S8 Ep42: Agent Of The Iron Cross With Bill Mills

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[00:00:07] Lock your doors close the blinds change your passwords. This is Secrets and Spies

[00:00:27] Secrets and Spies is a podcast that dives into the world of espionage terrorism

[00:00:32] Geopolitics and intrigue this podcast is produced and hosted by Chris Carr on today's podcast

[00:00:38] I'm joined by historian and author Bill Mills and we discuss his new book agent of the Iron Cross

[00:00:44] Which looks at World War one German espionage and sabotage operations in the United States

[00:00:49] It's a really interesting book and I hope you enjoy this conversation

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[00:01:25] Bill welcome to the podcast. Thank you Chris great to be here

[00:01:45] It's great to have you on for the benefit of the audience

[00:01:48] Please can just tell us a little bit about yourself

[00:01:50] Sure, I have a BA in history and my particular expertise is first world war espionage and covert operations of the early 20th century

[00:01:59] I've been fascinated by this topic for decades and after I mean years ago after reading everything was available in terms of popular

[00:02:07] Books on it. Yeah, I started going to period books then to learn more

[00:02:12] I started actually collecting original documents and photographs from the period just again to learn more and

[00:02:18] I became kind of fascinated by some of the lesser-known incidents that occurred

[00:02:23] during World War one covert operations and I started writing my own books on it and I've now published four books on

[00:02:32] Mostly on world war one espionage fantastic

[00:02:35] Well, we're here to talk about agents of the iron cross which is your latest book

[00:02:38] So I suppose my first question is how did you sort of find out about this story and go about?

[00:02:43] Researching it because one thing I noticed with your book you've got some excellent photos in there that are actually credited to you

[00:02:50] So I'm assuming they're part of your personal collection. They are

[00:02:53] Yeah, some of them. I mean a lot of books have talked about for example, dr. Shields

[00:02:59] Incendiary devices and incendiary cigars have talked about the glass pencil incendiaries

[00:03:05] And I was able to obtain original photographs of these and I believe they published in the case of dr

[00:03:10] Shields incendiary is probably for the first time ever. Yeah

[00:03:13] Fantastic. And so how did you kind of go about researching this because obviously you've got lots of access to some interesting files and things

[00:03:19] To kind of really get into the detail of this story. Well, this is kind of an unusual story

[00:03:24] It's one of the whiskey mission of 1918 is one of the lesser-known incidents of World War one history

[00:03:30] Several books and a few monographs have touched upon it

[00:03:33] The first one I was aware of was written by a British spy master during World War one

[00:03:38] His name was Captain Henry Landau and he published a book called the enemy within that had a few pages on it

[00:03:44] And it really increased my interest in it

[00:03:47] but

[00:03:48] The big thing in terms of writing a book like this is getting enough

[00:03:52] Detailed research material that you really can write a book in detail about it

[00:03:56] Yeah, and one of the fortunate things about the Witsky mission in 1918 is

[00:04:02] Witsky Lothar Witsky and his superior Kurt Yankee were both involved as I'm sure we'll talk about in a few minutes the black

[00:04:10] Tom sabotage in New York Harbor during World War one and

[00:04:15] That was after after World War one

[00:04:17] The the US government and the German government formed something that was called the mixed claims Commission to settle

[00:04:25] Damages that had occurred primarily when America was a neutral before we entered World War one

[00:04:30] And two of the biggest cases were the black the the case of the sabotage of Black Tom Island and also the Kingsland

[00:04:39] Kingsland, New Jersey artillery manufacturing plant that was making artillery for the Russians

[00:04:44] it caused millions and millions of dollars worth of damages and those were

[00:04:49] Adjudicated by this Commission for almost 20 years

[00:04:52] And during that in terms of gathering evidence that they wanted to prove that the British government

[00:04:58] Excuse me, the German government had had done this sabotage

[00:05:02] For example, the full court martial records of Lothar Witsky are included in the MCC files

[00:05:09] interviews with just about every participant that had been involved in this

[00:05:14] 1918 mission to the border

[00:05:15] so there's really a wealth of material and I was fortunate enough to go to a used bookshop and I found a complete set of

[00:05:23] the claimants exhibits

[00:05:25] From the the claims regarding Black Tom Island and to get this material so I could write the book. That's remarkable fine

[00:05:33] That's brilliant

[00:05:33] And then of course, I still had to go to to libraries and foundations and archives to get additional material

[00:05:40] But the bulk of the material came out of the mixed claims Commission files. Mmm. Oh fantastic. Fantastic

[00:05:46] Well, let's let's get into it. So who was Lothar Lothar Witsky and Kurt Yankee?

