[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_00]: and Spies presents Espresso Martini with Chris Carr and Matt Fulton.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello everybody and welcome to our first episode of Espresso Martini at the beginning of our

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_01]: latest season, Season 9. Before we kick off I just wanted to point out that this podcast

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_01]: is obviously entering its ninth year which I think is pretty amazing and Matt I just

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_01]: want to say a huge thank you to you for all your efforts on the show and I just

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_01]: want to thank everybody out there who's listening. We've been going for, yeah, well, nine years,

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: we're starting on ninth year so we've been going for eight years and it's been quite

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_01]: a journey and the podcast has sort of evolved from being once a month to almost weekly now

[00:01:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and obviously we've got plans afoot for this season so this year one of our goals is to

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and recorded and so what you might find is some of the edits might be a bit looser than what you

[00:01:24] [SPEAKER_01]: used to, there'd be a lot more umming and ah-ing just because unfortunately video doesn't cut so

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_01]: well as audio. So I hope my IQ doesn't drop by like 10 points through that process

[00:01:34] [SPEAKER_02]: because it might well do so. You see as for how we really are. Yeah, yeah, suddenly the

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_01]: curtain's thrown back but yeah and next week I'm recording my first ever studio-based interview

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: just because I wanted to see if I could get a couple of nice looking videos for YouTube

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_01]: just to get us going and then in time when we've got the right guest and the right

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_01]: opportunity sort of do a few sort of video specials so more news about that to come over

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_01]: the next sort of few weeks but before we kick off as well, Matt how are you and how

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_01]: was your summer because this is our first sort of on air chat since the summer?

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I know it feels like we've been off for like a while. Yeah, I was getting ready for this

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_02]: one. I was like wait how do we do these episodes again? It sure took me a minute

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_02]: but yeah I've been good. Thank you for all the time words about the podcast. This has

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_02]: been a really kind of a cool ride seeing how it's really developed. I mean we didn't,

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_02]: don't think we had really you know this like clear cut of a plan of how it would sort of

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_02]: grow and evolve and everything. It just sort of just did naturally and we're just sort of doing

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_02]: what kind of I don't know sticks and makes sense. Yeah, yeah trying to keep nimble and

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_01]: keep on top of what we think's working and then sort of finesse what we think's not quite

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_01]: working but yeah I think I hope we're doing all right. Certainly we've been doing this

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: amazing survey and if you haven't taken part yet the link will be in the show notes but

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_01]: we've had quite a lot of participants in that and it's just been really sort of humbling and

[00:03:09] [SPEAKER_01]: interesting to see what people's view on the show has been and largely it's been very

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: positive and you know it's been a few constructive points that were taken on board

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: but generally it's been a yeah very sort of positive process and it just reassures us that

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: least what we're doing at the moment is pretty much you know we're doing okay and it doesn't

[00:03:34] [SPEAKER_01]: sound like you want us to radically change the show. You know we won't film it you know as I

[00:03:39] [SPEAKER_01]: was saying jokingly on a few episodes ago I won't shave my head and do steroids or anything

[00:03:43] [SPEAKER_01]: to enhance the show. I might try to get a bit. We're not going to join the manosphere? Yeah the manosphere oh my goodness can you imagine?

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: We're not going to cash in on that money. Get some Russian, yeah we need to get some

[00:03:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Russian money for the next election cycle because I think we missed this one.

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah yeah but there we go so yeah so just thank you everybody who has taken part and

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: anybody's considering thank you in advance and hopefully over the next few months you'll see

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_01]: a few little tweaks here and there but hopefully the experience won't change too

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_01]: dramatically from what you're used to and we're keeping an eye on all the sort of tech

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_01]: points. There's been one or two comments about on some episodes the odds of variation in audio levels and we'll do our best to kind of keep an eye on that

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: but yeah so let's move into what we're going to be discussing today. So on Espresso Martini we're

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_01]: going to be looking at tortured teens and a terrorist plus in Vienna that targeted a Taylor Swift concert

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and then we're going to be looking at the arrest of Telegram's founder in France. Then we will be looking at as we've already briefly

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_01]: talked about US influencers in the pay of Russia and then we're going to wrap up taking a look at the heads of MI6 and the CIA appearing on stage together in the UK.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Then on Extra Shop which is our Patreon only show and you can get access to it by clicking on the link in the show notes.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to look at stochastic terrorism which is using disgust to fuel violence.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Then we're going to take a peek into the AP3 militia group in the US and then finally we're going to look at the

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_01]: rise of a globally integrated ISIS that seems to be coming back or maybe never went in the first place.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So Matt we will start with your piece about the connection with tortured teens and terrorism

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_01]: which you know is quite an eye-opener and a bit of a concerning kind of link really so I'll hand over to you.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_02]: You know this was a piece by Farah Pandith and Jacob Ware who's you know been on been on here a couple times.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Really great counter-terrorism analyst just you know looks at extremism in general.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah they wrote an article about the plot to attack a Taylor Swift concert in Vienna in August so

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm excited to talk about it here. A couple key points from it, the foil terror plot at a Taylor

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Swift concert in Vienna in August underscores how teenagers are being increasingly radicalized online.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_02]: The three teens arrested have been influenced by the Islamic State joining a concerning global

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_02]: trend of younger individuals being drawn into extremist ideologies. Extremist ideologies thrive

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: on platforms like ex, formerly Twitter, Facebook and YouTube where algorithms amplify hateful

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_02]: content. Despite capturing detailed user data tech companies have failed to address this issue

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_02]: meaningfully making only surface level changes to their platforms. While Europe has taken

[00:06:36] [SPEAKER_02]: proactive steps such as the EU's 2022 internet regulations, US efforts to counter youth

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_02]: extremism are limited. The recent kids online safety act is a step forward but much more is

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_02]: needed including better regulation of tech companies and stronger enforcement against harmful

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_02]: content. Historically youth movements have been powerful drivers of social change. The article

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_02]: calls for a youth quake where young people unite online and offline to reject extremism

[00:07:03] [SPEAKER_02]: using their creativity and influence to counter hate similar to past youth led initiatives

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: like Greta Thunberg's climate activism and the March for Our Lives movement. Adults should play

[00:07:14] [SPEAKER_02]: a supporting role in helping youth combat extremism by empowering young people to lead

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_02]: campaigns in their own authentic way. Governments and civil society can foster peer driven

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_02]: solutions to address online hate and polarization. Chris, what did you think about this?

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah very interesting piece. I just will quickly say if you hear any bangs behind me there's

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_01]: a thunderstorm that's just kicking off in London at the moment so don't fear and I apologize

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_01]: already big bangs and if you hear a creak it might be my chair which I might be considering

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: swapping this season but anyway. So all that aside, so with regards to that Taylor Swift

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_01]: plot it is interesting it was her concert that was targeted as she's been getting a

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of lot of attention from Alt Rice and Andrew Tate inspired men online and probably

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_01]: be getting more attention from them now after she openly endorsed Kamala Harris didn't she for

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_01]: her presidential run. Now even though this was an ISIS inspired plot I ask if there was a

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_01]: connection to it with all that online misogyny or whether she was just targeted because she's

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_01]: obviously the most was the most prominent person playing in Vienna that time you know

[00:08:24] [SPEAKER_01]: could it be that she was just because she was so famous that the plotter decided oh I'm

[00:08:29] [SPEAKER_01]: while you know a few weeks later it could have been somebody else trying to think of somebody

[00:08:35] [SPEAKER_01]: as famous as Taylor Swift but a man can you think of an example somebody who would be as

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_01]: famous as Taylor Swift at the moment but a bloke trying to think of a good analogy there

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_02]: it's not Elton John. Oh man I don't know, I don't know someone who's comparable at least today

[00:08:55] [SPEAKER_02]: um I don't know I mean it really doesn't like the size of her fame and the crowds that she

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_02]: draws really doesn't doesn't compare to anything right now I don't I don't think.

