S9 Ep2: Extra Shot Preview: The weaponisation of disgust, a peek inside a US Far-Right militia and a globally integrated ISIS

[00:00:03] Hello, everybody. It's Chris here. I hope you're well. Today we are sharing an episode of Extra Shot which actually came out last week.

[00:00:12] So this is a taste of the Patreon only show that follows every episode of espresso martini.

[00:00:19] We're showing this today for two reasons. Number one, Mac Naira. She quite busy at the moment.

[00:00:24] Going through interviews for season nine. So we actually are recording three interviews over the next few days

[00:00:30] that will be part of the beginning of season nine. So we're a little bit behind schedule in some ways

[00:00:35] and don't have anything available for this week, just due to availability of guests and people's schedules.

[00:00:41] But season nine is underway as I mentioned before. We are slowly moving our productions with a video site, which you at the moment can see on Patreon,

[00:00:51] but should be available. We're going to start releasing our videos out on YouTube.

[00:00:55] So next week, Lassapart of Next Week, because the YouTube channel is a major before. It's been a little bit neglected.

[00:01:00] And I apologize about that. And we're just sort of catching up the old projects before we start releasing the current ones

[00:01:07] because I don't want the YouTube channels become a mess. So we're just sorting out the YouTube channel, getting it ready.

[00:01:14] And then you'll be able to see our video content. And I've just today come off recording our first ever studio shoots.

[00:01:22] And I was joined by Julian Fisher and we talked about his book Thinking Like A Spy.

[00:01:28] We had a really great chat, so that will be out in a few weeks time. So we've got some really interesting guests coming up.

[00:01:34] I don't like to say in advance who they are just in case things change last minute because sometimes they do.

[00:01:39] But yeah, Matt and I work on a very exciting new season.

[00:01:44] And we're looking forward to sharing all the new interviews with you.

[00:01:48] And last bit as well. So we've had some wonderful, wonderful feedback on the survey.

[00:01:53] I'm going to be closing the survey at the end of Monday, the 24th of September.

[00:02:00] So you've still got the weekend to leave results if you wish to.

[00:02:05] We've had an awful lot of feedback that's being incredibly useful.

[00:02:08] And a lot of it has been very complimentary, which is always very nice.

[00:02:11] And we had some very constructive kind of points as well that were taken on board.

[00:02:14] And our plan is just to barrel those points in mind as we go on with season 9 and beyond.

[00:02:21] And hopefully make the podcast even better than it is currently.

[00:02:25] Which is always our goal. We always want every episode to be better than the previous one.

[00:02:28] And some sort of, you know, we're always trying to find ways to improve things.

[00:02:32] So yeah, we really, really appreciate your feedback. It was really useful.

[00:02:36] How can we will be making some incremental changes over time?

[00:02:40] So without further ado, this is last week's extra shots.

[00:02:44] And just as a reminder, extra shot is our special show for patron subscribers that goes out immediately after an espresso martini.

[00:02:52] It's a little bit looser, so Matt and I talk a little bit at the beginning about how we're feeling it's et cetera and talk a little bit about some of us and things.

[00:02:59] So it's a looser show, a little bit more personal, but we do go through relevant stories.

[00:03:05] And we hope you enjoy it.

[00:03:06] And if you wish to become a patron subscriber, just go to patron.com for slash secrets and spies.

[00:03:14] And you'll be able to directly support the podcast through there.

[00:03:17] So I hope you enjoyed this episode. Have a wonderful weekend and we'll catch you next week. Take care.

[00:04:27] Hello everybody. Welcome to extra shot. If you're listening to this, you're directly supporting our show.

[00:04:33] So thank you very much for that. Matt, I think we had pretty good episodes. Nice returning.

[00:04:38] It was nice to come back. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. How was he all summer break?

[00:04:43] Can you end? Was it all right? It was fine.

[00:04:46] Wasn't too much of a break. I mean, I, you know, still had a lot of work to do with the various other projects I've had unfinished for quite a few years to my great shame.

[00:04:59] So, you know, some of that stuff working here and there still. But it was, it was nice.

[00:05:04] You know, not I didn't really have like a vacation so much.

[00:05:10] I don't know. And so I'm down in Florida for the week for listeners. I don't know if we're going to show any of the video here, but it looks very tropical behind me.

[00:05:23] But I'm going to try this week. I think I got a couple. I got a couple things I need to get done. This was on the schedule.

[00:05:30] Then I got another thing I got a handle and then I think the rest of the time I'm here at my strategist.

[00:05:36] Chill by the pool and read a bit. Also stuff for this show, but still reading it by a pool, which is, you know, a little bit better than then yeah, then usual from the year.

[00:05:49] Cool. It's important to get that down time.

[00:05:51] Yeah. Well, yeah. My summer definitely wasn't the break. It was quite busy actually.

[00:05:55] I'd usually August is a pretty much a dead month and I try and purposely engineer everything. So, very little happens over August.

[00:06:04] So I can kind of enjoy it almost a bit like when I was at school and I've been done that for three years now and I've been really benefiting from it.

[00:06:10] So this year, I haven't had that and I can feel it.

[00:06:14] Yeah. So I'm going to take a mini break probably late September. But no, honestly, my summer was busy in a positive way.

[00:06:21] I had this amazing Buddhist retreat. There went to it was fantastic and I was on this sort of, basically it was at this sort of boarding school that was closed for the summer and the Buddhist organization had rented it.

[00:06:34] So we became this little community in the middle of Hampshire.

[00:06:39] And honestly, it was lovely because you could just walk around the estate every night.

[00:06:44] You know, it was no feel, you know, it's not like living in a city where sometimes you've got to be a little bit, not on edge.

[00:06:50] But you just, is sensible to have to be alert around you, especially in London petty crimes.

[00:06:57] Got up quite dramatically people who are whipping your phone off you or some people have had luxury watches taken.

[00:07:02] Not that I've got a luxury watch to take but you know, you know, you've got to be a bit, have your wits about you a little bit and the last thing I want is my phone stall and but it totally the opposite of that in this estate in the middle of nowhere.

