S8 Ep41: The reality behind “A Spy Alone” with Charles Beaumont

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[00:00:07] Lock your doors close the blinds change your passwords. This is Secrets and Spies

[00:00:27] Secrets and Spies is a podcast that dives into the world of espionage terrorism

[00:00:32] geopolitics and intrigue this podcast is produced and hosted by Chris Carr on today's podcast

[00:00:39] I'm joined by former MI6 officer turned author

[00:00:42] Charles Bermond and we discuss the factual influences behind his new novel a spy alone

[00:00:48] Please note that a Charles's requests have had to disguise his voice

[00:00:51] I hope that doesn't detract from our conversation

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[00:01:41] Charles welcome to the podcast

[00:01:43] Thanks great to be with you was great to have you on now you are

[00:01:47] Our first ever guest who's worked in the past for MI6, which is quite an amazing thing

[00:01:53] So thank you for joining us today. Well, it's great to be here. Excellent

[00:01:57] Now is there anything you can tell us about yourself before we kind of go into the main body of the interview

[00:02:03] probably not an enormous amount about my professional background, but

[00:02:07] As is going to be obvious. I'm British. I've got that background

[00:02:11] Worked in government service worked overseas in various places and then more recently I've taken to writing fiction

[00:02:20] Excellent. Excellent. And you've done an amazing job your book, I guess with your experience and stuff

[00:02:24] It just sort of really has that nice sort of feeling of

[00:02:27] Peeking behind the secret curtain, which is always the thing that I'm craving from from novels

[00:02:32] Which is a bit of a rarity. So it's nice to have that. Well, thank you. I'm delighted you've enjoyed it

[00:02:37] Yeah, thank you. Well, I suppose one question

[00:02:41] I don't again if you can answer this one, what was it that inspired you to sort of join MI6?

[00:02:47] To be honest with you. I think it was more a case of

[00:02:52] the opportunity

[00:02:54] became available and as you might imagine I was pretty intrigued by what it might involve and it's it's obviously a

[00:03:04] Fascinating very

[00:03:06] Challenging complicated job, but it was one that I was very very excited to be able to do

[00:03:11] Excellent. Excellent. Just a tip into some of your expertise

[00:03:14] Would you be able to give us just a brief overview of what the different intelligence services in Britain do and how they work

[00:03:20] with the Joint Intelligence Committee

[00:03:22] Definitely. Yep. So in Britain there are three intelligence agencies and the first thing to know about them is that they're all civilian

[00:03:31] Organizations, so these are not anything to do with the military

[00:03:34] Of course, they cooperate with them, but they're civilian organizations

[00:03:38] You've got the security service which is known as MI5 and that deals with domestic security issues

[00:03:46] In the past they did a lot of work on

[00:03:49] Counterterrorism particularly you can imagine the time of 7-7 and those sorts of attacks on the you know tube attacks and so on

[00:03:57] But historically they were very focused on

[00:04:01] Dealing with external espionage. So you can imagine in the Cold War

[00:04:06] Sort of Russian espionage in this country and I suspect that's become much more of a focus

[00:04:12] You know in the present day as well

[00:04:15] What's happening in the world? So that's MI5

[00:04:18] MI6 is an organization whose job it is to collect intelligence overseas

[00:04:24] To work internationally and again it is a civilian organization and it operates

[00:04:30] You know various places around the world and it tends to focus on human intelligence

[00:04:35] So that means you know, some people have this term humant and that means

[00:04:40] sources who are people people who have access to information who are sharing that information with

[00:04:46] You know with the British government for whatever reason that might be

[00:04:51] And again that that information is is collected in order to help our leaders politicians and so on make make the right decisions

[00:04:59] and then finally

[00:05:01] GCHQ

[00:05:02] the famous

[00:05:04] signals intelligence agency and so that is very much in the

[00:05:09] business of

[00:05:11] collecting

[00:05:13] Information that is sort of out there in the ether

[00:05:15] Whether it's

[00:05:19] Radio or some kind of computer type data, so those are the three

[00:05:25] UK intelligence agencies and then you mentioned the joint intelligence committee

[00:05:29] now that is a a body that sits at the heart of Whitehall and its job is to kind of fuse the

[00:05:37] different intelligence from these agencies because if you're a

[00:05:43] Minister a cabinet minister or even a prime minister

[00:05:46] You're obviously not going to have time to read individual intelligence reports from a single source

[00:05:51] What you need is a kind of fusion of of different?

[00:05:56] Intel sources into an overall assessment something that perhaps helps you understand the big picture

[00:06:02] And so that that's the work of the joint intelligence committee and then the committee itself has high high senior

[00:06:10] Members of the sort of public service who who assess these reports and sort of try to make judgments and give advice

[00:06:18] Yeah, the most brilliant thank you so much so let's have a quick look at your novel

[00:06:22] Can you just give us as a brief summary of what your novel is about and why you chose to write it?

[00:06:28] Yeah, so what I've done with this novel is I've taken

[00:06:32] the

[00:06:33] Historic Cold War idea of the Cambridge spy ring people will be familiar with the people such as Kim

[00:06:41] Philby guy Burgess and so on and these were young men

[00:06:44] This is you know in real history young men in the 1930s passed through Cambridge University and were recruited as

[00:06:52] fervent communists

[00:06:55] Ideological communists to to report to Russian intelligence

[00:06:59] But because they were all men of a certain sort of background and class they ended up having quite high positions in British society

[00:07:07] Kim Philby was in MI6 you had others who were in the foreign office and in other roles

[00:07:12] And and and they remained undiscovered for decades so that that's the historical context what I wanted to do in my novel

[00:07:19] Was to see if such a concept could exist in our modern era

[00:07:24] Obviously we're in an era where the idea of

[00:07:27] Sort of working for Russia because of communism or because of your belief in Russian values seems very improbable

[00:07:34] But perhaps there could be

[00:07:36] Other reasons that people might seek to cooperate with the Russian state

[00:07:41] So I set this spy ring originally in Oxford University just as a contrast a little

[00:07:48] And it begins in the 1990s so very much a post-cold war era

[00:07:53] And it tries to follow a similar trajectory that there is a group of people who have