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_01]: No and certainly to our crowds driving past Wembley Stadium recently my god my wife and

[00:09:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I were caught in a bit of a traffic jam because a lot of people were kind of piling

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: into the stadium so she does draw a huge crowd um so yeah and then when I heard about

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_01]: this plot so the plot led to the cancellation of her concert in Vienna um and it kind of had

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_01]: echoes of the terrible Manchester Arena bombing in 2017 and so with regards to this piece you

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_01]: mentioned it is deeply worrying that extremist narratives are sweeping up teenagers and some

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_01]: are then kind of crossing over into acts of terrorism or have at least been found plotting

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_01]: acts of terrorism in the name of you know different ideologies it's not just ISIS inspired

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of far-right ideologies and then there's sort of this um in cell ideology I remember the

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: name for incels because I don't really think about incels that often so forgive me for that

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_01]: blank there but good for you yeah I try not to think about them at all to be honest but

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_01]: there we go but they are one of the unfortunate realities of the the kind of

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_01]: world we live in at the moment it's been I think it's not though wish doing um wish

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_01]: one on but it's been a little while since we've had an outward in sale an incel

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_01]: attack I think I could be wrong but um it's been a little I think it's been a little

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: while since somebody's gone out and done something terrible um in the name of um

[00:10:31] [SPEAKER_01]: involuntary celibacy but uh but there we go it blends itself into a lot of other things

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah you know like you'll see you'll see all kind you'll see various stuff that's not

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_02]: exactly like a strictly incel attack but like the person behind it was definitely somewhat

[00:10:46] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah motivated by that blend of um disgust and frustration and inadequate and inadequacy

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_02]: and like rage at the system that that that fuels these these guys to do other

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_01]: to do other things yeah and it leads in it feeds then into this sort of misogynistic

[00:11:05] [SPEAKER_01]: outlook and blaming women and stuff and this sort of hatred of women right which is

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_02]: just burn just burn it all down yeah that mindset yeah yeah and there's there's somebody

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_01]: somewhere once talked about the link between um sex and terrorism and and um I'd need to

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_01]: dig into that and find who that was now and interview them but there certainly is a link

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: between sort of sexual inadequacy and violence um so definitely something there which obviously

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_01]: with being teenagers and things obviously you're kind of getting into your hormones and

[00:11:38] [SPEAKER_01]: learning all sorts of interesting things about yourself that you didn't realize so being a

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_01]: teenager obviously is one of the most I think difficult parts of your life to navigate a

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: little bit really um and so this is where you're at your most vulnerable because you're kind

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_01]: of in the process of developing your personality moving away from childhood into adulthood

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: and it can be quite awkward and and so um you know having access to the entire world

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_01]: at your fingertips that age I think you know yeah I think it was you said last season that

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_01]: social media or smartphones should be age restricted I think it was social media

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_01]: rather than smartphones but yeah yeah and I think there's a lot to be said for that but

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_01]: but I suppose the the practicality of actually policing that's a bit of a different matter

[00:12:25] [SPEAKER_01]: because like if I compare it to watching 18 certificate movies as a kid so I watched like

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_01]: hard at the age of 12 and that film isn't suitable for a 12 year old but I still managed to watch

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: it and enjoy it as did many of my friends who watched all sorts of films from horror films

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_01]: etc so um how do you keep kids off social media until the age of 18 I'm not sure obviously

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_01]: it requires parents to be a part of that and teachers but certainly um at a school level

[00:12:53] [SPEAKER_01]: uh you know smartphones etc could um be sort of taken out of the equation in the classroom

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_01]: but again kids and technology kids a lot usually tend to be a lot smarter than the adults who are

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_01]: watching over them and find sort of workarounds to things so uh tricky tricky one that one and

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_01]: one other interesting note as well and then so over August whilst I was filming at this um

[00:13:17] [SPEAKER_01]: wonderful Buddhist retreat that was quite frankly one of the best filming experience

[00:13:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I've had in a while and both quite zen whilst working there were these terrible riots

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_01]: kicking off across the UK so it was a real weird juxtaposition of checking in on my phone about

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_01]: these sort of different riots that were kicking off um and unfortunately had kind of connections

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_01]: to the far right and they were quite violent they weren't um en masse the same quite as

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: the the big riots we had in 2011 but certainly the small pockets of riots that we did have

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_01]: caused a lot of damage injured a lot of police officers and members of the public and

[00:13:52] [SPEAKER_01]: a lot of property as well and one of the youngest people arrested was actually 12 years old um and

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I find that very sad that a 12 year old has been arrested well I'm not sad that they've been

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_01]: arrested because if they did what they did they deserve to be arrested but I'm just sad that

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_01]: a 12 year old has managed to get themselves yeah yeah the sad that they found themselves

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_02]: in that situation and that was something that that that they could have been drawn to at

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_01]: you know yeah it's so sad and then on top of that there's a with that particular individual

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_01]: there was a hint of parental neglect because the day of his court case his mother was on

[00:14:31] [SPEAKER_01]: holiday in Ibiza um and so the trial was delayed whilst she was off on holidays there's

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_01]: been a lot of that in the tabloids over the last few days in the UK which then leads to

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_01]: responsible his parent actually is but again you know it's difficult to say

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_01]: from this sort of point of view without actually knowing the people so but yeah certainly

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_01]: parenting I think you know early experience and parenting plays a role both at home and

[00:15:02] [SPEAKER_01]: at school and you know at school it could be um you know kids are getting bullied it could

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_01]: have an undiagnosed learning difficulty as well so I've been working on this project about

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_01]: dyslexia and there was a really interesting point that came up that there's a huge crossover

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_01]: between offenders who are in prison who actually had an undiagnosed learning disorder in

[00:15:26] [SPEAKER_01]: education which caused them to leave education early and um so with all that that means that

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_01]: you know that person as a child had a very difficult education and felt very unfulfilled

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: and didn't leave really of any particular kind of academic skills or anything

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and went out into the big bad world and obviously those individuals ended up turning

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_01]: to crime because they kind of felt like outsiders so it's definitely something in an early

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_01]: life experience and I don't want to land a blame on parents or schools etc but certainly

[00:15:59] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a factor in what probably leads these teenagers to um kind of feeling vulnerable and

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_01]: I suppose being not sort of um maybe should we say supervised enough where they end up you know

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_01]: going online and going on to I don't know ices.com uh and ending up in Syria six months later so

[00:16:20] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah so very very interesting piece there um yeah I'll come back I don't know what your

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_02]: sort of thoughts on it all were I think the most striking thing that stood out to me from

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_02]: this whole this whole story is the age of the people involved you know so it was three

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_02]: males were arrested 17 18 and 19 all teenagers who were radicalized um entirely online you know it's

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_02]: not as if like looking back at say you know 2014 or something where they had traveled to Syria

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_02]: to to fight for ISIS on the ground and then came back for something you know ready to sort

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_02]: of operationalize that extremism um at home this happened uh entirely um online and I think

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_02]: we talked about we talked about social media um last season and and everything and how um

[00:17:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's it's clear now just how totally destructive it is to to young people um

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_02]: especially and that the the nature of how these algorithms are are constructed to see um

[00:17:29] [SPEAKER_02]: to see content that leads to extremism and rage as as sort of like fuel that keeps you

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_02]: engaged in the platform you know that like endless scroll where you can just sit there

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_02]: all day long I mean I've seen it at least in like my own kind of like recommendations on

[00:17:49] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know where something I'm looking at on like YouTube or Reddit or something where I

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_02]: you know see something that is I'll look at something that is in you know more of like

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_02]: one of the topics that you know we talk about on the show right and then I'll see you know

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_02]: pop up in like the recommendation something that is clearly bent towards I mean I would

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_02]: argue something very you know toxic whether that's um the far right or something and it's just

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_02]: of like for me at least it gives me pause I think I have the skills to to recognize

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_02]: what that is what's being recommended to me what's being served up to me um you know

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_02]: without necessarily asking for it you know but someone 17 or younger doesn't and it's just

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_02]: it's just something that just very quickly spirals out of control and it's absolutely

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_02]: unconscionable to me that we have these you know huge tech companies American companies for the

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_02]: most part that build their products in ways that bring out the worst in people that that

[00:19:02] [SPEAKER_02]: lead people to reinforce their worst selves it's something that we absolutely have to

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_02]: get a handle on you know and it's not something that's just you know leading one

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_02]: to you know planetarist stack for for ISIS it's all kinds of whether it's whether it's

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_02]: body issues or we talked about you know the the the in-cell problem or

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: whether it's far right extremism or far left extremism even um yeah it's just it's just

[00:19:33] [SPEAKER_02]: unconscionable to me that we're you know it's so clear now what what these what these

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: algorithms what these platforms the way they're the way they're designed and engineered what

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_02]: they're doing to their to their users and I it I don't understand how there is not more of a

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_02]: concerted effort to to get a grip on this and it's not just young people it's not just young

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_02]: people yeah I was going to say that people of all ages whose whose brains have been completely

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_02]: pickled by this by this shit online um and you know families have been destroyed over it

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_01]: well yeah it's interesting so older people as well kind of interesting in a similar

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_01]: situation to teenagers because there's quite a few older people out there who still didn't really

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_01]: grow up with um social media and youtube right and they sometimes slip into the mistake of