[00:07:14] And it was just so nice. So it kind of was a half, it felt like half a holiday because of the zenness of it and then obviously still work.

[00:07:23] But it was just so nice being in the middle of nowhere for a few days and it was for six days and I might be doing it again next year.

[00:07:29] So it's might become an annual thing for me which would be great.

[00:07:32] And then I've been working on this project about dyslexia for a client of mine and I've already mentioned it before but I actually have dyslexia.

[00:07:40] So it's interesting listening to interviews of people of different age groups about their experiences of it and some things I can relate to and others like, okay.

[00:07:49] You know so it's been a bit of an introspective summer a little bit because we were like, oh my goodness, you know, so that was because of that.

[00:07:55] And I'm not alone in thinking that so it was quite interesting. So yeah, so it's been good but it's nice to be back. I mean one of the things that I was feeling overall gust was quite I've lost track now what has happened, but it was quite a lot going on in all this.

[00:08:11] I know that's a good thing.

[00:08:13] It's like we can do like three of full podcast looking at at the list of stuff we have for for this extra shot and espresso martini that we just recorded before this I was looking at like, okay, do we talk about.

[00:08:25] Do I want to focus on stuff that that happened when we were gone or stuff this more happening like right now and I feel like it's hard to strike that.

[00:08:32] Because there's definitely some stuff that happened that like we really should touch on but then there is like, like it still hasn't slowed down you know, so it's it's hard to catch up. I know it a lot of it.

[00:08:42] Yes, crazy, crazy.

[00:08:45] No, exactly exactly. Well let's dive into some of this craziness. So we look at stochastic terrorism using disgust of your violence and we're going to peek inside the AP3 militia group in the US which is a very interesting piece.

[00:09:01] And then we're going to sort of finish up just pondering on this sort of globerally, globally integrated ISIS that's sort of returning or never went depending on how you look at things.

[00:09:13] Okay, so we'll kick off with stochastic terrorism using disgust to incite violence. So this is actually a piece from 2022 but I just thought it was an interesting thing to bring back up again because I feel it still is relevant today.

[00:09:28] Sadly, it was back then. So this article was by Breon Nelson from the scientific American and it's an opinion piece and so just to summarize, so the article mentions about week before the midterm elections in 2022 you may remember a man broke into Nancy Pelosi's home and attacked her husband and this individual had been influenced by conspiracy theories like Q&A on that falsely claimed that democratic leaders are pedophiles.

[00:09:59] And this reflects a broader trend of rising threats and violence fueled by right wing media figures including former president Donald Trump's support for such conspiracy theories including those targeting the LGBTQ plus community with baseless accusations of grooming.

[00:10:17] So stochastic terrorism is where hate speech increases the chances of unpredictable violent attacks and it plays a key role in these acts.

[00:10:28] The propagandists exploit emotions like disgust to humanize marginalized groups as seen throughout history with Jewish black and LGBTQ plus people.

[00:10:41] The COVID-19 pandemic also has fueled racism xenophobia and homophobia worsening the spread of conspiracy theories and inciting violence.

[00:10:51] Media figures like Tucker Carlson have amplified these harmful ideas linking drag queens and the LGBTQ plus advocates to pedophilia further escalating threats to those individuals.

[00:11:04] And transgender individuals have become frequent targets for violence before right groups using fear and disgust to incite harm against minorities and educators and public officials.

[00:11:17] And this tactic of stirring disgust is used in political campaigns to manipulate voters by demoralizing marginalized communities.

[00:11:25] Efforts to counteract this cycle include deraticalization programs, community interventions and promoting empathy and trust legal measures against heat speech and violence could help reduce the spread of extremism.

[00:11:38] Reducing engagement with media platforms that thrive on stoking fear and disgust is essential in breaking the cycle of vilification and restoring decency and shared humanity.

[00:11:49] You can see why we brought this up because what we've been talking about this is the thread that kind of goes through I think was wrong with social media today and YouTube etc.

[00:12:04] And that kind of hateful dehumanizing content is the thing that is just the lifeblood of the internet at the moment because again it's sensationalist and it drives people in and some people take it seriously some people find it amusing and share it around.

[00:12:22] But it's a people may watch it ironically who knows but it's very serious stuff and really shouldn't be taken as a joke and you know it's led to real lot violence as we've seen.

[00:12:34] And so yeah, so that's why brought this up so Matt I don't have you had any thoughts on this piece.

[00:12:41] Yeah, I was really glad that you brought this that you brought this up.

[00:12:45] I think Britain would be a good guest on the show for you.

[00:12:48] Yeah, not to be your assignment editor or anything here.

[00:12:54] So right.

[00:12:55] You know it's it's it's been a persistent and in some ways a growing problem certainly born of you know social media like we talked about in reference to the failed ISIS attack on the teleswip concert.

[00:13:13] Yeah, in the end of how social media is these algorithms are sort of just constructed to to reward extremism and to sort of push like our worst demons out on people who are not necessarily looking for it right like it it shows to them whether they're necessarily pre-exposed to it or not right.

[00:13:38] And in some cases you know certain people are and they fall to on the rabbit hole and I think.

[00:13:44] Yeah, there's a really good example of this the cast of terrorism happening right now so are the last you know weaker so there's been this story that sort of bubbled up in right wing media spaces about.

[00:14:01] The Haitian migrants in this town in springfield.

[00:14:05] Yeah, has this gotten over there very much?

[00:14:08] Yes, yeah, we so with the it was a sound bite from the debate between yeah prison control and camera.

[00:14:15] Fossilian Harris yeah yeah it was but it was um it was uh so there's this I don't quite know it's origin and to be honest I don't really care.

[00:14:24] But it bubbled up in right wing media spheres you know pushed by people like Elon Musk and Ted Cruz and and J.D. Vance that this unsubstantiated story that Haitian migrants in this town springfield Ohio were I guess going into people's yards and stealing their dogs and cats or you know pulling like the geese out of you know lakes and ponds and stuff in the area and like eating them.

