[00:00:04] Secrets and Spies presents Espresso Martini with Chris Carr and Matt Fulton.

[00:00:51] We recorded an episode in December and sadly that didn't happen. So, Matt, how are you? It's been a little while, hasn't it? Matt Fulton I'm doing good. I'm doing good. I got my provisions here since our first Espresso Martini in two months. I figured why not make the real thing. It's not noon here yet, but it will be by the time we're done recording this. So I figure, you know, why not? Matt Fulton It's noon somewhere.

[00:01:17] Matt Fulton Right. It's noon, 40 minutes away from where I'm sitting right now. Matt Fulton No, fair enough. Matt Fulton That's not how time zones work. Matt Fulton But yes, it'll be noon here shortly. Matt Fulton Cool. Well, that's good. That's good. Matt Fulton Or you could, I remember once freaking out, as a friend of mine having a pint of beer with breakfast at like 11am. But it was like, well, it's holiday rules. Matt Fulton Yeah. Matt Fulton Sometimes a pint of beer is quite nice at breakfast. Matt Fulton Not often. Matt Fulton I had Guinness and pancakes for the rest of the day.

[00:01:47] Matt Fulton Oh yes. Matt Fulton I think I saw that picture. Matt Fulton Yeah. Matt Fulton Very nice. Matt Fulton Yeah. Matt Fulton Yeah. Matt Fulton Yeah. Matt Fulton Yeah. Matt Fulton Yeah. Matt Fulton So there we go. Matt Fulton So whilst we click, you know, join AA, Matt Fulton Well, I'll just outline what we're going to be talking about other than alcohol and breakfast choices. Matt Fulton So today, we're going to be looking at President Trump, who's been pardoning individuals involved in the January 6th capital riots.

[00:02:17] Matt Fulton We're then going to look at the events of Syria, because obviously there's been a massive change in Syria since we all last spoke. Matt Fulton And then we're going to finish up looking at the CIA's covert relationship with Ukraine's intelligence services. Matt Fulton And then at the end of this show, we're going to move on to our final episode of Extra Shot, which is kind of going into our virtual boneyard in the desert somewhere. Matt Fulton And it may come back in the future. Matt Fulton But for now, we're retiring Extra Shot because we're planning to go weekly on

[00:02:46] Espresso Martini. Matt Fulton So we're just trying to put our resources in the right place. Matt Fulton So on that final Extra Shot, we'll be looking at the outgoing CIA director, William Burns and his legacy. Matt Fulton Then we're going to be looking at new information on the Chinese balloon saga of, it was 2023, wasn't it? Matt Fulton Yes. Matt Fulton Yeah, I remember that. Matt Fulton It was good. Matt Fulton It was kind of, from my point of view, it was quite fun watching it all play out on Twitter. Matt Fulton But anyway, that's a whole other thing.

[00:03:12] Matt Fulton Then we're going to look at China's latest sixth generation Pfizer that's been going out and doing some tests. Matt Fulton And then we're going to wrap up looking at a CIA officer's love affair of watches. Matt Fulton So we've got quite a lot of interesting things to discuss. Matt Fulton So first of all, I'm going to move us on to the January 6 pardons. Matt Fulton So I will summarize my best I can.

[00:03:38] Matt Fulton So on his first day back in office, President Trump granted pardons and commutations to 1,500 individuals charged in connection with the January 6 Capitol riot, including those convicted of assaulting police officers. The Federal Bureau of Prisons released more than 200 individuals involved in the January 6 attack, including prominent figures like Stuart Rhodes from the Oath Keepers and Enrique

[00:04:04] Taro from the Proud Boys, who had long, who had been serving long sentences for seditious conspiracy. Judges began dismissing dozens of pending January 6 cases with motions filed by the newly appointed US Attorney Ed Martin, who is a supporter of the rioters, which highlights Trump's influence on the Justice Department's approach to these prosecutions. Trump defended his decision stating that the rioters had served harsh prison sentences,

[00:04:33] and he claimed that they were kept in conditions that were inhumane. Trump's pardons for the January 6 rioters has been criticized for undermining justice, embolding far-right extremists, and questioning the integrity of the justice system, whilst further polarizing the nation and disregarding the victims of the attack. David Nyward, who is an expert on US far-right, warned that granting clemency to the January

[00:04:58] 6 insurrectionists won't just own the libs, it sends a message that anti-democratic violence will have the presence blessing. David fears that Trump's pardons could greenlight further political violence. So, yeah, all eyes are currently on America right now. So, Matt, what are your thoughts and observations on all of this? I just sort of wanted to zoom in and look at a few of the people that were specifically pardoned

[00:05:27] and what they were pardoned for. So, those pardon include more than 250 people who were convicted of assault charges, some having attacked police with makeshift weapons such as flagpoles, a hockey stick, and a crutch. Many of the attacks were captured on surveillance or body camera footage that showed riders engaging in hand-to-hand combat with police as officers desperately fought to beat back the angry crowd.

[00:05:54] Amongst those, David Dempsey was sentenced to 20 years. Not anymore, but he was. According to prosecutors, Dempsey viciously assaulted, I'm quoting here, viciously assaulted and injured police officers defending the Lower West Terrace Tunnel with a variety of implements here fashioned as weapons. For over an hour on the day of the attack, Dempsey climbed the top his fellow riders, using them like human scaffolding, thrusting himself to the front.

[00:06:22] Once he reached the mouth of the tunnel, Dempsey began a prolonged attack, fighting with his hands, feet, flagpoles, because we're so patriotic, crutches, pepper spray, broken pieces of furniture, and anything else he could get his hands on as weapons against the police. Dempsey's violence reached such extremes that at one point he attacked a fellow rider who was trying to disarm him. Then there's a DC Metro police officer, Michael Fanone. Yeah.

[00:06:51] Because he recalled being dragged from a line of police officers into the heart of the mob, where riders beat him and attempted to take his service weapon. Recall on the day of hearing on video clips them saying, shoot him with his own gun. Fanone was shocked multiple times in the neck with a taser, wielded by Daniel Joseph DJ Rodriguez, and suffered a heart attack at some point during the day, a concussion, traumatic brain injury, and was later diagnosed with PTSD.

[00:07:20] Of course, Rodriguez was sentenced to over 12 years in prison for his assault against Fanone. He was paroled. He was pardoned. In July of last year, Peter Francis Stagger, I believe is how you say it, Stager, Stagger? I'll spell it. Peter Francis Stagger, S-T-A-G-E-R. A truck driver from Arkansas was sentenced to four years and four months in prison after pleading guilty to assaulting an officer with a deadly or dangerous weapon.

[00:07:47] In this case, again, a flagpole because we're so patriotic, we beat law enforcement officers with them. Prosecutors said Stagger himself wielded a flagpole and again, quoting here, Stagger himself wielded a flagpole and used it to strike at a vulnerable officer who lying face down in a mob of rioters had no means of defending himself. And Stagger said on film that day, I've seen it, every single one of those capital law enforcement officers, death is the remedy. That is the only remedy they get.

[00:08:16] So all of those people were pardoned. Chris, what do you think? Well, it's really, from the outside looking in, this appears like madness, to be frank. This is not good for the rule of law. If we take the political motivations out of the participants of the January 6th attack, as you've outlined, many of those individuals have participated in violence against police officers.