[00:08:01] Gone through that sort of elite educational institution and then ended up in high positions in British society today

[00:08:08] And the novel most of the action of the novel takes place in right now in the contemporary era

[00:08:14] Yeah, yeah

[00:08:15] And one of the interesting differences between the Cambridge spy ring and the one that you've sort of created

[00:08:20] No, it's not a major spoiler. There's sort of a slight right wing twist to it or rather that big left-wing inspire

[00:08:26] yeah, and I think that reflects on the

[00:08:31] the contemporary politics of

[00:08:33] Russia Russia has become a

[00:08:36] nationalist socially conservative

[00:08:39] kind of

[00:08:41] Sovereign test country that is obsessed with its with its power with its military power with its sense of its own

[00:08:50] Right to dominate its neighbors and obviously particularly with the case of Ukraine

[00:08:54] We're seeing that unfolding at the moment and what you see this in real life

[00:08:59] You know setting aside my novel for a moment in real life at the moment

[00:09:03] You do see that certain figures on the right not necessarily in Britain

[00:09:08] But certainly in Europe and America North America will sometimes publicly be supportive of Russia

[00:09:16] The national front in France we've seen it with some of the people in the US Congress who seem not remotely interested in

[00:09:24] supporting and defending Ukraine

[00:09:27] We've seen it in other countries. And so so yes rather than this being a kind of leftist Marxist idea

[00:09:34] It's somehow drifted into the territory of sort of right-wing nationalism

[00:09:40] Well, I'd like to explore some of the real world topics

[00:09:42] We've kind of already done a little bit there which is great

[00:09:44] So one the first thing Simon is working in the world of private intelligence and so I'm sorry protagonist Simon

[00:09:50] he's working a lot of private intelligence and

[00:09:52] Is it a kind of a common thing these days that former intelligence officers kind of move into the private sector?

[00:09:58] And what kind of things do private intelligence companies do? Yeah

[00:10:02] So so thanks for mentioning that for my protagonist as you say Simon Sharman. He is

[00:10:08] He's not a serving intelligence officer he's he's quite a long time out of the the service

[00:10:15] And he's in the private sector and I took that decision because I wanted to situate this book in a world

[00:10:22] But is very familiar London is the global capital of private intelligence

[00:10:26] I've been calling corporate intelligence and to answer your question directly quite a lot of former intelligence officers

[00:10:32] Work in this sector and what they tend to do is provide information

[00:10:38] to

[00:10:39] businesses, you know to private clients

[00:10:43] that might be

[00:10:45] hard to access so a case study might be perhaps a

[00:10:50] Private bank is considering taking on a new client. Maybe it's an ultra wealthy individual could be a member of a you know

[00:10:58] Royal family somewhere or a billionaire and they want to ascertain whether or not

[00:11:04] that individuals wealth is is a presents a

[00:11:09] Reputational risk or possibly even a money laundering risk or some kind of other compliance risk

[00:11:15] And so private intelligence businesses will provide a sort of enhanced due diligence

[00:11:21] You know that they'll do an analysis of that client and their background and and maybe you know

[00:11:26] How they how they got their wealth and so on so that's a sort of one example

[00:11:31] Another example might be more in the kind of political information space

[00:11:35] So you could imagine a business planning to set up a new

[00:11:40] New joint venture in a in a country where perhaps the politics are quite unpredictable

[00:11:45] Perhaps it's a sort of emerging market Middle East or Africa something like that

[00:11:49] And you might seek to get a sense of the political environment and what the chances are of

[00:11:56] policies changing that would go against you and

[00:12:00] And then the final area is is the sort of investigative work

[00:12:04] So private private intelligence is sometimes called private investigations and and that might be about you know

[00:12:12] Money that's gone missing or a fraud or a dispute over the ownership of some asset and that sort of thing

[00:12:18] so that those are some sort of case studies of

[00:12:20] Of the work that exists in this sector and as I mentioned London is very much a global hub for this sort of work

[00:12:28] What's interesting as well look with the character of Simon?

[00:12:31] He has this is Raymond Chandler kind of Philip Marlowe cynicism a bit about the sort of world

[00:12:36] He's in now he sort of talks a little bit about how some former

[00:12:40] Sort of spooks or kind of colleagues of his have to work for Russians and people in the private intelligence and may have even

[00:12:47] Undermined the very country that they were once working for yeah

[00:12:52] That is sadly definitely something that's happened in the real world you you look at

[00:12:58] that there have been case studies of

[00:13:02] Russian oligarchs who've since the Ukraine war being sanctioned so we shouldn't be in any doubt about

[00:13:07] You know what they're up to and how close they were to Putin and those people have been able to hire

[00:13:14] Businesses in London to you know snoop on their opponents

[00:13:20] Notorious case I think a British journalist's home address was was you know looked up and

[00:13:27] released by one of these companies so

[00:13:31] That's you know that seems to be an issue

[00:13:34] How important is sort of human intelligence today versus sort of signals intelligence and other methods and is human intelligence still even?

[00:13:42] Relevant or even possible because we're now moving into this world as sort of AI enhanced digital surveillance. We've got biotechnology

[00:13:49] I mean, you know people is very difficult for to fake a passport these days and so on yeah, that's a good point certainly

[00:13:56] the the sort of

[00:13:58] biodata or

[00:14:01] Personal data almost everybody certainly in the kind of Western world anybody who lives any kind of online life

[00:14:08] You

[00:14:10] Couldn't pretend to be someone else for very long

[00:14:14] Even if you keep off social media yourself your face will have been

[00:14:18] photographed at numerous borders and all that kind of thing so so I certainly think

[00:14:25] elements of that world have changed significantly, but ultimately if you think about what human intelligence is it's about

[00:14:32] One person having knowledge of a certain thing and sharing that knowledge with another person

[00:14:38] And in that very simple context, it's not hard to imagine cases where a

[00:14:44] Human may be the only person who can have access to certain information though

[00:14:49] If you think of a big political question, let's say the date of the general election in Britain this year now

[00:14:57] It may be that the Rishi Sunak doesn't know but let's say he knows and he's only told one person

