S8 Ep47: London Met Murder Investigation Team with Steven Keogh

[00:00:01] Due to the themes of this podcast listener discretion is advised

[00:00:07] Lock your doors close the blinds change your passwords. This is secrets and spies

[00:00:27] Secrets and spies is a podcast that dives into the world of espionage

[00:00:31] Terrorism geopolitics and intrigue this podcast is produced and hosted by Chris Carr on today's podcast

[00:00:38] I'm joined by retired detective Stephen Keough who was a DI in the

[00:00:43] Metropolitan Police and he spent 30 years at Scotland Yard and 15 of those years he spent

[00:00:49] Investigating murders. He's written a fantastic book called murder investigation team

[00:00:53] And he joins me today to discuss how the British police investigate murders and how that's different from

[00:01:00] Popular fiction and also how murders are investigated in America

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[00:01:53] Stephen welcome to the podcast. How you doing? Hi Chris. Yeah, thanks for having me on I'm doing really well. Thank you. Excellent

[00:01:59] Well for the benefit of listeners, please can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and your career in the police?

[00:02:04] Yeah, so I'm Steve Keough. I spent 30 years in the police. I retired from

[00:02:10] Investigating murder was my last job. I did that for the last 12 years of my career. I retired as a detective inspector

[00:02:17] I spent most of my career as a detective. I spent a bit of time dealing with terrorism in

[00:02:23] sort of the early 2000s

[00:02:25] But when I landed on mode investigation, it was like it always sounds corny when I say this

[00:02:31] But it was it was like my calling. I just I found the thing that I was almost born for I loved it

[00:02:37] I really enjoyed investigating murder. So once I got there and I never left I stayed there to the end of my career

[00:02:43] Yeah, yeah

[00:02:44] Well, you're not the first person to have sort of said that they found a kind of calling with investigating murders

[00:02:51] I think there is a sense among murder police

[00:02:54] I think across the world that there's a sense of sort of speaking for the dead and finding justice for people

[00:02:58] I don't know if you found that completely hundred percent. Yeah

[00:03:03] That's what you're there for you

[00:03:04] your motivation is to get justice for that for that victim and their families and

[00:03:10] It's not easy being a murder detective and it has an impact on you personally in your life, etc

[00:03:15] but those times where you get those convictions at court make it all worthwhile and

[00:03:20] Just to be there for the family. You're never going to get their loved one back

[00:03:22] but if you can just give them that I call it almost a gift the gift of

[00:03:28] justice for their relative

[00:03:30] Justice for the person they've lost but also the ability to then kind of move on in their grieving process

[00:03:35] We all lose people but generally we can move on but when murders involved and you've got an outstanding outstanding court case

[00:03:42] You're in a kind of a limbo and it's a it's a really difficult place for families to be and just to be part of

[00:03:48] Being able to help them through that. It's such a rewarding job

[00:03:52] Yeah, how did you end up investigating murders? And if I may what was it like investigating death on a daily basis?

[00:03:59] There's not exactly a cheery subject

[00:04:01] Yeah, so I quickly realized in the police what it was that motivated me and

[00:04:07] Essentially was catching bad guys. That's what I like doing. I like going after criminals even in uniform

[00:04:12] I would come on duty and pick my car keys up go out and I'd go out on a hunt for criminals

[00:04:18] It's just what I really enjoyed and that kind of drags you down the route of being a detective

[00:04:22] so if you're motivated by catching criminals, the natural progression is to become a detective and

[00:04:28] If you follow that route

[00:04:30] Further you you're always wanting to catch the more serious criminals. So you start off investigating

[00:04:36] robberies burglaries serious assaults then

[00:04:40] sexual offenses

[00:04:42] Shootings and it caught you so it's sort of a natural progression and you can't get any more serious to murder

[00:04:47] So it was always going to happen and it's just a case of when I got there. I'll just realize actually

[00:04:52] Yeah, this this is for me was the pinnacle of my career and I couldn't really see myself doing anything else

[00:04:57] Certainly not getting that job satisfaction doing anything else

[00:05:00] Yeah, no, but so the base of our chat today is gonna be around your excellent book murder investigation team

[00:05:06] Why did you decide to write that book? I didn't decide to write that book funny enough

[00:05:11] I decided to write a completely different book could have morphed into that book

[00:05:14] Yeah

[00:05:14] So when I left the police what my intention was and this hasn't happened on my career is going completely different direction

[00:05:21] What my intention was I think you learned some skills in murder investigation

[00:05:24] There are completely transferable to business in terms of decision making problem solving

[00:05:32] Teamwork that kind of thing

[00:05:34] so I decided it if you're gonna pose I've got everything I read when I was leaving the place if you want to position yourself

[00:05:39] As an expert write a book so I started to write the book that addressed that so this is what we do in murder

[00:05:46] Investigations and this is how it can help your business, but it was trying to be two different things

[00:05:52] So I thought well, I think I should probably do and no one had ever actually done it a stranger

[00:05:56] But I didn't realize at the time is let's firstly write a book of how murder investigated

[00:06:01] But then it's a little people in business aren't gonna want to read that who's gonna read that

[00:06:06] So it kind of dragged me down a route where I end up writing for true crime fans

[00:06:10] And everything I've done since has followed that and it was completely accidental

[00:06:14] Had no intention of doing things I've done since I retired

[00:06:18] Well, you've done very well. Can you talk to us about the definition of murder and how it's different from homicide?

[00:06:24] Yes, so homicide is like the catch-all for all the offenses in relating to

[00:06:31] unlawful unlawful killing so for instance

[00:06:35] You got murder

[00:06:36] man slaughter

[00:06:38] corporate manslaughter

[00:06:39] Man slaughtered by diminished responsibility all the all these all these offenses

[00:06:44] Come under the umbrella of homicide whereas murder is a very specific and murder is essentially if you

[00:06:53] Intentionally take somebody's life or if you intend to seriously harm them and they die you can you commit murder

[00:07:00] That's but that's the basics of it

[00:07:02] There's a very wordy definition go through but it's it's quite an old

[00:07:07] Old world type law and it refers to

[00:07:11] The fact has to be a human being that's taken a breath and the person has to be saying it's quite wordy

[00:07:16] But essentially if you if you if you intend to kill someone and they die or if you intend to hurt somebody

[00:07:22] Seriously, and they die you commit murder. Yeah, I remember in your book. It is very wordy the definition

[00:07:28] I can't recite it myself

[00:07:29] But it was it was some very strange sort of old language that and I'm surprised it hasn't sort of been semi updated

[00:07:37] Yeah

[00:07:38] It's common law. So colonel has been around since forever as that. Yeah. Yeah

[00:07:44] Well, can you explain how a murder investigation team is structured and how that differs from the popular depiction of a single detective?

