirely. Uh, it cannot be missed because, uh, that could be devastating for us, to be honest. We are just getting there, uh, to learn about the place, the history. We can feel the history, we can see the hardware, we can see the progression of these beautiful places, while our mission is nowhere near to expose any secrets. Let's say, imagine a situation, if I were to catch or even record or take a photo of something secret that is operating from the base, I would definitely never and undoubtedly I would never post it online because this is the internal security of United States and I'm just European guy who is visiting the place, so I am not in process to expose their secrets. That could be kind of very bad logic to, to come with for me to just get at the places to record something and go to the media. I'm not doing this for money. I'm not, I'm not doing this on purpose. I'm just there doing my, to satisfy my curiosity, my hobby. [00:44:59] Matt: Yeah. [00:44:59] Michał: But in a good sense of it, to not harass, to not, uh, do any wrong decisions to any unpleasant situations to happen. Uh, it's just like me camping, just love doing this. [00:45:14] Matt: Right, yeah. No, I, I, I think that is sort of important to kind of remind folks that you are on public land, um, wherever you go around this place. And, you know, as far as what, um, you, and, and Joerg Arnu, and, and Peter Merlin, do, there are sort of, um, there's -- without really going into the specifics or anything -- but there, there has been, uh, information that's sort of been gleaned from this research over the years that, that I know at least in, in some cases hasn't been published because, while it's not classified, it's just sort of, like, perhaps more sensitive than needs to be out there. So there is still, you guys do still follow that, that line. [00:45:55] Michał: Yes. We still follow that line and it won't change, especially for all of the people that are very seriously thinking about it. Of course, you can see the members of some communities or there was of course the thing with the storming the Area 51, what a silly idea from the start- [00:46:14] Matt: Yeah. [00:46:15] Michał: To the end. Uh, it's about something else entirely. We are not communicating, we are not getting in touch with these kind of people. It's some, some kind of something totally different. We, we don't wanna contribute to them. [00:46:31] Matt: Right, yeah. Let's take a break and we'll be right back. I mentioned earlier the kind of the, the legacy of the dream lake, uh, of the, uh, Dreamland, um, Interceptors and, uh, you know, the, the work that -- I mean, there, there was sort of a, a much larger community of people that were doing this, you know, 20, 20, 30 years ago -- I wonder if you could, if there's anything you wanted to say about, you know, you and Joerg and Peter and whoever else is on the DLR forum of, of the importance of kind of bringing that sort of legacy of, of research and just kind of enthusiasm about, um, groom Lake and, and you know, preserving what we can, in an unclassified sense, the extent of, of the work that has been done there over the years. I wonder if you could talk more about that a bit. [00:47:34] Michał: Of course. Yeah, of course. The original contributors to the site, uh, the Joerg Arnu, the Peter Merlin uh, there were some other members, uh, of the community as well, were the ones who started in, in the new age, I would say, because the original Interceptors, the Groom Lake Interceptors, started in back in the early '90s. [00:47:55] Matt: Mm-hmm. [00:47:55] Michał: And after the group has disappeared, uh, there was like a gap, but the gap was soon filled with the Joerg Arnu, who introduced the Dreamland Resort website, and after that, there were of course some well-known contributors of very well writers or publications like Peter Merlin, or Shadow Hulk, who is still very active at, uh, at those trends, at those subjects all over the place. It's not only the Dreamland Resort, but there are very other common aviation forum, and I would say the legacy there, uh, is still keep in a good shape. So both Joerg, both Peter knows the stuff, so they wouldn't provide, they wouldn't even try to provide any kind of information that could be not in legacy of the place, or could be something that could be the worst for internal security of United States. And these are the guys that are, are the force of it and they are very good, were prepared for it to, to, to do the right stuff. So I could just learn from them, uh, how to do it and I was never the one who wanted to expose any secrets, as said. And those people were never the ones who were tried to expose it as well, especially the main characters that we speaking here, which is Joerg Arnu and Peter Merlin. These are true, real people who trying to get to the best of the researches using the legal, uh, possibilities. Yeah. [00:49:35] Matt: Mm-hmm, yeah. Um, anything else you would, uh, like to cover today before we, um, wrap up? Anything we haven't, uh, gotten to that you would, that you would like to? [00:49:45] Michał: Uh, I would say that it's very sad for me to be honest, that the group of today's, I would say the current Interceptors, is so small or so tight. [00:49:58] Matt: Mm-hmm. [00:49:58] Michał: Because apart from me, uh, which is a distant guy traveling from Poland, from Europe to United States, uh, there are no other examples of people who could try, uh, to visit the places. Uh, and by the places, I mean of course the Groom Lake area, Tonopah Test Range area, it seems that this subject is, uh, not modern today, I would say. To, to that extent that people are just trying to observe the forums, the discussion forums, and they don't want to do their own investigations, they don't want, don't want to do their own researches, which is something that I would highly recommend and you would be all welcome to even contact with me to even maybe hook with me to some of the trips. And we could do the common trips, I could see, show you some places. I could see how, uh, demanding, how entertaining it is to be out there even though there is no city malls, there is no shows around. This is quite interesting in it's nature because the camping there is the only place and the only kind of activity is not comparable to anything else, I would say. It's very special and very unique. So when you're getting up there, uh, you just need to know in advance that it's difficult time. It is not so