[00:15:03] And that one person has kept that information to themselves that's a great example of where human intelligence

[00:15:09] You know you I'm not for a moment suggesting this would happen

[00:15:13] But if you had hacked into his computer or hacked into his phone

[00:15:16] You know, you might not find any information at all that lets you know that

[00:15:21] but actually if you had somebody who'd had a conversation with Rishi Sunak and

[00:15:27] Confirmed that they were planning

[00:15:29] I don't know. Let's say they're planning the election in October and they picked a date

[00:15:33] But they haven't shared that with anyone. That's an example of where humans still has a role to play. So I think

[00:15:40] Whilst certainly the the way in which so much of our lives is now

[00:15:46] effectively an online digital life

[00:15:49] That has changed intelligence, but it hasn't it hasn't ended the validity of certain types of intelligence

[00:15:55] Yeah, that makes sense and it gives you an insight into intent as well because like I don't know should a country suddenly

[00:16:02] Have a whole lot of new nuclear weapons. We want to know what they want to do with it. Don't we?

[00:16:07] Yeah, I mean or if you take the

[00:16:10] example of the Ukraine war I would imagine that a huge question which probably could only be answered and

[00:16:17] To be clear to any listener

[00:16:18] I'm not saying I know the answer but the only answer probably could come from human intelligence would be

[00:16:23] What Vladimir Putin sees as his own bottom line because

[00:16:28] Does I doubt he really thinks he's going to wipe Ukraine off the map?

[00:16:32] I mean, obviously they might talk about that publicly

[00:16:35] but the attempt to seize key right at the beginning of the war failed and

[00:16:39] As we both know there's a bit of a stalemate there in the sort of Donbass region

[00:16:44] So what is what's he hoping for?

[00:16:46] You know, is he does he want to draw a line roughly where the front line is now and

[00:16:52] Force Ukraine to accept that does he have ambitions to push back, you know further into into Ukraine

[00:17:00] You know, maybe he does maintain ambitions to take key, but that's a sort of thing that probably

[00:17:07] It isn't written down anywhere because ultimately it's something that if he were to communicate that widely

[00:17:13] Of course, it would shape the way that other people don't deal with him. So so I you know, it's

[00:17:19] Questions that can only be answered by somebody who's in the know remain very important questions often

[00:17:24] Yeah, yeah, definitely definitely and how does an intelligence officer kind of go about recruiting an asset to spy for them?

[00:17:31] Because quite an interesting and complex relationship

[00:17:34] Absolutely

[00:17:35] In in the book I write a you know, obviously it's a completely fictional case study, but somebody who

[00:17:43] Has a relationship with British intelligence over the years a Russian asset who then sort of falls out with British intelligence and

[00:17:52] that happens to some extent because he

[00:17:56] He sees sort of pride and

[00:18:00] kind of national

[00:18:03] He sees pride in the way that Russia has sort of regained its sense of kind of national status

[00:18:10] Whereas of course most people in the world see that as a threat and it might be rightly so

[00:18:18] But you could imagine a situation where

[00:18:21] somebody in the chaotic Russia of the early 90s

[00:18:25] felt that perhaps cooperating with a foreign government was helping Russia to

[00:18:31] sort of establish its

[00:18:34] Future and sort of get back on track whereas maybe that person nowadays would would say that

[00:18:41] Russia Russia is now being sort of taken down and sort of held back by hostile powers

[00:18:47] So to answer your question more directly people's motivations as you say are very complex. Sometimes people want money

[00:18:54] Sometimes people have an ideological reason perhaps they they feel profoundly

[00:18:59] Opposed to what their own country is doing sometimes perhaps it is a desire to have great influence that you know

[00:19:07] You may you could imagine someone who in their own system is perhaps doesn't have much influence over their hierarchy

[00:19:15] Through being an intelligent source for another country

[00:19:18] So if we by being an intelligent source for another country

[00:19:21] Yeah is able to impact the leadership and the decisions that are made by that leadership

[00:19:26] So a lot, you know human motivation just as in any other walk of life

[00:19:31] It is very complex and unique and in a way

[00:19:33] I think that's why it makes quite a good subject for novels because the reasons that people do things are

[00:19:40] Buried in the complexity of their characters. Yeah, definitely from a lot of sort of Cold War history. I've read a lot of

[00:19:48] Russian spies work for the West some of them tend to tend to either be

[00:19:52] Sort of a bit disgruntled because they'd been passed up for a promotion or

[00:19:57] Over time like with Oleg Gordievsky. They kind of became disgusted with the direction Russia had gone in

[00:20:03] And sort of fell out with the ideology of Russia. So it's yeah

[00:20:07] Yeah, I think that's right and I think during the Cold War

[00:20:10] you saw what was what might be called a sort of classic motivation, which is very ideological because

[00:20:17] It would be hard to imagine that you would take that level of risk particularly for a Russian

[00:20:25] You know, but almost all Russians who were caught spying ended up being executed during the Cold War

[00:20:30] And probably, you know horribly tortured and all the rest of it

[00:20:33] So so if you're willing to take that level of risk, you probably wouldn't be doing it for for sort of short-term

[00:20:40] You know

[00:20:41] You know desire to just to get rich or something like that. You'd have to have a very fundamental

[00:20:47] Ideological reason but as you say the sort of disgruntlement people who feel that their

[00:20:53] talents and insight

[00:20:55] Haven't been sufficiently recognized

[00:20:59] But perhaps they feel that they're being recognized in this other way

[00:21:04] Comes back that idea I have that you could you could feel that you can have influence and via

[00:21:09] Intelligence on another country and that might be quite a powerful motivator. I think yeah people want to feel important don't they?