[00:14:49] And of course using this to you know, smear Democrats for the you know migrant crisis that we have here in the US.

[00:15:00] It's been totally unsubstantiated so this came up at the debate Trump brought it up and said that you know he'd solid on TV and he was fact check that makes it true.

[00:15:11] Yeah, he was yeah, I told him.

[00:15:15] What did he say on TV?

[00:15:17] And he was he was fact check by the by the moderators who said that they if that ABC news reached out to the city managers for in fuel Ohio and said that there's no there's there's no real truth is it all.

[00:15:30] There is an instance of a woman in springfield Ohio who who ate a cat.

[00:15:38] You know, which is really kind of gross and disgusting of course, but she was a US citizen every went in her house was a US citizen who that was known to law enforcement in the area she had mental health and issues with drugs and stuff.

[00:15:54] So this is a mental health drug issue of a woman who is fairly mentally ill and did something like this right not at not Haitian migrants you know pulling.

[00:16:05] People's pets out of the yards and eating them but this got traction yeah people were you know JD van's was you know called out on everything and basically said yeah okay keep doing the means anyway keep doing like the means anyway and it's totally kind of post.

[00:16:20] Yeah, yeah truth.

[00:16:23] World that they live in now and I know if you saw this just as we were sitting down to record I got a newsletter.

[00:16:31] The city hall in springfield was evacuated someone emailed in bomb threats to it this morning.

[00:16:37] Oh, good great.

[00:16:37] So this is exactly what we're talking about you know in as far as like the whole I mean yes that is a that someone would react that way to it is certainly born of the.

[00:16:51] Discussed that these false stories want to spread among peoples and it's something is deeply personal to me I don't know how many listeners know I'm part of the LGBTQ community and of course I'm somewhat in a way.

[00:17:07] I think I'm very lucky because I'm not trans I don't look or sound like you know Randy rainbow and if you just saw me out there you would even listen to me here every episode.

[00:17:22] You know cutting out the parts where I've mentioned this you probably wouldn't ever know you know but there have been.

[00:17:31] And since this were I've been you know out in public and are really hesitant to do things were act in a certain way that I mean frankly you would you Chris would never think twice about you know because I don't know who's within.

[00:17:50] Who's within view or whatever and you know has been fed this diet of bullshit that you know gay people are you know groomers and pedophiles and sexualizing children and what see me.

[00:18:02] Do something that would be very clear of what my sexuality is now and then be it's something that you know people who aren't.

[00:18:13] On the receiving end of this stuff.

[00:18:15] We'll never have to deal with so it is it is it is very real and it is something that I will tell listeners absolutely impacts someone in your everyday life even if you're not entirely sure about it or they have brought up to you.

[00:18:31] I promise you you know someone who this touches yeah yeah well I'm sorry it does affect you in that way we you know.

[00:18:38] You seem just like to think that the world has moved on got better over certain issues and sadly then you know we go through what we go through and realize that actually this world is not much better than when you thought it was supposed to be improved upon.

[00:18:52] And you know what you're saying there like you know basically this simple act to me able to hold your partners hand in public could cost you your life and that's not that's terrible.

[00:19:03] Yeah and I'm assuming that I think that people don't have to face that reality ever it's not something you would ever really think of you why would you yeah consider that that's yeah it's not a reality that you.

[00:19:16] I mean thankfully ever have to deal with but this is the shit that causes it for people like me and people who are a lot less lucky than me who don't necessarily have the ability to will say like.

[00:19:32] I mean I'm not a lot of people who can't.

[00:19:36] Yeah yeah you know you remind all this just takes me back to a photograph I took in 2004 so I'm studying photography I was you know you do is random photo projects and one of them was to sort of do street photography and I was in the waterloo area.

[00:19:53] And there's a tree that I still see to this day and when I photographed it had flowers all around it and basically there had been a hate crime that had led to murder and it was a hate crime directed at a gay man and he was murdered on that spot and that tree still stands today.

[00:20:14] I could still picture it when I walked past it and I've got the photograph in my sort of archives all that.

[00:20:22] And yeah it's just a horrible reality that really we should have moved on from by now but we haven't and that makes me very sad.

[00:20:30] I think there's a lot of the people who pushed this stuff out.

[00:20:36] One I think it's it's cowardly to just hide behind the power of suggestion.

[00:20:41] It's not right just outright say yeah go ahead and do this stuff but to sort of keep that plausible deniability even as sort of transparent as it is to the rest of us under the law there is still plausible deniability there and are able to sort of hide behind

[00:20:58] rights and privileges and protections that they would just as easily take away from people like me.

[00:21:07] And there's an air of they actually get a joke or it's a meme you know or it's like this sort of zero sun the ends justify the means it's all just politics and stuff.

[00:21:20] And it's and it's not there are real people that get affected by this stuff every day.

[00:21:27] I mean I've certainly felt it in my own personal life multiple times and then you know it's not just that it's with you know migrants and stuff too like you've had this like I just mentioned this issue in Springfield Ohio just this morning was a bomb threat.

[00:21:41] I'm sent into city hall because of these you know just bullshit right wing conspiracy theories.

[00:21:49] Yeah yeah indeed indeed well I've always been interesting that sort of multi-fast it's psychology of hate because I've always liked to believe that once you know how something works your ones that kind of closer to being able to provide a solution to it but I see that being very optimistic I don't really know what the solution is to dealing with this.

[00:22:11] I don't know what it is either. No no but the psychological aspect of it obviously an emotional response can bypass your kind of rational mind and so discussed is a pretty universal kind of universal right word is you know discussed is something that you know it's very basic that's probably better words universal is a basic thing.

[00:22:32] You know it can be anything really and and and seeing how it can be weaponized to dehumanize someone is is quite shocking actually that's what is ask where things are important and that's why I want to sort of bring it up.

[00:22:47] So yeah so there's not really much else I think I can add to this but I do have an else you want to add to this but thank you for sharing.