[00:08:44] They physically damaged property and they have trespassed into government buildings. And also, let's not forget, one of the suspects left pipe bombs around Washington, D.C. Still haven't caught that person. Still have no idea who that person is. Yeah. And does that individual now get a free pass? I don't know on that one, but... Well, they weren't charged. They weren't arrested. They weren't charged. So they weren't pardoned for that because they'd never been... We don't know who they are.

[00:09:09] So if they get found, do you think that falls into the remit of the pardon or how does that work? No. Um, I mean, I guess there would be all kinds of complications on whether the U.S. Attorney's Office in D.C., whether the FBI, whether, you know, you would put the investigative resources into tracking this person down in the first place. Mm-hmm.

[00:09:33] You know, I don't know how, you know, as of what last Sunday, um, how close federal law enforcement was to tracking this person down. But, you know, if they were, they could just look the other way. Yeah. Yeah, indeed. It was taken... If they were ordered to from the top, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, it's an interesting one. Well, we'll, we'll, yeah, keep an eye on that one. And maybe even at some point reach out to an expert and check on that because that's really worrying.

[00:10:01] So, I mean, as, as I'm saying, sort of like, if you take the politics out of it, which is used as a cover, the very basics of what happened, it is clear that the people who were found guilty were found guilty of violence and criminal damage at the very least. And, um, where I come from, if you are found guilty of violence or criminal acts, like your damage, you know, you're supposed to go to jail. You know, you've broken the law.

[00:10:26] And, um, so, yeah, this, this sends a message that violence is acceptable as long as in the name of whatever ideology is kind of in vogue at the White House. Yeah. Which is wrong. Um, you know, laws are not perfect. Some are not always right, but the majority of laws have been put in place to protect the public and the state.

[00:10:44] And if you don't use due process to adjust laws and just create a situation where you can pick and choose laws, then, you know, we start to see the collapse of the rule of law and anarchy take hold. And, um, I know there are some people out there who think anarchy is a positive thing. Um, I don't know why, but they do. But history has shown time and time again that anarchy favors those who have weapons and those who are using, who are willing to use violence to empower themselves.

[00:11:13] And that's where it feels like we're heading with things like this. Um, and there's a great article published by David Nywert, which will be in the show notes from his sub stack about his concerns for political violence rising after these pardons. And in the article, he talks about and shows videos that he shot at a series of far right events he attended from 2017 to 2022.

[00:11:38] And he says he doesn't use the term neo-Nazi loosely, but at those events they, um, that he covered, there were many among the ranks who were neo-Nazis. And only time will tell if there will be further political violence from people who are in the belief that President Trump will pardon them. Because that's always been his fear that people are going to do things thinking that Trump will pardon them. And Trump has now proven them correct. And that's not a good message.

[00:12:07] Domestic terrorism has been an issue for a long time that I think the FBI and the Justice Department have got a fumbled over. I know there's, um, you know, sort of, uh, issues with the Constitution about how to deal with, um, domestic terrorists. But quite frankly, you know, you're a country of a nation of laws of a lot of very intelligent people who should have dealt with this a long time ago. I mean, God, we'll talk about domestic terrorism in the 90s after Timothy McVeigh bombed the Edward R. Morrow building.

[00:12:36] So why on earth now in 2025, it's still an issue that the FBI are kind of like, wow, what is a domestic terrorist? What isn't? You know, it's, it's just ridiculous. So that's kind of allowed all this to kind of happen really. So yeah, that's, that's my outsider's view looking in, um, with great disappointment. Uh, because I've always hold America in high esteem and it's just very disappointing to see what's happened.

[00:13:02] I would just ask, you know, if there's, um, listeners and I know there are, uh, listeners who work in federal law enforcement or retired from not just federal law enforcement, any kind of law enforcement, but, uh, who work in law enforcement or retired law enforcement, perhaps have immediate family members who are or were in law enforcement.

[00:13:21] Um, if, if you, or, or they went to work one day, um, doing their job and someone, um, drove a stun gun into their neck repeatedly or beat them with a flagpole or said of them, uh, where's the quote? So every single one of those capital law enforcement officers, uh, death is the remedy. That is the only remedy they get.

[00:13:48] If this individual was talking about you or your loved one, how would you feel at the present? Pardon them. Um, I would just open, open question how you would feel about that. Um, the other prediction I'm going to make here, I don't like making predictions, but I will in this case. Yeah. Put your Nostradamus hat on. Yes. Here, let me take another sip of my espresso martini. Um, it powered Nostradamus. So I can power you. Yes.

[00:14:12] Um, there is at least one American alive today who had nothing to do with January 6th or the 2020 election. No connection to it whatsoever. There was at least one American alive today who will not be in four years time, um, because of one of the people who were, uh, pardoned, um, the other day. I'm going to make that prediction.

[00:14:35] And I think when that happens, um, uh, you should make one of the Americans in your life who voted to make this a reality, acutely aware of what, what, what happened.

[00:15:15] Um, and, and, and, and obviously domestic violence. Because violence against women is a common theme with terror suspects. Um, it comes up time and time again. I actually do want to do a podcast on this. So I'm not going to delve into this too much because I'm still, you know, still getting my head around it. But there is a very clear link between domestic violence and then turning to terrorism.

[00:15:40] And so unfortunately, quite a few of these suspects have been involved in domestic violence. And when they go home, you can guarantee that within a few days or a week, their partner is going to have the shit beaten out of them, to put it bluntly. So how does that make you feel? You know, those out there listening, it doesn't make me feel good. I would also add to your point there, the question, because we're asking questions today, right? Just asking questions, just curious. Yes.

[00:16:10] If one is pardoned and then goes out into the world and then proceeds to retaliate physically or however, against the people who put them in prison in the first place, are they repentant and worthy of a pardon at all? Yeah. Yeah. Well, one suspect I did read has gone back into jail for firearms offenses. Yeah. He was out for like, it was like a revolving door. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:36] So it's, yeah, those who've committed acts of violence usually will do it again unless they, you know, that going to prison really turn their life around, which is, it's not impossible. People do reform. Yeah, totally. But I think statistically, statistically, I think that unfortunately most people who get arrested for violent acts tend to reoffend. So, yeah, so we'll see what happens with them.

[00:17:04] One woman, I don't have her name in front of me right now, but she was convicted of some violation on that day and was, and rejected the pardon because she said, no, we were guilty. We committed a crime that day. We were wrong. Yeah. She's the only one, I think, worthy of that pardon, actually. Well, yeah, there comes a question of ownership of these things too. I kind of find, yeah, we've spoken a bit off air.

[00:17:31] We, you know, obviously, let me put it clear to a lot of listeners out here. I'm not a fan of Donald Trump. I think if you've ever listened to this show properly from day one, I think the first episode, I actually make it quite clear I'm not a fan of Donald Trump. I was chatting with Meredith Tax in her kitchen and I accidentally called him Donald Trump. And we had a bit of a chuckle about it. So, I've never been a fan. And so, you know, inevitably what I'm going to say will probably lead to a one-star comment from someone.

[00:18:00] But I think there's an interesting phenomenon going on right now where there's a lot of people who sort of voted for Trump who clearly obviously don't support the ideology of Trump. But they have voted for him for insert reason, whether it be finances, whether it be, I don't know, what else could it be? It's like a buffet. Yeah. They go and they pick. I like that thing and I'm just going to focus on that and ignore everything else.

