[00:00:00] Announcer: Due to the themes of this podcast, listener discretion is advised. Lock your doors. Close the blinds. Change your passwords. This is Secrets and Spies. Secrets and Spies is a podcast that dives into the world of espionage, terrorism, geopolitics, and intrigue. This episode is presented by Matt Fulton and produced by Chris Carr. [00:00:38] Matt Fulton: Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Secrets and Spies. It's Matt here, but thankfully you won't hear much of me this episode. My good friend and spy thriller writer, Stephen England is guest hosting this one to speak with James Stejskal, a former US Army Special Forces soldier, CIA officer, historian, and author. James served in Special Forces Detachment A, one of the most secretive and legendary units of the Cold War. Based in Berlin, Det. A was trained for sabotage, guerrilla warfare and resistance operations behind Soviet lines if World War III ever kicked off. But in 1980, a handful of its operators were tapped for something different: Operation Eagle Claw, the doomed mission to rescue American hostages in Tehran. James' latest book, Mission Iran, unpacks that story, and in his conversation with Stephen, he sheds light on that and some of his time in the field, how his expertise in the Army and CIA shaped his writing, and what's next for him as an author. It's a fascinating chat with a man who's been in the thick of it. Thanks for listening, and I hope you enjoy their conversation. [00:01:38] Announcer: The opinions expressed by guests on Secrets and Spies do not necessarily represent those of the producers and sponsors of this podcast. [00:02:02] Stephen England: Hello, everyone. I'm author Stephen England and I'm here today with my friend, uh, James Stejskal to, uh, talk about his book, uh, Mission Iran, and his other, uh, publishing ventures. Good afternoon, James. Uh, why don't you tell us, uh, all a little bit about yourself, your background, and how you got into all of this? [00:02:22] James Stejskal: Yeah. Uh, yeah, with, [00:02:23] Stephen: So for the next two hours. [00:02:25] James: Start with the easy question, Stephen. Um, yeah, like you said, uh, my name is James. Um, I'm a former, a former of several things. I spent, um, 23 years in the Army. Uh, I started out as a child, uh, to quote Bill Cosby, uh, even if that's not politically correct. Um, and I spent, uh, another 14 years with the CIA. After that, uh, basically been retired since 2014 and I'm also a historian, and since uh, a while back I decided to put some of my thoughts on paper in both fiction and nonfiction. I started out with nonfiction. [00:03:12] Stephen: Yeah. [00:03:13] James: In a nutshell. [00:03:15] Stephen: That, that's an excellent summary. Yeah. Uh, what, I'm kinda curious, because I know you started out writing nonfiction with, uh, I'm trying to recall if it was your first book, but it was certainly one of your early books, uh, Special Forces Berlin, which talked about your old, uh, unit that you had been involved in, uh, back in the Cold War. And I'm curious kind of what was, uh, your, what brought about your transition from nonfiction to writing fiction? What, what drew your interest there? [00:03:46] James: Well, actually it is the other way around. [00:03:50] Stephen: Nice. [00:03:51] James: I, um, I did not publish any fiction, but I got interested in fiction while I was overseas and I dabbled in it, uh, sort of historical fiction, which is what I tend to go to now. [00:04:05] Stephen: Yeah. [00:04:05] James: Uh, but my first book, uh, was a nonfiction, historical, uh, a history of the German and South African confrontation during World War I. [00:04:22] Stephen: Oh, interesting. Okay. [00:04:22] James: The very first, the very first military operations in Africa during World War I, which was Southwest Africa. [00:04:30] Stephen: Yeah. [00:04:30] James: And, uh, I, I had seen a lot written on German East Africa, because it's a much more famous campaign naturally. Uh, but I was in Namibia, formerly the German Southwest Africa and then the Southwest African, uh, Protectorate of [00:04:49] Stephen: Okay. [00:04:49] James: Uh, the Republic of South Africa. And I was looking for the history and I could not find anything that was either all German or all English. And so I decided to combine what I could to find, find the true history of what was going on, and that resulted in a short, uh, chronology of that war. I mean, it was a short war. It was only a year long. Uh, but, uh, it was interesting to me because I had a lot of perils with, uh, parallels with, uh, Lawrence of Arabia, uh, because the environment was very desert-like, and I wrote about that too later. [00:05:29] Stephen: Yeah. [00:05:30] James: The Special Forces Berlin book, um, basically came out of a reunion that we had