[00:20:24] [SPEAKER_01]: feeling like oh if i'm watching it on the internet or if i'm watching it on youtube it

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_01]: must be true and I know I've got a friend whose uncle who has become not radicalized but

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_01]: become a bit more conspiratorial in his thinking with regards to Ukraine so um you

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_01]: know he he's have basically taken on pro-russian talking points and his justification for that

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_01]: is because we can't believe the American intelligence services because they were wrong

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_01]: about the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and so basically he watches all these youtube

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_01]: videos that obviously tend to be very take a very pro-russian look and a very critical look

[00:21:01] [SPEAKER_01]: at NATO and the western support for Ukraine and it all links in with this mindset of well

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_01]: America made this you know the American intelligence made this huge error about weapons of mass

[00:21:13] [SPEAKER_01]: destruction so that means everything they say from this point onwards isn't true might be

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_01]: wrong etc and that's a whole other topic in itself but um but it's sort of this weird kind

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_01]: of contrarian thing so if you find information that goes against conventional thinking uh and

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: somehow lines up with something you're thinking it can lead you down these as we call them

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: because they you know they target people and um companies you know social media companies

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_01]: that wear the product they're making a fortune out of us and that content because they social

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_01]: media and youtube etc is designed for um people's attention it's not so much about the quality

[00:21:57] [SPEAKER_01]: of the content it's just about what drives engagement what keeps people interested and

[00:22:02] [SPEAKER_01]: you know look at media of old days um newspapers etc sensationalism sadly sells and sensationalism

[00:22:10] [SPEAKER_01]: online sells tabloids yeah so it's conspiracy theories it's sort of stuff about celebrities

[00:22:17] [SPEAKER_01]: doing bad things or embarrassing things um you know or then the state-backed propaganda where

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_01]: you know we've talked about this before Russia spend about a billion dollars a year on

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: misinformation efforts and China spend about six billion on information disinformation efforts

[00:22:39] [SPEAKER_01]: targeting the west and obviously youtube's going to be and social media is going to be a

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_01]: component of all that and so people need to be so careful about what they consume online

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_01]: and always be asking you know who is this person who's speaking to them you know what do

[00:22:58] [SPEAKER_01]: say about them what have they said in the past and how does that stack up with what you kind of

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_01]: know to be true obviously that gets a bit murky now but it shouldn't but what's accepted reality

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: should we say um and that usually by asking those questions gives you an idea quite quickly

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_01]: of reasonably how accurate people are because even even there are some mainstream commentators

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_01]: with regards to politics who make very wild claims um and then after the fact turn out

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_01]: to be completely baseless uh and it's yeah it's not good um so yeah got to be really careful

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_01]: um now there's one other thing i was going to just add if you don't mind i was just

[00:23:38] [SPEAKER_01]: googling why teenagers are here i went to google why googling why do teenagers turn

[00:23:43] [SPEAKER_01]: to extremism and this page came up from the devon safeguarding organization which is part of

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_01]: the uk government's prevent scheme and they have some interesting info about children at

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_01]: risk so i'll just quickly read out some points here um and then leave them with you guys so

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_01]: children at risk of radicalization may have low self-esteem will be victims of bullying or

[00:24:06] [SPEAKER_01]: discrimination they meet they may feel isolated and lonely or wanting to belong they might be

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: unhappy about themselves and what others think of them they might be embarrassed or feel judged

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_01]: about their culture gender religion or race they might be stressed or depressed they might be fed

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_01]: up of being bullied or treated badly by other people or by society and they might be angry

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_01]: at other people or the government they might be confused about what they're doing and there

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_01]: might be a pressure to stand up for other people who are being oppressed now radicalization

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_01]: happens overnight the website points out is sort of a gradual process so young children who affected

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_01]: may not even realize what's happening a bit like the uh boiling the frog analogy where

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: the frog doesn't realize it's being boiled until it's too late um and even then with

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_01]: regards to extremism by the time you kind of cross over you see yourself as right and

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_01]: everybody else is wrong so that's the other interesting thing of extremism um so extremist

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_01]: groups often target young via young people via the internet social media and the process

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_01]: might involve being groomed online or in person exploitation including sexual exploitation

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_01]: psychological manipulation exposure to violent material and other inappropriate information and

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: obviously twitter etc is very easy to see um you know terrible pictures from the front line

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_01]: of ukraine and things i mean i've seen more dead babies thanks to twitter than anything else

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_01]: in my lifetime um and as an adult i find that really sort of difficult so as a child imagine

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_01]: seeing that then also there's a risk of um physical harm or death through extremist acts

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_01]: which is part of that process as well and then radicalization they add can be challenging to

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_01]: spot but the signs that could indicate a child is being radicalized include a change in behavior

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_01]: changing their circle of friends isolating themselves from friends or family talking as

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_01]: if from a scripted speech so if you get any speeches at the dinner table that could be a

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_01]: sign there unwillingness unwillingness or inability to discuss their views a sudden

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: disrespectful attitude towards others increased levels of anger increased sensitivity sorry

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_01]: increased sensitivity especially around the use of the internet and then obviously access

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_01]: accessing extremist material online using extremist or hate terms to exclude others

[00:26:42] [SPEAKER_01]: or incite violence and then lastly writing or creating artwork prominent to violent extremist

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_01]: messaging now they do add however these signs don't necessarily mean a child is being

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_01]: radicalized sometimes it might be part of normal teenage behavior but it can be a

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_01]: sign yeah but it can be a sign that something else is wrong so i think you know i'm not a parent

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_01]: here but i suppose one would think it might be a good idea once in a while in a non-sort of

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_01]: challenging and non-judgmental way just to have a chat with your kid about the world

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and just ask them what their sort of views on things are just so you can kind of get

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_01]: a vibe do a vibe check every few weeks few months just to see like one month they were

[00:27:27] [SPEAKER_01]: really like i don't know liberal and then two months later they've gone very

[00:27:32] [SPEAKER_01]: illiberal that might be a sign of many things but it is definitely a sign of a change so it

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: might be interesting to say well hey two months ago you believed this what what caused you to

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: change your mind it's not necessarily wrong but why did you change your attitude what what

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_01]: led to that what did you watch what did you see maybe you could share something with me

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: and see if the kid can your kid can kind of convince you to

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_01]: change your views and see where they're coming from because that might you never know it might

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_01]: well bring up something that might be a cause for concern or it might not but yeah easier

[00:28:06] [SPEAKER_01]: said than done and i'm not a parent so you know feel free to ignore that advice but to

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_02]: me it makes sense but one more one more point here that i think is really that uh

[00:28:16] [SPEAKER_02]: here they say they talk about uh where is the term that they use here oh yeah uh a youth quake

[00:28:23] [SPEAKER_02]: you know where they say that any sort of um effort towards counter radicalization here has

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_02]: to be really centered within within gen z itself you know within within young people yeah very

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah young people are i think we can all remember uh predisposed to do what they think will be

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_02]: popular um predisposed to go with the flow and and sort of do what they think everyone else is

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_02]: doing and when you fall into one of these extremist spaces online it's very easy to at

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_02]: least have the false illusion that you know that there's this community around you that

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_02]: this this like-minded community that feels and thinks the way the way you do right and

[00:29:06] [SPEAKER_02]: i think for a lot of these people for a lot of these kids i should say that's exactly

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_02]: what what they're looking for so you know they use this example here about the march for our lives

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_02]: movement that followed the um parkland uh school shooting in in florida where i'm sitting in uh

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_02]: 2016 um and you know so it's it's it's easier i guess for these young people to perhaps

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_02]: resist these extremist currents if there's a bunch of their peers around them you know in

[00:29:43] [SPEAKER_02]: their social media feeds and stuff saying you know hey it's not it's not cool to do this

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_02]: is a problem you know it's not just like the olds you know saying hey kids don't do that

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_02]: that's not cool it's it's much more effective if if the voices speaking out against it are

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_02]: from within those same age group they are there are their peers yeah you know and it's

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_01]: the counter that is obviously a lot of extremists who reach out to young people are not too of a

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_01]: dissimilar age um if anything especially with the isis recruits you hear about how some of the

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_01]: people who went out and joined ices from the west were then used to recruit others

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_01]: um so yeah it i guess it's always healthy to try and think back to what it was like when

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: you're a teenager um and what it you know and how easy it is to feel a bit isolated

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and i guess the other thought i was just having is um sometimes the your child's friends um are

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of a kind of an interesting uh give you an interesting insight into maybe what your

[00:30:48] [SPEAKER_01]: child is thinking or their lack of friends too are they you know do they have any friends