[00:07:52] With a partner investigating a murder. Yeah, no fully understand why they do this but in fictional crime

[00:07:57] They will focus in on on a lead detective and like I say, they probably have a partner with him

[00:08:02] I mean the worst one is Luther. I mean, that's the worst TV I've ever seen

[00:08:09] I've said that a few times now. So if Idris Elba ever bumps into me, you might punch me on the nose, but

[00:08:15] Murders are investigated by team

[00:08:17] Yeah

[00:08:17] and a murder investigation team in the UK consists generally of around 25 detectives of

[00:08:23] All the ranks down from detective chief inspector. So you'd have one detective chief inspector

[00:08:28] Two detective inspectors for detective sergeants and roughly 18 detective constables and

[00:08:34] Their jobs are all very different. So I

[00:08:37] Use a an analogy of a car

[00:08:40] So in a car the engine that drives it that makes the end the car work. They're the detective constables

[00:08:46] They're the ones that do the actual what we would consider

[00:08:49] Detective work the arrests searches

[00:08:52] Interviews speaking to witnesses, that's the detective constables

[00:08:56] Detective sergeants I refer to them as like the pedals

[00:08:59] so they're regulating the engine making sure it's working properly and

[00:09:03] The the DIs and the DC eyes are like the steering wheel

[00:09:07] They're seeing up top saying which direction the car is going to go in. So that's what the analogy I like to use

[00:09:12] So so that's not portrayed in

[00:09:15] Fiction and I do understand why because it would get very confusing if you were reading a

[00:09:20] Crime novel, you know 25 different characters all do different things

[00:09:24] It'd be very confusing so I can understand why they distill it down into a couple of people

[00:09:28] But the reality is it's it's a team of detectives all with their own tasks within a murder investigation

[00:09:34] But then all sort of coming together where team meetings etc. Really important bringing everything they found together

[00:09:41] So to build up that case against the the killer the only TV shows that come to mind

[00:09:46] I feel done a reasonable job of depicting it from what you described would be prime suspect

[00:09:51] Which is a bit old now and then that Martin Clunes it manhunts. I don't know if you've seen that one

[00:09:55] I don't your thoughts on I've not seen man

[00:09:58] I'm but dummy is based on Colin Sutton's book, isn't it? So you would you would expect that to be

[00:10:05] More realistic and and that's not actually fiction. It's a what? I don't know what you call that

[00:10:10] Docu. Yes

[00:10:12] Wow, is this of a dramatized that yes realized of drama of a yeah. Yeah, it's a drama around real-life situation. Yeah, so

[00:10:20] I get it. I do understand that readers need to

[00:10:24] Will be more focused on the story rather than trying to understand when I I don't I don't read anything to do with crime

[00:10:30] I read

[00:10:32] Game of Thrones. I love the Game of Thrones books. Yeah, and George RR Martin loves a character. So if something's very difficult

[00:10:39] Trying to keep up with who all the different people are they fit in? Yeah. Yeah, that's that's one thing on a George RR

[00:10:45] Martin, but you don't need to be doing that on a crime fiction novel

[00:10:48] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I suppose that's one interesting question comes in my mind is how

[00:10:53] You're investigating obviously dark things the daily basis

[00:10:56] Are there any things that you've done personally like you mentioned watch Game of Thrones the void crime fiction

[00:11:02] Are there ways of coping do you turn to like other fiction?

[00:11:07] Otherworldly as a way of coping with that not sure if it's coping as much as when you

[00:11:12] Invested or you when you invest when you investigate in a murder it takes over your life

[00:11:16] So you already spend in long hours at work anyway

[00:11:20] but you can't switch off when you get home certainly those early stages where the case hasn't been solved and

[00:11:26] You're trying to think of all the avenues that you you could go down and what am I missing?

[00:11:32] We do

[00:11:33] Who could who could we but there's so many different things running through your mind

[00:11:37] So when you get home and you're with your family, even though you're interacting with your family and your kids

[00:11:41] It's still there in your mind. You go to bed. You're still thinking about it

[00:11:45] so for me the escapism of watching something that was so I would watch science fiction or

[00:11:51] Game of Thrones something or a zombie thing something that's taking you so far out of the world that you're

[00:11:57] Always in that you you can forget about it

[00:12:00] The last thing I would want to do is switch a telly on and watch someone else investigated a murder

[00:12:05] I couldn't I couldn't think of anything worse. You need to get away from that. So you're not an inspector Morse fan

[00:12:15] So going through your book, can you talk to us about the

[00:12:18] importance of crime scenes and how they are processed and what a murder investigation team is trying to establish from them because obviously

[00:12:25] In fiction we we sometimes see people just dressed in their regular clothes

[00:12:29] But from what I understand you'd obviously have to wear protective suits and things like that when investigating a murder

[00:12:34] Yeah, I've got to be honest Chris. That's one of the things I find the hardest when I'm watching

[00:12:38] TV is that what you often see as well is so that you'll have the the forensic team in there and they're in there

[00:12:44] We call it full barrier clothing. So a paper suit mask gloves overshoes, etc

[00:12:50] They're all in there correctly as they should be and then the detective will walk in in a suit

[00:12:54] And see a gun or something pick it up with a pen that he's been chewing ten minutes before and it

[00:13:01] Again, I understand why because the last thing they want is people getting confused

[00:13:05] Who's who because they've all got these masks on that they can't tell who is there's a good scene in the film hot fuzz

[00:13:09] Where yeah

[00:13:12] What's his name Simon Pegg goes into a scene and his girlfriends there and he's talking to a man because he doesn't know

[00:13:18] So I can get that completely you wouldn't know who's who with those suits on so I can see what I do it

[00:13:23] But from from a from a detective's point of view when you're watching that it does it greats on you

[00:13:30] It really does so crime scenes

[00:13:32] Forensics are so important nowadays to murder investigations fingerprints DNA blood pattern analysis

[00:13:39] There's some there's so much can be drawn from a crime scene

[00:13:42] So essentially what you what you're trying to do is you need to keep that crime scene as

[00:13:48] The integrity of it is so important

[00:13:51] That's why as soon as a murder happens an error is called and often the only people that would go in there are those that

[00:13:57] Are wearing that full barrier clothing and only those that need to be in there and the reason being it's very easy to introduce

[00:14:03] DNA into a scene. It's very easy to bring it out

[00:14:06] You can destroy evidence

[00:14:08] And what you're trying to do you're trying to recreate as much as you can from that crime scene to tell you the story of

[00:14:13] What has happened who has been here?

[00:14:15] What has happened in in this murder not just how someone died, but the circumstances around it. Was there a fire?

[00:14:22] Well, were they interacting in a way that could lead us to identify them for instance?