[00:18:25] And the problem is, sadly, I said this in our previous Espresso Martini as well, it doesn't really work like that. It's not like, you know, when ICE comes to raid your house and you have, I don't know, some tenuous connection to being potentially seen as an illegal alien. But you voted for Trump and you tell them, well, I voted for Trump because of the economy. It's not like ICE are going to turn around and say, oh, he voted for Trump. It's fine. We'll let him go. They're going to take you away. They're going to treat you like they treat everybody else. Right.

[00:18:54] And I think it's the thing. So I believe that we are very good at holding whoever's president to account on this show. You know, certainly there have been times we've been critical of Biden. We've been critical of leftism. We did. There are many episodes where I rant about people on the left who drive me up the wall sometimes. I think Anthony Blinken turned out to be a horrible secretary of state. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And there's a lot of things. Jake Sullivan, horrible national security advisor. Yeah.

[00:19:22] And I think, you know, sadly, President Biden, somebody put it quite well. He brought a butter knife to a gunfight. And I think this is the thing. I think the problem is Democrats try and tend to do everything business as usual, be all sort of, what's the word? I want respectful about it, whatever. And unfortunately, I just don't think it kind of works anymore. I mean, like the hoo-ha about Hunter Biden's pardoning versus January the 6th.

[00:19:48] And to be fair, maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't feel there's been anywhere near the same number of articles condemning the January 6th pardons as there were of Hunter Biden. I could be wrong there, but it feels that way. You know, there's Trump was apparently quite pissed about. So there was, you know, talk in the lead up in the transition. There was talk about, you know, how would these pardons look? Okay.

[00:20:14] J.D. Vance even said something to the extent of, yeah, violent offenders. If you, you know, hit a cop in the neck with a stun gun, no, you shouldn't be pardoned. I think J.D. is right on that when he said that. Yeah. That was sort of like the shape that these pardons were going to take, you know, like commuting sentences for some people or, you know, like the really violent ones or something. Okay. They're going to stay in because you beat up cops and you can't do that.

[00:20:42] But apparently he, Trump was quite angry about Biden's last minute pardons for Anthony Fauci, General Milley, especially former chairman of the Joint Chiefs, who Trump said should be executed for speaking out against him. I can understand why I'm a pop. Right. So, I mean, and there's all kinds of debate about, you know, those preemptive pardons. Okay. Well, if you're not guilty of anything, why are you getting pardoned? Does it act like they're guilty?

[00:21:12] Does it, you know, there's, there's a whole debate about that. And, you know, honestly, I think there's very good points there. I don't know entirely how I feel about some of the unilateral pardons that Biden did, especially there at the end with Hunter and everything. Right. That's, that's all. Yes. Totally. It's very warnted debate. And I think the pardon power should be up to some sort of judicial review for any president or, you know, blackout periods from the election on to inauguration or something. I don't know. Who knows?

[00:21:40] I'm totally in favor of, of discussing that stuff. So it seems like Trump was quite angry about some of those last minute pardons from Mark Milley, especially, which I think is telling. Um, and apparently, you know, looked at these more limited pardons that they were going to do and just said, I think he was quoted by a staffer just said, yeah, fuck it. Just release everybody. Um, so I think it's, this is indicative of one of these early, they're very high on their own supply right now.

[00:22:10] Um, and this is indicative of one of those early feeling, you know, like we can do no wrong. We can't possibly be defeated. We can't take any losses. And that's when you make mistakes, right? That's when you think that you're going to march into Kiev in three days and put on your dress uniforms and have this, you know, happy parade. That's when you make decisions that, that lead to things like that. Um, and I think this is probably, this is probably, um, one of, one of them.

[00:22:35] I'd love to know how, should we say traditional publicans who I would consider quite sensible people feel about this. They were not, they were quite squeamish about it. I think, um, Senator Thune, the Republican. He was a Republican leader in the Senate. He sort of said, you know, I'm putting, I'm putting forward a bill that would call for the death penalty for people who, you know, kill a police officer, which I would, I would support that. Yeah, sure. Okay. I don't have any issue with that.

[00:23:01] Um, I think Thune has said some pretty reasonable things since he got, since he got, um, elected, uh, majority leader. Um, but you know, uh, what do you, what do you do? You've, you know, you've cut your own junk off to appease this man. I don't know what. Yeah. What is it?

[00:23:21] So I think anybody who has, you know, um, I don't know if I complete my point on it, but anybody who, for whatever reason has voted for Trump, you know, you have to accept that now you have to take ownership of what happens under his, um, under his rule. A bit like anybody who voted for Biden previously, you have to take some ownership for what the Democrats do. There are second and third order consequences to all of these decisions that we do not entirely anticipate when we make them.

[00:23:49] You know, you may have been voting for one reason or another, the economy or whatever, Gaza or however, but there are other consequences to those decisions that will ripple and will happen regardless of whether or not you intended them to happen or whether or not you care that they happen. Yeah. I know if that makes sense. No, it does. And, and so just as an outsider looking in, you know, this is a very uninspiring act.

[00:24:14] Um, I think it's a very extreme act and I think it really undermines the rule of law and I don't see how there is any positive to take from pardoning the January 6, um, uh, defendants, um, or suspects. I don't know what the best word for them is now these days. Right. Formally convicted. Um, you know, so yeah. Yeah.

[00:24:36] Well, so maybe this would be helpful to have like a programming note before we move on here or something, but, you know, we talked to you and I talked recently offline about, you know, how do we discuss the administration of the next few years and everything?

[00:24:49] Like how do we, and we both sort of agreed that, um, we're not interested in, and it would not be good for the show for us to spend airtime covering every perceived, um, outrage or act of, I don't know, every self-destructive act or however you want to frame it. Right. Right. We would, we would talk about nothing else and that's not what we're going to do. Um, we're going to be very selective about what we discuss and how we discuss it also, I think is important.

[00:25:18] And this was a kind of very specific and important moment that, you know, we were putting this episode together and we already had, we had something else. We did an Iranian spy ship that got sacrificed for this. Right. And, and, and you came and said, Hey, yeah, I think we should, I think we got to talk about the pardons and I, you could hear my sigh across the Atlantic. Um, and I said, okay, you can, you can handle the intro for that one. Yeah. I think he put a bracket. Sorry. I think we should cover.

[00:25:48] Yes. Um, so, you know, I am not eager to get on here and talk about that man, um, every single week and we're not going to, we're not going to, um, there's going to be parts where we, um, you know, I think we find some agreement. With some of the stuff he did. Um, I am so far, I don't know if the mic picked that up, me knocking on the desk.

[00:26:09] Um, I am so far kind of, um, calm and like, okay with how stuff with, with Ukraine looks. Yeah. Early fingers crossed on that one. But like, I'm okay. I think Ruby is a good pick. Yeah. I think as far as letting the CIA special mission center or JSOC get very aggressive against the cartels in Mexico, I think that could be a really good thing.

[00:26:37] For me, it would depend on a lot of the specifics of what is being done and how it's being done. Like I really got to see specifics about what they want to do and how they're going to do it. That will depend on how I feel about that. But stuff like that is stuff that I could, I could get behind. And when it happens, yeah, we'll talk about it. But I don't know when you, um, pardon people who, um, who, you know, drove sun guns into a cop's neck and beat them with flagpoles and all kinds of other pieces of broken furniture and wherever they could get their hands on.