[00:21:15] Yeah, yeah, and especially I think middle-aged men sometimes gets this point where they feel like oh my goodness

[00:21:21] I got no influence know anything maybe speak for myself here

[00:21:24] And and and suddenly like being an international spy just sounds like wow, you know

[00:21:33] Genuinely, I don't know the answers. I wouldn't be surprised if quite a lot of

[00:21:37] intelligent sources

[00:21:40] That wouldn't be shocking if we learned that yeah, no D, but they certainly read a lot of the spy books out there

[00:21:48] Something there in that

[00:21:50] So the one thing I have found I do find fascinating is that relationship between the intelligence officer and their asset

[00:21:56] I've even made a short film about that

[00:21:58] And there's this sort of bond of trust that's required in that relationship

[00:22:02] But it's sort of in a world of deception where you can't really trust anybody

[00:22:05] So I suppose how do you know if someone's actually being honest once you've recruited them

[00:22:09] Well, that's a great question and the answer might be you don't if we take a very famous and publicly

[00:22:19] Vowed case study is is the Iraq

[00:22:23] WMD intelligence now obviously a lot of that turned out to be to be incorrect turned out to be made up basically

[00:22:31] and it appears that the

[00:22:34] Resources of that intelligence perhaps were what telling their case officer what they wanted to hear

[00:22:41] probably being paid handsomely for it and

[00:22:45] and

[00:22:46] clearly the

[00:22:48] Initially at least the ability to work out that these people were making it up

[00:22:53] Did not come through now, of course there are there are things that are done the

[00:22:58] The Americans make use of a polygraph, you know lie detector tests and quite quite wide used to that

[00:23:05] Obviously one of the best ways is to get a level of corroboration

[00:23:11] so if you receive an intelligence report from a certain source and

[00:23:15] Then let's say there are three other sources up, you know all of which in a different way

[00:23:20] Maybe one is a another human source, but not connected

[00:23:23] Maybe the other one is you know signals intelligence or imagery or who knows, you know

[00:23:28] If you can triangulate then clearly that that's a very good validation another thing if someone says I don't know

[00:23:36] I work in the office of the the Ministry of Defense and they can produce

[00:23:41] Documents that come from that office that again is a way of sort of validating what they do

[00:23:47] So there are different ways but but undoubtedly

[00:23:50] You don't know and as you say that one of the challenges with intelligence is that

[00:23:57] The whole relationship is based in this action

[00:24:00] It's it's by definition

[00:24:03] You're you're asking the source to do something and you're asking them not to tell anyone else because you you're trying to protect them

[00:24:09] You don't want them to be exposed but you're in this scenario where everyone is lying to everyone about something

[00:24:17] and of course

[00:24:19] Human relationships and it's something I have in the novel, you know

[00:24:23] All human relationships have have layers of deception in them

[00:24:26] You know, even the best most trusting and honest, you know partnership that it still has layers of deception

[00:24:34] It maybe it's just a deception of someone saying oh you do look lovely, you know

[00:24:40] Quite but but you know, we all we all do this and

[00:24:45] So I think it's I think

[00:24:48] Managing

[00:24:49] the layers of deception and trying to get it at an underlying truth is

[00:24:54] Basically the sort of biggest challenge of all human intelligence

[00:24:58] The book opens on a great counter surveillance scene in which Simon spots a tail

[00:25:03] Can you talk just a bit about the art of counter surveillance and why it's important for an intelligence officer?

[00:25:08] To use it before meeting a source

[00:25:11] Yeah

[00:25:11] so the basic thing is that if you're if you're meeting a source or doing something else and you don't want to be observed

[00:25:17] Obviously you need to make sure that you are being observed

[00:25:22] and

[00:25:23] in particular the

[00:25:26] Somebody who might be working in a hostile environment

[00:25:30] Where you don't control the ground so

[00:25:34] Maybe you're in a foreign country or maybe you're in a in a city that that is, you know controlled by a

[00:25:40] Hostile criminal group or something

[00:25:42] You can't just sort of rely on the police or some other colleagues or something to sort of control control the setting

[00:25:48] so that's the basic concept of of

[00:25:51] Anti surveillance of you know checking to see if you're being tailed

[00:25:56] The way in which it's done in the end is is relatively

[00:26:02] Intuitive in the sense that you you do have to look around you know

[00:26:06] You do have to see if you've spotted someone you do have to see if you see that person a second time

[00:26:10] You have to see if that person's behavior is is not

[00:26:16] You know

[00:26:17] Illogical or in some other way suspicious

[00:26:19] But obviously you want to do that in a way that doesn't draw attention to yourself

[00:26:23] So you must appear to be natural at all times

[00:26:26] And so in a way, that's the big the big tension is is giving yourself the excuse

[00:26:33] To sort of look around behind you without just standing in a street and turning around if if you or I was walking down

[00:26:40] The road and someone ahead of us stopped turn around and stared at us. We immediately think well, that's pretty weird

[00:26:46] But if perhaps if someone went into a shop

[00:26:49] For 20 seconds came back out and looked both ways and then you know carried on down the street

[00:26:55] That seems quite normal behavior. So it's those sorts of things

[00:26:58] It's almost like a kind of acting where you're you're behaving in a certain way

[00:27:03] In order to appear natural

[00:27:06] Whilst using that to give yourself the opportunity to take a look at what's happening around you. Yeah. Yeah, it's a fascinating area

[00:27:13] So I many years ago made a short film this

[00:27:16] there's called the dry cleaner that's all about it opens with this sort of anti-surveillance scene and

[00:27:23] I got the idea from a couple of books one of them Oleg Gordievsky's book and I've always found it such a

[00:27:29] Fascinating thing and I liked your notes in your book about and the people who are following you might better change their clothes

[00:27:35] But he probably won't be able to change their shoes

[00:27:38] Yeah, so that's like so I have that sort of in the opening sequence and and this idea that of course

[00:27:43] Yeah

[00:27:44] Someone can put on a could put on a cap or a wig or change their coat

[00:27:48] And of course these days something that occurred to me recently

[00:27:51] It's it's become not that abnormal to wear a face mask now a few years ago

[00:27:56] Someone wearing a face mask was a really odd, you know that stood out

[00:28:01] Whereas now a bit less common than it was two years ago

[00:28:04] But you don't immediately think well that suspicious behavior. You just think that somebody who's got good reason to

[00:28:11] To safeguard their health. So so now of course that makes it very hard to recognize, you know

[00:28:15] So I think there are lots of ways in which

[00:28:18] The evolution of normal of social norms affects this this very sort of basic activity