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_02]: and if they don't that could be friends in real life yeah that's what i mean yeah social

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_02]: their entire social life is entirely virtual is entirely on these online spaces that is a

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_02]: harder to see i mean yeah i'm sure you know 99% of parents would feel pretty uncomfortable if you

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_02]: know isis members or neo-nazis knocked on the door and say hey can your kid come out and play

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_02]: that's not happening on social media you don't see that no no exactly and it's not that

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: obvious it's not like a man you're dressed as a nazi knocks on the door politely and asked

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_01]: that question or a man dressed like ozama bin laden's gonna turn up at your your the door

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_01]: asking for your son it doesn't work like that so right you don't even see it no and these groups

[00:31:32] [SPEAKER_01]: are smart as well i think the other thing people forget about extremist groups they're

[00:31:36] [SPEAKER_01]: intelligent they're smart um and they know how to hide in plain sight um and that's the thing

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_01]: so just to add to your stress levels listening you know um this is one of the facts of you

[00:31:49] [SPEAKER_01]: know of the world that we live in today is that there are these bad actors out there who

[00:31:53] [SPEAKER_01]: operate in in in plain sight and one has to be careful about it

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_02]: anything else you'd like to add to that i would just say that i think you know this is this

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_02]: is really hard to do this is really hard to to get our our arms around this yeah it would

[00:32:10] [SPEAKER_02]: be much easier if social media companies weren't designing their products to accelerate these

[00:32:16] [SPEAKER_02]: issues that would make it yeah we wouldn't have nearly as big of a problem yeah and it seems

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_02]: probably not that big of a fix i mean i say i've sat on here a couple times that um you know tech

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_02]: bros try to create the illusion of simplicity around issues they want to fix which usually

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_02]: translates to they want to make money off of it and they create the illusion of complexity

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_02]: around issues that um they don't really want to be bothered with you know oh it's really

[00:32:45] [SPEAKER_02]: hard to figure out this problem you know no it's not you just don't want to deal with it

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah well said well let's take a break and we'll be right back with our next story

[00:33:09] [SPEAKER_01]: right hello again so welcome back everybody so now we're going to look at the telegram founder

[00:33:15] [SPEAKER_01]: pavel durov who was arrested in france and um so i think it links quite nicely a little bit

[00:33:21] [SPEAKER_01]: to um what we were saying before because telegram has a bit of a reputation i'll put

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_01]: that way so um pavel durov who was born in 1984 in leningrad now st petersburg is a russian-born

[00:33:34] [SPEAKER_01]: tech entrepreneur who co-founded telegram with his brother nikolai in 2013 the app is known for

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_01]: its focus on encryption and privacy and it's amassed over 950 million users globally so a

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_01]: lot of people durov left russia after conflicts with the government regarding user data and durov

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_01]: resides in dubai and holds a dual citizenship with the u.a. and france telegram's popularity

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_01]: stems from its commitment to encryption and privacy with durov promising never to sell user

[00:34:08] [SPEAKER_01]: data or the platform itself however the app has faced criticism for not applying end-to-end

[00:34:15] [SPEAKER_01]: encryption by default and it has become a hub for extremism and criminal activities so despite

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_01]: telegram's effort to combat content like child abuse and terrorism the platform's hands-off

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_01]: moderation has made it more attractive to various groups including far-right movements

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and criminal syndicates so kind of pretty much backing up your last point in our last segment

[00:34:41] [SPEAKER_01]: there that this hands-off approach is letting all sorts of bad actors run amok on this

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_01]: platform with 950 million users so durov's recent arrest in france relates to the

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_01]: platform's failure to moderate harmful content particularly child abuse material

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_01]: french authorities including president emmanuel macron emphasized that the arrest was a legal

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_01]: matter not a political one the investigation is focused on telegram's lack of cooperation

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_01]: with law enforcement in addressing issues such as child pornography and organized crime telegram

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_01]: has defended itself stating that it hears that it adheres to content moderation practices aligned

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_01]: with industry standards and that durov frequently travels in europe the company maintains that

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_01]: neither durov nor the platform should be held accountable for the misuse of the app by its

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_01]: users so matt what are your thoughts on that especially that last point about the

[00:35:40] [SPEAKER_01]: platform not being held accountable for the misuses by its users i'm very interested in that

[00:35:45] [SPEAKER_02]: bit i have a point that i want to make there in a second but i don't um i don't really use

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_02]: telegram i i have it on my phone um i have an account on it i believe but i don't really

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_02]: ever use it no particular reason i just i just don't i just don't have a need to

[00:36:02] [SPEAKER_02]: um usually when i um speak to people overseas or something that you know is not

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_02]: quite you know fit for iMessage or something i just use i use signal personally i don't know

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_02]: if you do i believe it's i believe signal i believe telegram is a lot more popular

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_02]: overseas than it is um in the us i know for some people like if you look in russia and

[00:36:22] [SPEAKER_02]: ukraine parts of the middle east i mean telegram is like the entire way that they

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: communicate with the outside world like it is the internet for some people the way that

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_02]: whatsapp is for um a lot of people in like the developing world um i believe you know

[00:36:35] [SPEAKER_02]: that's like what they have as far as this uh you know whether it's an issue of like

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_02]: encryption or privacy or free speech or something i mean i've said on here before

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_02]: that i do believe that people have the right to to privacy and to have a space

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_02]: in the virtual world online where you know they are truly alone whether with themselves

[00:37:02] [SPEAKER_02]: or who they you know want to communicate with that said um facilitating crimes on a platform

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_02]: whether that's um selling arms uh organizing extremist groups and plots whether that's

[00:37:20] [SPEAKER_02]: sharing child pornography which definitely came up in this case on telegram with with

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Doroff that's different from free speech and i think that even is a level beyond just you

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_02]: know content moderation i mean that's the sort of thing that um i don't know after this

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_02]: arrest happened you had a lot of the usual suspects like Elon Musk and everything sort of

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_02]: you know come out and say oh you know they're going to be arrested too and executed next time

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_02]: go to france or whatever i'm like no this isn't this isn't about you like shut up yeah

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_02]: this this song is not about you this is again probably another one of those issues of tech

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_02]: bros who want to reap the war who want to reap the rewards of a free and open society

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_02]: without feeling that they have any any responsibility towards it yeah you know

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_02]: like if you if you created this this platform that is being used to traffic um child

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_02]: exploitative materials right and you just refused to um respond to law enforcement requests

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_02]: or anything to to to tackle this um i mean don't be surprised when they knock on your door

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_02]: know or when you walk off a private jet and they you know put handcuffs on your ass um i don't

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_02]: i don't feel that that has anything to do with with free speech with the um you know open

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_02]: sharing of of ideas i don't feel that has anything to do with one's right to privacy

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_02]: it's about um the facilitation of horrific crimes the coarsening of society um and a government's

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_02]: duty to its citizens to put a stop to it and if if you um by your refusal to help law enforcement

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_02]: get a grip on it essentially become an accessory to those crimes right and i think yeah if you

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_02]: that this is being done on your platform and you refuse to do anything to stop it or at least allow

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_02]: law enforcement to stop it you are an accessory to what's happening on those platforms and yeah i

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_02]: think it's entirely right that um that you would be uh punished for it i don't i don't um

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_02]: no one else to sort of say about it but yeah i think what what this is really about when

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_02]: comes to yet exploiting children selling arms um extremist groups organizing it has nothing to

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_02]: do with with with free speech and if you think that those that those issues fall under some

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_02]: category of free speech um i don't know what's telling you but you and i do not have the same

[00:40:06] [SPEAKER_01]: definition of free speech yeah yeah indeed yeah i think just going back to your earlier point

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of these tech bros i think that yeah they're all happy and i think this might be an issue of

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_01]: our age and hey maybe i might sound like an old man at this point but um there's a lot of

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_01]: people who enjoy the benefits of our society at the moment but want to take no effort at all

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_01]: in actually holding up the principles of our society or taking responsibility for things

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and i think people in the tech sector have been incredibly guilty of this is my feeling

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_02]: or want to delude themselves into believing that the billions that they have made that these huge

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_02]: global corporations that they have built is entirely just because they're really smart yeah

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_02]: they're so much smarter and so much better than anyone else and it has nothing to do with um

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_02]: the uh you know transoceanic fiber optic cables with the police and fire departments

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_02]: that will respond if their data center catches on fire you know with the decades of unprecedented

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_02]: global peace and prosperity that we have had in the post-war era that has allowed them to do

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_02]: these things and because of that you have an obligation to society yeah yeah exactly it's like