[00:05:53] Sure

[00:05:53] Lothar Witsky was a 19 year old naval cadet at the outbreak of World War one and he was assigned

[00:06:00] to a German cruiser called the Dresden and

[00:06:03] After a pretty far-ranging cruise across the Pacific the Dresden was involved in the Battle of Falkland the Falkland Islands

[00:06:10] Were a squadron commanded by Commander Sturdee

[00:06:15] Pretty much demolished the Germans naval squadron at the Falklands and that but the Dresden was able to escape and for months played

[00:06:23] cat-and-mouse with

[00:06:24] British cruisers that were searching for it and finally is sunk off the coast of Chile

[00:06:30] At a small island called Isla Maa, Tierra

[00:06:34] Lothar Witsky was badly injured during this

[00:06:38] Period he received a shrapnel wound to his knee and he was brought

[00:06:43] He was interned along with the rest of the crew from the Dresden and taken to Valparaiso and placed in a hospital

[00:06:47] And he was able to escape from the hospital and go aboard a British steamer posing as a Dane and

[00:06:55] escape to San Francisco where his ship landed and

[00:06:59] when he arrived in San Francisco, he he went to the German consulate and

[00:07:04] He met the German consul there a person named

[00:07:08] Franz Bopp and he decided to give him a job

[00:07:12] Witsky wanted to go back to Germany, but at that time due to the British naval blockade

[00:07:16] It was very difficult for any German reservist or active service member to make it back to Germany

[00:07:22] So Bopp gave him a job as as a courier for the embassy and he sort of became a letter carrier

[00:07:28] Taking documents for them and later he he joins with Kurt Yanke

[00:07:33] now Kurt Yanke is frankly one of the more fascinating characters of

[00:07:38] World War one espionage and I was really surprised that more more hasn't been written about him

[00:07:44] He came to the United States from the province of Posen in Germany in the 1890s

[00:07:49] he served in the US Marines for a year and then he became a he joined the custom service where he learned a lot about

[00:07:56] Smuggling and decided become a smuggler himself and he used the lessons to become a smuggler and one of his

[00:08:04] Cleverest things that he did at that time a lot of Chinese had emigrated to the United States primarily to work on the on

[00:08:11] The railroad and other jobs and when they died at that time

[00:08:16] It was very important for them to go but to be buried with their ancestors in their homeland to be repatriated back to China

[00:08:22] But the US government at that time. This is again before World War one had stringent regulations about

[00:08:30] Dead bodies being moved and for for sanitary reasons

[00:08:34] They wouldn't allow that the Chinese to be brought back to the bodies of the dead Chinese to be taken back to China

[00:08:40] So Kurt Yanke came up with this scheme of creating these zinc cases

[00:08:44] That he could put the bodies into and then sawed or shut and he was able to then smuggle them

[00:08:51] Back to Shanghai and to Hong Kong and according to the the Nazi spy chief

[00:08:57] Schellenberg who was his boss during World War two for every corpse that he brought back to China

[00:09:02] He was able to get a fee of a thousand dollars

[00:09:05] So even before World War one began he became a very wealthy very wealthy person

[00:09:10] after the war became began he handled a number of special tasks for the San Francisco

[00:09:17] Consul in the United States and

[00:09:19] Everything from you know causing labor disruption and plants and things like that

[00:09:24] To sabotage and he became an expert saboteur and

[00:09:29] through bop

[00:09:30] Lothar Witzke joins with France with Kurt Yanke and together they become a devastating sabotage team as

[00:09:38] Captain Henry Lando the British spy master said

[00:09:42] They were the most

[00:09:43] Deadly sabotage team in history. Yeah. Yeah, indeed

[00:09:47] They were so can you talk to us about the early sabotage operations in the US their aim and how they tried to not

[00:09:55] Encourage the American government to enter World War one. Sure. Well, of course during the neutrality period

[00:10:01] the

[00:10:03] United States

[00:10:05] Businesses were manufacturing munitions and they would sell munitions to anyone

[00:10:09] They would they would have sold it to the not only to the Allies

[00:10:12] But to the Germans if they could have shipped them to the Germans

[00:10:14] But due to the naval blockade they were unable to do that

[00:10:18] so the the the strategy of the Germans the goal was to

[00:10:23] Stop the flow of American munitions to Europe to France and to Germany and to Russia and

[00:10:29] To do it in a way that would not bring the United States into the war because I mean that would be just a disaster

[00:10:35] For them is what eventually happened due to the amount of manpower that the US could have to provide to the allies in

[00:10:43] Europe so

[00:10:45] Young Yankee and Witsky are involved in sabotage missions across the United States from the West Coast to the East Coast and

[00:10:54] They become a very skilled sabotage team. They don't just sort of say I'm gonna go out and blow up a plant tomorrow

[00:11:01] everything is planned in great detail and

[00:11:04] Kurt Yankee is his thought of everything he began he wants both of them to become US citizens because that will help

[00:11:12] Make it look like that. They weren't involved in something. So he is a US citizen and Witsky is

[00:11:18] Takes out first papers towards becoming a citizen the United States as well. They both adopt aliases

[00:11:26] Kurt Yankees alias is court Borden and at his home in San Francisco in the in the city directory

[00:11:32] He lists not only his true name Kurt Yankee, but also court Borden

[00:11:36] Court Borden his alias as living at the same address and each time that they before they go on a mission

[00:11:44] They have already planned their alibis in advance that will prove to anyone investigating that they weren't there and they also typically

[00:11:53] Leave red herrings for any investigators that come after them that will lead them in the wrong direction

[00:11:58] So they again begin sabotage across the United States. They are involved in according to to Witsky

[00:12:05] Who claimed this in front of other German agents and this was a time when you know

[00:12:10] A German officer's word was his bond. It was honor. He claimed that he was involved in three of the largest

[00:12:17] most significant sabotage incidents

[00:12:20] the destruction of the boilers on the SS, Minnesota

[00:12:25] The destruction of Black Tom Island along with Kurt Yankee

[00:12:30] And also the destruction of the black black powder storehouse on

[00:12:35] In Mare Island. Yeah, they were responsible for something like 20 acts of sabotage, weren't they so between January and July?