[00:28:24] No, indeed indeed and I imagine as well now if you're in a country with really good CCTV

[00:28:30] It must make it harder as well for the intelligence officer when doing their sort of dry cleaning drills and stuff

[00:28:35] Yeah, I mean, I think I think if we'd be very honest

[00:28:39] This is this is quite a sort of traditional activity and in the modern era

[00:28:43] accommodation of CCTV and

[00:28:46] Mobile phones which are broadcast our location constantly now obviously you don't have to have a mobile phone on you

[00:28:53] You don't you can go to places where there isn't CCTV so that it's

[00:29:00] It may not be impossible, but it's definitely that the challenges are getting much harder and the other thing is drone technology

[00:29:08] It's very easy for someone to

[00:29:11] To put a drone up in the air which has extraordinary

[00:29:15] Quality of imagery now you you might not get away of doing that in the center of a busy town

[00:29:20] But you can imagine that there's a lot of ways in which it gets harder for the individual to disappear

[00:29:30] Compared with perhaps 50 years ago. Yeah. Yeah indeed indeed

[00:29:33] And there's a quite a fun show on channel four called it hunted where they follow members of public and they show like

[00:29:40] The drones being used all that kind of stuff. So it gives you a taste of how difficult it is these days

[00:29:45] Yeah, indeed. I think that's a great show because it makes it makes you stop and think

[00:29:49] You know in a normal day

[00:29:51] How many times do I do something where without choosing to I communicate where I am and what I'm doing

[00:29:57] To to maybe hundreds of people who I don't know who they are, you know, I swipe my card

[00:30:02] I I do contact this I I

[00:30:05] You know do something online which which is which is a website that knows my location because it needs to function and all

[00:30:11] That stuff and of course that is how we now live our lives

[00:30:14] And so

[00:30:15] If if you have a reason not to want to share that knowledge clearly you have to think very hard about

[00:30:22] More than just where am I standing right now, but all kinds of other elements of what you're doing

[00:30:28] Indeed indeed. Well, thank you for that. Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll be right back

[00:30:42] See your books touches on this interesting topic of rich

[00:30:53] Russian oligarchs who enjoy the trappings of life in the UK and the use of the legal and financial system to their advantage

[00:30:59] And what was sort of your inspiration for that? Well, I think

[00:31:04] There that has been a feature of British public life

[00:31:09] It's been a feature of the political debate in our country

[00:31:12] And I certainly think up until the start of the full-scale invasion in Ukraine

[00:31:18] It was really an unaddressed question

[00:31:21] Yeah, we had there was the famous Russia report from the Parliamentary Intelligence and Security Committee

[00:31:29] Which as I'm sure your listeners given their interest will be aware was sort of sat on for some time

[00:31:35] It wasn't released. There was a debate about whether or not that was because the government found it embarrassing

[00:31:42] And there's been this big question of the ease with which

[00:31:48] Certain Russians who appear to be very close to the leadership very close to the land of Mepun

[00:31:53] They even be part of the leadership. They could own

[00:31:57] Multi-million dollar properties in London. They could they could use the London

[00:32:03] Banking system to launder their money all those sorts of things

[00:32:06] So it seemed to me that that was a kind of serious issue and a very contemporary issue that

[00:32:12] That I felt was sort of worth worth addressing in the fiction

[00:32:17] Genre because it allows you to sort of explore in a fairly entertaining way

[00:32:22] and and what I like about that as well as grounded because of your knowledge because I think

[00:32:27] With authors who don't necessarily have as much real-world experience or have done the research. It can get a bit silly sometimes

[00:32:34] I think it's you know, one of my bug bears in contemporary spy fiction is it usually turns into

[00:32:41] Mi6 or the CIA the ultimate villain

[00:32:44] And it's just because people don't really know better and it's just a bit I find that a bit lazy now

[00:32:48] But yeah, I agree with you that sort of I find it tends to be more on the screen

[00:32:53] but there's always in the last episode you you find out that the conspiracies at home and

[00:32:58] No, obviously, I won't give away the spoiler for my book there. There is cynicism and conspiracy, but it's not of that nature

[00:33:06] And I feel that that that actually in a way

[00:33:10] There is something more insidious which is the normalization of certain types of economic activity

[00:33:17] Which has allowed

[00:33:20] In my view sort of degradation of our kind of public life

[00:33:24] And it's had lots of unintended consequences, of course

[00:33:27] and and in a way to try to understand that seems like a more important thing than than the idea that you know

[00:33:34] There's a sort of deep state inside job always going on

[00:33:37] Indeed indeed and I think

[00:33:40] You know with what you present in your book

[00:33:42] It seems more plausible and it reminds me of thinking some of the work of Luke Harding at The Guardian as well

[00:33:47] It certainly sort of ties in sort of nicely all those sort of things there. Yeah, he's a great journalist

[00:33:52] I he also was very complimentary about my books

[00:33:57] Excellent

[00:34:00] So it's been reported that Russian espionage efforts today are more prolific than maybe even during the Cold War

[00:34:05] Are things that bad?

[00:34:07] Well, I genuinely not gonna pretend I have the inside track and it is important to you know

[00:34:12] I've obviously got a background in those organizations, but I haven't been in them recently and I'm not

[00:34:18] But you know, the book is is a work of fiction

[00:34:20] It doesn't contain any state secrets and it couldn't be published if it did

[00:34:25] But I I think if you think about the sort of public reporting that we see we see lots of reports of

[00:34:32] Russian

[00:34:34] Online espionage of hacks, you know major hacks whether it's of

[00:34:38] You know software in US government servers or that kind of thing

[00:34:43] We also see tends to be in in countries where Russia feels less constrained

[00:34:49] We see, you know pretty pretty hardcore sort of GRU. That's Russian military intelligence activity

[00:34:56] Assassinations things like that. Let's not forget

[00:34:59] The assassination of Lutnenko in this country and then the attempted assassination of Sergei Skripal and

[00:35:06] possibly other, you know deaths that I think probably do remain unexplained and probably

[00:35:12] At least some of them must be put at Russia's door

[00:35:16] and

[00:35:17] Then the the political interference which some some remains

[00:35:23] Speculation but some is not in speculation. It's not in doubt that the Russians loaned money to the French National Front