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_01]: i think on this society thing i think uh sometimes it's better to think of it on a

[00:41:27] [SPEAKER_01]: small scale it's like if you move into a new block of flats like you know where i live

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_01]: we now have like a whatsapp group where people can um kind of point out what isn't isn't working

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and then there's a concierge who then you know keeps an eye on that and there's a sense of

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_01]: accountability so if there's a light that's um broken you could go to the whatsapp group say

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_01]: a light block blah blah blah is broken and somebody will fix it and stuff like that and

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_01]: then there's a sort of general sense of like um you know how one should conduct yourself

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_01]: where we live so you don't like have music blaring at three in the morning or

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_01]: whatever um and that's sort of kind of uh keeping our little community kind of um civilized i

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_01]: suppose there's a certain right you know there are certain accepted rules en masse um and you

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_01]: know those who violate it kind of will get a warning not a lot happens to be honest but

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_01]: there but you know they accept that they have to adhere to a certain group of rules to

[00:42:26] [SPEAKER_01]: of

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_01]: do violate that from time to time it leads to moaning etc but that's the thing and i think

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_01]: so when you think about it on a bigger scale in a country as you just pointed out like all

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_01]: the the the roads the fire department all the emergency services the education you receive the

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_01]: fact that you live in a society that there isn't a generally an armed insurrection happening

[00:42:52] [SPEAKER_01]: every few years etc you don't have tanks rolling down to to london or washington to try and

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_01]: overthrow the government every few years you know that shouldn't be taken for granted

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and and i think sometimes an accident exactly exactly that was created you know by this is by

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_02]: our society and because of that you were able to be a multi-gigillionaire and build

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_02]: this you know massive tech platform it's not just it's not just you you are not the main

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_02]: character as much as you may want to believe you are you are not yeah exactly so i think

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_01]: tech bros you feel they're not you know that either too smart or whatever to concern themselves

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_01]: about society and those around them i think are just deluded um now back to our kind of um

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_01]: the platform itself i mean should the owner be held responsible for what people do on that

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_01]: platform um i i'm somewhere in the middle on that one because it's a bit like whoever invented

[00:43:50] [SPEAKER_01]: paper is then held responsible for everything people write on paper you can't be really but

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_01]: um but i think with regards to the platform itself obviously are is the platform doing

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_01]: everything it can to cooperate with the police etc with regards to criminal content like child

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_01]: pornography selling illegal weapons etc obviously when it gets into this sort of speech

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_01]: territory that's where it gets a bit murkier but a lot of the time it's not as murky as people

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_01]: make it out to be if somebody is just making hateful statements um and it's more like on on

[00:44:25] [SPEAKER_01]: you know on the broadcasting side of telegram or twitter etc where they're making you know

[00:44:30] [SPEAKER_01]: terrible statements about a particular group of people and demonizing etc that's a clear

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_01]: um that's not that's hate speech not free speech uh freedom of speech is more about oh

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_01]: think um xyz president sucks and they shouldn't be in um power anymore and right and the

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_01]: government's not going to come and knock on your door at three in the morning and say why

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_01]: did you send out this tweet about the president now if you threaten to kill the president that's

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_01]: a different matter but if you just say this president sucks and i don't believe in them

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_01]: and i don't know i'm going to vote for somebody else in the next election that's fine

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_01]: you know and we're very lucky that we live in a society at the moment where that is okay

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_01]: those things could change um and i think what makes that easier sometimes for people to change

[00:45:14] [SPEAKER_01]: is when then social media platforms don't take any responsibility for what's going on in the

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of bubble they've created the online space they've created for people to do things

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and then the other issue i have i think when people are in positions on twitter etc where

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_01]: they're in a kind of broadcaster mode now they're in a kind of position where they can

[00:45:35] [SPEAKER_01]: broadcast whatever they think to a lot of people and they can make claims tip the scales yeah

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_01]: that's where i think then the individual should be subject to scrutiny um and i think you know

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_01]: that's where you kind of get into this sort of territory of being a broadcaster and obviously

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_01]: broadcasters are subject to in the uk to offcom etc and we had an interesting thing

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_01]: recently where with the the riots that happened um some members of the public and even a member

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_01]: a member of parliament i believe um were charged and i can't remember the wording of the charge so

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_01]: i apologize because it happened whilst i was away on this buddhist retreat but they were

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_01]: charged for sharing inflammatory content online that was known to be um you know uh of no

[00:46:17] [SPEAKER_01]: substance but was designed to inflame sensitivities and incite this riot um so i don't know

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_01]: whether that's the future of things or not um but i don't think so with regards to doer of the

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_01]: rest i'm not really sure um you know door if he was arrested just for the company not taking

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_01]: enough action to deal with criminality i understand that but if he is being arrested for

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_01]: what other people are doing with regards to sharing their views and stuff then i think

[00:46:46] [SPEAKER_01]: that is quite a murky territory um and it's one it's a very fine line that one has to

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_01]: tread with things like this but i just don't think tech bros make it any easier because they

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_01]: take some most of the time take zero responsibility especially elon musk at the moment with the kind

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_01]: of content that's on their platform and if anything elon musk got out of his way to have

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_01]: more inflammatory content on his platform because again as we said earlier sensationalism

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_01]: sells and is all about engagement and the more you're online on twitter battling with whoever

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_01]: the the more you're engaged on the platform and the more you're spending time on it and the more

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_01]: your data is being sold the more advertisement you're subjected to i mean i don't know about

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_01]: you but my twitter i get random posts show up in my feed from people i don't even follow

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and i think some of that is uh pay for clicks etc so it's um yeah i don't use the um i don't

[00:47:39] [SPEAKER_02]: use on twitter the like the like for you page i don't use it because it's it's yeah it's

[00:47:46] [SPEAKER_02]: heavily tilted towards a lot of that stuff it just doesn't it doesn't bring me any value you know if

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_02]: i want to hear what someone is saying on that platform i'll follow them you know yeah exactly

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_02]: i don't know but i think is what you're saying about are the creators of these platforms

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_02]: responsible for the content on them i think if in the case of telegram if law enforcement

[00:48:07] [SPEAKER_02]: comes to you let's say yeah you you created this platform if law enforcement comes to you

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_02]: and says hey these groups on your platform are trading in materials that are exploitative of

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_02]: children um and you say okay and what do you um what do you want me to do about that you know

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_02]: because a free speech or whatever this is just a bulging board that i created you know like

[00:48:32] [SPEAKER_02]: then you are responsible for it you're sure to becoming an accessory to the continuation

[00:48:37] [SPEAKER_02]: of these crimes yeah you know yeah um and yeah i think it's it's fair game that law enforcement

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_02]: then you are standing in the way of law enforcement's ability to put a stop to it

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_02]: and if you're doing that they're gonna they're gonna go through you um and i think that's sort

[00:48:53] [SPEAKER_01]: of what what happened here to an extent yeah indeed one interesting thing that popped into

[00:48:58] [SPEAKER_01]: my mind as well which i forgot to mention was the fact that obviously telegram is popular

[00:49:04] [SPEAKER_01]: in russia and primarily it's popular for people who are against putin who are against the war

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and obviously then the dilemma is because the russian authorities consider that terrorism don't

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_01]: they um and obviously not all police forces and all law enforcement are equal and it's also used

[00:49:24] [SPEAKER_02]: by it's also used by the russian military and a lot of pro-kremlin forces as well i mean

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_02]: that's why yeah um that's why pablo pablo d'orop left russia for dubai because he refused to give

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_02]: um the fsb refused to give the kremlin a back door um into the system and now i i don't i don't

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_02]: know all the um it's announcements i believe there are some um doubts as to what sort of

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_02]: uh visibility russian security services have into um telegram but yeah it is sort of

[00:49:57] [SPEAKER_02]: interesting that it is used by both sides of the conflict quite extensively yeah no it's

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_01]: fascinating isn't it so yeah so it very complex issue but i think um there probably is some

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_01]: common sense ways to make it a little bit simpler um that uh yeah arresting the owner

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_01]: of the platform um is an interesting step and uh so we will see where that kind of goes really

[00:50:21] [SPEAKER_01]: i don't think there's anything else i'm going to add to that but is there anything

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_01]: else you want to add or are you happy with that nope okay good to move on well let's move on to

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_01]: us influences in the pay of russia which is a interesting one yeah so uh this is um this

[00:50:37] [SPEAKER_02]: sort of the article that we're talking about is from it's from the beginning of of september

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_02]: references a few raids that happened uh last month and um and a few other sort of actions

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_02]: are still sort of ongoing so very much sort of a moving target here this is from an article in