[00:12:42] 1915

[00:12:44] I would not be surprised at least I mean

[00:12:47] Again because they a lot of the the explosives that they would use would be at the site

[00:12:53] So they weren't really bring a lot of things with them and they'll be using standard

[00:12:56] Things available at the plant to set off the explosion so evidence was never found and if you look at US newspapers of the period

[00:13:04] 19 late 1914 into 1915 and 1916

[00:13:09] People are noting all these accidents, you know tens and tens 30 40 50 accidents where again

[00:13:16] There's no proof people have their suspicions, but there's no proof that the Germans are doing this. Yeah. Yeah indeed the

[00:13:22] SS Minnesota is an interesting one because it was I was just reading about

[00:13:27] Probably completely unrelated but it was a ship that was supposed to be going out to a US military ship supposed to go out to Gaza

[00:13:32] And it had some fires on board which prevented the ship from leaving and it just reminded me of what happened with the USS

[00:13:38] Minnesota and its boilers. That's quite a coincidence. Yeah, the SS Minnesota was the largest ocean liner ever built and

[00:13:46] Whiskey claimed that he had added chemicals to the water supply on the ship that would destroy the boilers and

[00:13:53] For a year it was in in dry dock being repaired instead of carrying supplies to Britain

[00:13:59] Yeah, and the black Tom bombing you mentioned so five were killed weren't there?

[00:14:03] It was a very big explosion that resulted in some millions of dollars of damage

[00:14:08] He talked us a little bit more about that and also the types of explosives used black Tom Island is an upper New York Bay

[00:14:14] And it was a major transit point for munitions being shipped to the Allies

[00:14:19] Ammunition and explosives being manufactured across the country were taken by rail to black Tom

[00:14:26] Whether they would then be unloaded and loaded onto lighters or barges that would take them over to steamships

[00:14:33] And that would then carry them over to Europe

[00:14:37] Most of what was on black Tom when it blew up was explosives

[00:14:42] Things like TNT and picric acid

[00:14:45] Smokeless powder black powder. There was actually wasn't a lot there was some artillery ammunition

[00:14:49] I think like 15,000 rounds or something

[00:14:51] But most of it actually was explosives and they were at that time of the of the destruction

[00:14:57] There were 2.3 million pounds of explosives on black Tom

[00:15:02] And you can just imagine the shockwave that happened when this blew up

[00:15:07] It was felt as far as 158 miles away in Pennsylvania

[00:15:11] It's believed that because again these these incidents were so so

[00:15:17] Carried out so well that there is very little true evidence

[00:15:22] That but it's believed that Yankee and Witski rode on a rowboat

[00:15:26] to one of the outer piers on black Tom and

[00:15:31] Took incendiary pencils onto a barge. It was called the Johnson 17

[00:15:37] Was owned by a person named Theodore Johnson and it had I think was 400 cases of

[00:15:44] artillery fuses and

[00:15:46] I think a hundred thousand pounds of TNT something like that and at the same time an Austrian immigrant

[00:15:54] Named Michael Kristof was on the actual

[00:15:58] land part of the the the the Freight yard and

[00:16:02] He placed similar devices on a freight car full of explosives and all three of them were able to escape

[00:16:10] Before the explosion Wow

[00:16:12] So I'm just gonna move on from sabotage unless there's anything else you want to add to that

[00:16:16] No, it just in addition to to what they did in peacetime. For example this Mayor Island incident

[00:16:22] Which took place in I think it was a July of

[00:16:27] July 9th

[00:16:28] 2017 yeah, I mean that was after America was in the war and Yankee and Witski without you know

[00:16:34] Any any problem went from Mexico back into the United State?

[00:16:38] well Witski went back into the United States went up to Vallejo, California and

[00:16:44] Blew up this this the storehouse that contained 126 thousand pounds of black powder

[00:16:50] They were hoping to blow up the entire magazine at this US Naval Base Mayor Island and there were a dozen

[00:16:57] Explosives warehouses they were only able to set off one before the Marines and sailors on the base were able to put out the fires

[00:17:05] Yeah, yeah. Wow. Wow

[00:17:07] So you already mentioned Mexico City sort of became a staging ground a staging ground for German agents and Yankee and Witski moved there themselves in 1917

[00:17:17] The German government were keen to sort of start a war between the United States and Mexico to keep the US

[00:17:23] Distracted from the war in Europe. Can you talk to us about those efforts and what Yankee and Witski got up to there?