[00:27:06] And they get let out just, you know, because the president thinks they're really cool guys and they're totally unrepentant about it. Yeah. We're going to talk about that. We're going to criticize it. Yeah, indeed. Well, let's see, I think, I think the way I put it when we're talking about all this as well, it's like, I think we will wait till something solid happens because I think what the Trump administration liked to do for various reasons is put out lots of different things. People get annoyed about lots of different things, but very little actually happens.

[00:27:33] Um, and I think for us, cause our remit is geopolitics, espionage, terrorism, uh, and intrigue, you know, we kind of, and I put all, all, all, all, all, all, all, all, all. I've got organized crime in there actually a little bit too, but anyway, um, you know, so we, we have kind of a, quite a broad and tight remit. And so this fits into, for me, terrorism because it's domestic terrorism. Uh, and then obviously president Trump is the most powerful man in the world at the moment. So that's geopolitics. So it's, um, you know, finish my martini. Yeah.

[00:28:03] So it's going to be hard to avoid him completely. Um, but we never avoided Biden. Um, and you know, um, and we didn't avoid Trump when he was in previously. Um, you know, some of our best episodes have actually been sort of tackling various sort of things that Trump were, did that were, you know, tackled indirectly. Um, and so, yeah, so I think we would just sort of do our best to Karen as well, but hopefully not in an irritating way.

[00:28:33] No, in the moments that we discuss him and we will have to, um, there's no way that we, there's no way that we, that we won't. In the moments that we discuss him, I hope you find you, dear listener, find that we are at least reasonable and true to ourselves and our beliefs. Yeah. Yeah, indeed. And fair. Yeah. I think, I think his order in the first term to kill Qasem Soleimani turned out to be a really, a really good productive thing.

[00:28:57] I don't think we would have a free Syria today, a greatly diminished, um, Hezbollah, a greatly diminished Iran for that matter, if not for the killing of Qasem Soleimani. Um, and that's something when it happened, I wasn't on this show at the time, but I was like, whoa, what are we, what are we, what are we doing? When, uh, okay, this is, this is like a lot, um, turned out to be a good call. And I'm, I have no qualms about, about saying he was, he was right to do that. Yeah.

[00:29:26] It was a very obviously bold act. Um, and there was a lot of risk involved. Um, and yeah, some. Same thing with the Bin Laden raid. Yeah. That went poorly. It would have been a disastrous, idiotic decision. Oh my God. Why did you do that? You know, it wasn't. Yeah. I think when we were at the spy museum together back in DC, I think my observation of Biden, he's too cautious. And I think to be a successful president, you do need a degree of, um, not putting caution to the wind,

[00:29:54] but I think you just need to make informed, bold choices. Um, and you can't shy away from it. And, you know, like again, the handling of the beginning of the Afghan withdrawal was shameful. Um, I think that, you know, the people, you know, the airlift itself in the end became a historic one. And, you know, so many people were airlifted out. Um, and it was as Frank's net put it on the show, much better organized than Vietnam was,

[00:30:21] but the initial fumble, um, and it's not like the, um, intelligence services couldn't see what was happening. Cause for quite a few weeks, it was just sort of build up as the Taliban were moving forward and forward and forward. Even I could predict something was going to happen sooner rather than later. And he had to get things in place. And I don't know why that wasn't the case. So, yeah. So, you know, um, we will see what happens, uh, over the next sort of four years now. Um, I have my reservations.

[00:30:50] I'm, you know, as I say, I'm not a fan of, of, um, Trump and the horse he rode in on. Um, but you never know. Uh, he might turn things around and shock us all. Black or is that horse what black or white or pale or, uh, what color horse is that Chris? At the moment covered in, in neo-Nazi memorabilia, that horse. Oh, okay. World War II is really interested in World War II artifacts and stuff from a historical standpoint. I know.

[00:31:19] And, and strange arms, arm gestures that apparently are not what we think they are. Let's not even. Yeah. So anyway, I think what we'll do, we're going to take a break and then we'll be back to chat about Syria. So catch you after the break.

[00:31:51] Right, buddy. Welcome back. Since we last did espresso martini, the regime of Bashar al-Assad was toppled in Syria. And now the country's at a sort of serious crossroads of many who fear that the country could become a failed state and descend into anarchy, or it could become a theocratic state ruled by a strict interpretation of Sharia law. But there's also another more kind of optimistic view.

[00:32:15] And Matt, you picked out an excellent piece from the New Lines magazine that was written by former CIA officer, Mark Polimeropoulos, about the opportunities in Syria. Can you talk to us about this? Yeah. Great article from Mark in New Lines magazine that examines the fallout from the very sudden unexpected collapse of the Assad regime and what it signals for Syria, the U.S. and the region.

[00:32:41] So for Syrians, this marks the end of over five decades of a brutal Assad family rule, a period defined by fear, repression and mass atrocities. Yet while these celebrations are warranted, Mark urges caution, highlighting the immense challenges that lie ahead as rebel groups led by HTS assume control. HTS, though historically tied to al-Qaeda, has shown signs of moderation under its leader Ahmed al-Shara.

[00:33:08] Schools and public services are functioning again, and Washington has even listed its bounty on al-Shara recently. However, concerns remain, especially for minorities and women, as the U.S. and its allies consider whether engagement with HTS can encourage responsible governance. Iran, long reliant on Syria as a logistical hub for arming Hezbollah, has suffered a major blow.

[00:33:31] Russia, another Assad ally, faces an uncertain future in Syria with signs of military withdrawal and possible back-channel dealings with the rebels. Meanwhile, Turkey has emerged as a primary regional power broker, capitalizing on a support for HTS and leveraging its position for influence in Damascus. Mark also identifies key risks. So rebel infighting, reminiscent of Libya and Iraq after those initial campaigns ended.

[00:33:59] After Gaddafi died, things got very dicey in Libya. Same after the initial fall of Saddam in Iraq, of course, famously as we know. The potential resurgence of ISIS in ungoverned spaces, which I discussed recently with Aaron Zelen on this podcast. And of course, the fate of Syria's chemical and biological weapons programs. He also underscores the importance of securing sensitive Syrian intelligence files, which could reveal not only the regime's crimes,

[00:34:28] but also pass counterintelligence activities against U.S. and European diplomats. On the broader geopolitical stage, Assad's downfall raises questions about Iran's nuclear ambitions. So, you know, they lost this beachhead that they had to resupply and do all sorts of logistical intelligence coordination with Hezbollah. That's gone. Does it make sense for them to sort of rush towards a nuclear weapon? Are they able to do that?

[00:34:55] I don't see Netanyahu and Trump allowing that to go down. And I think they would know that, that they couldn't do it without it being bombed. However, Israel's also weighing a strike against Iran's nuclear program right now. I don't know how seriously we should take that risk right now. But Mark says it's definitely a possibility. I agree.

[00:35:19] I think it's probably something that factions of the Israeli government are definitely saying now's our time to do this. And we have a friendly voice in Washington that probably wouldn't push back too much if we tried. Although, however, Trump is – I'm getting ahead of myself here into the actual discussion. Trump is very allergic to foreign wars. Yeah. Especially in the Middle East. Yeah. The article concludes with a warning.

[00:35:41] The U.S. must approach Syria with a mix of optimism and realism, balancing celebration of Assad's removal with proactive engagement to shape the country's future. History shows that missed opportunities in Syria have far-reaching consequences. And this is a moment Washington can't afford to waste, which I agree with completely. Chris, what do you think? Yeah. No. First of all, very interesting piece. So, like, you know, as you say, the fall of Assad was very bad for Iran and Russia.