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_02]: the new york times by cvn lee meyers and julian barnes here's some key points from it last month

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_02]: the fbi rated the homes of two prominent american commentators with ties to the

[00:51:03] [SPEAKER_02]: russian government scott ritter and demetri signs as part of a broader investigation into

[00:51:08] [SPEAKER_02]: americans linked to russia's state television networks the inquiry the inquiry is aimed at

[00:51:14] [SPEAKER_02]: curbing foreign influence on the upcoming u.s presidential election focusing on potential

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_02]: violations of sanctions and lobbying laws u.s intelligence has identified efforts by russian

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_02]: state media such as rt to influence the november presidential election the kremlin's

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_02]: propaganda outlets are accused of supporting donald trump's candidacy and disseminating

[00:51:34] [SPEAKER_02]: information targeting president biden and vice president uh kamala harris the investigation

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_02]: raises legal and political questions particularly around free speech protections uh the targeting

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_02]: of individuals working with foreign state-run media organizations may intersect with first

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_02]: amendment rights complicated the jit complicating the justice department's case the investigation is

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_02]: centered on potential breaches of economic sanctions imposed on russia and violations of

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_02]: the foreign agents registration act or fara which requires americans to disclose lobbying

[00:52:06] [SPEAKER_02]: activities on behalf of foreign governments the justice department's crackdown reflects

[00:52:10] [SPEAKER_02]: growing concern within the biden administration about russian interference the investigation may

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_02]: lead to further searches and possible criminal charges although the scope and ultimate targets

[00:52:21] [SPEAKER_02]: remain clear so that's something that um so the two men here who are named scott

[00:52:25] [SPEAKER_02]: ritter and demetri signs they have not yet been charged with um anything but their

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_01]: homes were raided by the fbi yeah yeah indeed so u.s influences potentially in the pay of russia

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_01]: color me shocked um we've we've talked about this on the podcast before now um what we have

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_01]: talked about as well is russian state media and how it's different from western media so western

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_01]: media even the bbc isn't completely 100 state controlled like russian media is so outlets like

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_01]: russia today etc have zero independent editorial oversights they are controlled very tightly

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_01]: by the kremlin um and they have been for some time now and you know if you ever you know want

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_01]: to watch russia today you'll see very quickly it pushes a lot of pro kremlin and anti-western

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_01]: talking points and one crude thing i saw once was you see endless videos about how terrible

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_01]: americans are videos that really heighten the homeless issue or the failures of the vietnam war

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_01]: or i don't know failures in the war of terror or conspiracy theories about how

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_01]: the uh you know the the deep state are doing terrible things and then you'll see lots of

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_01]: like nature documentaries about russia and how wonderful the cooking is etc

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and so it's quite quickly as seen there's something not quite right with this picture

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_01]: here um and i did an episode on this podcast with dr chasagy doody back in late 2021 about

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_01]: russia today or rt pushes kremlin propaganda in the west and to me obviously this is a very well

[00:54:03] [SPEAKER_01]: known fact and one interesting thing about the commentary of what we're discussing is i'm surprised

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_01]: that there are some people out there today who are unaware that rt or russia today um is state

[00:54:13] [SPEAKER_01]: controlled and pushes propaganda it feels like some people have kind of missed the talking

[00:54:17] [SPEAKER_01]: points of 2020 and 2021 and we're kind of back in that place again um and there's an

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_01]: intelligence officers among the staff at these russian media outlets in the west

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_01]: oh absolutely and i bet there would be definitely and and it's like and even if it's not

[00:54:34] [SPEAKER_01]: the staff are actual active intelligence officers themselves they might well be

[00:54:40] [SPEAKER_01]: recruited assets or people um you know favorable people put in positions of power within those

[00:54:46] [SPEAKER_01]: organizations and with a fsb svr stroke gru handler to steer them and report back so

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_01]: me it's a little surprise that the russian government has sort of selected and targeted

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_01]: influencers maybe even hired presenters who you know sort of push certain talking points they like

[00:55:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and so what we're talking about at the moment with this particular case is it's being found

[00:55:09] [SPEAKER_01]: that it's people on the alt rights of american politics who are the ones in the pay

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_01]: of the kremlin now um these individuals some of the individuals who've been uh brought up have

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_01]: you know are saying that they're not aware that they were receiving russian money and that might

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_01]: well be the case they might not have been aware of it because usually this is where that term

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of useful idiot comes in so typically with an influence operation they don't just

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of happen naturally they have a bit of planning and russia have these departments that

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_01]: have studied you know the look at each target country and look at points of contention that

[00:55:47] [SPEAKER_01]: potentially be exploited by their propaganda efforts that you've been going on since the

[00:55:53] [SPEAKER_01]: cold war this in different ways so like how aids was considered secretly a bioweapon created

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_01]: by the cia in africa and stuff like that and these conspiracy theories are still believed today

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_01]: so what they do is they find these points of contention then they look at who's in that

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_01]: space these days who is online pushing those points and then they will find a way so with

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_01]: the particular case in question there was a media company that was formed that then

[00:56:20] [SPEAKER_01]: kind of hired these people in the alt right now the people on the alt right were working

[00:56:25] [SPEAKER_01]: for a company they didn't know that this company was a front for some out tenant media

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah that's it they didn't know that that's their tenant media receiving money from russia

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and to many expect uh many respects i doubt they ever would know that um but they were

[00:56:39] [SPEAKER_01]: hired by this company to kind of do what they do and obviously um they carry on doing their

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_01]: but there'll probably be some stories here or there editorially that might be pushed

[00:56:48] [SPEAKER_01]: their way or that they're naturally already talking in talking points such as anti-woke

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_01]: or you know being critical of the support of um western support of ukraine or being anti-nato

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_01]: etc that kind of just naturally align in and we've said this before russia today so russia

[00:57:07] [SPEAKER_01]: likes to present itself as this you know the savior of the white christian world so anti-woke

[00:57:12] [SPEAKER_01]: talking points are very popular uh both with a russian audience and an american audience on the

[00:57:17] [SPEAKER_01]: right uh so there's a lot of kind of common ground these days with that kind of area

[00:57:21] [SPEAKER_01]: so it doesn't surprise me at all that those influences did become kind of uh

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_01]: agents of influence without realizing it um and then with regards to scott ritter i don't know

[00:57:31] [SPEAKER_01]: if he is knowingly working for the russians or not but he definitely loves to push pro-russian

[00:57:38] [SPEAKER_01]: talking points and anti-western talking points and obviously the fbi know he's got a criminal record

[00:57:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and maybe that influenced their decision to search his house or not i don't know but it's um

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah he's a very murky character scott ritter well let me um so you're sort of about two

[00:57:54] [SPEAKER_02]: different sort of facets to what it seems like the department of justice is being

[00:57:58] [SPEAKER_02]: sort of really proactive i'm thankful for this being really proactive to call out these

[00:58:04] [SPEAKER_02]: russian attempts to sort of influence the conversation around um our election so uh the

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_02]: two uh the the two men who had their homes raided by the fbi recently so scott ritter

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_02]: who i'm sure is somewhat at least known to many of our listeners he's sort of been

[00:58:25] [SPEAKER_02]: around in this space for a while he's a former marine corps intelligence officer

[00:58:32] [SPEAKER_02]: un weapons inspector um he's been charged twice with attempting to contact underage girls

[00:58:39] [SPEAKER_02]: online so not a very nice guy i feel very comfortable saying that um he's also been

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_02]: outspoken on rush like on russian state on on rt on russian tv itself um as sort of the

[00:58:53] [SPEAKER_02]: you know kremlin's token uh american who will say that you know u.s foreign policy is the

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_02]: of all evil in the world and you know putin's right to call ukrainians nazis etc that sort of

[00:59:04] [SPEAKER_02]: thing um dimitri's sign is probably a bit um less known so he was born to uh prominent soviet

[00:59:11] [SPEAKER_02]: human rights lawyers he emigrated to the u.s um in the 70s and from 1994 to 2022

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_02]: he headed up a think tank called the center for the national insurance who's actually picked by

[00:59:24] [SPEAKER_02]: um richard nixon who founded the center to to lead it back uh in the 90s um

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_02]: sims was named over a hundred times in the muller report um and helped arrange trump's 2016

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_02]: april 2016 speech at the mayflower hotel in dc where he sort of outlined a much

[00:59:45] [SPEAKER_02]: um uh a newer vision of u.s foreign policy that was much cozier to the russians of course

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_02]: um then sort of as part of the doj pushing back against this um but somewhat a bit sort of a

[01:00:01] [SPEAKER_02]: different scheme that they revealed so you were just talking about uh tenant media this um