[00:14:26] I think we're like drinking where they were they in a particular position where we could target our

[00:14:32] forensic examinations

[00:14:34] so

[00:14:35] The integrity of the scene is so important for that and as soon as somebody goes in and starts to destroy it

[00:14:41] You're losing your evidence

[00:14:41] It makes it harder at court to get a conviction because the defense will then start to attack your evidence and will let you

[00:14:48] Somebody else has brought this DNA in or cetera. So for it, so I always I always refer back to Luther. I saw the scene and

[00:14:56] It was he walked into a crime scene for some reason. It was a dead dog. I didn't watch the whole of the

[00:15:03] Episodes, I don't know why the dog was dead but he walked in and he had like a

[00:15:08] Junior his partner with him. He was a sergeant or something and

[00:15:12] He was in his suit and that exact same scenario

[00:15:14] Everyone else is in in the full barricade in Luther walks in and he says to his partner

[00:15:19] He might want to keep your hands in your pockets. I so you don't touch anything. I think it might you just walk through blood

[00:15:26] You're then gonna bet 10 20 minutes later

[00:15:28] You're gonna be walking into the suspect's house with blood from that dog on your shoes

[00:15:32] And forensic examination of that house is going to suggest that the suspect has been at this crime scene because blood there

[00:15:39] But you brought it there yourself. So it's that kind of thing

[00:15:42] You cut as soon as you don't follow the rules

[00:15:45] The defense will just absolutely rip apart any case you build and and that's and that's what I get frustrated about

[00:15:54] Yeah, I can imagine that one other thing that popped in my mind as well as your Channing was

[00:15:58] Intrigued by you talked a little bit about some like your techniques of like understanding a crime scene

[00:16:03] so one of the ones was you talked about standing in a doorway of a room and sort of scanning to see what was

[00:16:09] Should be there and shouldn't be there and also

[00:16:12] Going back to the crime scene like a day or two afterwards at the same sort of time

[00:16:17] The murder took place and everything you also talk about that. Yeah, so I

[00:16:22] Am a big fan of standing still

[00:16:26] It may sound stupid

[00:16:27] So many detectives don't do this. They're rushing around the court up

[00:16:32] Just stand still just for five minutes ten minutes

[00:16:34] Let's tell people just leave me alone and just look and I call it seeing not looking

[00:16:39] So you're not just looking into a room you seeing what what is this room telling me? Is there something that's moved?

[00:16:46] Is there something that's out of place?

[00:16:48] Can I build up a picture in my own mind about what's gone on just by trying to take in what the rooms telling me?

[00:16:55] and it may sound really simple, but very few detectives actually do that and

[00:17:00] Not just inside the scene but outside the scene when you stood there and you've just arrived

[00:17:05] And one of the things that you need to ask me as experience helps with this

[00:17:09] what you need to do is just calm yourself down sort of

[00:17:12] because when you turn up a murder scene when you're the first there from the murder team and

[00:17:18] You are basically taking responsibility for this murder. Everybody's looking at you for for advice

[00:17:24] To bring calmness to what is generally quite a chaotic scene. You've got there on blue lights and sirens

[00:17:31] So your adrenaline's running anyway, you know that any decision you make is going to be poured over by lawyers later on

[00:17:37] so there's loads of pressure on you and quite often what you'd see is

[00:17:41] What's I'm running around I had to chicken but they're not far off it some detectives because that pressures really get into them

[00:17:46] What you need to do is recenter yourself just stand and just just even if people are bothering you say look

[00:17:52] Can you just give me two minutes and just look around the scene just looking up and at the floors

[00:17:57] Looking high looking at windows looking for potential routes for suspect potential evidence

[00:18:02] That may have been less where where would witnesses be are the CCTV cameras really trying to take in the scene?

[00:18:09] So that you can investigate it properly and it's something most detectives don't do and for me. I always found it such a

[00:18:16] valuable exercise

[00:18:18] And and revisiting the scene as well because when you are there and

[00:18:22] You got the cordon tape up loads of police officers members of public

[00:18:27] They're filming you trying to get a look at what's going on. There's all that chaos

[00:18:32] You don't really get a picture of that. That's that scene that area

[00:18:36] So go back when everything's everyone's gone and you can get back there and you can get an understanding of war

[00:18:42] What is normal for this area?

[00:18:44] And again, it's not a lot not a lot of detectives do that

[00:18:47] And I think it's it's so important if you're gonna understand and try and solve a murder

[00:18:52] You need to try and understand what has gone on and build up a picture of what is normal in this area

[00:18:58] What would what would normally be happening and you don't get that from that?

[00:19:02] Chaotic time at the beginning when the murders just been reported. Yeah, it makes sense. That makes sense

[00:19:06] Can you talk to us about how a murder investigation is run and what investigative thinking is essentially what you've got is

[00:19:14] 25 detectives all running around doing their own thing. Yeah, but they're all do they're all

[00:19:20] With the same goal in mind. I call it big goal little goal

[00:19:23] So the big goal in a murder investigation is to secure a safe and a safe and proper conviction

[00:19:28] Not just any conviction you need to secure the conviction of the person that's done it

[00:19:32] So that's what everybody's working towards but have all got little goals that feed into that

[00:19:36] So if you're on the CCTV your goal is I need to collect CCTV in this particular area to identify

[00:19:42] Movements of the suspect moving the victim putting them together whatever whatever it is, but your small goal

[00:19:47] Feeds into that bigger goal and everybody's doing that. So that that's that's how a murder investigation work

[00:19:55] investigative think thinking

[00:19:57] Really is about trying to get an understanding of so what do we know?

[00:20:02] What don't we know and how are we going to find what we don't know so what do we know?

[00:20:08] What don't we know and how are we gonna find what we don't and that's that's to me is what the investigative thinking is

[00:20:12] And and as a senior officer these this this sort of thought process would all be put down onto paper

[00:20:20] so

[00:20:21] Every every decision you're coming to you can justify why you're doing it

[00:20:25] You can justify what lines of inquiry you're doing and just as importantly what lines of inquiry you're not doing

[00:20:31] Because later on when you get to court defense love to try and pick you up on on processes

[00:20:36] And if for some reason there's something I've had it where they'll come up with some CCTV should have been found in this area

[00:20:43] And if you'd look there, you're to see my client. Well, we had no reason to look there

[00:20:47] There was nothing there was no evidence

[00:20:48] No information that anybody at that area anything to do with a murder and because you can you can

[00:20:55] Explain your process for collecting the CCTV you can sort of you can knock that one back and say well that

[00:21:00] Yeah, you can say what you like

[00:21:01] But this is why this is why we collected to see CCTV what we did

[00:21:05] So this there's so much thought has to go into what you do what you don't do in order to justify it later on

[00:21:12] and

[00:21:14] What is important as well?