[00:22:54] Yeah, I think that's I think we got it covered for now yeah yeah well let's get out our night vision scopes and go into this militia because what a what a ask all that was.

[00:23:09] Yeah, this is certainly a longer read it's a great deep dive that pro public did into the American Patriots 3% militia one question.

[00:23:20] Did you manage to get the is all that all the cool trying to listen to it like it ever get it's a bloody work.

[00:23:25] I didn't I didn't try that I didn't try that I didn't try to get it.

[00:23:38] I wasn't sure if I would have why I'm going to plan it ended up did but I copy and paste the whole article into my notes and answer to how to there so I was just reading it through so any of the pictures are formatting and stuff when I read it yesterday I missed it.

[00:23:51] But here's it's a it's a long article I will break it down for listeners is best I can so bear with me there's there's quite a bit here.

[00:24:00] So the American Patriots 3% or AP 3 militia projects a dual image publicly it engages in community service like food drives privately members practice power military tactics including storming buildings with semi automatic rifles and discussing political violence as an imminent necessity.

[00:24:19] The January 6 capital riot was a critical moment for AP 3 serving as both an inspiration for new recruits and a cause for internal dissension.

[00:24:29] While some viewed the event as a failure that didn't go far enough it led others to advocate for more extreme action fearing that political engagement alone could no longer resolve national issues.

[00:24:40] AP 3 has managed to grow after January 6 despite increase media and law enforcement scrutiny the group attracts members from diverse backgrounds including law enforcement veterans and civilians.

[00:24:52] A to buy recruitment strategies that utilize veterans affairs facilities and social media despite crackdowns from platforms like Facebook the group faces significant internal turmoil which some members growing alarmed by the groups increasing radicalization.

[00:25:06] The militia's national commander Scott said in experience personal and leadership challenges even contemplating quitting the movement that he ultimately spearheaded efforts to rebuild the group post January 6.

[00:25:18] The mission members including AP 3 are increasingly vocal about resorting to violence with leaders predicting that the outcome of future political elections will be decided by the quote the ammo box rather than the ballot box.

[00:25:32] This reflects a lot of shift in some militia circles toward embracing violent resistance against the government.

[00:25:37] AP 3 leaders particularly said in sought to align with police and sheriffs to increase their operational success this approach involved recruiting officers cultivating relationships with sheriffs and betraying AP 3 as a community focus group rather than a militia.

[00:25:53] Members often fostered connections with police departments offering joint training session and participating in community service events to improve their image.

[00:26:01] Key figures like edu banks and Oklahoma strategically ingratiated themselves with law enforcement through events beaten greets and intelligence sharing.

[00:26:11] AP 3 deployed members to the US Mexico border for vigilante style patrols collaborating with local sheriffs and sometimes clashing with the national guard.

[00:26:19] Despite legal limitations members were involved in detaining migrants and claimed cooperation with the border patrol.

[00:26:25] Setton's rhetoric became increasingly extreme with a growing faction within AP 3 advocating for violence particularly in response to political developments members discussed assassinations a tag team and potential mass actions against government institutions.

[00:26:42] Setton's credibility crumbled after revelations about his falsified military background.

[00:26:47] So he claimed to be like this big military hero and then someone got a hold of this discharge papers and I think he was an act duty to leave five months or something.

[00:26:54] And financial mismanagement through his nonprofit front as results AP 3 splintered with many members defecting to other militias while maintaining their radical mission.

[00:27:04] AP 3 struggles are emblematic of a broader decentralization in the militia movement although the group fractured many former members continues to operate independently or with other organizations often coordinating through secure messaging acts and remain committed to anti government extremist goals.

[00:27:23] Chris, would you think of this one?

[00:27:25] Well, quick thing. We're messaging output are using.

[00:27:29] Oh, I have to go back and look at the, oh, I had to go back and look at this article was it was it was it tell a group.

[00:27:36] It was the number of people.

[00:27:37] There you go.

[00:27:40] Oh, man. So yeah, I'm very, very interesting and concerning our school. I'd obviously backing up what we were just saying about telegram.

[00:27:50] So I think if you, I've got a few random notes here, but I was really interesting about interested about how this militia group were doing things like delivering food to the veterans center and look like they were trying to appreciate themselves military veterans who fall on hard times.

[00:28:05] And this is sort of one strategy. I've noticed the far right do and even maybe some extreme political groups at the other tangent as well, but typically far right groups like to focus on something really basic and tangible which in this situation is supplying food those need.

[00:28:24] So then that individual can be seen as a person of action over words and if that action is something noble like supplying food, then over time that individual gets seen as a charitable and people tend to kind of forget or overlook the kind of nasty side of their politics or even maybe start not to believe that this nice man it gives me food really paints a lot of people you know it's really hateful person or it could be a woman too.

[00:28:52] So and it kind of reminds me a little bit of some enganctors and drug lords do you know our Capone and Pablo Escobar were both very famous for their charitable contributions at a local level as was the greatest sex offender in UK history so Jimmy Savel or no longer so Jimmy Savel who was this sort of children's TV presenter who was always involved with charity and managed to become the country's worst ever sex offender.

[00:29:20] So if you're American and never heard of Jimmy Savel, you know you're lucky person but he was a massive figure on TV for decades very famous you know had audiences with prime ministers I think met the queen a few times etc.

[00:29:34] I would think that it always was a bit odd. I would guess most Americans have never heard of Jimmy Savel.