easy as, like, opening the browser and see for some discussion forums, you need to prepare, but it's worth it. So, for anyone who is just thinking if it's fine or if it's okay to just spend a day or out there in that lonely desert, you wouldn't be disappointed. You'll be just happy enough. [00:51:46] Matt: Yeah, well, thank you for that. Yeah, I would, I would love to get up there, um, someday, someday soon. Yeah, definitely, definitely. [00:51:51] Michał: I hope so. Yeah. [00:51:52] Matt: Yeah, yeah. [00:51:52] Michał: I hope we can do the common trip. [00:51:53] Matt: Uh-huh. Yeah, for sure. I think eventually, yeah. We will, we will, we will figure that out. Um, where can listeners find more about you and your work? [00:52:03] Michał: Yeah, so it was like, uh, me who started in 2012 and, as I mentioned before, and after all that years, uh, I tend to learn about Area 51, about black projects, about Nevada itself, uh, quite massively. I used to visit Dreamland Resort website daily, it was like my homepage to start the browser. And of course there were some later the additional YouTube videos, there were some profiles that provided some kind of good content, so I used to follow them. I used to follow some Facebook groups and I, of course used to contact with some, uh, of these members, uh, to get some kind of additional info, particularly about what I was researching at the moment, and. For me, it was like the main hobby, it started to being a main hobby. I was a motorsport rally driver, um, back then, like six or seven years ago, so the kind of subject with Area 51 or Groom Lake and all the black projects just came a little bit down for me because I need, I had to focus on that particular motorsport career, but after, uh, I go to some medal, I go to some trophies, which can be seen just behind me, uh, I need to finish my career due to economical reasons, so I started to growing and enhancing my second hobby, which was the black projects aircraft and black projects environment to seeing the bases. And back then, so it was like 2021 when I drove the last rally of me, last motorsport event, I just came back to the subject of visiting the place and soon enough in 2022 I was able to do it. But the, I would say when you're visiting the places, uh, it's not only about visiting the airfield, the bases, it's about very general spectrum. I would say if you want to get a good quality photo, you need to get into the photography, you need to get into the, uh, lenses, you need to get into the settings, so your general or main knowledge increases. It's not only about the trips or trekking, it's about everything else that is somehow connected to it. So back then, in 2022, I was not even good at photography, I didn't even know how to set the correct settings to get a good and sharp photograph, let alone, like, using what kind of tripod to use. Nowadays it's quite different because I got to some kind of knowledge, I had to do my practice, and so there results are able to be seen on the Dreamland Resort website or my videos that I'm trying my best to, to be better from the visit to the visit. And now I have some new ideas that I want to check on my upcoming trip. Uh, I don't want to provide the exact date, but yeah, it's soon enough- [00:55:22] Matt: Yeah. [00:55:23] Michał: And I hope the results will get much better than it was even back on my last visit in August last year. [00:55:29] Matt: Yeah, well we will have, um, in the show notes, we'll have, uh, links to your, uh, YouTube page, um, to Dreamland Resort, and a link to Peter's book, which is the, um, definitive history of Area 51, just from, uh, uh, gajillion, different declassified documents and photos and, and, and interviews, um, that, that, that he's done. And I think that's really, those are like, really those three are great starting points for like, anyone interested in the actual history of Area 51 that isn't like, Ooh, aliens, you know, but like the actual real stuff. That's, that's where to go, um, cutting through all the conspiracy nonsense. [00:56:07] Michał: Yes, yes, yes. This is where the real fun begins, because for me it was always trying to get the real knowledge, to get the real information and not the UFO stuff. No, the UFO staff, uh, from my perspective, is something that, eh, to give you the good mood, is to trying to, uh, get you to the good kind of humor, but, uh, in real researches, I would tend to describe myself as being the kind of real researcher who is trying his best, as far as he can, to get to the real history and not imaginable history. So that's the kind of thing that I would like to, to note here, yeah. [00:56:53] Matt: Yeah, great. Thank you for that. Uh, great place to leave it for today. Um, well, Michał, thank you so much for coming on Secrets and Spies. Um, we'll definitely, uh, I don't know, a couple, couple more trips, we'll have to have you back on to, uh, check in with us. [00:57:07] Michał: Of course, of course. I will be happy to provide any kind of additional information or if there is anyone who is thinking about visiting the place, you can always shoot me an email or even contact me via Facebook. I will be delighted to provide any kind of necessary tips for your trips, and I will be even happier that if you could subscribe my YouTube channel or try to just follow me, uh, on Facebook. There is no, uh, particular Facebook, uh, site or any kind of profile that I'm just posting my videos, but I'm thinking about it as well. And of course, you can visit Dreamland Resort, which has tons of, tons of information that you would like to get. So yeah, just put on it and yeah, we'll see some of it. [00:57:55] Matt: Yeah, great. Yeah, definitely, definitely encourage that. And we'll have, we'll have links to all that, um, in the show notes. But yeah, uh, thank you so much for, for coming on. This has been a lot of fun. [00:58:04] Michał: Thank you so much, thank you so much again. It was pleasure to, to contribute in this project, in this subject. It was nice to see you. [00:58:11] Matt: Yes. [00:58:11] Michał: And thanks for our listeners who are listening to us. Uh, much greetings from Poland, much greetings from Michał? [00:58:17] Matt: Yes. All right, Michał. All right, well, uh, take care and we will, uh, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll talk more in the future, I'm sure. [00:58:23] Michał: Thank you. [00:58:23] Matt: Bye. [00:58:54] Announcer: Thanks for listening. This is Secrets and Spies.