about 2012. This is after the unit was disbanded. Um, the unit was disbanded in, uh, 1991. So I figured it was long enough that I could actually write about it because it was a classified unit. And, um, anyway, we were at a reunion and we were talking about our history, who would preserve it? We all agreed that the Army would never write it. And someone who had seen my first book on Africa said, He can write. [00:06:16] Stephen: Yeah. [00:06:16] James: So you, you, you've heard that volunteered, right? [00:06:20] Stephen: Yeah. Tell our listeners, if you will, just a very brief, uh, summary of what, uh, Special Forces Berlin was about in terms of that unit and, uh, its, its history and purpose. [00:06:31] James: Um, well, it was a Cold War unit established in 1956, uh, and it remained classified until it was opened up, uh, in 1990, basically. Uh, it was a basically a reinforced company of Army Special Forces people who were forward based in Berlin, West Berlin, with the express purpose of being there, being in, well, actually being behind the lines. [00:07:03] Stephen: Yes. [00:07:04] James: As soon as when and if World War III started. So the balloon went up, we would already be in place. [00:07:11] Stephen: Yep. So be, be the thorn in the Soviet side. [00:07:14] James: Well, yeah, pretty much. Uh, I mean, a lot of people thought it was going to be the world's largest POW camp, Berlin. Um, but we, we decided we were going to try to cause as much havoc as we could. So it was, it was perhaps a suicidal mission, but our, our, orders were to cause havoc behind the Russian lines for up to 72 hours just to buy the people out in West Germany and Western Europe time to, um, get ready for what was coming. So, yeah. Yeah. [00:07:55] Stephen: Yeah. So I'm very curious, uh, two things, uh, about the, the writing, uh, having written both fiction and nonfiction, which do you enjoy more? Which do you find easier? Are they just so different that a, it's hard to say or? [00:08:11] James: That's an interesting question, and I think I've figured it out a little bit. Um, if I know the subject, if I am involved in the subject in one way or the other, either mentally or physically, or by my experiences, then I can write nonfiction easily. I'm gonna say easily. Not well, but easily. And yeah, I was in Africa, uh, so I was on the ground and that came easily to me. Because I was in Berlin, that came easily, easily to me. I spent a lot of time in Jordan and, uh, Syria, and so writing about Lawrence was easy for me. But once I get beyond that border, it becomes a little bit harder. Uh, fiction, I rely on my experiences to tell the story. In a lot of cases I can make it up, but, um, you fall back on what you know, uh, I think the adage goes. [00:09:17] Stephen: So, yeah, I was interested. I know there's been authors like, uh, David McCloskey, uh, who have talked about how their background at CIA with all of the, all of the writing of reports that's involved in intelligence work, the, the stuff that you don't see in the Bond movie, really, really helped prepare them for writing, uh, fiction. I'm curious whether your experience is similar in that regard. [00:09:42] James: Well, I would agree with David that, uh, especially the people that, uh, uh, worked in the analysis field were very talented writers. You have to be, or you get knocked out real quick. Um. Uh, when you get into the operations side, though, I've seen both really good writers and I've seen really lousy writers, so I, I'm hoping that I'm holding my own being somewhere in the middle there. Um, yeah, you, you learn how to economize on language and then at times you want to use the language to tell the story when you're writing a report. Basically, when we summarize our operations quite often you, you have to use that turn of phrase to describe what you're doing and not really tell the full story. So you have to be creative. I'll put it that way. [00:10:43] Stephen: Yeah, I was curious in fiction, uh, we often see the relationship between special forces and CIA, and between either group, honestly, and State Department portrayed in a, a very kind of adversarial manner. And I was, I was interested in, uh, your perspective because not only were you part of both Special Forces and then later CIA, but I also understand that you, uh, went on to, uh, marry a Foreign Service officer from State Department. [00:11:15] James: You found me out. Um, I think I'm probably one of the few guys that worked in an embassy under State Department cover as an Army officer. Also worked under, worked as an Army officer in an embassy, then worked under a State Department cover with the CIA. I worked outside the embassy also. But, and then, of course marrying, um, a Foreign Service officer, which taught me a lot. [00:11:50] Stephen: Yeah, so that's what