[00:21:15] He's got 25 detectives all running around everybody needs to know what they're doing and why they're doing it

[00:21:20] And that's it. This is what at the beginning I was talking about

[00:21:23] Translating skills to business. I think it's that

[00:21:27] Ability to have so many people doing so many different things, but bring them all back together

[00:21:33] Everybody understands where their small piece fits into the bigger picture

[00:21:38] Understanding what other people are doing and how their work relates to yours

[00:21:41] It's really important. I think that I think in business that would really really help

[00:21:45] Yeah, that makes a lot of sense

[00:21:46] How does one avoid allowing confirmation bias and support decision-making to derail investigation

[00:21:53] Yeah, I mean confirmation bias for me is the the number one enemy of a detective

[00:21:58] It's where things can go really wrong

[00:22:00] And whenever I talk about this, I always use the example of Rachel Mikhail where Colin Stagg the police investigating Rachel's murder

[00:22:08] had a criminal profiler who came up with a profile of the likely suspect and

[00:22:14] As far as the police were concerned that was Colin Stagg and they did everything they could to try and prove that they were right

[00:22:21] Not prove that he was a killer as in he was the killer but prove that they were right

[00:22:26] Because they'd already made up their minds

[00:22:28] So they went looking for evidence to prove themselves, right?

[00:22:31] Including a honey trap and trying to get him to confess to the murder

[00:22:35] But but it wasn't him. He was innocent completely innocent. It was somebody else and

[00:22:40] Where they were so caught up in trying to prove Colin Stagg as guilty

[00:22:44] They took their eye off the ball as to who really was the killer that turned out to be a man called Robert Napper

[00:22:50] who then went on to kill a

[00:22:53] woman and her young child

[00:22:56] after Rachel now, I'm not saying that if I'm not saying that's the police's fault, but

[00:23:03] There is a chance isn't there if they hadn't been so caught up in Colin Stagg

[00:23:08] Could they have got to Napper first and would Jasmine Blissett and a young child still be alive today

[00:23:14] Sorry, Samantha Blissett and a young child still be alive today. And that's the that's to me is like the the real

[00:23:21] Sort of the pinnacle of what could go wrong when confirmation bias creeps into your into your investigation

[00:23:28] so for me the way you combat that is just being aware that it's a thing and

[00:23:33] So I've come up with

[00:23:36] Mnemonic that to help make better decisions and it's the I cop and so so for me it's it's defying goal

[00:23:44] Information confirmation bias options and prepared to be wrong. So first off why am I making this decision?

[00:23:50] What what is my what is my purpose and that's a defined goal

[00:23:53] And I think one of the things when I see people making bad decisions is because they're not they're not

[00:23:59] They're not focused in on why they're making a decision. They're not understanding where they need to end up

[00:24:03] That's why they end up making bad decisions

[00:24:06] Information what so why am I making this decision? What do I know? What don't I know information confirmation bias?

[00:24:13] Just be aware of it

[00:24:14] If you're aware of confirmation bias and you're where you could fall into that trap, you're much more likely

[00:24:19] Not to and you're thinking like well, okay

[00:24:22] I think this but what if I'm wrong and and that that also goes into the last one and Oh options

[00:24:29] So when you're when you're making a decision, it should never be a binary choice. Isn't it shouldn't be a or B

[00:24:36] There's always another option and quite often if you put your mind to what the other option is

[00:24:40] it's almost a compromise of the two and

[00:24:42] Quite often is actually the better choice because because you've thought about

[00:24:46] Actually the the downsides of this and the downsides of that

[00:24:50] if if I incorporate that into a different decision different option, I'm probably going to come up with a better one and

[00:24:56] And the final one is prepared to be wrong

[00:24:58] What if what if I'm wrong? What if I get this wrong this decision? What if I get it wrong?

[00:25:02] what are the repercussions and if you if you if you have that that thought process of

[00:25:08] Why am I making this decision? What don't I know? What do I need to know? Let's have a minor confirmation biased

[00:25:14] What are my options and not just two and what if I'm wrong and if you think about a decision like that

[00:25:20] You've got a much better chance of making a better decision at the end

[00:25:23] Thank you for that one other questions popped in my mind you just mentioned

[00:25:27] Profiling and profilers. Do you place much stock in criminal profiling? I think it's it can be useful

[00:25:34] for certain things so

[00:25:37] We rarely use them so over a hundred murder investigations we use them two or three times I think

[00:25:44] what they are is a

[00:25:47] best guess of the type of person you're looking for based on

[00:25:53] Previous crimes and academic study. Mm-hmm

[00:25:57] And so what you do with that? So it is it it can help you in terms of if you're trying to

[00:26:05] prioritize the people you're looking at so if you've got a murder and you've got

[00:26:08] potentially a hundred people that could fit the

[00:26:12] So your search parameters if you like for who you're looking for for the murder so which could include

[00:26:19] People that were close by people that was like the last people that saw the victim

[00:26:23] people they're regularly in contact with people they may have issues with and

[00:26:27] People in the area that have similar mo so you could end up in some murder inquiries

[00:26:33] With a hundred people on their list that you need to try and eliminate

[00:26:36] If you've got a criminal profile it can help you prioritize them because they're right if the likelihood is that the character is ABC

[00:26:44] Let's look at people first that fit ABC, but you don't eliminate them all the others

[00:26:51] Because of a profile so they have their place

[00:26:55] But in or in reality, they're not going to solve a case for you

[00:26:59] They're gonna assist you in probably sifting through a number of people. It's probably as high as it can go

[00:27:06] It's always found profiling quite interesting because obviously I think

[00:27:10] From a film TV perspective we could have get a bit obsessed about this idea of getting into the mind of a killer and I

[00:27:15] Think yeah profiling does tend to get a bit overhyped a little bit

[00:27:20] on my second book

[00:27:22] So the first book was murder investigation team

[00:27:24] How cool is a court and the second book murder investigation team Jack the Ripper and essentially what I'm doing

[00:27:29] I'm applying the the order processes from the first book to the Jack the Ripper case and

[00:27:34] Trying to see where we end up with it and

[00:27:37] I'd a really interesting input from the National Crime Agency

[00:27:40] so in the UK

[00:27:42] there are only two people that are qualified and can provide criminal profiles to the police and

[00:27:48] One of those provided a criminal profile for Jack the Ripper for me for the book

[00:27:52] I was a real privilege and it was quite humbling that they allow

[00:27:55] They chose to do that because the National Crime Agency have never gone public with the work they do around that

[00:28:01] So that was a really interesting process to see but you know in all honesty

[00:28:05] It didn't take us any closer to identifying who Jack the Ripper may have been it just it just

[00:28:11] Demonstrated that if the police at the time had this information

[00:28:14] They may have been able to prioritize the huge number of suspects that they had

[00:28:17] I have to ask now. Did you ever figure out who Jack the Ripper may have been? I'll give you a clue. No one knows

[00:28:24] Don't spoil the book, but no one's got a clue and no matter how many names people come up with

[00:28:30] No, when you look at the evidence that's available there is none there's a

[00:28:34] There's a few witnesses that give some really generic descriptions and beyond that there is no evidence

[00:28:40] So if you're basing it off of evidence, we're never gonna know. No, okay

[00:28:49] Well, I'm back to back to murder, um, can you talk to us a little bit about the different types of motivations for murder?