[00:17:31] Now Yankee and Witski after the US kind of joined the war in April of 1917

[00:17:36] Like most of the other pre-war Sabbath German saboteurs in the United States went to Mexico into Mexico City

[00:17:42] And they didn't do it because they were afraid of getting arrested. Although Mexico became a safe haven for them

[00:17:49] It was more that they needed to keep their communication lines open to their superiors in Europe and be funded for their operations and

[00:17:57] the

[00:17:58] Ambassador in Mexico City a minister of on Eckhart could provide both of those services for them

[00:18:05] But if you sort of take a look at where Germany was in January of 1918 when the Witski mission was launched

[00:18:14] it's kind of a

[00:18:16] They're sort of on the edge on the precipice between victory and defeat the month before in December

[00:18:23] 1917 the new Bolshevik government a new Soviet government of Vladimir Lenin has signed an armistice with Germany and

[00:18:30] The Germans have been able to move 48 divisions to the Western Front

[00:18:34] So now for the first time since 1914 they have an advantage over the British and French armies in France

[00:18:41] It's not a great advantage perhaps, you know five or seven percent manpower

[00:18:46] Advantage but they do have the possibility of winning over the next year

[00:18:50] The United States will bring millions of troops. I think it grows to about two million American troops come to Europe to France to fight

[00:18:59] But the bulk of the Americans coming to Europe happens in 1918

[00:19:03] And so the Germans and German intelligence are looking for a way to prevent the Americans from going over to Europe and

[00:19:11] They have a great example in what happened with Pancho Villa a few years before in March of 1916

[00:19:18] For reasons which still aren't haven't been explained adequately

[00:19:22] Pancho Villa attacks a city in

[00:19:26] Texas just three miles over the border and

[00:19:29] It's it's actually the home of the US 13th cavalry and

[00:19:35] They get beaten off and I think it's four or five hundred of Pancho Villa's cavalrymen get driven back into Mexico

[00:19:44] But as a result of the raid and this is a place called Columbus Columbus, New Mexico

[00:19:48] It's a very small town as a result of the raid on on Columbus, New Mexico

[00:19:53] The United States sent an expeditionary force of

[00:19:56] 6600 men into Mexico that eventually grew to 10,000 at that time

[00:20:00] It was probably most of the eight of the ready

[00:20:04] servicemen in the army in the US were sent into Mexico and the United States government moved the entire

[00:20:10] National Guard to the Mexican border now

[00:20:12] This is just because of one raid by Pancho Villa that resulted in somewhere between 8 and 19

[00:20:18] Casualties in the US both citizens and soldiers

[00:20:21] So the Germans are looking at this and there's realizing wow if we can create an incident

[00:20:26] Along the border with Mexico

[00:20:28] This will distract a lot of the American troops from America's attention will be distracted from Europe and they'll be putting

[00:20:34] Morton troops along the border to protect against a possible raid from Mexico then moving them over to Europe

[00:20:40] so the Germans plan in early

[00:20:43] 1918 was to create the image of an invasion of the United States

[00:20:48] It wouldn't really be an invasion

[00:20:49] It would be more of an attack and they were actually setting up training camps in Mexico in northern Mexico

[00:20:55] to train both German reservists and

[00:20:59] Mexican conscripts for a raid across the border

[00:21:02] into Arizona and the southwest and

[00:21:06] The Witzke mission of 1918 will be part of this

[00:21:10] His job will be to go in first and try to create almost like a terror mission create disorder and chaos

[00:21:18] as a prelude to this

[00:21:21] Supposed invasion that will be the distraction and draw American troops away from here. Yeah, it's quite a

[00:21:28] Was the it's kind of a smart technique from the Germans

[00:21:31] They're trying to distract the Americans like that and I was quite interested as well

[00:21:35] You mentioned in your book about and I didn't realize this so it might be I'm just a poor student of history

[00:21:39] But I didn't realize the Germans helped Lenin get into to Russia and sort of start the Bolshevik Revolution there

[00:21:46] Yeah, that's true. They in addition to like straightforward things like sabotage

[00:21:52] They're also very cleverly were trying to exploit the socio-political weaknesses of their enemies

[00:21:57] Now in the case of Britain they tried it tried to create uprisings in Ireland and also in India

[00:22:05] In the case of Russia, I mean their weakness was just the underlying

[00:22:10] current of revolution that was there that they could transport Lenin across from Switzerland to Finland to where he can get back into

[00:22:18] Russia and and bring about the revolution that took place and

[00:22:23] That was part of what they were doing in terms of the United States

[00:22:27] They saw in the case of this Witzke mission. They yeah, Kurt Yankee was a very smart very clever and very smart person

[00:22:35] and he had lived in America for over a decade and he really understood the American psyche very well and

[00:22:41] he could recognize the weaknesses in the American society and

[00:22:45] particularly

[00:22:46] there were there were a

[00:22:48] lot of racial disturbances and

[00:22:52] Unrest and incidents that had occurred and that was one of the things that he wanted to take advantage of in this Witzke mission

[00:22:58] Yeah, well you mentioned those racial tensions. How did he want to sort of exploit them?