I was really interested to know is, so as you progressed from being in Special Forces to then working for the Agency and then like I say, marrying into the Foreign Service, did you find your perspective on those other organizations really changing as you went along or? [00:12:08] James: Yeah, having served in all those different roles, and then of course being married, I got married to, uh, a Foreign Service officer. I met her while I was still in the Army, but I was overseas with the Army. [00:12:23] Stephen: In, in Africa, as I recall, right? [00:12:25] James: In Africa, in Kinshasa, uh, which is another historical piano of itself. Um. So you, you learn, you learn a lot of the nuances of what to do and what not to do. And it's, there are different cultures and you have to balance them. Um, which also has influenced my perspective on how I write about these people, because you're right, there are, there are conflicts. There are cultural biases on all sides, and I've seen it from, I've worked with the Agency in scenarios where what the Army was doing was totally messed up and vice versa. And then I've also seen it from the State Department side when either the military or the Agency is messed up. And then, of course, the State Department is not blameless. [00:13:23] Stephen: Yeah, yeah. [00:13:24] James: They do some really stupid stuff, too. So you get to see from all sides and it's really, it's interesting and in retrospect it's kind of fun. And so from time to time, I, I will throw that into my, into my writing. [00:13:40] Stephen: That's, that's fascinating. Yep. Uh, so as, as we record, it's only been a few weeks here, uh, since the passing of President Jimmy Carter. Your last nonfiction book, which I have here, uh, Mission Iran: Special Forces Berlin and Operation Eagle Claw, uh, focuses on the effort made to, uh, rescue the American hostages held in Iran, uh, during the latter part of his presidency, and then your unit's involvement in that operation. Uh, tell us a little bit about this book and how your, your unit, which was based in Berlin, uh, came to actually, uh, be involved in Eagle Claw. I was really fascinated by this when I first read Special Forces Berlin, because I've read about Eagle Claw, I've read Charlie Beckwith's book, so forth, and then kind of this came out of nowhere with Special Forces Forces Berlin. I was like, wow, this is a part of the story I never had encountered before. So, so share this, share with us and tell us about that part of it. [00:14:41] James: Well, obviously because the unit was classified, even more so than the guys down at Fort Bragg or Fort Liberty, whatever we're calling it this weak. Um, I mean the Big D was classified, but everybody knew it was there and they, everyone knew what its vision was, counterterrorism. Uh, but at the same time, our unit, um, had been in existence in Europe for a long time. Um, and around 1974, we had been given the same mission, uh, by the commander of American forces in Europe to conduct counterterrorism. Uh, so we had been at the game a little bit longer than Delta, like about four years. Um, and obviously Delta was the first choice because they had the manpower, they had the equipment, uh, and the backhand. But what they didn't have was, um, the ability to put people into Iran undercover to collect, uh, tactical intelligence that was needed for the operation. Uh, so they came to our unit because obviously we had Special Forces people, but we were trained to operate overseas foreign environments, undercover as civilians. And so some of our guys were chosen to go into Iran to collect that, that information that forces would need to, um, conduct their mission. And very early on in the mission, uh, Charlie Beckwith realized he did not have enough people for her the entire mission and said, I can only do the embassy. There were two targets, the embassy, which was a big target, and then the Foreign Ministry, where three Americans were held, which was a separate place. So our commander, who was in the briefing at the time, our people had already been dispatched into Iran, said, We can handle it. And so we were picked up and put into that mission along with Delta Force. Now, we were a small component of the first attempt, Eagle Claw. I think 90 people from, um, the one unit and about 11 of us, not counting the people that were already on the ground. So it was a small component, but that's, that's, uh, how the game was played. And then we continued on through that mission until it was shut down, uh, following the election of Ronald Reagan, uh, as president. [00:17:17] Stephen: And you were involved in the mission yourself as part of the unit, right? [00:17:21] James: I was. Uh, at the very beginning, we started to have, um, almost a competition within the unit, uh, to see who would go. Um, we