[00:36:08] For Iran, Syria obviously being a vital proxy, which I'm sure you'll go into a bit more in a bit. And for Russia, Syria was an essential ally in the Middle East, and it held many Russian bases that are of strategic importance for the Kremlin to maintain influence both in the Middle East and the Mediterranean. And as Mark points out, obviously there are huge complications with regards to the current government. You know, its leader was linked to al-Qaeda and until recently had a $10 million bounty on his head.

[00:36:36] Mark also rightly warns that despite justified reservations, one has to accept the reality on the ground. And if the U.S., U.K. and European countries want to play a role in helping Syria find some stability, they will have to do business with Ahmed al-Shara. And that's geopolitics, really, isn't it? Sadly, we don't always get to deal with the people who we'd like to or who are completely pure. That's just the world that we live in, unfortunately.

[00:37:02] My fear is that infighting in Syria could lead it to becoming a failed state. Or worse, it could become a state that's harshly ruled akin to the Taliban. And, you know, as we've seen with the Taliban, women tend to be the victim of this. They tend to be the victim of horrific abuse and draconian measures. And like in Afghanistan at the moment, women are not even allowed to talk in public anymore. And I really hope that Syria doesn't sort of turn into that.

[00:37:32] But, you know, we will see. I think the international community needs to do everything it can to stop Syria ending up in that situation. Also, it would be in the West's interests, I would argue, to not allow Russia and Iran to get a strong foothold in Syria again like before. The big question is, will the new Trump administration actually get involved or take a step back? Because as you said, Trump is famously allergic to foreign intervention.

[00:37:57] Not without some reason, because Iraq and Afghanistan have not exactly been great success stories by any means, unfortunately. He's with the country on that. Yeah. To be honest. So, you know, I think America is tired of being kind of the international policeman. But at the same time, I don't think America can easily back away from that. So we have to, you know, you have to navigate that very carefully.

[00:38:24] One other thing as well is interesting to note that Turkey has been supporting HTS, which is obviously the ruling group that took over in Syria and has interest in that area. And I've long suspected that Turkey has been kind of keeping a lid on what's going on in Syria because they're concerned about, you know, the sheer government on their doorstep. Because, you know, Turkey is a Sunni state.

[00:38:49] And I think Turkey has ambitions to become, maybe become as important in the Sunni world as Saudi Arabia. Neo-Ottomism, they would call it. Yeah. Yeah. Neo-Ottomism. And I think that they are very keen to have an influence in Syria right now. So that's something else to keep an eye on as well.

[00:39:11] And also, apparently, according to the Jerusalem Center for Security and Foreign Affairs, they believe Turkey's president is looking to establish a Sunni axis against Israel. So that could be interesting to see as well what happens. I won't go too much into Moscow stuff because we'll come to that a bit later. But what other thoughts did you have? I mean, I'm particularly interested in kind of the Iran connection to Syria as well. Right.

[00:39:40] Well, that's – so there's – I've done two interviews on this podcast about Syria. One with Philip Smith right after the fall where we talked about the fall itself. Touched on the Iranian question a bit. The other – the second one I did was with Aaron Zelen where we talked about Syria in the context of ISIS or the Islamic State possibly having a resurgence in parts of the country. I definitely want to cover this more on the podcast. I have some ideas of what shape that will take.

[00:40:10] So there's going to be more coverage of this topic on here. Stay tuned for that. The Iranian question, I think, is – I don't know how they recover from this. I see – I see clear paths for the Russians to recover from this. And I'll hold fire on that for the next segment. It's tough, man.

[00:40:38] They're kind of – they're kind of screwed. Syria is their overland route to rearmed and resupply Hezbollah. That's gone to them. I don't know how they do that unless they fully just go underground and smuggle it in. That's going to be very difficult to do. I don't know how the Iranians assess this and adapt going forward.

[00:41:08] That's part of the conversation that I want to have on here going forward in future episodes. Mark in here quotes the Iranian foreign minister. He said that the axis of resistance had a tough year. And Mark says that's the understatement of the decade. I would say it's the understatement of the century as far as the Middle East is concerned.

[00:41:32] As far as HTS is concerned, of course, that's the confederation of militias that now governs Syria. They have – so far, so good, I think, is sort of the best way to describe them. They seem to have really moderated. And I recall from the conversations I had with Philip Smythe right after the regime fell, with sort of like actions speak louder than words. Like let's see what they actually do. Okay.

[00:42:02] And so far, I think they've stuck to that. I think there is real reasons to be encouraged by HTS's governing ability. They have major public services up and running, which is probably when you come into governing power right after a situation like this is probably the most important thing, right?

[00:42:26] If you can't run trash pickup, if you can't allow the electrical grid, the water system to function properly, you really – you can't do anything else, right? Because people just won't tolerate it. Yeah. I think they know that that's important to do. Because I remember when reading about ISIS in Iraq, one thing they did very quickly once they got hold of territory was to make sure all the basic services ran. Yep. Smart. Because that's how you get people on your side, you know. Yes. Yeah.

[00:42:53] That's really what most people kind of just want. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of people that can look past a whole lot of really bad, noxious stuff if they, you know, hit the light switch and the light comes on and they turn on their faucet and there's water running through it and it's like clear and they can like flush a toilet and it works, like that's – Yeah. That's what's really important to – I mean, pretty much anybody in that situation. Yes. Right? This is it. Yeah, it's the basics of humanity, isn't it? Right. Yeah.

[00:43:23] If you can handle that, that sort of opens the door to a lot else. As far as Turkey is concerned, and this somewhat relates back to the conversation I had about the Islamic State with Aaron Zelin. So, in the northeast and the east of Syria, right, there are a few prison camps that are holding a few thousand Islamic State fighters and their families that have just been sort

[00:43:52] of just sitting there since like 2017 when their like territorial collapse took place. Mm-hmm. Those are guarded by Kurdish – U.S.-backed Kurdish forces of which Turkey is sort of not – Thrilled with. They're not really cool with Kurdish forces having some sort of an autonomous region in Syria, right?

[00:44:16] Because that's a threat to Turkey with the Kurdish regions in Turkey, right? Two big questions of that for me is will Turkey intervene in those Kurdish parts of northeastern and eastern Syria more forcefully than they have? That could be disruptive to the security situation that right now is keeping the Islamic State's head down in those parts of the country.

[00:44:43] Like, for instance, there is a U.S.-backed Syrian forces that very quickly swept into Palmyra in the east of the country. That was a sort of Islamic State stronghold back in some of the earlier days of the Civil War. They're now holding that to prevent IS from coming back in that area.

[00:45:07] The other thing is, you know, will the Trump administration keep the remnant force that we have in Syria going forward? You know, he, of course, as we know, as we've said, is very allergic to kind of U.S. interventionism and to keeping large footprints deployed in various places of the world for long periods of time. Of course, unless it's Panama or Greenland or something, we'll see. Um, but as far as the Middle East is concerned, he's not really down for that.

[00:45:35] Um, will, will he pull U.S. forces out of Syria? I think if he did, that would be very bad. Um, I think there would be very, could be very real consequences for U.S. homeland security if that were to happen. Um, that's something, a point that Aaron made when I spoke to him and agree with that completely. Um, to that point, it feels like something that Secretary of State Marco Rubio would also not really be in favor of pulling U.S. forces out of Syria.