[00:23:03] How did they go about that? Well, what had happened was with the increase of war production

[00:23:09] combined with

[00:23:11] Americans of draft a of service age going into the army and armed services

[00:23:16] There was a big labor shortage

[00:23:18] particularly northern cities in the United States and

[00:23:21] The people who owned munitions plants and meat packing plants and things like that due to this labor shortage were bringing

[00:23:28] Black American citizens from the south to work in their plants in in northern cities and this was a time

[00:23:35] I mean, it's very unlike today. This is a time and when I mean in 1918

[00:23:40] There were there were 64 recorded lynchings of black Americans in the United States. It was a terrible period

[00:23:46] So having lesser paid black employees competing for jobs and for housing with white employees

[00:23:53] In certain cities it became almost all you needed was a spark to set off a serious

[00:24:00] racial racial violence and that is what occurred in several places in East st. Louis in East st.

[00:24:08] Louis, Illinois

[00:24:09] There was a terrible racial incident in which 75 to 250 blacks were killed in

[00:24:15] 312 houses were destroyed

[00:24:18] in Chester, Pennsylvania

[00:24:20] Seven blacks were killed and hundreds injured in another incident also took place in 1917

[00:24:28] In Houston, Texas

[00:24:30] due to

[00:24:32] Incidents being created by the whites in Houston, Texas

[00:24:36] There was a mutiny of a unit of the of the American army a black unit. This is a segregated army at the time

[00:24:43] In which they as a result of what had happened to them. They attacked Houston

[00:24:48] So yonkey is looking at this and saying wow, you know

[00:24:51] We can we can really use this to disrupt the american war movement

[00:24:55] We can cause problems that again is gonna will take away from the troops going over to europe

[00:25:00] They'll be guarding things if all sorts of incidents are happening. So part of what witzke's mission will be

[00:25:06] using

[00:25:08] An agent who will be involved in doing this

[00:25:12] Is to try to create a mutiny in a black unit in Arizona

[00:25:17] And also to create some sort of an insurrection or uprising of blacks in the south in the united states

[00:25:24] And he had a very involved in terms of what he would be told to do on his terror mission his orders

[00:25:30] Um, it was just amazing the things what they expected him to do

[00:25:34] He was to destroy american defense plants

[00:25:36] He was to organize strikes in critical industries like copper and zinc mining

[00:25:42] He was to create this terror try to create this terrible racial violence in the united states

[00:25:48] And he was also the last thing he was told to do was to assassinate an american military intelligence officer named byron butcher

[00:25:56] He was to kill him in cold blood as part of his mission. Yeah

[00:25:59] Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll be right back

[00:26:02] So, um, so witzke was tasked to going to nogales near the u.s border in arizona

[00:26:25] Can you talk to us about his mission and his little journey from mexico city to nogales? Okay, sure

[00:26:31] um, yeah their mission began in mexico city and

[00:26:36] Witzke was assisted by two other agents

[00:26:40] Um paul bernardo altendorf and a man named william gleaves

[00:26:45] And together the three of them were to leave mexico city and go across central mexico by rail

[00:26:51] um to menzanillo where they would

[00:26:55] Get onto a small steamship to mazatlan along the western mexican coast

[00:27:02] Then go back across mexico to hermosillo to nogales

[00:27:07] And from nogales and there are two nogales is nogales sonora in northern mexico and right across the border is nogales, arizona

[00:27:15] and

[00:27:16] Again, he had been he'd been tasked to do all these things and during this

[00:27:20] This long journey they had all sorts of adventures. They were attacked by bandits at one point

[00:27:25] Um, there was a potential for more sabotage being created along the way

[00:27:30] They went to hermosillo and met with the governor of hermosillo

[00:27:34] A man named plataco alias kayas who one day would become the president of mexico

[00:27:40] And he provides witzke with a smith and wesson revolver that he'll use to that

[00:27:45] The plan is for him to use to kill byron butcher when they reach

[00:27:50] um no nogales

[00:27:52] They kind of break off into each of their different assignments

[00:27:56] Um altendorf is going to sort of stay in mexico and as this um operation unfolds

[00:28:04] He will handle the communications with mexico city and let yankee know what's going on

[00:28:09] As the as the mission progresses

[00:28:12] Gleeves is going to work with um

[00:28:16] the iww union members in the united states who were

[00:28:21] Some they're believed to be sympathizers of the german cause in creating destruction and and um

[00:28:27] strikes in american plants

[00:28:30] witzke

[00:28:31] Is meeting with potential saboteurs?