[00:28:55] Yeah, so when I was writing this book, I mentioned about I was going to have to direct it towards true crime fans. I

[00:29:03] Went to a couple of Facebook groups because I just wanted you need to understand what they wanted to know

[00:29:09] So I just introduced myself and I put a survey out got really good response like 650 respondents

[00:29:14] It was a really good response and far and away

[00:29:17] The number one question that people wanted to know is why do people kill?

[00:29:20] So I thought well, I better put my mind to this and I've got quite an analytical mind and I thought well

[00:29:25] Is there some kind of pattern is is there something I can say?

[00:29:29] well that murders happen in it for these reasons and

[00:29:33] At first I could be honest. I was struggling with that

[00:29:35] It was like trying to understand

[00:29:37] Well, how do they all fit in and then I thought I'd come at a different angle rather than thinking about why as people

[00:29:43] Do we choose to kill I was trying to I came at a different angles

[00:29:46] Why is why as people are we motivated to do anything?

[00:29:49] Why do we choose to do anything in life?

[00:29:51] And when I came in at that angle, I had a like a light bulb moment

[00:29:55] I was like actually there's only three reasons as human beings we do anything and that's because of how we feel

[00:30:01] What something I've got some feeling inside of me. That's that's motivating me to do something

[00:30:07] So if we relate that to the gym, I feel tired

[00:30:10] I feel lethargic or I could feel inspired by watching something on TV

[00:30:14] But I feel something that's made me want to go to the gym. Mm-hmm, or we do it because of how we want to feel

[00:30:20] So if I do something

[00:30:21] I know it's gonna make me feel like this and again if we really relate that to the gym

[00:30:25] It could be that I know when I when I work out I get a rush of endorphins

[00:30:29] Or I beat my personal best or I get a glow after I've done it or something

[00:30:33] but I know if I go to the gym, this is how it's gonna make me feel and the third one is

[00:30:38] For gain for the benefit that you're gonna get from it

[00:30:41] So if I go to the gym, I'm gonna lose weight. I'm gonna have that beach body

[00:30:45] I'm gonna sleep longer gonna live longer. So no matter what you do

[00:30:49] In that scenario for a gym

[00:30:51] it will fall under them how I feel I want to feel and then the benefit I get and

[00:30:55] that will translate to anything that you choose to do including murder and I

[00:31:01] Was like a light bulb moment for me as I it just makes complete sense. So how I feel so anger jealousy disrespect

[00:31:09] any any

[00:31:12] Really strong emotion that's been triggered within you because of some kind of event

[00:31:16] They all fall under that and I think what we do in when we're describing

[00:31:21] if imagine someone comes home and they find their their partner in bed with somebody else and they end up killing them and

[00:31:27] You ask them or why have you why did you do that?

[00:31:30] I don't think they would even be able to describe it or they would be able to say I felt this rage

[00:31:35] But what we want to do is label that rage in terms of was it jealousy anger humiliation

[00:31:41] In actual fact, I don't think it matters. I think it's that becomes a case of semantics

[00:31:45] Yeah

[00:31:46] What we're talking about is a triggered emotion a really strong emotion that covers all of those and they're all so close that how can?

[00:31:52] You differentiate what the actual emotion is?

[00:31:55] And then when we're talking about so we're talking about Jack the Ripper. So this is why he killed so you see the power control

[00:32:01] sexual gratification

[00:32:04] Typical serial killers would come under that and what they're doing that their acts of killing somebody is

[00:32:09] In order for them to feel something feel one of those one of those emotions

[00:32:14] Domestic violence will come under that as well where it's all about control and power. I'm hurting you because if it makes me feel powerful

[00:32:22] And then the final one

[00:32:24] robbery terrorism

[00:32:27] Hit man gang violence is all to do with the benefit. I I want to achieve something

[00:32:33] I want to gain something for me or somebody else in order to do that

[00:32:37] I have to hurt you and that and they will fall under that now

[00:32:40] The only proviso would be really with someone's really seriously mentally ill when they're hearing voices or seeing seeing things hallucinations

[00:32:47] But I am yet to see it

[00:32:50] Defy you but please did come up with a murder that will not come under one of these three headings

[00:32:56] and I don't think you can because

[00:32:58] Ultimately if you strip away the the legal or moral ramifications of murder

[00:33:03] It still comes back to a choice. Somebody is making I'm gonna kill you out of my own choice

[00:33:09] It would be because of how I feel I want to feel or the benefit I'll get from it. Yeah. Yeah

[00:33:14] What are the most common?

[00:33:16] Circumstances for a murder and all the sort of murders that you've investigated. Is there like a particular type of murder?

[00:33:22] That's quite common. I would say there were three that would probably be the most common and they were

[00:33:28] Associated gangs gang violence and drugs

[00:33:32] Mostly knife crime, but the odd shooting

[00:33:35] domestic domestic

[00:33:37] Murders. Yeah, and murders are related to mental illness

[00:33:40] So they would be the three most common and obviously you could have amongst that you would have potentially I don't know

[00:33:47] confrontation at a pub

[00:33:49] you may have rarely but you may have those are going out to try and kill somebody because of

[00:33:54] That that power and control sexual gratification

[00:33:57] But the most the majority of murders would have fallen under that they did associated with gangs

[00:34:03] Associated with domestic violence or as a result of someone's mental health. Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll be right back

[00:34:20] He talks about some of the different lines of investigation murder investigation teams pursue

[00:34:33] So all murders have exactly the same lines of inquiry

[00:34:37] Some may have there might be a few differences like so for instance all about criminal profiles you wouldn't get them in all murders

[00:34:43] But there is there are certain lines of inquiry that happen in every single murder. So so CCTV

[00:34:51] telephones

[00:34:52] forensics

[00:34:54] intelligence

[00:34:55] Family liaison officer and these will all be allocated to different officers on the team

[00:35:00] Every single murder will have those but different murders will rely on them in different ways

[00:35:05] One murder investigation might be quite CCTV heavy

[00:35:09] Because it's in the middle of a built-up area, but if it's happened in a rural area

[00:35:14] CCTV will still be relevant, but they won't be we relied on as much and it's the same for telephones forensic evidence, etc