[00:46:05] And, you know, Aaron made this point when I spoke to him, the U.S. deployment in Syria is not remotely like it was in Iraq during the occupation. Like we're not, we're not occupying, we're not governing those parts of the country. Mm-hmm. These are, for the most part, special operations forces and their enablers who are there in small numbers doing the job that these units are specifically designed and trained to do. Yeah. Right? Completely different situation.

[00:46:31] And if anything, I think in the first term, when, in Trump's first term, when he made noises about, you know, why are U.S. troops in Syria? Why don't we pull out? Like, why are we still there? The situation was very different than it was today. Mm-hmm. Right? The Assad regime was in place. The Iranians and the Russians were there and were very powerful and stuff, right? That potential power vacuum did not exist in the first Trump term when he was making sort of these overtures of like, we should get out of Syria, right?

[00:47:00] The situation is very different now. Yeah. And I'm curious to see if that changes what the Trump administration does going forward. I hope it does. Mm-hmm. Well, there was also a fear of upsetting Russia. Right. Because Syria was so important to Russia and they have big bases there, which we'll go into at the moment. So, yeah. So, yeah. I know more. It's a whole different situation now. Yeah. There's a lot of opportunity there, I think. But, yeah. Well, I'll move us into the next piece, which complements this piece you just gave us.

[00:47:30] It was about the Russians. So, this is from the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and it sort of looks at events in Syria from a Russian perspective. So, the key points from the piece are, Moscow's involvement in Syria results in significant setbacks with many of its advantages, such as military influence and mediation credibility, diminished following Bashar al-Assad's downfall. However, Russia's defeat is viewed more as a loss for its Syrian allies than a strategic failure for Russia itself.

[00:48:00] Russia's primary focus remains on achieving victory in Ukraine, which is seen as essential for securing its great power status and long-term influence. Losses in Syria and other regions are considered secondary to its main objective. And Russia hopes success in Ukraine will allow it to regain influence in the Middle East in the future. Russia faces growing concerns over terrorism in Syria, particularly of radical groups now closer to its borders.

[00:48:27] Moscow is likely to pursue international counterterrorism cooperation or negotiate with anti-Russian factions to mitigate these threats. As part of its efforts to maintain its presence in Africa and the Mediterranean, Russia has increased its activity in Libya since 2024, using it as an alternative gateway to the continent. Though Libya's instability does pose risks for Moscow's position.

[00:48:54] Russia's direct involvement in Syria is expected to remain minimal whilst it seeks stability among local factions. Moscow may offer diplomatic mediation, potentially reviving the Astana process and positioning itself as a neutral stabilizing force with its future influence in the region contingent on a successful outcome on Ukraine. So Matt, I don't know what your thoughts were on the Russian side of all of this. Yeah, it's interesting that they brought up Libya in this argument.

[00:49:25] I think the Russians can't really afford to let Syria go without a replacement. And I think you can see some of that mindset made very clear in their initial actions during and immediately following Assad's fall. Right? So when I talked to Philip Smythe on here almost two hours about the fall of Assad, he made the

[00:49:49] point that he believed that, like said it openly, he believed that the Russians and Iran for that matter, made some sort of deal with HTS to essentially spare their forces during the collapse of the regime. And you can see evidence of that. Not too dissimilar from the Afghan evacuation in some ways. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:50:19] The Russians weren't attacked. They haven't been attacked. There are Russian warships in the Mediterranean that left Syria that are still, I believe, just sort of sailing in donuts in the Eastern Med. Right? Really not kind of sure what's going to happen there. The HTS is not allowing them back into Syrian ports. Those same ports, I believe, have since reopened. But, you know, Russian ships are not being allowed back in.

[00:50:49] There are clear signs from overhead imagery that Russian forces at their air base in Syria are being evacuated. Cargo flights are coming in, packing stuff up. They're leaving. Mm-hmm. But they're going to try to keep some influence in Syria. How and if they're able to do that, I'm not sure. I think it's greatly complicated by the fact that there probably isn't a single Syrian

[00:51:14] alive today who does not know someone who was killed in a Russian airstrike done at the behest of Bashar al-Assad and his regime. So that's just awkward from like a branding point for the Russians. Right? How do you deal with that? How do you deal with that? I'm not sure. There are, I guess, levers that the Russians could pull.

[00:51:38] You know, there's a lot of high-ranking regime officials who are now in Moscow who are wanted by the Syrians for all kinds of various atrocities and stuff. You could throw HDS a bone and, you know, toss them back. That would probably help things. It would, you know, it would betray their former Syrian allies. But, you know, we're talking about the Russians here. Yeah.

[00:52:04] Well, I would say I think Putin would definitely never give up Assad. No, not Assad. But he might give up less senior people. Not a household name. No, no. Because I think one thing, and this is not me endorsing Putin, but one thing he is quite good at is looking after those who are on his side. But obviously, at the same time, he's ruthlessly dispatches people who go against this. The realpolitik. Yeah. So that's a possibility.

[00:52:33] It wouldn't shock me if something like that happened. But they're going to need to try to maintain access to a Mediterranean port. I think that's the big thing, which brings us back to Libya. Libya, looking at the map, I think is the obvious place for them to try to make overtures in that location. There are a lot of the Russian private military companies that preceded the Wagner group. May they rest in peace. Not really.

[00:53:05] That have made significant gains in parts of Central Africa or the Sahel region. So Mali, Niger, Chad, right, sort of right below Libya. Could they try to extend that influence into Libya and perhaps snag access to a Libyan port for Russian naval warships to make calls at, potentially? Yeah. Yeah, indeed.

[00:53:29] Well, one of the things he brought up earlier was about the Syrians who know somebody who died at the hands of the Russians. So according to Air Wars, apparently the Russian Air Force flew 45,000 sorties between 2015 and 2019. Right. And it's believed that they're responsible for at least 24,000 civilian deaths in Syria. That's a lot of people.

[00:53:56] And the funny thing I always find is no one really talks about it. And weirdly, when talking to friends and relatives of Middle Eastern heritage who are not Syrian, a lot of the time they kind of brush over what Russia did in Syria. That's interesting. Focus more on America and America's support for Israel or America's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[00:54:25] So weirdly, I think Russia has a very good, doesn't have a branding problem outside of Syria in the Middle East, but it does have a branding problem in Syria. So there's a potential actually for alliedship in Syria, maybe, because they've experienced firsthand what it's like to deal with the Russians. You know, if I was, I think that branding issue, as we sort of called it, right,

[00:54:49] and that the idea that ordinary Syrians have about the Russians is, I don't know how they get around that, right, at least not for many years to come, right? But if I were sitting in the Kremlin right now, not to give them advice, if I were sitting in the Kremlin right now, if I was sitting in GRU headquarters, I would try to create divisions in the militias that now govern Syria. If I don't have a willing partner in Syria right now, okay, I'll make one.

[00:55:19] Yeah. Yeah. And everybody needs to be aware of that, but that's going to happen, isn't it? Which you're looking at, in that case, you're looking at a Libya post-Gaddafi kind of situation, which I think as far as the US and our European allies are concerned, that's something we should avoid completely. And I think it's something that, you know, Secretary Rubio would want to avoid as well. Yeah. No, indeed. Indeed. One other thing, so I'm just going to get us close to the end of this chat,

[00:55:48] but one other thing as well, I did wonder if a weakened Russia, because obviously it's weakened Russia that's enabled this overthrow of the Assad regime, I wonder if it also makes Iran more vulnerable and their ruling regime more vulnerable at the moment. Internally? I don't know that I can give you right now sitting here a satisfactory answer to that. I've wondered that myself. I'm not sure.