were having basically, uh, shooting competitions, um, and other things just to decide who was gonna go. But at the end, uh, for Eagle Claw at least, the commander said, those of you that have already been committed to other operations, other exercises, other stuff, other schools, you continue to go, because they didn't wanna change the profile of the unit in any way. [00:18:02] Stephen: Yeah, yeah. Not alert people to that anything was going on, thing was going on. [00:18:07] James: Yeah. Well, you know, we were, we were in Berlin and we had a lot of eyes on us that were always watching what people were doing, so, yeah. That's what they decided. So they picked out, um, the people from, who basically were not going anywhere, who were otherwise qualified for the operation, and they took them on the first one. That changed after Eagle Claw when we were getting ready for the second mission. And then it was basically, this is the only thing we are doing. And, you know, now we went from a total of 13 people, uh, on the operation to about 40. So that was half the unit, basically. [00:18:48] Stephen: Yeah. [00:18:48] James: The three, three, uh, three of our ODA is three teams. [00:18:52] Stephen: You, you don't mention yourself too much in the book, but I found your name in the back, so. [00:18:57] James: Uh, yeah, I was, yeah. Some, sometimes I feel like the guy that's, you know, standing by the side of the field watching the other players. But, um, anyway, but, uh, I mean, throughout my career I've just had, huh, amazing people to work with. Uh, yeah. Some not-so-amazing people to work with, um, but, uh, you know, in Special Forces, 87.6% of the people I would never, I would want to work with again. Yeah, there's a few, there's a few you don't wanna work with for one reason or another, but, uh, yeah. [00:19:38] Stephen: To, to pick up briefly on something you were saying there, uh, I'm curious whether there was ever any indication, because you, you mentioned how after the failure of Eagle Claw and then the unit ramps up to try to, well, let's, this is our mission, let's see what we can do. Uh, was there ever any indication in later years that the East Germans or the Soviets had actually picked up on that? [00:20:02] James: Uh, while I was writing Special Forces Berlin, um, I got access to the, uh, archives of the East German Security Service after the wall went down. [00:20:14] Stephen: Mm. Yeah. [00:20:15] James: And I pulled, uh, with their help, with the researcher, the archivist's help, I pulled about 600 pages of information that was related to special operations and to our unit in Berlin. But I never found any indication that they knew what was happening. They knew, they knew there was a Special Forces unit in West Berlin. Uh, they did not have the people identified. They knew approximately where it was. Um, but beyond that, you know, I never saw anything that they, they had a good idea of, uh, that we were on the Iran mission. [00:20:52] Stephen: Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. That's really incredible, the extent to which, uh, you all were able to really mask your, uh, presence and activities, uh, in Berlin, under, under that much scrutiny. [00:21:04] James: Yeah. It was one of, I'll have to say it was one of the best assignments I've had in the Army. [00:21:09] Matt: Let's take a quick break and we'll be right back with more. [00:21:29] Stephen: Yeah, so I was kind of interested. So a few years ago, uh, before this latest book came out, Mission Iran, uh, you wrote a thriller called Appointment in Tehran. And it's a fantastic book, it's the second book of your Snake Eater Chronicles and one of my favorites of, uh, the thrillers you've written. Uh, but it takes place in the same historical events we've just been talking about here with the Berlin Brigade and their op, their involvement in Operation Eagle Claw. So I'm very curious, and we've, we've touched on this just a little bit in what you've already said, but tell us what it's like to write a thriller based, not just in real life events, but actually in real life events that you yourself took part in or were on the edges of. [00:22:17] James: Oooh. Um, when I was writing the nonfiction book, it was quite a revelation for me because I was bringing back memories of things that I did not, I did not remember. They were, they were spiked by the people I would talk to. And then I would go, oh, now I remember that. So sometimes it was difficult, but in, in writing the fiction, I think it played out that, that it helped me write because I knew the personalities I wanted to write about, and I infused those characters. I do that with almost all my books. I, I infused the characters that I know, the people I work with, the people I worked against, um, the good and the bad into a book. Um, so