[00:35:20] so when you begin a murder inquiry an

[00:35:24] Officer will or there will always be an officer allocated

[00:35:27] We call it core roles that core role every single murder that an officer would be allocated that core role

[00:35:33] They may be busier on some than others, but every single murder follows those same patterns and it's not it's not

[00:35:40] murder investigation isn't like

[00:35:43] Painting by numbers. There is no book that you can you can open up and tell you how to investigate a murder

[00:35:47] But there certainly are patterns that you follow in every single murder investigation

[00:35:52] Yeah, if I remember the Colin Sutton show with regards to the investigation into Millie Dowler

[00:35:58] I think it was that they

[00:36:00] These it was depicting the show not a hundred sexual house decks up reality, but there was a particular van that was

[00:36:06] Adjacent to the one of the crime scenes that they ended up focusing on but it was a very common type of van

[00:36:13] They didn't really apparently have the full number plate

[00:36:15] But that sort of became the thing that they focused on even though a lot of people still challenged that so it can so obviously

[00:36:21] Do you saying investigation sometimes something will come up wind up being the focus? Is that right? Yeah hundred percent

[00:36:27] Yeah, so every single murder is different

[00:36:30] But then that van

[00:36:32] CCTV officers will be looking to try and establish the movements of the van try and see if they can identify

[00:36:37] And CCTV would incorporate a NPR does it does a NPR?

[00:36:41] Can that give an indication of that type of van in that area? So

[00:36:46] Every single murder will have different nuances to it

[00:36:50] but they all will fall under a

[00:36:53] An umbrella of a particular line of inquiry. Yeah, that makes sense

[00:36:57] So we found our suspects

[00:36:59] It could talk to us about a sort of arrest and interviewing a suspect and also how important is it to get a confession?

[00:37:06] Yeah, see this is something that I think is misunderstood certainly from crime fiction

[00:37:11] When you're interviewing a suspect is not to get a confession and in reality

[00:37:15] It's rare that especially when you're interviewing someone for murder. It's rare that they're going to confess

[00:37:20] What you're trying to do ideally is get them to commit to an account

[00:37:25] That you can test and it also makes it a bit more difficult for them when they come to court because they've already come up

[00:37:30] with an account at the police station and if they later come up with something that's different or

[00:37:36] They're clearly been lying at the police station or they might just be slight differences

[00:37:41] that makes it much harder for them when they give an evidence at court and

[00:37:45] The the the differences will be pointed out to them when they're given evidence

[00:37:49] Well, you're saying this now

[00:37:50] But you said something different back then and then the jury can make up their mind as to whether or not that's because they're lying

[00:37:55] so you're trying to get them to commit to a

[00:37:58] Story, the reality is I'm a vast majority of people you interview will say no comment

[00:38:04] When I was interviewing terrorists, they wouldn't even say that they would just put him talk to you

[00:38:08] They just basically look at the floor. They wouldn't even answer their name

[00:38:11] So I mean that on its own if someone's saying no comment as well

[00:38:16] That's not the worst thing in the world because under the the law in England and Wales

[00:38:21] If you are interviewed and you get that caution those words are given after you after you arrested you get those those same words

[00:38:29] When you're being interviewed in a police station, which is you do not have to say anything

[00:38:33] But it may harm your defense if you do not mention when questioned something that you later rely on in court

[00:38:38] Anything you do say may be given evidence and it's that middle bit that's important something. It was too late to rely on in court

[00:38:44] so if

[00:38:45] they come up with something there the judge and they usually would do this in a murder trial can direct the jury that

[00:38:52] The that defendant could have what is telling you now members of the jury

[00:38:56] he or she could have told you back at the police station and

[00:39:00] You can draw an inference from that and that potentially that of their guilt and I remember this case

[00:39:07] At court and this little old lady from the jury came up to me afterwards. She said oh, thank you officer for all your help

[00:39:13] She said I knew he was guilty as soon as he didn't say anything at the police station

[00:39:18] He's like a really nice insight into how a jury mind works

[00:39:22] I think what she thinks that many more must think that because it's right

[00:39:25] It really isn't it if you're innocent you could just say back then so I've got nothing to do with it

[00:39:29] Why wait until nine months a year later?

[00:39:33] So so interviewing people isn't quite like it's done

[00:39:37] It is on telly because rarely will they confess and that's not actually what you're looking to do

[00:39:42] Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. No, I can see why people in TV definitely want the kind of

[00:39:49] Asked the confession because it helps makes the detective on TV look good

[00:39:52] I suppose and that because you kind of again get information out of them and have an interesting kind of

[00:39:57] Conversation about the motives or why they did what they did. Yeah, and and funny enough you say in that why?

[00:40:02] well, I often and I'm only guessing by looking at the the body language of the jury members I

[00:40:09] Always got the impression they were quite disappointed with interviews police interviews because I think they were expecting the banging on the table and the

[00:40:17] Tricking them and getting them to confess to it. I think the reality

[00:40:23] especially

[00:40:24] Nowadays with there's different types of interview training

[00:40:27] And so you've got tier one to tier one tier two tier three tier one

[00:40:31] All police officers all uniform officers are taught tier one interview training

[00:40:36] Detectives have given tier two training and advanced interviewers tier three

[00:40:41] And when you're interviewing a tier three trainer, it can be quite dull. I mean they go into so much detail and I

[00:40:49] personally, I think it can be counterproductive when you get to get to court because the jury just nod off because they're just these interview the

[00:40:56] Interviewing officer will be reading out

[00:40:58] Reading out a transcript of the interview in in the witness box and they could be there for two days

[00:41:04] And if there was anything interesting the jury have ignored it because they're just not even listening anymore

[00:41:09] So I think it can be counterproductive and I think yeah

[00:41:12] I think jury members would probably prefer it if it was like it is on TV

[00:41:17] Well, we'll move to the old Bailey. I once went to the old Bailey in 2011

[00:41:22] just a member of a public to watch a murder trial because I've never seen one before I was just intrigued and

[00:41:28] What the two observations I had were it was a lot slower than I was expecting it to be

[00:41:35] and I vaguely remember one of I think it must mean the

[00:41:39] Prosecution gave us quick speech about forensics versus CSI and how to set your expectations

[00:41:46] So it was quite an interesting experience going into a court

[00:41:49] So I was wondering if you could talk just a bit about then taking a murder case and in in London

[00:41:55] It would be the old Bailey wouldn't it and how I can a murder case would play out and in your book you mentioned a

[00:41:59] Bit about how the experience of the families can be quite a negative one sometimes

[00:42:04] Yeah, so I mean there's a there's a there's a lot to say there. I'll try I'll try and keep it brief

[00:42:10] Yeah murder murder trials on as you would see on TV. They can be very slow and if you're a jury member, I mean