[00:56:18] I think that question is also linked into the nuclear program question. Yeah. But that's a question I want to ask again on this podcast and get answers to. Because, I mean, with regards to Iran, I don't think there's any, should we say, I don't think there's any obvious opposition who would try and take over and kick out the regime. No. And I don't recommend external forces do it either, but there's definitely, I don't know,

[00:56:48] I feel like there might be an opportunity for the ruling regime to go. To your point there, as was proven true in Syria, things that were once completely unthinkable and kind of silly to even propose as things that could happen suddenly become very real, often before we understand the events that made them real.

[00:57:16] That's what happened in Syria with Assad and his regime. No one was sort of predicting that that was a thing that could happen. It did very quickly. I think it would be arrogant to say that that couldn't happen in Iran. Will that happen? Is it likely to happen? I can't answer that. But for me to say that, like, no, there's no way. The regime could never fall. And as a result of what happened in Syria, I can't make that claim. Because I think there's a lot of institutional rot in Iran at the moment. I think there's a lot of signs of weakness.

[00:57:46] And then obviously with what's happened post-October the 7th, their whole proxies are all over the place and in a terrible state right now. So, yeah. Mark also, I don't know, maybe kind of a, I don't, but Mark also in his article from the last segment, he talks about Yahya Senwar and how, you know, his decision to launch October 7th kind of started all this. And I was, when I was reading the article prepping for this,

[00:58:16] I sort of, I'm sure there's some listeners who will get this, but I will ever, forever think of Yahya Senwar as like the Leroy Jenkins of the Middle East. I've always been on belief that Iran had a hand in what happened with regards to October the 7th through Hamas. So somewhere, somebody thought that October the 7th was a good idea, but it's completely backfired on them.

[00:58:45] And, yeah, it's, you know, so if we want to talk about intelligence failures, we need to throw it back at Iran and Hamas at the moment. Maybe I should order a Ouija board and ask Yahya Senwar on the podcast how he feels about what has happened. Maybe he might throw a stick at you. He might, he might. Oh, man. Yeah. Well, one final thing, back onto Mark's piece for a moment.

[00:59:13] One thing that did come out as well was, he was talking about how he really enjoyed his posting in Syria and how many CIA officers did. David McCloskey did as well, famously, yeah. And how lovely the Syrian people are. And, you know, and how they've had to endure an awful lot of horrors. And, you know, with the falling on the side, one of the things that's come across is just the horrors of the regime. You know, those terrible prisons, those torture devices and things like that.

[00:59:41] And I think he's always a positive when a brutal dictator is removed. And I just hope for the sake of the people of Syria, because all this is a bit academic for us. I just hope to God that there's some sort of justice for them and that they can find a way to just live their lives without having to live in fear.

[01:00:05] Because, you know, that ultimately, I think that's what I would wish for everybody really is can we all just live in a place where we're not all living in fear of either the ruling party or whatever? It doesn't it shouldn't be a big ask. But unfortunately, it is. And I think sometimes we take that for granted over here. You know, I think there's a lot of people in the just throwing it back to us for a Western audience.

[01:00:29] I think there's a lot of people who wake up in the UK and the US who assume everything is business as normal. But you have to always be that way. Yeah, yeah. And there's no guarantee it will be. There are a lot of forces changing. I mean, there's a lot of things going on in the world with regards to the rise of the political right at the moment. You could see Canada could get a right wing government. I don't feel the Canadian government. The next one would be they have a conservative government necessarily be a far right right wing government.

[01:00:58] But there are concerns. Germany with the AFD far right. You know, that could happen. You know, obviously there are forces at work in the UK now who would love to see Labour defeated and may or may not use the conservatives as a way to bring in more far right ideology or into the mainstream.

[01:01:21] Certainly the conservative part at the moment is sort of flirting with certain things and ideas that make them even more right wing. And it just feels like a lot of political freedoms that are taken for granted in 10 or 15 years time may not exist anymore. You may not get the same level of free speech that you have, etc. And I just find it.

[01:01:44] Yeah, we just when looking at things like Syria, when I looked at what was going on in Ukraine years ago, I remember when the the pro Europeans, the Euro maiden protests were happening. It was just just just happened before Brexit. But the Brexit debates were happening and so many people were so blasé about Europe and things. And now from the UK's point of view, we're out of Europe. And for many people, they feel the negative consequences of that now. So, yeah.

[01:02:14] So just I guess the moral of the story is never take things for granted. And, you know, you need to participate in in the political change that you want. Otherwise, you know, think of other people will will speak for you. And that's always a bad thing. Yeah. Well, let's take a break. And we're back with our final story.

[01:02:50] So welcome back, everybody. So, yeah, Matt, you picked out a really good piece from ABC News about the CIA's relationship with Ukraine. Ukraine's intelligence services. Do you want to talk to us about that? Yes, this is from Patrick Rievel. And it goes through the details, the evolution of a remarkable alliance between the CIA and Ukraine's intelligence services, specifically their military intelligence, the GUR, I would call it.

[01:03:16] So this partnership, born out of necessity following Russia's annexation of Crimea in 2014, transformed Russia's intelligence from a Cold War relic to one of CIA's most trusted collaborators. So the story begins in the article with Lieutenant General Valery Kondrachuk's bold move in 2015, bringing top secret military documents to Washington to gain the CIA's trust.

[01:03:40] And over the years, this relationship deepened with the CIA helping to rebuild Ukrainian intelligence through funding, training and establishing forward operating bases along the Russian border. Joint operations and intelligence sharing gave the U.S. And paralleled insight into Russian decision making and military capabilities, all while equipping Ukraine with the tools to resist Moscow's aggression. The partnership proved critical during Russia's full scale invasion in 2022, of course.

[01:04:10] CIA trained Ukrainian special forces disrupted Russian advances with covert operations and targeting intelligence. The rapid transformation of Ukraine's intelligence also highlighted its strategic value likened by U.S. officials to that of MI6, just in terms of like the valuability of that partnership. However, the collaboration wasn't without tension.

[01:04:32] Early on during the Obama administration, especially U.S. officials were cautious, concerned about provoking Russia and wary of Russian penetration within Ukraine services. Kondrachuk circumvented red lines at times, pushing for sabotage operations in Crimea, which strained U.S.-Ukrainian relations under the Obama administration. Rehabil's article also underscores how this partnership not only fortified Ukraine's ability to resist Russia, but also saved the U.S.

[01:05:01] significant resources while enhancing its understanding of a key adversary. Despite Russian propaganda framing this alliance as a provocation, Ukrainian officials see it as the backbone of their fight for sovereignty and independence. Chris, what do you think? Well, yeah, very good piece. And I'll say off the bat, I think, you know, this relationship is exactly what the CIA and Britain's MI6 are meant to be doing, building positive and reciprocal relationships of allied services.

[01:05:30] And as the Ukrainians interviewed in the piece have said, the CIA's help was instrumental in Ukraine's defense against Russia's invasion in 2022. And I'm sure that those who are critical of Ukraine will no doubt point to the CIA's involvement as a negative and a proof of something neferous.