[00:29:38] No no and I think there's a Netflix documentary about if you want to find out more but he was a very strange man hiding in plain sites but was a lot of the time was very protected because of his charitable status and contributions and the problem is with those situations then if you are investigating some individual something bad they kind of seen as oh hang on a minute this is the guy who's raised millions for this course it kind of provides this sort of armor that got a bit careful about so

[00:30:07] not saying you should be suspicious of people with time for charitable but there are some instances where that might be justified and in that that chilling quote that you brought up earlier about the election won't be decided about it box it'd be decided by the ammo box that's really quite disturbing

[00:30:24] and yeah the only thing I suppose it came out a little bit as well in the article was about how January to six did appear to be a bit of a wake up call both for the security services like the FBI and the states but also

[00:30:35] for some of these militia members themselves and they lost a lot of membership because suddenly they saw that they're kind of should say military cosplaying actually had consequences

[00:30:45] and they could go to jail for quite some time and lose their jobs and stuff and I think for some people the risk was not worth it and I think you've said this before as well about the

[00:30:56] people talk about we can have a civil war and do this that in the other but the second they realize about to lose their netflix privileges they kind of retreated

[00:31:05] and I think with seldon he's so sore all this and felt quite disenchanted but then worryingly like a sort of new generation the people came to the group who were

[00:31:18] seen January to six and really fired up and wanted more and that they're anything they're more concerning

[00:31:24] but I like to think because this is an article that we're reading in a paper that the FBI etc probably very much aware of what's going on

[00:31:33] and hopefully doing their best to kind of sort out individuals like this but it was also the other interesting thing in the

[00:31:39] world about how the seldon is group were trying to make a very conservative effort to win over local law enforcement kind of at the sheriff level

[00:31:50] and in some cases they appeared to be successful and in other cases they weren't but there was this sort of spreadsheet that they mentioned that they created

[00:31:58] to list all the sheriff's et cetera by name and then put next their name whether they were kind of like a republican

[00:32:05] or whether they might be friendly or not now that was you know people I was saying earlier these extreme scripts are quite intelligent

[00:32:12] you know you should never take them as idiots or anything like that but one other thing that kind of stood out as well as seldon

[00:32:20] people like seldon do tend to be these people who try to fill a void in their lives sounds to me like when you look at his life

[00:32:28] he hadn't done yeah he had never had done very well in his kind of you know he's going from one career to another

[00:32:35] one job to another hadn't succeeded in the military but was sort of trying to trade off this sort of matcho image and the line that really was a bit

[00:32:46] of sad but also at the same time really showed the void is in was he often recorded his video directives to his troops from his car

[00:32:54] while striving between deliveries for uber and it might know it's too I was going to be a man

[00:32:59] imagine if you put that in your novel I just think we would believe it no it would be it would be comical

[00:33:07] it would be a slag stick like he's doing after the thing it would be very

[00:33:13] it would really depend on on on how you frame it and where you go with the character later

[00:33:19] you know but that like you know cut screen I guess if you want to call it

[00:33:24] or like you know like you have like he's like looking in the camera recording these orders these marching orders and stuff

[00:33:32] and he's like he's like he's like he's like you know far right militia members like this essentially like this domestic car group

[00:33:38] in waiting and then like you zoom out and like he's waiting to pick up something yet like McDonald's for his

[00:33:45] for his for his for it like it's it's kind of ridiculous if just wasn't so potentially just real and just dangerous you know

[00:33:56] it's crazy isn't it and that um obviously everything oh yeah the other note was going to say what's the other

[00:34:01] interestingly far right militias is that in many cases they're downfall tens to be because of the ego

[00:34:08] whoever their figurehead is members getting cold feet after a proper brush with the law so

[00:34:14] yeah very very interesting piece not I'll hand it back to you just case you had never sort of thoughts

[00:34:18] what's that yeah I mean you spoke to sort of it weird sort of complexities I found around

[00:34:26] the red and just sort of who he is and like as you said just sort of lost and that bit about him

[00:34:32] you know running this militia between between Uber Eats orders really just sort of knocked me off my

[00:34:39] feet like wow man this is where we are something else I noticed really also was that like

[00:34:47] how January 6

[00:34:50] drew a lot of members away from the movement you know where they saw it like oh I'm not actually a domestic terrorist

[00:34:58] you know I'm not for you know actually like going to war with the federal government here I have a life and a job

[00:35:04] and like I can't be a part of this let me melt back into society and just sort of maybe you know quietly support it from afar

[00:35:12] there's also then it attracted new people you know the one of things that I thought I was that quote from he from Tom size

[00:35:21] Moore's character like for me the action is the juice you know that's who who became attracted to this stuff after January 6

[00:35:30] and I think that is potentially really dangerous the other sort of point I thought of I mean I thought for a long time

[00:35:38] I think we've discussed it here in the eventuality that Trump loses in November and right now you know sitting here on September

[00:35:49] 12 it's close it's not it's not a done deal it's not decided but a lot of trend lines suggest that that's going to happen right now thankfully

[00:36:00] and I hope it stays that way you know what what do these people do in that eventuality I mean I think for much of the far right or the right wing sort of space that has become radicalized

[00:36:16] and the last decade that Trump has been sort of like the main character of the American right right this election is kind of their

[00:36:30] last attempt to gain power through the political system by participating in it you know and

[00:36:40] and when that when when that doesn't turn out the way they want it to right where do they go you know where else

[00:36:50] I mean you saw 2020 COVID January 6 is this deeply radicalizing event for them Donald Trump losing and then finally facing justice in his various criminal trials and stuff

[00:37:02] will be another radicalizing event for them and I just I want to where else do they have to go but violence

[00:37:11] where where where else is there I don't I don't know and I mean I'm sure there's a lot of them that you know when you get faced with the reality of you know being a domestic terrorist

[00:37:22] and going to war with the federal government that you know there's a lot of rationality and being like well maybe maybe not for me and I'll just you know yelled at it on Facebook

[00:37:33] but there's some people who who for them the action is the juice and I don't know where else like oh and I think we're going to

[00:37:43] I think you'll see it between the election and the inauguration you know I don't think it will be as sort of like big and and organized part of that is because

[00:37:54] Donald Trump won't control the executive branch of the federal government this time around but there's a lot of you know little smaller nuisances

[00:38:04] in at the state and local level certainly with these sheriffs you know they talk a lot about how this group has done a lot of outreach to sheriff organizations and there is this