[00:28:34] And recruiting them for doing sabotage against defense plants in the united states

[00:28:39] So all this is going on just before he crosses the border

[00:28:43] and in late january when he does cross the border he's actually going to nogales to set up bank accounts because he's

[00:28:50] Carrying a lot of cash. He'll assumed have five thousand dollars which was a tremendous amount of money back then

[00:28:55] And only a revolver for protection

[00:28:57] So he's going to open a bank account on the american side of the border that he can help to to fund some of these

[00:29:04] Activities that are going on and at that time he gets captured by uh, us army military intelligence

[00:29:10] Yeah, so can you just tell us a little bit about he had this sort of target which is a man named byron butcher

[00:29:15] Can you just tell us about who he was sure pyrron butcher is a very interesting individual

[00:29:19] Uh in 1916 he had been recruited into us army military intelligence

[00:29:25] Before that he had been a journalist and among other things he covered

[00:29:30] The mexican revolution for a newspaper in arizona

[00:29:33] And in the course of this he became very familiar with some of the leaders of of mexico

[00:29:39] A person named alvaro alvaro obregon who will be elected president of mexico twice. He becomes very good friends with

[00:29:47] Um as well as other mexican leaders

[00:29:50] Butcher had lived in mexico for many years and he spoke spanish fluently

[00:29:55] And so he was noticed by a bureau investigation

[00:30:00] leader

[00:30:01] Named major robert barnes who became a military intelligence

[00:30:06] Officer during world war one and he recruited byron butcher into us army military intelligence

[00:30:12] Now while he was in us army military intelligence, he was both running operations covert operations into mexico

[00:30:19] For the us army and at the same time he was kind of keeping his job as a reporter

[00:30:24] And using stories that he would write and would be published and picked up by news services around the world

[00:30:31] To attack the germans and to expose their plans

[00:30:35] When they captured someone

[00:30:38] They would explain, you know what the germans had been up to

[00:30:41] And it was sort of like a secondary thing to to actually running these operations that he would actually use his his new his

[00:30:48] Journalist capabilities to also disrupt them and there was a man named william chapman who sort of threatened whiskey's plan to kill

[00:30:56] Butcher, can you just talk to us a little bit about william chapman?

[00:30:59] William edgar chapman was the u.s consul in mazatlan

[00:31:03] And he was a very dedicated very resourceful member of the u.s state department

[00:31:08] And he was both

[00:31:10] engaged in trying to disrupt

[00:31:13] They they had something at that time. Um, that was called the blacklist

[00:31:18] Which were product businesses and individuals in countries like mexico that u.s businesses were not allowed to do business with

[00:31:26] They were not allowed to trade with and there was an enemy trading list

[00:31:29] That prevented an american businessman from doing our business person from doing business with a german company or a german national

[00:31:38] In mexico, so he was enforcing the blacklist and at the same time he was disrupting

[00:31:43] German espionage operations whenever he could

[00:31:47] There was a case where there was a person who was planning on going back to the united states as a saboteur

[00:31:53] And he was able to expose him and allow him to be picked up by the authorities when he came into the united states

[00:31:59] so he is a very

[00:32:03] Supportive

[00:32:05] Person in terms of military intelligence and a re a resource for american agents who are coming through mazatlan

[00:32:12] To help them disrupt german activities

[00:32:15] Yeah, yeah

[00:32:16] So can you talk a little bit about witz's arrival at the u.s mexican border and sort of what happened because he wasn't

[00:32:22] Successful in his mission in killing butcher was he no he wasn't well the u.s army military intelligence

[00:32:28] Had penetrated the german espionage establishment. They had agents that were watching and reporting on what was going on

[00:32:35] So by the time witzky reaches nogales sonora to prepare to go across the border into nogales, arizona

[00:32:43] He's under around-the-clock surveillance. They've actually placed an agent in his hotel and is monitoring his activities around the clock and telling

[00:32:51] Butcher back in arizona what was going on at each case?

[00:32:55] So when witzke finally crosses the border

[00:32:59] Butcher had been hoping that he would be able to get him with his with the documents and evidence in hand

[00:33:04] But he he he is arrested at the bank

[00:33:08] As he's about to put money into the bank account to use to support the operations

[00:33:12] Yeah, yeah

[00:33:13] And obviously after his arrest butcher sort of crossed the border to witzke's hotel room to get holders of vital information

[00:33:20] Which was held there. Can you talk to us about what he found?

[00:33:23] Yeah

[00:33:24] Witzke was not carrying anything that would compromise him when he was in arizona

[00:33:29] He he was

[00:33:31] Based on what he had on him and what he was saying

[00:33:33] He was no more guilty of being a german agent than anyone else in in nogales arizona that day walking along that street

[00:33:40] So butcher knew that he must have documents. He must have plans for this operation and they had to be back at his hotel

[00:33:48] In mexico

[00:33:49] so he and another military intelligence officer went across the border into mexico and

[00:33:57] The description was after greasing a few palms

[00:34:00] They were able to get witzke's suitcase from his hotel room and go through it

[00:34:04] And in addition to clothes and and toiletries and things like that. They also found the revolver that um

[00:34:11] caes had given him for assassinating butcher and they also found

[00:34:16] Um his coded identification credential and a code a list of code words that he was going to use

[00:34:23] While this operation was going on and obviously convicting spies is not easy and he just mentioned when witzke was arrested

[00:34:29] He didn't really have anything on him

[00:34:31] So, um, can you talk to us about sort of his court marshal and what evidence was used against him during the court marshal?