[01:05:50] But one very interesting tidbit from this piece concerns those early days, the Ukrainians, you know, they had the ability to give the CIA information on Russia that the CIA had never had. As one intelligence official put it, their access was so significant. He was the best friend of the Russians for many, many years, and they knew things that we just frankly had no idea of. So I think the Americans, you know, the US have got a lot out of this.

[01:06:18] And it's interesting to see that, you know, the relationship between the Ukrainians and the CIA is considered as highly as their relationship with MI6, which is, you know, I think that's quite a big thing, you know, because the British-American partnership has been a massive thing since the end of the Second World War. So that's very interesting that and just proves, you know, how important that the CIA is taking this. And, you know, certainly Washington has been taking this.

[01:06:49] Obviously, that could change. Hopefully not. And I see the Ukrainians obviously want to see this relationship as a positive thing and something to be celebrated. And I can only assume that this information effort that we're talking about right now, kind of which complements some New York Times reporting that occurred last year, has been put forward in the hopes to remind the incoming Trump administration of that partnership.

[01:07:12] And I believe that, you know, obviously they hope that President Trump will continue the US government's support of Ukraine and Ukrainian intelligence services. Personally, I really hope for Ukraine's sake that President Trump does continue to help Ukraine. I was very pleased to see in his reported conversation with Putin just yesterday that he told Putin to, quote unquote, end this ridiculous war or face new sanctions.

[01:07:40] And I really hope that Trump does not screw over Ukraine and give Russia a good deal, because I think the Ukrainians are the ones who need a good deal. So, yeah, I mean, those are my main thoughts on that. Is there anything else that you want to add? I would, you know, second a lot of what you said, especially as far as the Trump administration is concerned. I'll circle back to that in a second. It was just it was just striking to me that at the beginning of the invasion.

[01:08:08] Outside of the CIA, at least, or outside of the intelligence community, I think Ukraine, Ukrainian intelligence was believed to have been so penetrated, so ineffective. Yeah. That their officers would essentially guide Russian airborne troops into Kiev. You know, in the beginning of this article, it talks about the head of the Ukrainian SBU went in right after the Maidan protests.

[01:08:34] You know, when the sort of first, we'll say anti-Russian Ukrainian government came to power. Right. Right. And he sort of found the place empty that all the high ranking, all his, you know, high ranking predecessors and stuff fled to Crimea or to Russia.

[01:08:50] There were FSB officers working directly within their cybersecurity department, Ukrainian intelligence's cybersecurity department that took a database and lists of all kinds of Russian officers. I'm sorry, all kinds of Ukrainian officers just totally just neutered this, this agency. And his first phone call in his empty office was to the U.S. and British embassies and said, like, please help.

[01:09:16] Um, and, you know, to our, we, we answered the call and, um, you know, made, saw that they wanted to, saw that they wanted to earn it, you know? Um, and I, um, I don't know if there's, if there is any country post, any Western country post-World War II that has earned its right to be who it is, has earned its right to be left the fuck alone.

[01:09:44] It is these people. Um, and it's, I don't know, it's just, it's just, it's inspiring. I think a lot of, um, I think Ukrainians today know and respect the key tenants of Western democracy better than most citizens of Western democracies right now. Yep. Um, and I so hope they're not punished for it in the months and years ahead.

[01:10:07] As we said at the top of the show, um, nothing has happened that yet that has me like kind of really sick about this stuff as I was at least right after the election. Um, you know, I heard also Trump say yesterday and to Putin that, you know, yeah, he said, end the stupid war. You'll get hit with a whole bunch of sanctions. All right. Yeah. I hope, I hope you mean it.

[01:10:35] And I hope ending that war does not mean to Trump does not mean that Ukrainians just bend over and become Russia light. Yeah. Again. Yeah. Um, these people have, these people have, have earned it. I go back to they have earned their right to be left the fuck alone and to be who they want to be and have self-determination. Um, and I, I, I really hope they get it. Yeah. Yeah, I do too.

[01:11:02] Well, I think on that note, we will wrap up. Um, so thank you very much everybody for listening and for joining us on our first show of 2025. I apologize for being a bit rusty. Um, we're slowly getting back as a swing of things. Um, so we're going to move on to patron for our final edition of extra shot on our final extra shot. We'll be looking at the outgoing CIA director, William Burns and his legacy. We're going to be looking at new information on the Chinese balloon saga.

[01:11:30] Then we're going to be looking at China's sixth generation fighter jet. There's some new images of that. And then we're going to be looking at a CIA officer's love affair of watches. So if you're fans of watches of espionage, we will be chatting a little bit about that. So thank you everybody for listening, Matt. Thank you for your time on the show today. Thank you, Chris. And we will, um, well, we'll either catch you next week or we'll catch you on extra shot. Well, we'll be back. We'll be back a lot more next month. I don't know if you wanted to sort of reiterate the, the, the plans.

[01:11:59] So our plans are going forward. We're going to be, um, weekly on espresso martini. And that'll be out on Saturdays. Yeah. Yeah. The plan is going forward to be Saturdays for now. And obviously if that changes, we will let you know. Um, we also will be doing, you know, interviews still, um, that's not going away. And you know, those, I, we're still figuring out exactly where to space those interviews. We'll probably put them out like midweek or something. Yeah. Like a Wednesday. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:12:26] And obviously still like when something significant happens, um, we sometimes just manage to get an expert on record it and post it out that day because obviously there's a fear that whatever we talk about will become irrelevant by the time it's posted. So it's always good to get those out. So, um, so yeah, this, uh, 2025 bold new chapter for secrets and spies, you know, going weekly. Um, and you know, so I hope you enjoy what we do and, um, you know, please keep in touch with us on our email.

[01:12:55] It's just secrets and spies podcast at gmail.com. Um, and I was just thinking about, I haven't talked to you about this yet, but I was thinking maybe, um, towards the end of the month, uh, why don't we get some listener questions in? Um, I, I love listener questions. So it's listener questions. So, so, and what we'll do, um, so on the, the last episode of February, we will go through those questions and they can be anything. Um, you know, it could be a topic. It could be our opinion on something. I don't know.

[01:13:24] It could be about our favorite, um, you know, brand of, uh, latte or something or martini or whatever. Yeah. For real, for real. I'm all about listener questions and it doesn't have to be some like formal thing. Like we're soliciting listener questions right now. No, if you got a question, like send it to us, email us, um, hit us up on, uh, we're both pretty active on blue sky now. Um, I'm still on X a little bit, not as much as I was, but I, if you message me there, I'll probably see it.

[01:13:54] Um, I may live to regret those words, but, um, uh, but blue sky were there, uh, primarily. Um, so you can message the show directly or either one of us, our personal accounts and just say like, Hey, could you talk about this on the show? Uh, please. Yeah. Please. Always open to that. So yeah, please do do that. Um, I'll put our email in the show notes. Obviously we're on Patreon as well. You can message us on Patreon as well. I think it all is in the show notes. Yeah. Yeah. So I'll put it in the show notes there, but it'd be good to get something in, um, towards

[01:14:24] the end of February. So, you know, thank you very much for your support over last year. Um, and thank you in advance for your support for this year. And, uh, we hope you enjoy, uh, we hope you continue to enjoy the show as is. And we will catch you on the next episode next week. So take care and have a good weekend. Bye. Bye.

[01:14:58] Thanks for listening. This is secrets and spies.