[00:38:14] part of the ideology of the far right a lot of the think that in the US that the county sheriff is the only constitutionally allowed level of law enforcement right like it's the sheriff and that's it anything else above that is on constitutional we don't need to pay attention

[00:38:31] to the right and I think that's why a lot of them really focus on these sheriff movements and that ideology has been received very sympathetic by a lot of sheriffs all around the country and I just think there's I know like there was that

[00:38:47] in looking at like at the start of the war on terror of 911 everything people use the analogy of like

[00:38:55] when the Soviet Union collapse we defeated this dragon and now we're in this room with a bunch of different poisonous snakes right and I really sort of see that potentially being kind of a similar situation where you know with Trump

[00:39:10] off the scene you know now potentially after November that dragon has been defeated but now there's going to be a bunch of other smaller

[00:39:19] poisonous snakes and I think there's potential for real like I said I don't I don't think like civil war because like we've said before people want to turn on their lights which

[00:39:28] and have the lights come on or turn the faucet and have water come out so I don't think we really want that but um there's a lot of potential for a lot lower level political violence I would go back to

[00:39:40] the example that I think is really potentially useful for people to look at when imagining what this would be like it would be the trebles in Northern Ireland through the 70s like this is stained period of sort of low level political violence in the background that is

[00:39:58] tacitly or even overly accepted by a portion of the population and political leaders I think that's something that is probably probably what it would look something like would be the trebles in Northern Ireland

[00:40:13] and these guys would be you know playing that same role like the IRA or any other loyal wasn't delicious did

[00:40:21] this is it yeah then parks strategically full of semantics yeah city of London etc. suffered from that over the years totally

[00:40:29] David Nyward who was a former guest in this show I must try and get him back on because he's actually written an article based on that very scenario just talked about about the

[00:40:39] troubles but about the rise in political violence should Trump lose yeah it was a very interesting piece that probably we should talk about actually but in back my mind I think I'm just getting on so I must do that

[00:41:08] with mass violence almost on a daily basis already because of these mass shootings get they may or may not be politically motivated but you already do sadly live in a situation where that has become normalised

[00:41:23] and you know we've only had a few mass shootings in this country and it's led to huge political change I mean at the Dumb Lane

[00:41:32] and then we had the hunger for mass occur in the 80s which led to the bany of I think automatic rifles

[00:41:47] and yeah so it's we're very lucky that we've already had you know a very less than I can stick on a single hand could be wrong there but it is definitely the definitely under 10 come to mind

[00:41:59] probably under 5 to be honest but yeah we're very lucky in that regard so yeah very very difficult situation

[00:42:09] so yeah I'm not sure what else I could add to that but I thought it was really good piece thank you for sharing that with us

[00:42:16] I did a few have any sort of other thoughts on all this piece it's just interesting thing to keep an eye on I think these groups are

[00:42:24] terrorist groups and all but name I mean you see the way they're organizing like the like

[00:42:30] as balla for example there are terrorist groups they're not just a bunch of men with guns and missiles and stuff they also run schools and hothinals and charities and construct firms and stuff

[00:42:40] and you see and have allied themselves with you know Lebanese political legitimate Lebanese political authorities

[00:42:49] and I think you see you see that that same those same trends happening here I think these are terrorist groups and all but name and they're just sort of

[00:42:59] waiting for that sort of inciting inciting moment to really go off the deep end and I I wonder where they go once

[00:43:07] Trump is

[00:43:09] not coming back and they need to find the new lord and savior because this one isn't rising from the dead I wonder what they do with that

[00:43:16] yeah yeah it did cross my mind because obviously a lot of these groups lost their shit over the fact that Obama was a black man

[00:43:24] and can't allow her as being a black one reading point does make you wonder how people are going to react to that

[00:43:30] you know it did cross my mind the other day I was just so yeah so yeah I don't know is sort of I'm really

[00:43:39] hopeful for your elections but at the same time there's so many dark aspects to both positive and negative outcomes it's just like

[00:43:48] in many ways I think looking past November is sort of like whatever happens it's sort of like looking past the event horizon you know you cannot you cannot possibly predict what what will what will come you can't at least you can't you can't know for sure

[00:44:06] I don't know yeah no no only I don't know of one man who thinks he knows for sure what's happening but

[00:44:16] who is that

[00:44:18] is that an alumnus man

[00:44:21] it is that a look with the yeah well it seems to be a

[00:44:26] a good one

[00:44:31] true true indeed indeed and yeah I look at me a lot of hope but we'll see what happens

[00:44:40] I think is crossed it is 40 year track record continues as it is

[00:44:45] I think it's a really good one

[00:44:49] yeah one of our last cherry topic for the day so so I lost your topic of the day we've got a globally integrated Islamic state and this is a piece from war on the rocks by Aaron why

[00:45:01] Zeeland or Zillin

[00:45:04] so it's a piece from war on the rocks by Aaron why Zeeland so

[00:45:09] this piece starts with the Islamic state today operates as a more integrated and resilient global network than al-Qaeda ever was

[00:45:17] of its central organization connected to various provinces worldwide

[00:45:22] this marks a shift from its previous focus on territorial control in rock and Syria

[00:45:28] I.S. has adapted its leadership structure with greater involvement of provinces outside of rock and Syria

[00:45:35] and it's now and the general director of provinces we mentioned before is now central to coordinating governance with foreign

[00:45:43] fighter mobilization and external operations and potentially with its leadership hub in Somalia which is quite an interesting thing that may come back to the bit

[00:45:53] despite shifting global attention to other issues such as China and Russia, IS remains a significant and evolving threat

[00:46:00] policy makers must avoid underestimating its current organizational strength

[00:46:06] which could lead to repeated misinterpretations and policy failures

[00:46:11] the Islamic states external operations have evolved into a more resilient globally coordinated network

[00:46:17] and rather than being in a single controlled province is in many places and many regions now

[00:46:24] and those include you know the allows for broad scope for tax which includes various regions including Iran, Turkey and Russia

[00:46:32] as well as ongoing recruitment efforts online

[00:46:36] and interestingly Turkey has become a central hub for Islamic state operations serving as a node for recruitment, attack planning and financing schemes