[00:35:30] it's not a doubt that

[00:35:32] Austrian and Italian sort of right-wing politicians have had very

[00:35:36] Sort of deep relationships with with elements of the Russian state and you know

[00:35:42] There are other other case studies we could go on so I think I think it's pretty clear

[00:35:47] And in a way perhaps it wouldn't be surprising this is a country that's allowed itself to become very isolated

[00:35:54] In terms of its alliances and increasingly economically isolated

[00:35:59] It's pursuing this ruinous war in Ukraine

[00:36:02] So in a way it perhaps is not surprising that they're so heavily involved in espionage hostile espionage

[00:36:08] Activities. Yeah indeed

[00:36:10] Are you able to just give us a quick overview of the Russian intelligence services in which agencies sort of operate abroad? Yeah

[00:36:17] Okay, so so they have

[00:36:20] The main ones that will be of interest I think you have that as I mentioned the GIU

[00:36:25] Which is a military intelligence service and so the people in that are come through

[00:36:31] The military they are soldiers sailors or whatever

[00:36:34] But it operates

[00:36:37] In a variety of ways some of what it does is more of a sort of special forces special operations type work

[00:36:43] Other things that it does is more classic intelligence gathering

[00:36:47] So, you know running human sources and so on that operates both within Russia and and overseas

[00:36:55] but the

[00:36:56] there's a Russian agency called the SVR which came out of

[00:37:01] The original KGB which existed obviously in the Soviet era

[00:37:05] The SVR is specifically tasked with overseas intelligence

[00:37:10] collection and then you have the FSB federal security bureau, which

[00:37:17] Was is a successor to the old KGB and that is for the internal security of Russia

[00:37:23] But where it gets a bit complicated is that the FSB

[00:37:27] Also has responsibility on former Soviet states. So for example

[00:37:34] Very significant in the context of Ukraine it is widely believed that the FSB

[00:37:41] provided a series of

[00:37:45] Incorrect intelligence to Putin to lead him to believe that that Ukraine would collapse very quickly that there might be a kind of

[00:37:53] Coup or you know, but basically the Zelensky would not stand and fight but he jumped in a sort of you know

[00:38:00] Car and head for the hills

[00:38:02] And and it you know, there's been very interesting reporting suggesting that actually the FSB was was spending millions on

[00:38:11] sort of subalign

[00:38:13] Ukrainian officials who would then flip sides to Russia once the invasion began and either that money was being spent corruptly or

[00:38:21] Or misspent but clearly we all know that didn't happen in the event

[00:38:25] Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that one because I think I've read in books where sometimes

[00:38:29] Intelligence officers set up a fake agent and then give them lots of money. And in fact, they're pocketing

[00:38:34] yeah, and clearly, you know Russia's a very very corrupt country and and the

[00:38:40] The Russian intelligence officers

[00:38:45] And of course, you know if you look at Putin's own

[00:38:49] Sort of network it's based around his own

[00:38:52] Sort of you know brothers in arms as it were as a Putin comes from the FSB

[00:38:58] He he did work overseas in Germany, but he's he's effectively a sort of internal security guy

[00:39:05] And it's his people that he kind of grew up with at in St. Petersburg

[00:39:10] Who are some of the richest billionaires in Russia?

[00:39:13] And so this idea that

[00:39:15] Being in the intelligence agencies might make you quite a lot of money is is not a crazy idea. Whereas

[00:39:22] At the risk of sounding pious

[00:39:24] I'm you know, I don't think anyone in in the UK or the US thinks about some route to wealth

[00:39:30] Going in that type of public service. Yeah, definitely

[00:39:33] Definitely and my next question is what kind of cover to Russian intelligence officers used these days

[00:39:38] Are they still somebody works for the embassy? Or is it a bit more than that now?

[00:39:41] Well, I think it's pretty varied and you have to assume that there are plenty working in embassy

[00:39:46] But don't forget that there's been

[00:39:49] quite famous cases of expulsion

[00:39:52] of Russian intelligence officers, so for example after the screwpile poisoning

[00:39:58] There was this coordinated wave of expulsions of Russian intelligence officers

[00:40:05] Obviously from the UK but from countries all over the world across Europe North America and so on

[00:40:10] So that what that means is it gets harder now

[00:40:14] Obviously the Russians might try to send some new intelligence officers to work at the embassy

[00:40:18] But it gets harder as this goes on because these people's covers are blown

[00:40:22] But there will be Russian intelligence officers working in many different

[00:40:28] settings, you know one one element actually is

[00:40:32] The use of these mercenary companies so that the Wagner company

[00:40:37] Some of those people appear to be intelligence officers some of them may just be

[00:40:43] Former soldiers who are working as mercenaries you see it also in the context of the

[00:40:50] These kind of fake republics in eastern Ukraine that the Luhansk and Donetsk so-called people's Republic where you have

[00:41:00] Russian intelligence officers who somehow also have a have a official position in

[00:41:06] Those in those governments or you know quasi-governance

[00:41:10] So so I think what you see with the Russians is that they're quite

[00:41:14] Bring to be quite flexible about the way that they deploy people overseas and of course that the other one is is the use

[00:41:20] Of illegals this is where you have a person who lives for many years

[00:41:27] A normal life in another country, but that all that time that they are an undercover intelligence officer

[00:41:34] And that's something that the Russians have made a bit of a specialism of does it does the great sort of fictional portrayal of this

[00:41:40] Is the TV show the Americans?