I think it made, it, it facilitated my ability to write that book. Um, and the rest of it was taking history and what-if, and melding the two together. And so from my knowledge of what actually happened and what might have happened, that's what, uh, that's where I'm gonna leave it. [00:23:37] Stephen: Yeah. [00:23:38] James: Kind of came together and, and it was not difficult to write. Um, that one, probably more than any other one was one of the easier and more fun ones to write. [00:23:49] Stephen: Yeah, I can, I can definitely see why. It's, it is a, it is an incredible blend of history and what-if, and, uh, maybe this is history we don't know about. There, there is, uh, you, you won't confirm or deny. I understand. [00:24:06] James: Confirm or deny what? [00:24:09] Stephen: Yeah, yeah. It, but it's, it's a really great, really great book and, uh, definitely, definitely one listeners should check out. [00:24:16] James: Well, thank you for that. [00:24:17] Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of your thrillers, uh, you have another one coming out this spring, uh, called the Rat Catcher of Berlin. I've had a chance to read a few chapters, haven't gotten too far into it, and obviously, uh, wouldn't wanna spoil any of it for, uh, listeners in any case. But, uh, from what I've read, this novel is set a lot earlier than your previous, uh, Snake Eater series with A Question in Time, Appointment in Tehran, uh, Direct Legacy, so forth. Uh, so it, it seems like you're kind of going back to, uh, write a bit of an origin story for the Special Forces unit in Berlin. [00:24:56] James: That's exactly the word I would use was origin story. And like the other books, no, unlike the other books, uh, which I could rely on my own knowledge, perspective and experience, this one, I had to go back, um, because it takes place in 1957, 1958. That's when I was three years old. So, my experiences are, are somewhere else about that time. But I was told a story by one of the so-called plank holders of the unit. Uh, if you remember, the unit was established in 1956. [00:25:36] Stephen: Yes. [00:25:36] James: And he told me a story which I could not include in the history because I was not able to sufficiently verify it. [00:25:47] Stephen: Mm. [00:25:48] James: So when I wanted to go back to the origin story for, um, the Special Forces, for the Snake Eater Chronicles, um, I went back to his story and I built up upon that. And it's also based in a lot of history, but with a lot of personal anecdotes that cannot be completely confirmed. [00:26:17] Stephen: So, so in some ways a lot of the, um, as it were, kind of the stories you heard as being a, a member of the unit in later years, some of the, the legends of the unit as it were. [00:26:30] James: Yeah. To put, to put it succinctly, yes. That's the way to do it. And it's a very interesting time because other people have written about it, so, and very well, I might add, like Joseph Cannon. And this is before the wall went up in 1961 and when we were still able to easily go back and forth between the east and west. Um, so the things that happened there are, they have almost, they um, there's another movie called The Third Man. Um, and it's talking about Vienna, but it has a very dark and sort of ominous, uh, setting or feeling to it because that was a real, uh, pretty rough time in the history of Berlin in the late fifties. And it was before things had become normalized. Um, there was a lot more cloak and dagger, and I want to emphasize a lot more of the dagger parts going on in Berlin. And so that's, that's where this book comes, uh, comes out. And it's basically the story of what happens when you find a counterintelligence agent murdered on the border between the east and west and how does the rivalry, we spoke about rivalry before, how does the rivalry between the CIA and the US Army Special Forces play out in a situation like that? [00:28:01] Stephen: And I'm sure even just the jurisdictional, uh, aspects at that point in time would've been quite challenging. [00:28:10] James: Uh, that was challenging all the way up to 1990 because basically you had a, you didn't have, it was a political entity unlike any other one. It was an occupied city until 1990. [00:28:24] Stephen: Right. [00:28:24] James: So the, the military commanders were in charge. You had intelligence operations, people doing stuff there. But the military commanders were basically, lord and master. The British, French, American, and Russians. Um, so you had a lot of interesting things happening that would not have happened anyplace else because out in Western Germany we had a regular CIA station in Bonn. The CIA was in charge of all intelligence operations. In Berlin, it was a nebulous kind of thing and very much a shared responsibility. Um, so it was up