[00:46:45] arrests and disrupted plots in countries like Germany and Russia further emphasised Turkey's role in facilitating global Islamic state

[00:46:54] activities including those tied to foreign fighter networks and money laundering schemes

[00:46:59] the Islamic states current model which no longer depends on territorial control present new challenge for global counterterrorism

[00:47:07] and the other is integrated and adaptive networks across multiple provinces requires a different approach

[00:47:12] as traditional methods use against groups the group in Iraq and Syria may not be as effective in other regions

[00:47:20] particularly in Africa and Central Asia so I don't know if you have any thoughts on all of this

[00:47:25] I wanted to get Aaron on the podcast for a while now to talk about the Islamic state and sort of what its next

[00:47:32] chapter will be definitely in this season that's one that like I want to do, that's an episode I want to do

[00:47:42] we sort of I don't know we have the tools the resources the playbook within J. Sock and our intelligence agencies to sort of hack away at the Orchards

[00:47:54] and organizations like this we got very good at deleting charisess over the last 20-20-23 years as of yesterday

[00:48:07] so it's not something we can't do again you know I think the important thing then is the difference now is you know like

[00:48:24] the last 23 years rather we were sort of entirely focused on these terrorist groups and that's not you know that's not the the wealth of the geopolitical challenges we face

[00:48:34] you know Russia and China are now still and others are now very real challenges as well so we cannot put like horse blinders on and just focus on these terrorist groups

[00:48:48] but it's interesting to see what sort of the second act of what ISIS will look like

[00:48:56] I mean we mentioned in a espresso martini how just as messaging is able to radicalize teenagers in Austria to potentially go attack a terrorist group gone through try to kill thousands of people you know this is a very serious thing

[00:49:12] I also would be to flag as a potential concern there's a possibility that in 2026 so we have a status of forces agreement with the Iraqic government which sort of governs the legal ability of us to have that remnant force within Iraq right

[00:49:35] that we brought back in I think starting in 2014 right when ISIS controlled territory as large as Britain right we defeated that there's still groups there they're not they're just to sort of keep an eye on ISIS in the area I think they've in the last year they become really useful and sort of combating some of the Iranian proxies but there's a potential when this comes up to be negotiated again and I think yeah 2026 I believe

[00:50:04] US forces will have to leave Iraq entirely which means we'll probably also have to leave Syria because that footprint in Iraq helps us logistically support those forces in Syria and that's going to leave

[00:50:18] you know a vacuum on the map where these groups can sort of organize and flourish again yeah it's it's an issue I go back to again we we know how to we are very good like I said within J. Socket the intelligence community very good at picking apart these networks

[00:50:40] you just can't let it be the all-in-compassing focus of our foreign policy for the next you know 20 years because it's just not like it's it's not all that rich we got a lot of other concerns as well whether it's China or Russia or climate or any number of things

[00:51:00] yeah indeed well think there is a danger that as America shifts its focus to Russia and China ISIS could become ignored and forgotten which would be a big mistake

[00:51:10] yeah and we've seen it happen everywhere around so when the war in terror kicked off in the early 2000s threats from Russia and China was significantly ignored as the focus went on to our

[00:51:23] and the war in Iraq and Afghanistan providing intelligence for those you know most of the former CIA people we've spoken to

[00:51:32] or either in Afghanistan or Iraq at some point or another in a career and it has led to you know what's going on with Russia or

[00:51:41] the US people across the Europe etc and yeah so it's going to be really careful and yeah it's just some kind of sometimes tends to be a tendency of politicians to just sort of focus on one or two things

[00:51:58] and not see the national security threat as a much bigger picture.

[00:52:03] And especially members of the public too, you know,

[00:52:04] I remember many elections ago, I think it was 2010 or 11.

[00:52:10] 10, sorry 2010 when Nick Kleg who was then running as the leader of the liberal democrat

[00:52:15] party said something on the lines off, we don't need deterrent to see anymore.

[00:52:20] We don't need tried because the real threats from terrorism.

[00:52:23] Well that's um, it's like, yeah. Also, you know, there were single minders.

[00:52:27] Yeah, there was that famous example of um in Obama's debate in 2012 with Romney.

[00:52:34] Romney said something to the effect of that, you know, Russia was our greatest geopolitical

[00:52:40] foe. And he said this is a time where the mainstreamed yet of was president,

[00:52:45] sort of keeping the seat warm between Putin's first two terms and then he when he came back

[00:52:51] and just was a full indicator at that point.

[00:52:53] Even Putin needs a break.

[00:52:55] And he wasn't able to entirely, you know, reshape the Russian political system to just keep him in power

[00:53:01] and perpetuity. And you know, he was he was laughed at by Obama and sort of the entire like US

[00:53:08] political establishment, you know, like 20th century, want their politics back.

[00:53:13] And Romney wasn't Romney was entirely correct to have said that, you know, he's been completely

[00:53:19] proven right in the years since I think it was only two years later that Crimea was invaded by

[00:53:25] the Russians. So it's it's it's true. We sort of have this this trend is to want to sort

[00:53:31] of hyper focus on one geopolitical big bad at a time and we just we just don't have that luxury.

[00:53:37] So that's why I got back to my main point here. We definitely know how to to counter threats like this.

[00:53:44] We've gotten very good at it in the last 23 years, but we don't have the luxury to focus entirely

[00:53:49] on it. There's other other issues, too, that are very different. Yeah indeed indeed.