[00:34:39] There were a number of of witnesses

[00:34:41] um who

[00:34:44] Explained everything that he'd been doing they they'd been along

[00:34:48] Some of them had had been engaged in the operation and could say exactly what happened along the way

[00:34:53] um, there were people that he

[00:34:56] Butcher for example testifies as to what he saw

[00:35:00] uh the u.s consul in nogales testified that what what he had witnessed when witzke crossed the border

[00:35:08] But the most damning evidence against him was the coded credentials

[00:35:14] Um, and they were able to be they were

[00:35:17] deciphered and broken in kind of a brilliant way by

[00:35:22] American cryptanalysts

[00:35:24] Working for what was called mi8

[00:35:26] Which was the code breaking branch of military intelligence at the time

[00:35:30] And they decoded the message that said that he was and he had said that he owned this

[00:35:35] They they asked him is this yours when they first captured him. He said yeah it is

[00:35:39] And um after the message when it was decoded said that he was a german agent and to support and supply him

[00:35:46] And he was to present this to each consul that he went to and he could draw up to a thousand dollars

[00:35:51] They were told to give him up to a thousand dollars in cash if he asked for it and witzke's time in custody

[00:35:56] There was a sort of fear

[00:35:58] That he may attempt to escape. I don't know if you could talk to us about this sort of period of time

[00:36:02] Sure

[00:36:03] Witzke was the only german spy who was captured in world war one that was sentenced to death

[00:36:09] And he was confined to the cell at fort sam houston in houston, texas

[00:36:14] And he knew and his captors knew that his only chance of escaping

[00:36:18] Being hung what would be if he could escape

[00:36:22] And he started making several plans to try to escape

[00:36:25] Um small things were discovered in his cell notes and things like that

[00:36:29] He was going to be passing to people on the outside

[00:36:32] So he was under pretty pretty close surveillance while he was in a cell

[00:36:37] But he in august of 1919 even despite this

[00:36:41] Monitoring of his activities he and several confederates were able to break out of the prison and escape

[00:36:48] So how did witzke's arrest actually impact german intelligence operations in mexico and america?

[00:36:54] German intelligence operations in mexico from mexico

[00:36:58] Under kurt yanke continued as the war was winding down in europe

[00:37:02] And he there were additional things that he was he was working on additional side. He had he had a

[00:37:08] network of 20 agents

[00:37:10] Throughout the americas who were continuing to do things they were

[00:37:16] Had attacks against cattle and horses

[00:37:19] That were being sent to britain for use in the war effort

[00:37:23] There were sabotage activities that were going on

[00:37:26] The germans off on and off again

[00:37:30] Considered sabotaging the tempico oil fields in mexico, which was a major source of oil for the german navy

[00:37:38] So these activities continued

[00:37:41] Now witzke disappeared and the germans in mexico city had no idea what had happened to him until after the war

[00:37:48] Because his even his court martial was was secret and there was nothing in the newspapers about it

[00:37:54] And it wasn't until 1919 that anyone even found out that witzke had been captured

[00:37:59] But witzke had been kurt yanke's closest associate and very talented saboteur and an espionage

[00:38:08] individual

[00:38:09] So it would have been a major loss to kurt yanke

[00:38:12] That witzke had been captured after all he was the one that he was sending off on this mission to carry out all this activity

[00:38:19] And what ultimately happened to loathal witzke?

[00:38:22] Loathal witzke

[00:38:24] He was he was returned after after his escape. He was returned to his cell

[00:38:28] um

[00:38:29] and he was

[00:38:30] His his sentence was commuted by president wilson in 1920

[00:38:36] to

[00:38:37] life imprisonment at heart labor

[00:38:40] And this could have been due to a number of factors one that the war had been over for a couple of years. So

[00:38:46] um

[00:38:47] Maybe they thought well how much what is it really going to do to execute this spy two years after the war is over?

[00:38:54] in 1923

[00:38:56] um, he will be

[00:38:58] released pardoned by president coolidge

[00:39:02] On the understanding that he will never return to the united states and he's deported from the united states in 1923

[00:39:09] When he goes to europe to back to europe

[00:39:11] He actually joins with kurt yanke for some months in a private intelligence operation that kurt yanke has organized

[00:39:19] Then he joined something called the black reichswehr, which was the the secret german army that was created

[00:39:27] in violation of of versailles

[00:39:30] and then he joined the obvere and

[00:39:33] Into the 1930s and into the early 19 the world war two years

[00:39:39] He is an an obver member. He's still a lieutenant in the german navy

[00:39:44] And he runs espionage operations and sabotage missions

[00:39:48] into to england

[00:39:50] from france

[00:39:52] and at the end of the war he is again captured and served some time in a military prison after that surprisingly he becomes