[00:41:44] Obviously it's it's TV. It's quite dramatic

[00:41:47] There's more sex and violence than there probably is in real life, but it's as a context

[00:41:52] You know you've got this couple everyone thinks they're an American couple running a

[00:41:56] travel agency and they're also

[00:41:59] Undercover Russian agents and that that's a model but the Russians continue to operate

[00:42:05] Yeah, I don't think they'll get away with the wigs that they use

[00:42:09] They managed to be sort of five people in one day and just sort of pulling off the wig

[00:42:14] But

[00:42:17] They definitely they

[00:42:27] So well do Russia still use sleeper agents and could there be some in the UK today

[00:42:33] Well, there have been cases of

[00:42:36] These agents being uncovered in relatively recent times. I think

[00:42:41] There was a case I'm just trying to remember there was a case in Norway

[00:42:50] Nationality but they weren't you know, I mean that they'd started life in Russia and that they managed to acquire a

[00:42:57] New identity in Brazil and and and was working I think in a sort of defense

[00:43:03] You know defense studies type a university department

[00:43:08] So if they're in Norway, you know, we shouldn't be complacent and assume that they aren't here as well

[00:43:14] There was a lady in Greece. I think it was two years ago who was selling jewelry or something to

[00:43:20] Members of NATO something like she had a Brazilian passport. Yeah

[00:43:26] Yes, so sometimes they're quite unexpected because you know, you think of the guy in a defense policy

[00:43:33] That seems predictable but as you say sometimes they can be quite unexpected people might remember because it's a very sort of

[00:43:42] Glamorous kind of slot feels like a film movie this the woman called Anna Chapman. Oh, yes

[00:43:46] who she's she's now a

[00:43:50] Prominent politician back in Russia and in the son of Putin's party has become a sort of very nationalist figure and this rather

[00:43:57] sort of glamorous redhead and she lived as a

[00:44:01] Kind of what business she was in but it wasn't it wasn't something you immediately associate with that's been oh she lived in

[00:44:07] UK and I think America

[00:44:10] With with that with that kind of profile. So so yeah these these people could could use any number of different guises

[00:44:18] Yeah, yeah indeed indeed fun if I've always thought

[00:44:22] Photography would be a good cover for an undercovers

[00:44:24] Yeah

[00:44:28] Yeah, yeah

[00:44:30] So it's interesting on that one. So, um, obviously the Russians are in recruiting assets

[00:44:35] What kind of people they kind of looking for in the West do you think?

[00:44:39] Well, I think we have to be realistic that they probably find it quite difficult

[00:44:45] Obviously at the moment

[00:44:48] There aren't many

[00:44:50] Sort of places where Russia is in high esteem or if it is in high esteem

[00:44:54] It might be with people who have already made a decision to kind of step outside

[00:45:00] The norms of opinion and behavior and you know, I've mentioned

[00:45:05] examples of

[00:45:07] Politicians in the West who seem to be quite pro-russian but in the main they tend to be slightly on the fringe

[00:45:14] So I think having said that I think

[00:45:17] Um

[00:45:18] Where Russia seems to be quite effective is in the sort of information operations. So

[00:45:26] It's it may be journalist now. I wouldn't expect journalists in any kind of

[00:45:33] Credibles and mainstream publication, but we live in this environment where there's endless websites and blogs and and sometimes

[00:45:41] Something that might appear in in a fairly fringe publication and finds its way onto a mainstream

[00:45:50] Daily mail or whatever the story might have begun, you know off on the fringes. So I think

[00:45:57] I

[00:45:58] Imagine most of these recruitments are basically money based

[00:46:02] It's basically people people doing something in and being paid money to do it

[00:46:08] It's very hard to imagine a sort of ideological basis but where there is that ideology in that kind of nationalist

[00:46:17] Sort of populist nationalist

[00:46:19] element, I

[00:46:21] think that the

[00:46:24] The argument may be that it's not that we think you agree with us on everything

[00:46:29] But you think that our interests are aligned and you can see that appealing to some people and maybe almost the people deluding themselves

[00:46:36] I'm not supporting Russia, but I'm doing I'm pursuing my objectives and they happen to be ones that Russia agrees with

[00:46:42] You know, yeah

[00:46:43] Yeah

[00:46:43] I've always found what I find fascinating about Russia now and I don't know whether it's people being directly recruited

[00:46:49] But you kind of find there's a lot of people obviously on the far right

[00:46:52] So we talked about earlier in the right wing who are very sympathetic

[00:46:54] But they also seem to still appeal to these sort of far-left people from yes the past

[00:46:59] They'll find it's such an interesting kind of thing that yeah

[00:47:03] Some people talk about this sort of horseshoe where the far left and the far right end up having quite similar positions

[00:47:11] And in fact in my book, you know, I mean I do have one character

[00:47:14] He's on the far left who is sort of in that in that space and there are definitely people again

[00:47:20] You know whether they're recruited agents or maybe they are

[00:47:24] Because of their sort of sense of anti-imperialism

[00:47:27] I mean to me it's it's it's very bizarre that someone who thinks that they're an anti-imperialist doesn't recognize

[00:47:33] That what's happening to Ukraine is an imperial war

[00:47:37] there are people who make that argument all the time and

[00:47:41] And it's very it's a very convenient argument for Russia and sometimes you see these less so since 2022

[00:47:47] But you do you did see these people attend?

[00:47:50] Conferences hosted by Russia or funded by Russia or appear at forums and that sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah

[00:47:56] No, it's fascinating. I think the war in Ukraine has certainly changed things a little bit on that front now

[00:48:02] Especially the far left side of things. I think it's just remove the room for ambiguity

[00:48:07] So we're probably cynically in the past people could sort of say well, I don't necessarily agree with Russia

[00:48:12] But I it's important that we listen to each other or you know, you can come up with those kinds of

[00:48:17] Convenient framings and I think that's very hard to do now. Yeah. Yeah indeed indeed

[00:48:21] Well, you know as we've sort of this has been saying, you know the invasion of Ukraine assassinations abroad there's even

[00:48:29] accusations which sadly are contested but I think a true of interference in US elections in 2016

[00:48:35] You know, it feels like the late 90s optimism towards Russia is very much long gone now

[00:48:40] And we're kind of going into a new Cold War

[00:48:43] Some you know, some people even said Russia sees itself at war of the West whilst we don't so I guess

[00:48:49] How significant a threat is Russia to the West now at the moment and

[00:48:54] Do you think there are any hopes things could get better in time? Well, I think that the threat question

[00:49:01] I think it is very significant because

[00:49:04] Partly because the West is very disunited now. I mean you mentioned the US and

[00:49:09] Whether or not Russia did interfere and my own view I think the evidence is quite strong