[00:42:18] one of the things

[00:42:20] When when you when you get called up for jury service, you're basically told you're gonna do two weeks and

[00:42:26] I've had

[00:42:28] cases there and we know they're probably gonna be three months and the faces of the jury

[00:42:33] but they're told that this could be three months and you can see the panic on their face and they're

[00:42:38] They're going up to the judge when they because what happens is you get I don't know

[00:42:42] 20 30 members of the jury from the from the jury room brought down potential jurors and

[00:42:48] Randomly their names get caught out and you can see them. Please don't call me

[00:42:51] Please don't call me or if they're retired and they've got no other commitments

[00:42:54] So maybe they do want to be called and then you can see the panic on their face and the judge will always say

[00:43:01] Once your name's called out go to the go to the jury box

[00:43:05] But if you've got any reason why you you can't commit to this trial come to me and you see them running up to the judge

[00:43:11] I can't do it

[00:43:12] I mean which is quite reasonable

[00:43:13] Imagine having been told you got to put your life on hold for three months for a jury

[00:43:18] so eventually you'll get there eventually you'll find 12 members at a public that can do it and

[00:43:23] It yeah, they can be long. They can be slow

[00:43:27] They can be really frustrating if you do remember because you're always getting told to leave because there's something interesting

[00:43:32] Yes, you can't hear it. Yeah, and for as a murder investigator. I I

[00:43:38] Didn't enjoy I've got to be honest. I didn't enjoy the process of the trial enjoy the end

[00:43:43] Getting a conviction at the end was was the best part of the job

[00:43:47] Massively the best part of the job, but when you're putting your prosecution case it can it can get quite nasty

[00:43:54] defense barrister

[00:43:55] I've got no issue with defense barristers because if I was if I were ever to be charged or something

[00:44:01] I would want to be defended but the way in way in which some of them go about their business is in some cases is

[00:44:08] Despicable so the way they were treated sometimes family members when they're given evidence

[00:44:13] just as a background about a victim sometimes the way these barristers treated the families was awful and

[00:44:19] The the court system is set up to look after the defendant. I get that I fully understand we need a fair system

[00:44:27] But there's too much

[00:44:29] Not too much emphasis, but there's a there's a huge gap between the emphasis that's played on

[00:44:35] towards the defendant and

[00:44:38] victims families witnesses etc and it's a really it can be a really hard time for families and

[00:44:44] They will go in and the defense will try and

[00:44:49] undermine the

[00:44:51] They would try and turn the jury against the victim try and demonize the victim

[00:44:55] Trying to almost paint it that this is the victim's fault that they're dead and that can be really difficult for a family when they're

[00:45:01] Hearing that their loved one just just a bit there from their reputation completely completely ruined in in court

[00:45:08] It's a really hard time for the family members

[00:45:11] and that's why I always made it sweeter by the end when you get that conviction, so when

[00:45:16] when the

[00:45:17] when you've been through the case when you've been through your your evidence when the defense have put their case and all the

[00:45:23] Speeches are done the summing up has been done by the judge. The jury will go out and they can be out for days and

[00:45:29] Eventually get called back into the court and you know that there's going to be a verdict and you see there

[00:45:34] it's a really nervous time and I was nervous enough God knows what the

[00:45:39] Defendants feel like my stomach will be churning

[00:45:41] the families and the first people I would always look at when they when the verdict came back with was the family's just to see

[00:45:46] their reaction and

[00:45:48] What are you you to see me right back that's in the book Chris that I was always blown away by the dignity that

[00:45:54] these families

[00:45:56] always constantly showed and even when the conviction was read out as when the verdict come back as a guilty was never a

[00:46:05] It was never there was never like this joyous moment. It was all it was like a moment of relief and

[00:46:11] As I talked about earlier, they're in this limbo and to them

[00:46:15] It's like they can start it's like there's there's a light at the end of the tunnel that I can start to move on

[00:46:20] So the court I don't miss one of the things. I really really don't miss is is caught

[00:46:26] But I do miss that feeling at the end that that when you've when you get everything you've been through the family you and everyone's

[00:46:32] Been through that conviction at the end is why I stayed in the end and did the 12 years. Yeah. Yeah, I could imagine that

[00:46:38] It's yeah getting all that work. So if you're putting all that work together and at least as a successful outcome from your point of view

[00:46:44] Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Yeah, brilliant

[00:46:47] Well, I've got a few more questions for majors before we sort of wrap up and so one of the first question is are all

[00:46:53] Investigations treated equally. So this is a two-tier answer. So yeah

[00:46:58] In terms of the murder investigators the investigation team hundred percent you don't you would never

[00:47:04] Treat one murder over you would never prioritize one murder over another every that sometimes

[00:47:10] Be honest, sometimes you get more emotionally attached to a murder

[00:47:14] It's bit for me

[00:47:14] It was when it was children and you become more emotionally invested

[00:47:18] But in terms of professional investment the time you put into it and the effort you put into solving the case

[00:47:23] You don't differentiate every case you treat the same and every case you try and you try your hundred percent best to solve

[00:47:30] but

[00:47:31] organizationally murders are treated differently. So for instance

[00:47:35] The murders are categorized as category a category B category C

[00:47:40] so a category C murder is where the

[00:47:44] Identity of the the suspect the killers is is known or believed

[00:47:49] Category B is where they're then they're not known. They're unknown. We don't know who's done it

[00:47:54] We used to call them a whodunit. Yeah, or if it's a really really tricky one, we call it proper whodunit

[00:47:59] It's either who'd done it or proper whodunit but a category a murder

[00:48:03] We're those kind those kind of murders where as a real impact on the community the reputation of the police

[00:48:08] There's real public interest. So for instance, Sarah Everard's murder would have been a category a and

[00:48:14] there's no doubt that those category a murders do get access to more resources and I remember when

[00:48:21] Sarah Everard's case was going on and we had a murder of a young boy was shot and

[00:48:27] His mom was saying why can't we have those because you can see on the news how many resources

[00:48:31] That put into it and she's saying why can't we have that on our murder?

[00:48:35] And and you wish you could you wish you could provide those resources and every single murder, but it's just it's just not possible

[00:48:42] So you've got say look we get that we fully understand that but you've got our full and utter commitment

[00:48:47] And I suppose that's the best you can promise

[00:48:51] But yeah, so

[00:48:53] That's it really essentially as a detective

[00:48:56] No as an organization. Yes, there is a difference between murders

[00:49:01] Just quickly you mentioned Sarah Everard case obviously in the UK

[00:49:04] That was a you know, very high profile case and obviously involved police officer named Wayne Cousins

[00:49:10] Do you have any thoughts or insights on on that that you could share with us in terms of what what why did it?