[00:40:01] Um a politician he's he's hired. Um

[00:40:06] Goes into politics

[00:40:07] And then he later died. I believe it was 1963 he died

[00:40:13] And what happened to kurt yanke because he he's a fascinating guy. Yeah, he really is

[00:40:18] um

[00:40:19] Well, he he um after after the war he created again this this private intelligence organization that's providing information to the german government

[00:40:27] He also goes into politics and becomes a member of the prussian diet in uh somewhere around 1928 for two years

[00:40:36] And then he becomes an advisor to the german government to stressaman

[00:40:41] And he is believed to also at the same time. He was providing information to the germans

[00:40:46] He was also a soviet they believe he was a soviet agent for several years before world war two began

[00:40:52] um after the war began he he

[00:40:55] He created an information service and under uh rudolf hess

[00:41:00] And later he will join, uh the sd of heinrich himmler

[00:41:06] in the foreign intelligence section

[00:41:08] and

[00:41:09] During the early war years. He carried out secret missions

[00:41:12] um for the senior nazi leadership

[00:41:16] Including missions, um that had to do with german japanese involvement in world war two and what they should do should they

[00:41:24] Attack russia should they attack the united states?

[00:41:28] He will give information to the japanese secret service that will lead them to attack pearl harbor

[00:41:35] after the war

[00:41:37] he

[00:41:38] Was he had a large private estate in pomerania and he disappeared in 1945

[00:41:44] And no one knew what had happened to him and recently

[00:41:47] Evidence has been uncovered that he was actually taken to moscow

[00:41:51] and to be

[00:41:53] Debriefed and whatever information to get out of them and in 1950 was executed

[00:41:58] by the soviets in moscow it's kind of similar to the way that um

[00:42:02] Another leader of intelligence during world war one walter nikolai

[00:42:07] Who hadn't been a senior member of intelligence during world war two, but he had been during world war one

[00:42:12] He was also taken to to russia after the war and interrogated and died in russia also

[00:42:18] Interesting any indication of why kurt may have been an agent also for the communist and obviously then what led to his execution

[00:42:26] well

[00:42:27] in the british intelligence files, um of sis

[00:42:32] it says that they interviewed several people who said that he was believed to be a soviet agent in

[00:42:39] the the

[00:42:40] late 1920s

[00:42:42] And he had confided actually to witzke

[00:42:46] That he knew people in russia he knew

[00:42:49] molotov

[00:42:51] And he believed that when they just as he had sort of been scheming

[00:42:56] Prior to the war he believed that when the russians took over

[00:43:00] That he could ingratiate himself with the russians. I think and and be involved in an intelligence activity with them

[00:43:06] But I don't think it turned out that way

[00:43:08] No, no fair enough. And yeah, and obviously stalin was

[00:43:13] Totally suspicious of people so it might have fallen foul of all that too, right?

[00:43:17] So what was what is the sort of legacy of uh witz witzke's mission to the border today?

[00:43:23] Well, I think there's a there's a number of things we can learn from it

[00:43:25] Um, the first one is when you look at this and you can see what kind of damage

[00:43:30] Just a couple of people can do I mean, it's just phenomenal the amount of destruction that they carried about

[00:43:36] and it sort of

[00:43:38] Sort of reinforces the the need for for homeland security and making sure that people are of good character and good intentions

[00:43:45] When as they come into various countries both uk and in the united states

[00:43:50] I think another lesson is

[00:43:53] That our enemies will use our socioeconomic weaknesses just as the germans did during world war one

[00:44:00] And the importance of maybe you know guarding and ensuring everyone's civil rights that that something like that that happened during world

[00:44:07] War one couldn't happen again and we can see things like that today in in the foreign governments

[00:44:13] Manipulate attempted manipulation of social media. They're trying to do the same type of things and divide us

[00:44:19] So I think that's an important lesson of the mission as well. Yeah, definitely definitely

[00:44:23] Well, um, is there anything else you'd like to add about this fascinating sort of period of history that's important to you?

[00:44:29] um

[00:44:30] Well, again, it really is I found it to be just an amazing story

[00:44:35] It was it's kind of like a story that it starts and and it's it's like in a movie when you think okay

[00:44:40] Well now we've reached the end. Nope. He just escaped and it just it just keeps on going

[00:44:45] It's it's really a really amazing story

[00:44:47] Yeah, yeah

[00:44:48] Well, it's a fantastic book and I do highly recommend it to people and the photographs you got in there are very interesting as well

[00:44:55] Um, so, you know

[00:44:56] So well done to you for sort of digging into such an interesting and kind of not very well known part of history

[00:45:01] It's really great that you found this and sort of shed light on it. Thank you

[00:45:04] Where can listeners find out more about you and your work? Sure. I have a website bill mills author.com

[00:45:11] Where they can find out about myself and also um the other

[00:45:15] The agent of the iron cross the book that we've been discussing as well as some of the other books have written

[00:45:20] And there's also a facebook page on agent of the iron cross that also provides a great deal of information bill

[00:45:26] Thank you very much for joining me today. Thank you for your time on the show. Thank you chris. I'm great being here

[00:45:31] Thanks for listening this is secrets and spies