[00:53:55] And just as I was reading this today, I saw the Sufont Center just sent out an email

[00:54:00] I'll do a few of you seeing it today, but it was talk about how they've got to report and how Germany

[00:54:04] is facing an uptick of ISIS and spy terrorism. So the examples they mentioned on the 5th of September

[00:54:11] and 18 year old Austrian national named Emra I who had Bosnia and Roots were shot dead by police

[00:54:17] and the shootout outside the Israeli consulate in Munich. Apparently it was arm of an antique gun

[00:54:22] that also had a bay and as attached to it and the incident happened to take place on the 52nd

[00:54:27] anniversary of the Munich Olympic terrorist attack, which Black September took members of the

[00:54:34] Israeli athletic team hostage and then later killed them in cold blood as police tried to stop them

[00:54:39] from escaping at Munich airport. Then on the following day, a 29 year old Albanian insists

[00:54:46] went into a police station in the town of called Lins and shouted Al-Aqbar whilst vocalising

[00:54:52] his intent to kill police officers. And he was swiftly dealt with. And in earlier on the 23rd

[00:54:58] of August there was this terrible knife attack during ironically or not the festival diversity,

[00:55:05] which was an event in a town called Zulinjen, which is a German town, I hope I've put it as that

[00:55:12] Zulinjen. And three people were killed and eight people injured and the attack was later

[00:55:19] claimed by the Islamic State on its new site, Amac and the perpetrator had apparently targeted

[00:55:27] Christians who and the attack was a soldier of the Islamic State seeking to avenge Muslims in

[00:55:35] Palestine and elsewhere. And the man responsible for that attack was a Syrian man who's known

[00:55:42] named his Ali H, and he was arrested along with a 15-year-old boy who was arrested for having

[00:55:48] prior knowledge of the attack. And these sort of attacks sadly fuel far right narratives in the West.

[00:55:55] One thing I'd like to just point out when I once spoke with a Spokane many terrorist

[00:55:59] Mexibers, but when a particular one said to me that terrorist attacks, feeling far right narratives

[00:56:08] are exactly what ISIS wants. They want to push ordering Muslims and non-Muslims to the extremes

[00:56:15] so that they can benefit from Muslims who turn to them for protection. And so unfortunately,

[00:56:25] ISIS, etc., do weaponize the use of foreign nationals for their aims and they kind of do it on purpose

[00:56:32] to fuel these far right narratives. And I think people need to be aware of that and temper their

[00:56:38] reactions to such things. And it's sad that they picked that festival diversity to do this knife attack.

[00:56:45] But at the same time, you can see how that is the perfect target because then you get the right

[00:56:50] being pressed. The next day he's saying, look at his first full diversity. Immigrant killed these people.

[00:56:57] You know, you can always write the headline yourself and it's, you know, these terrorist groups

[00:57:00] are not stupid so that was probably by design. So, you know, one I don't think it helps matters

[00:57:07] by falling into far right narratives. And so, you know, just like to remind or I love the audience

[00:57:12] out there that you know, you got to be a bit careful about those kind of things. But yeah, I think

[00:57:17] that is probably the cheery note to wrap up on. This is everything else you want to.

[00:57:21] Cheery couple episodes today. Yeah, hopefully it doesn't set the tone for the rest of the season,

[00:57:27] but I don't know. Probably well. No one will talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we're moving into

[00:57:34] full or awesome in the UK, which to me is really traditional espionage weather. For me,

[00:57:41] it gets dark and moody, you know, start to wear longer coats and, you know, the sun sets earlier.

[00:57:49] And I just feel more comfortable in the shadows during that time. Sorry.

[00:57:54] And I'm sure a lot of bad people do too. Hi, bringing the hibernating. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:58:01] Oh, yeah. So, yeah. So, no, I think it probably will be a dark and moody season for a while.

[00:58:06] I will try and make sure there's the odd lights half a day episode where we can.

[00:58:13] But yeah, it's been a good to get back into things. And I hope we haven't caused you nightmares

[00:58:20] or anything else. But there we go. So Matt, do you have any interesting plans for the weekend?

[00:58:30] I'm going to be in Florida for the rest of the week here. So yeah, got a lot of reading. I want to do

[00:58:37] just going to be hanging out. There's a pool sort of a very short walk. I can actually look at it

[00:58:43] right over there, over that way. So hopefully, spend a lot of time there. Yeah. No fantastic fantastic.

[00:58:50] I think my plan is to just find the name of the movie a second so I have completely forgotten it.

[00:59:00] I've had seen this film called Lee, which is about the the War for Tografer and so I'll be seeing

[00:59:05] that over the weekend. I'm looking forward to that. And I'll probably be doing my usual round of cooking

[00:59:10] et cetera and a bit of editing. And yeah, I think hopefully I'm going to try and sneak in a pumpkin

[00:59:18] spice last day this weekend as we know, officially in that season. So yeah. Yeah, it's um, I sort of

[00:59:26] once we get past a timber, I sort of allow it. I all start. I won't. I mean, you can get it here in the

[00:59:32] US and like, like mid August now a lot of places have it, which to me is just crazy. Like there's no

[00:59:38] way. Yeah. But I September, especially when the when the humidity kind of goes off, it's still

[00:59:43] humid right. It's different. But you know, yeah, it's a bit more acceptable, I guess. Yeah.

[00:59:49] No, definitely. Well, we have a short window in the UK unless they've changed it, but they stop

[00:59:53] selling it after Halloween and they move to their Christmas drinks. So, uh, so there's

[00:59:58] only a very sort of window of middle August to the end of October to grab a pumpkin spice

[01:00:03] later. Yeah. At least in the UK, I can't speak from our. I'm not sure when they kick over the Christmas

[01:00:07] stuff that at like Starbucks and everything. I want to say it's a little bit. It's definitely

[01:00:11] before Thanksgiving. I don't know if it's right after Halloween now. But yeah. Well, there we go. Cool,

[01:00:19] well, thank you very much for your time. Thank you. Yeah, that was been great. And thank

[01:00:25] you everybody for listening and don't forget if you haven't taken part in the survey,

[01:00:29] I'll put a link to it in the notes on here as well. But, uh, you know, huge thank you for your

[01:00:34] support and Patreon. You know, you help keep this show going. And, um, you know, we couldn't, we wouldn't

[01:00:40] be here about your support. So thank you very much for supporting us on Patreon. Thanks. And, uh,

[01:00:46] take care and we'll catch you on the next one. Bye.