[00:49:17] What was he? Yeah, why he did it and also

[00:49:22] There were other events that led up to him killing her that seemed to go undetected

[00:49:27] I don't know if you've got any sort of thoughts and all of that

[00:49:29] Yeah, so early on when I was talking about the motivations for killing

[00:49:34] Motivations that people kill his is a pool of emotion and it's it's it's almost like

[00:49:42] textbook

[00:49:43] you talk about the progression of somebody who's sexually motivated and

[00:49:49] He did the flashing

[00:49:51] Allegations of him flashing and I would imagine in between the flashing and the the murder of Sarah

[00:49:57] there were probably things in between that we don't know about but

[00:50:01] undoubtedly, he was doing what he was doing because he wanted to feel something by by hurting Sarah and

[00:50:08] He you could see from the planning that he was buying things off of the internet to prepare to do this

[00:50:14] So that was his intention. I

[00:50:16] Cut that's that's the basics of it. That's why he was doing it

[00:50:20] Why did it in how he thought he would get away with it?

[00:50:23] Well, what would prevent possess a police officer do that? I would never be able to get head around never be able to understand

[00:50:29] I understand why I did it in terms of what was motivating him

[00:50:33] but that's that's a big leap from understanding the basics of it to understand why actually then went and did it and

[00:50:39] He had such a negative impact the police is

[00:50:43] The police the public perception of the police I think has probably never been lower and

[00:50:49] Him and

[00:50:51] the other the the rapist

[00:50:54] What's his name Dave?

[00:50:56] I'll come his name. Yeah

[00:50:56] All right

[00:50:57] There was a one that was convicted of multiple rapes and you just continually gets in these put in the news is completely undermining

[00:51:04] the the confidence in the police and what made me really sad at that time was

[00:51:09] If you look went on social media

[00:51:11] You would see women who genuinely not not the type of women that would normally go on media and dig out the police

[00:51:17] Women were genuinely had concerns that if something were to happen to me

[00:51:21] I wouldn't feel comfortable calling the police and that made me really sad because that that I that's been my job

[00:51:27] The job of the police is to protect society

[00:51:30] That's basically why they're there to protect society

[00:51:33] And if something is bad is happening to you

[00:51:36] You should be have the confidence and the police should be the first people that you want to seek that help from

[00:51:42] and and that seed of doubt there's been sown by Wayne cousins and

[00:51:47] Carrick isn't it Dave Carrick that that

[00:51:51] That just makes me feel quite sad because that's my that's been my whole adult life has been devoted to

[00:51:59] Protecting society and the thought that people at their most vulnerable would have concerns about

[00:52:05] Seeking the help of police. It's just a really awful position to have found ourselves in yeah

[00:52:11] No, it's very sad. Yeah, it does feel like unfortunate the moment trusting

[00:52:16] The police has gone to an all-time low and I feel

[00:52:19] social media

[00:52:21] Exaggerates that a little bit as well. I makes it worse

[00:52:24] But then the police don't hurt themselves to that no, no because it all every day there's a new scandal

[00:52:31] I strongly believe that it's down to the police now to rebuild that trust and they've got they've got to be seen to be

[00:52:37] Getting their house in order. Yeah, definitely

[00:52:40] Another murder questions. I know we're getting a bit close to the end of the time there

[00:52:43] but I'm really interested also about like are there some instances where

[00:52:46] MIT are not the lead in a murder inquiry because I asked this because I've seen counterterrorism command occasionally lead

[00:52:53] Investigations into like for example the attempted murder of the Scripples or we could say attempted assassination in 2018

[00:52:59] How does that work and do they have officers in their ranks who have a background in murder investigations?

[00:53:05] Yeah, so essentially if a murder appears to be motivated by terrorism

[00:53:11] It will be led by so 15 that he the counterterrorism command

[00:53:16] So we were on call murder team and we were covering Lee Rigby's area and

[00:53:21] they took it on straight away because it clearly was motivated by by terrorism and

[00:53:28] they have some highly experienced officers there and

[00:53:32] they

[00:53:33] The fully capable investigating murders and in actual fact, they have so many more resources than we do

[00:53:39] one of the last murders I investigated was the

[00:53:42] The

[00:53:44] Murder of Matt retina. He was a police officer was shot in custody in Croydon

[00:53:48] and we went to the the counterterrorism command to assist us with a lot of that because they just have a

[00:53:56] vast amount of resources compared to a murder team

[00:54:00] Yeah, yeah, I remember that case. It's a terrible one

[00:54:03] Yeah, that was one with the suspect still had a gun on him. Is that right?

[00:54:07] Yeah, they searched him when he was on the street, but they didn't finally had a gun in a holster just under his arm

[00:54:14] Yeah

[00:54:15] well

[00:54:16] One last questions and over running out of time. What makes a good murder detective for me?

[00:54:21] The number one skill of a murder detective is communication. So

[00:54:25] Your job as a murder investigator is to gather information in order to prove a case against a killer

[00:54:30] And a lot of the information you're going to be seeking is is within people within witnesses

[00:54:36] within suspects victims family and

[00:54:39] It's not always easy getting that information out of people one. They might not to tell you to they don't always understand

[00:54:46] What's important and they might only tell you what they think is important

[00:54:49] so being able to communicate with people and get that information and certainly when you when you're dealing with

[00:54:56] The people you come across a murder inquiry. There could be people that hate you the angry that mistrusted the police

[00:55:02] They could be people that think are above you because their status in society

[00:55:07] so there's all sorts of different people and everyone in between and you're trying to communicate with so you have to be able to

[00:55:13] Adjust how you communicate with someone use techniques that are that can get that information from them

[00:55:19] Even when they don't want to give it to you. So yeah the number one

[00:55:23] Skill in a murder investigator has to be communication. Yeah, Steve. Thank you so much for your time

[00:55:27] So where can listeners find out more about you your book and your work? Yeah, so I've got my own website Steve Keogh comm

[00:55:34] Currently, I'm putting all my efforts into helping crime writers. So I've launched an online community

[00:55:40] I've launched my podcast is coming out

[00:55:42] So I think there's a real gap in where people who are writing crime fiction can go and get proper information

[00:55:51] Sometimes you get the writers that are successful

[00:55:54] More money writing a book than I did who can afford to go to get private

[00:56:00] Coaching or information from a from a former police officer or something? But most most authors can't do that

[00:56:05] So I'm just trying to provide some accessible information to really try and help crime writers with their authenticity

[00:56:10] So so that's what that's that's what my project is at the moment and everything I do is on Steve Keogh comm

[00:56:16] Excellent. Well, thank you again for your time today. It's been very great chatting with you. Cheers Chris. I enjoyed it

[00:56:21] Thanks very much for having me on

[00:56:54] Thanks for listening. This is secrets and spies