to almost anybody to determine how best to go forward or how best to mess up. [00:29:16] Stephen: And bureaucracies love to share. [00:29:19] James: Oh, yeah. That, uh, that's been going on forever. I mean, I think the relationship between the military and the intelligence community is much better now. We've learned to play together. But that bureaucracy, that rivalry, it's very much still there. [00:29:35] Stephen: Yeah. [00:29:35] James: Especially between Green Army and the Agency. The, the, the real Army, well, they don't like Special Forces, they don't like the, [00:29:45] Stephen: Right. [00:29:45] James: Any special operations units, and they hate the CIA and the FBI, so. [00:29:50] Stephen: So you, so you put Green Army in charge of the American part of Berlin having to deal with all those people. [00:29:58] James: Yeah. Yeah. It messes things up, so, that I can speak to personally. [00:30:03] Stephen: Oh wow. Yeah. Yeah. So if you can, I, I realize this could be, uh, it's in itself a bit of a spoiler, uh, but what do you, what do you have planned, uh, next? Do you intend for Rat Catcher to be a standalone or is it kind of the start of a new series looking at those early years? [00:30:21] James: Uh, actually, actually, Rat Catcher feeds into the series that exists. Um, A Question of Time was my first novel, and that takes place in the late seventies. So between Rat Catcher and that novel, I've got about 20 years to figure out what to do with so that it can continue in there. [00:30:47] Stephen: Yeah. Any more, any more unit legends to, uh, work into the series? [00:30:52] James: Oh, there, there are, there are a lot of them. Uh, but I'm actually, I'm actually working on an independent, um, thriller that's going to be more, more, um, straight intelligence, um, based with very little special operations in it. There will be special operations because no matter what anybody says, intelligence operations rarely take place in a vacuum, except in places like London and Washington, um, maybe Moscow. Yeah, there's always some kind of, uh. Covert action or special operations aspect to them? Almost always. [00:31:38] Stephen: Hmm. Yeah. Well that's, that sounds quite interesting. Uh, where is this, uh, new one set, uh, geographically speaking? Can you say? [00:31:46] James: Uh, right now most of it seems to be in Africa, in the Horn of Africa, though. [00:31:52] Stephen: Yeah. [00:31:52] James: Which is one of those sideshows of a sideshow because when you've got Iraq and Afghanistan going on, then you also got things going on in Africa. And people don't see that as a real issue, but it is. [00:32:08] Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. So is the, is the timeline for the new book, uh, more in the Afghanistan, Iraq, uh, period or? [00:32:17] James: Current. It's more current. So yeah, about, about 2020. Somewhere in that neighborhood. [00:32:23] Stephen: Very nice. Yeah. Yeah. I look, I look forward to reading that then. That does, uh, remind me what you were saying there, uh, of a question I failed to ask earlier, which was you were talking about how you actually started writing fiction first and then move to nonfiction with just some book ideas you'd had and that you worked on. I'm curious, have any of those ideas actually come to see the light of day or have you kind of, had you kind of moved past those early, uh, projects? [00:32:53] James: Uh, no portions of them have fallen their way in. In fact, A Question of Time [00:32:59] Stephen: Okay. [00:32:59] James: Leads off with one of the ideas I was working on in Berlin, actually, when I was writing. Uh, I've got other ones. Um, I've got some stuff thinking about World War I in Africa. I've got, uh, some stuff about during the Great Purge in, uh, Stalin's Russia, about 1936 and how the Germans, uh, were involved in, in the purge of Stalin's military corps. Um. I've got all kinds of ideas, just not enough time to write about them. [00:33:32] Stephen: It is a question of time. [00:33:34] James: Uh, there you have it. Yeah. [00:33:36] Stephen: Uh, yeah. Well, that sounds fascinating. I really look, I look forward to reading those and, uh, yeah. Yep. Well, we, I look forward also to getting back into Rat Catcher and, uh, reading the rest of that. Sounds like it'll be a fascinating read, so. [00:33:50] James: Well, I, I hope so. The, the only other thing I've got that's in the, in the production line right now is actually a, what I will call A Spies Guide to Cold War Berlin, um, which will be, [00:34:07] Stephen: I've seen some of your posts about that, yeah. [00:34:09] James: Which will be word and image about, uh, Berlin during the Cold War. So, um, that's in the pipeline, uh, hopefully for June. Uh, [00:34:20] Stephen: Nice. [00:34:20] James: We'll see how that comes out. Rat Catcher comes out