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_02]: production company i guess uh that was taking money from um from russia today i believe

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_02]: um and so they had hired tenant media had hired a bunch of like you know right wing uh influencers

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_02]: far right right wing uh influences for like benny johnson dave rubin tim pool to produce um

[01:00:33] [SPEAKER_02]: basically videos on their youtube channels that were like straight up parroting pro kremlin

[01:00:37] [SPEAKER_02]: talking points and of course when this was revealed a lot of them said you know oh i had

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_02]: no idea where the money was coming from i didn't know that i was working on behalf of

[01:00:45] [SPEAKER_02]: russia state tv um i mean they were making serious money like a hundred like 400 000

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_02]: dollars a month to produce like one video a week which i don't know i would i would love

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_02]: maybe not to take that money from the russian government but if there's anyone else out

[01:01:02] [SPEAKER_02]: there with the pockets and really loves what we do that much um that you know uh yeah call

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_02]: us um maybe if you don't work on behalf of the austral farm government but um so that's

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_02]: so we have examples of someone like scott ritter and demetrius sign who are like sort of it seems

[01:01:22] [SPEAKER_02]: knowingly working on behalf of russian state tv which would you know violate um sanctions

[01:01:27] [SPEAKER_02]: so like the u.s government doesn't recognize uh russia today as a news organization it's like

[01:01:33] [SPEAKER_02]: a state you know lobbying arm of the russian government right so to work for them would

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_02]: you know potentially be a violation of the of farah they're not registering as foreign agents

[01:01:44] [SPEAKER_02]: whereas you know these guys like david and benny johnson tim pool and the tenant media thing

[01:01:49] [SPEAKER_02]: they so they say um did not know where where the money was was was coming from

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's part of a much um you know broader effort to for by the russians to influence

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_02]: our politics both through covert and overt means um and it seems like this time around the doj

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_02]: isn't really afraid to um name and shame and and push back on it even if that's to

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_02]: even if that involves you know kicking down doors and bringing charges potentially

[01:02:19] [SPEAKER_02]: i mean i think back in 2016 it was famously like they saw these efforts but were sort of

[01:02:26] [SPEAKER_02]: um afraid to be seen as partisan to state the obvious that all of these efforts were

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_02]: in were toward the benefit of one political party and specifically one candidate of that

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_02]: party it seems like we've at least you know thankfully a decade later pretty much learned

[01:02:44] [SPEAKER_01]: our learned our lesson yeah yeah that previous situation was a massive mistake um so yeah but

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_01]: there we go so i'm just a reminder so that obviously the goal of russia and other

[01:02:55] [SPEAKER_01]: autocratic governments such as china is to undermine democracy and throw the whole idea

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: of it into question and russia and china use influence campaigns online to spread

[01:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: disinformation that causes us to doubt our own political systems and to fight amongst ourselves

[01:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: with the goal to weaken us so yeah that's the kind of thing that's sort of going on in our

[01:03:15] [SPEAKER_01]: information space at the moment so one has to be very very cautious so um yeah i'm i'm sadly

[01:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: not surprised that something's come out and you know you might find um people the other

[01:03:27] [SPEAKER_01]: side of political spectrum too the kind of anti-war side of things who've also been very

[01:03:31] [SPEAKER_01]: NATO and anti-western support for ukraine we may have some information that comes out about them

[01:03:37] [SPEAKER_01]: in the near future as well so we will we will see um so yeah no side of the political spectrum

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_01]: is uh um is free from from this risk really no yeah no absolutely no um was there anything else

[01:03:51] [SPEAKER_01]: to add matt were you happy with that no i'm good i'm good with that cool onto the

[01:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: last one yeah so um let's just take our second break and then we'll be right back

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_01]: we are back so um we're now going to look at our final piece which is about the heads of mi6

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and the cia appearing on stage together for the financial times in the uk and well i had

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_01]: some serious uh fomo uh with this it's funny enough um that financial times event i did look

[01:04:35] [SPEAKER_01]: at an advert for a few weeks ago now the talk itself in our defense and my defense was

[01:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: totally um it was a surprise so i you know if i'd got a ticket i would have no idea that they were

[01:04:45] [SPEAKER_01]: going to show up um but it was quite an expensive event to go to so um that's sort of what put me

[01:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: off going um so i don't know i'll have to now keep a close eye on these things or reach out

[01:04:56] [SPEAKER_01]: to these organizations and see if we can somehow cover events like this but uh but anyway

[01:05:00] [SPEAKER_01]: the uh so um the head of mi6 and the cia so sir richard morrow's c who's the head of the mi6

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and william burns who's the director of the cia um were together on stage and they've warned that

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: the international order faces a significant threat comparable to the cold war they highlighted the

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: ongoing war in ukraine and an assertive russia under president putin's key concerns

[01:05:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and both countries the uk and u.s stand united in resisting this aggression the intelligence

[01:05:29] [SPEAKER_01]: chiefs revealed that they have foreseen the ukraine conflict and had shared classified

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_01]: information with the international community to support kiev um so yeah i remember a while back

[01:05:40] [SPEAKER_01]: um a lot of people kept saying that the war in ukraine was a massive intelligence failure on the

[01:05:46] [SPEAKER_01]: u.s's part it's like not really because america have done a lot to be um keep an eye on what

[01:05:52] [SPEAKER_01]: russia are up to and be warning their allies and and ukraine and how even in the summer

[01:05:56] [SPEAKER_01]: before the invasion i saw you twos were you know flying around the area keeping an eye on

[01:06:02] [SPEAKER_01]: as were global hawks etc uh thanks to flight radar um so no no there's definitely not an

[01:06:08] [SPEAKER_01]: intelligence failure on the western part i think there was on the russian part because they

[01:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: thought that this war would be uh winnable in a very short space of time but that's a whole

[01:06:17] [SPEAKER_01]: other matter um the heads of mi5 and i'm sorry mi6 and the cia then went on to discuss

[01:06:24] [SPEAKER_01]: efforts to disrupt disrupt russian sabotage in europe and address tensions in the israel gaza

[01:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: conflict and counter terrorism and particularly the resurgence of the islamic state at the public

[01:06:37] [SPEAKER_01]: appearance at the ft weekend festival burns acknowledged ukraine's recent gains in the

[01:06:43] [SPEAKER_01]: russian territory as a tactical victory but said that putin's grip on power remains firm

[01:06:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and uh mi6's head said not to confuse i'll just find it here a firm grip with a stable

[01:06:58] [SPEAKER_01]: so that's a interesting observation there and then beyond ukraine both intelligence services

[01:07:04] [SPEAKER_01]: see china as the main geopolitical challenge of the century and they have reorganized their

[01:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: agencies to prioritize china whilst also working to de-escalate conflicts in the middle east

[01:07:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and you know including efforts towards a ceasefire between israel and hamas so matt what

[01:07:21] [SPEAKER_02]: are your thoughts on this one yeah i was um traveling most of the day yesterday so i

[01:07:26] [SPEAKER_02]: have time to watch this whole video through i think it was just it was um good to see

[01:07:33] [SPEAKER_02]: good to see them together on the stage certainly very very rare i'm unaware of at least in a

[01:07:39] [SPEAKER_02]: public setting where they where they've done this before no we had burns gave a speech last

[01:07:44] [SPEAKER_01]: year in uk but he was alone um and i think the only comparable events the ones they've

[01:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: done at each other's headquarters so far so i think this is i believe this is a historic

[01:07:53] [SPEAKER_01]: first having both on stage um yeah i'm massively different from the past i'm happy to see them

[01:08:00] [SPEAKER_02]: i'm happy to see the heads of these intelligence agencies at least taking more of a public

[01:08:04] [SPEAKER_02]: facing role um i think it's ultimately probably to the benefit of the public's perception

[01:08:12] [SPEAKER_02]: of these organizations and what they actually do that that the public is able to see them

[01:08:18] [SPEAKER_02]: and to hear them talk about these issues you know that they're not just sort of these like

[01:08:22] [SPEAKER_02]: faceless nameless um organizations that you know you would watch any number of very silly

[01:08:30] [SPEAKER_02]: movies or something and think that they're like these omnipotent like evil forces in the world

[01:08:33] [SPEAKER_02]: so i'm good to see i'm glad to see them um speaking to the to the public more about

[01:08:40] [SPEAKER_02]: these issues um i mean i think they're definitely right i don't know that we are

[01:08:44] [SPEAKER_02]: in another cold war yet with that new sort of like authoritarian axis between you know china

[01:08:53] [SPEAKER_02]: russia north korea iran um etc but we're definitely moving towards there i think the way