in April, I think. [00:34:24] Stephen: Okay. Yeah. Good, good. [00:34:26] James: Inshallah. [00:34:28] Stephen: Yeah. Uh, this is, this is a little random, uh, but kind of tying in again with the kind of intersection of fiction and reality. Uh, there's a lot of really great pictures in this book and, uh, I was, I was intrigued because I don't know if you're familiar with the old, uh, British, uh, TV show, uh, spy show, Sandbaggers, uh, but I was, I've, I've been watching that, uh, recently and I was very intrigued looking at the pictures in Mission Iran of the Special Forces Berlin, uh, members and soldiers. And then looking at, uh, the portrayal in Sandbaggers of the, kind of the look. And it struck me, probably just because I was watching the show during, while I was, during the time I was reading the book, but it really struck me that whether, whether it was just a case of, uh, your unit really getting the cultural aesthetic at the time, trying to look civilian, trying to blend in, or whether The Sandbaggers, uh, producers really kind of got what that, that aesthetic was. But there, there look, there was a lot of similarity. It was fascinating to me. [00:35:40] James: Well, you have to remember, this is, uh, what, seventies, eighties? [00:35:44] Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. [00:35:45] James: You look at, um, Northern Ireland, for example, with the Special Air Service and, uh, they're unusual units. Uh, if you see pictures of those guys, they look remarkably similar. Same thing, our guys, you know, we were trying to, we were trying to obviously, uh, blend in. Um, so we ended up with German clothes, German haircuts. And I have to tell you that a couple of times we ran across British soldiers doing similar things that we were doing in Germany or in Berlin. And unless you looked at the pistol, you would not know which was which because he looked conspicuously similar. You know, uh, leather jack, uh, long hair, uh, things like that. But, uh, yeah, um, I think, I think they've done their research well in Sandbaggers, a number of other, uh, uh, movies or TV shows like that. [00:36:54] Stephen: Do you, do you have any favorites in the, in the genre of like, uh, spy TV shows or novels or so forth? Not, not to put you on the spot. [00:37:06] James: No, you just did because there's, there's so many choices. [00:37:09] Stephen: Yeah. [00:37:09] James: Um, I mean, from the different movies, uh, Spy Who Came in from the Cold, uh, Funeral in Berlin, uh, Spy Game. [00:37:21] Stephen: Yeah. Yeah. [00:37:22] James: The Night Manager. Uh, [00:37:25] Stephen: Yeah, that was good. [00:37:26] James: Herron, Mick Herron's series, which is hilarious if, if very improbable. But, uh, but there, Herron's series get you to the root of the kind of political and backstabbing machinations that go on in an intelligence organization, and he does it perfectly. [00:37:46] Stephen: He, he seems, he seems to capture the spirit and filter it through a slightly, almost a bit of a fun house mirror type lens of, uh, of the Slow Horses. [00:37:58] James: He does, but he is concentrated in one spot, probably what, eight, nine personalities that, that might normally be spread out across several hundred, uh, personnel, but he does it so well. I, I love it. [00:38:19] Stephen: Yeah, yeah. Well, as we, uh, as we wrap up here, is there anything, uh, we haven't covered that you would like to, uh, before we leave? [00:38:27] James: I'm just, uh, it's great thing, great opportunity to talk to people. Um, I would give a shout out to, if I may, to the Spy Library and the Spybrarians, uh, on Facebook. [00:38:43] Stephen: Yeah, that's a great group. [00:38:45] James: It's a great place to get into good discussions about all sorts of spy related literature, both fact and fiction. So that's, I encourage people to go there. Yeah. Other than that, just keep reading. [00:39:01] Stephen: Yup, and you keep writing. Uh, where, so speaking of, uh, places to go, uh, where can people go to learn more about you and your work? [00:39:08] James: Uh, um, well, unfortunately I have a really lousy website. Uh, probably the best place to see anything about me is on my Facebook site. Um, so it's just James Stejskal. If you plugged it in the Facebook, uh, you'll get, uh, the announcements about my books, uh, some thoughts on my writing and a lot of extraneous stuff that may or may not be related to, to reality. [00:39:37] Stephen: Yep. Well, good deal. This, uh, this has been a pleasure, James. It's good to have you here on Secrets and Spies. [00:39:46] James: Well, thanks for having me. [00:39:48] Stephen: Yes, indeed. Thank you so much. Good, good talking with you. [00:39:52] James: Take care, Stephen. [00:39:53] Stephen: You as well. [00:40:20] Announcer: Thanks for listening. This is Secrets and Spies.