[01:09:01] [SPEAKER_02]: that you know um the cold war uh between the u.s and the soviet union sort of dominated

[01:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: the latter half of the 20th century and probably you know most of the adult lives of you know

[01:09:16] [SPEAKER_02]: the generation before us um i think this will be the the geopolitical struggle that dominates

[01:09:23] [SPEAKER_02]: ours um i don't i don't i think this is just sort of like a new normal that we're in like

[01:09:28] [SPEAKER_02]: i've said here before that i think like the 90s at least where there was no great

[01:09:34] [SPEAKER_02]: political competition was an aberration um and to look at that as something that was sustainable

[01:09:42] [SPEAKER_02]: indefinitely you know like the end of history you know this is where it's going to be forever

[01:09:46] [SPEAKER_02]: now haha we won i think it's just born of just um uh arrogance and a lack of imagination

[01:09:54] [SPEAKER_02]: and i think the world is definitely reverting back to what is probably the actual norm which

[01:10:00] [SPEAKER_02]: is geostrategic competition between between the great powers of the time and um for at

[01:10:07] [SPEAKER_02]: least for now it's um between uh small d democracies and and autocracies indeed indeed

[01:10:16] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah well no um i i thought the event was very positive so to your point about um it being

[01:10:22] [SPEAKER_01]: um be sort of public facing i suppose not to reassure the public but just to give an interest

[01:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: give a bit more transparency so richard moore said that this event was as much about earning

[01:10:32] [SPEAKER_01]: your license to operate in a democracy as anything else and then um was it that's great

[01:10:37] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah i thought so and then the uh the interviewer jokingly asked is this a recruitment

[01:10:43] [SPEAKER_01]: drive you know and they sort of chuckled along about it um and i think there is an

[01:10:47] [SPEAKER_01]: element of that too um i also noticed the two chiefs looked very relaxed each other's

[01:10:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and director burns's body language was very positive and pointing towards richard moore

[01:10:57] [SPEAKER_01]: because when i um studied acting it's an interesting thing about watching how people

[01:11:02] [SPEAKER_01]: cross their legs if somebody crosses their leg away from someone in the opposite direction

[01:11:07] [SPEAKER_01]: then this shows a bit of defensiveness but i noticed director burns crossed his leg pointing

[01:11:12] [SPEAKER_01]: towards richard moore which indicates comfort and you know respect and and um you know just

[01:11:17] [SPEAKER_01]: generally relaxed in his company um and um so i think if anything yeah this event gave a bit

[01:11:23] [SPEAKER_01]: of a vibe check about the two directors and showed that they didn't come across as these

[01:11:28] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of machiavellian jason born villainous cia people um and if anything as well one other

[01:11:34] [SPEAKER_01]: point they brought up was about the sort of humanitarian side of what they do um and

[01:11:39] [SPEAKER_01]: certainly with these two individuals it did feel like that was quite important and director

[01:11:42] [SPEAKER_01]: burns as we talked about before has been very busy on touring around the world and all the

[01:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: trouble spots negotiating with the taliban negotiating basically the secretary of state

[01:11:52] [SPEAKER_01]: yeah yeah which has caused some controversy i had a guest a while back saying that why is the

[01:11:57] [SPEAKER_01]: director of the cia doing that not um uh entony blinken or something so yeah they're able to

[01:12:07] [SPEAKER_02]: they're able to speak to people um in a way that is not entirely public facing right

[01:12:15] [SPEAKER_02]: they're able to move around a lot quiet a lot more quietly yeah then perhaps the secretary of

[01:12:21] [SPEAKER_02]: state is with this you know big bubble that follows them around um there's also people that

[01:12:27] [SPEAKER_02]: aren't too savory whether it be you know hamas um you know in any example of these

[01:12:34] [SPEAKER_02]: negotiations around the ceasefire and the haas's deal that um we we need to speak to or to be

[01:12:42] [SPEAKER_02]: able to have conversations whether that's through an intermediary or something that um that the cia

[01:12:48] [SPEAKER_02]: or or mi6 or one of these intelligence services is sort of naturally predisposed to do well

[01:12:54] [SPEAKER_02]: yeah um that they and there is uh between professional intelligence officers in these

[01:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: services there is sort of a um a respect and ability to to speak bluntly that can be um

[01:13:11] [SPEAKER_01]: constructive around these around these things yeah indeed well yeah it does because you know

[01:13:16] [SPEAKER_01]: espionage is an extension of diplomacy and people sometimes forget that part and so it

[01:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: does enable these sort of uh backroom discussions that um are not policy making

[01:13:25] [SPEAKER_01]: discussions either if anything again it's sort of a vibe check and obviously then you have

[01:13:30] [SPEAKER_01]: your spies you can confirm uh what somebody just said to you or what somebody's been saying

[01:13:35] [SPEAKER_01]: to the president etc and confirm whether that's actually believed or whether it's even true

[01:13:40] [SPEAKER_01]: so it's it's um yeah it's very interesting that so it all helps with sort of negotiations and

[01:13:45] [SPEAKER_01]: and build that sort of just the geopolitical picture uh with a degree of sort of clarity

[01:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: so yeah and one other thing that came up which was kind of interesting was um about the cia and

[01:13:57] [SPEAKER_01]: sis or mi6's cooperation and on the special relationship see richard moore talked about

[01:14:03] [SPEAKER_01]: how both um both agencies do share more information between themselves than they do

[01:14:11] [SPEAKER_01]: with any other agency because of the high levels of trust between the cia and sis and he also

[01:14:17] [SPEAKER_01]: mentioned that there are some operational opportunities that both agencies would look

[01:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: at and they would um use they would ask who is best placed to handle that opportunity using

[01:14:28] [SPEAKER_01]: what is known as the best athlete model which is just basically who is best placed to go after

[01:14:33] [SPEAKER_01]: that opportunity in a non-competitive way so um i thought that was very interesting um and yeah i

[01:14:42] [SPEAKER_01]: know it was brilliant talk and uh obviously they can't share everything of substance but you can

[01:14:47] [SPEAKER_01]: i just think with talks like that are quite good just so you can get a sense of the people

[01:14:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and just know what that person's sort of temperament is like um and you know there

[01:14:57] [SPEAKER_01]: were quite a few uh left field questions thrown at them some funny some not um and i think uh i

[01:15:03] [SPEAKER_01]: think richard moore handled those a bit better than director burns sometimes but but uh he doesn't

[01:15:08] [SPEAKER_02]: seem like a very um i don't know bubbly kind of no bubbly kind of yeah guy who would be throwing

[01:15:15] [SPEAKER_02]: jokes around and stuff but i mean that's fine it seems very business orientated but in a very

[01:15:20] [SPEAKER_01]: sort of polite sort of non-aggressive way so yeah yeah yeah yes that's us done for this

[01:15:27] [SPEAKER_01]: episode um so thank you very much everybody for listening we're going to move on to extra

[01:15:32] [SPEAKER_01]: shot and there'll be a link in the description for that and also as i mentioned at the top of

[01:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: the show we've got this ongoing survey that will end um this month and so if you want to

[01:15:42] [SPEAKER_01]: participate in that survey and just give us um give us your thoughts on the show it's anonymous

[01:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: so you know just click on the link in the show notes to the survey and you get taken

[01:15:52] [SPEAKER_01]: straight there and it takes probably only a couple of minutes really independent yeah i mean

[01:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: most of the questions are open so it really is down to how much you want to to say really

[01:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: but it's quite a quick uh survey i think um and it's just helping us um you know understand what

[01:16:07] [SPEAKER_01]: works well and if there's anything we need to kind of improve on uh any tweaks that we can

[01:16:13] [SPEAKER_01]: make going forward or are there any particular topics that we haven't covered yet there's

[01:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: that some come up a couple of times there's been um there's a very much an interest for

[01:16:22] [SPEAKER_01]: some non-five eyes stuff as well so we're going to look into that you know we uh we're

[01:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: see what we can do on that front and uh and deliver on that so yeah so our goal really is you know

[01:16:32] [SPEAKER_01]: we want to make uh season nine the strongest ever and as we're saying before we are slowly

[01:16:37] [SPEAKER_01]: transitioning into video and paying a bit more attention to us our neglected uh youtube

[01:16:42] [SPEAKER_01]: channel and again i apologize to for that neglect um but we are going to be correcting

[01:16:46] [SPEAKER_01]: that over this this year coming forward so uh so thank you again everybody for listening

[01:16:51] [SPEAKER_01]: and we will catch you on extra shot take care thank you thanks for listening this is secrets and spies