[00:49:14] You know depending on you could argue about exactly what they did the evidence of of a level of interference in 2016 seems very strong

[00:49:23] We have a situation now where one of the candidates in the presidential election

[00:49:28] Donald Trump is pretty clear that he sees Russia's side of the argument

[00:49:35] particularly on the war in Ukraine and

[00:49:37] And there are plenty of other

[00:49:41] Republican politicians who certainly are hostile to the idea of supporting Ukraine now, maybe you know

[00:49:47] They will argue this not anything for Russia and it is for other reasons, but the effect is the same

[00:49:53] So so Russia looks at the West and sees a disunited West. It sees an America that is

[00:49:59] basically fed up with propping up Europe's security

[00:50:03] as

[00:50:04] Listeners will know that the current attempt to get an agreement through Congress to continue to support Ukraine

[00:50:10] Basically has failed

[00:50:11] So so you then turn to Europe and Europe is is it certainly it stood up much better than most people expected

[00:50:19] We have to recognize that you know, so let's not bury ourselves in doom

[00:50:23] Germany stepped up in a way that I think very few people predicted France also

[00:50:28] Italy under a very right-wing government has actually maintained its sort of commitment to NATO and so on

[00:50:34] So this isn't you know, it's not the end of the world

[00:50:38] Hungary is a problem Slovakia is a problem until recently

[00:50:42] You know you had you had some complexities in Poland or be it, you know, very hostile to Russia

[00:50:48] But but also quite quite sort of disconnected on elements of Western

[00:50:54] commitments

[00:50:56] So I think Russia feels that it can continue to divide

[00:51:01] opinion

[00:51:03] divide

[00:51:04] Divide the West now whether Russia has some

[00:51:09] Ambition to you know continue its military aggression past Ukraine. I think that's very hard to know

[00:51:15] I mean, it's clearly very tied down in Ukraine

[00:51:17] But one feels slightly as if the war in Ukraine has forced it into this kind of total war economy

[00:51:24] But it can't really do anything else now has to carry on carry on its walls

[00:51:28] So I think we have to take it very seriously. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah

[00:51:33] What was your reaction to the invasion of Ukraine was it a surprise to you or did you feel it's kind of inevitable?

[00:51:39] No, I didn't think it was inevitable. I think it was a surprise

[00:51:42] I think yes, there was a lot of intelligence pointing to it and I say, you know that was being read publicly

[00:51:48] That was a policy to do so

[00:51:51] but

[00:51:53] Would would he be that stupid? You know, that's the question because obviously the effect for Russia

[00:52:01] The economic impact that the loss the loss of maybe 200 300 thousand young Russian men

[00:52:09] But also let's think about Finland and Sweden joining NATO

[00:52:14] Finland's in Sweden is getting very close to sort of finishing that

[00:52:19] if

[00:52:21] Someone had said to Vladimir Putin in 2021

[00:52:25] Well, Finland is going to be in NATO fairly soon

[00:52:27] I mean he would have that would have been enough to make him threaten nuclear war

[00:52:32] and so

[00:52:33] There were so many reasons for Putin not to do it, but I think it was that it was still

[00:52:40] Quite shocking when it happened. Yeah. Yeah, I remember the build-up to it. It was that whole will he won't he thing

[00:52:48] Yeah, and it was just I don't know I I cynically sort of feel like he's gonna do it isn't he and he sadly did

[00:52:53] Yeah, I think I think one is

[00:52:58] Is the is the way he did it because he didn't

[00:53:02] Did this big build up of troops?

[00:53:03] But it wasn't the build-up that you'd really need to invade a vast country like Ukraine and that was subsequently proved

[00:53:10] Now, of course the theory may be that he didn't think that it would he'd need to fight his way to keep that

[00:53:17] This this thing I was talking about earlier the FSB sort of

[00:53:20] Plot

[00:53:22] The government would sort of collapse in on itself

[00:53:24] So so there are lots of elements of this where we're trying to understand his calculation

[00:53:29] Which I think that probably we're still slightly in the in the realm of speculation

[00:53:34] Yeah, yeah

[00:53:35] And the thinking the Wagner mutiny last year of his mutiny

[00:53:39] Showed it was a lot easier to get to Moscow than it was to keep well, right?

[00:53:43] I mean and that remains an extraordinary story doesn't that they

[00:53:47] On one level it seems barely credible that this really rather tiny force can seriously be headed to Moscow

[00:53:55] but

[00:53:56] until

[00:53:57] You know, it was

[00:54:00] It was progression who called the whole thing. He wasn't he wasn't you know, fall to a standstill

[00:54:07] Very fascinating

[00:54:09] Yeah

[00:54:10] My theory's been I don't think prego's never intended to win

[00:54:13] I think he thought he would get as far as he did and that's why he had to bring it to a stop but it

[00:54:19] Didn't know for him in the end did it?

[00:54:22] He must have quite quickly. I mean, I think he was obviously a hothead, but he must have quite quickly thought hang on

[00:54:27] I haven't haven't got much of a de-escalation

[00:54:35] No, no, I do wonder if that was his final thought in the plains it was tumbling was I should have gone through

[00:54:41] Probably would have been mine but

[00:54:45] Is there anything Britain could be doing better to counter the threat from Russia do you think well I think

[00:54:50] I want to be very fair, you know, I think we've done the right things in Ukraine. I think we have

[00:54:56] You know, we stood up early and and you know and credit to to the people involved including Boris Johnson

[00:55:03] Whatever else people might think of him. I think on Ukraine. He did the right things

[00:55:08] I

[00:55:09] Think we still have a way to go in making our kind of political and financial structures

[00:55:18] Much more resilient. It seems to be it's pretty easy for

[00:55:22] For money to slip into the political system that money could be coming from anywhere. It seems to me it's quite easy

[00:55:29] To use whether it's a sort of London property market or the city of London things like that

[00:55:34] To to launder stolen money, of course, that's not just about Russia that could be kleptocrap money from anywhere in the world and

[00:55:43] And I think that

[00:55:45] It doesn't feel like the structures of the British state really worked very well to

[00:55:51] To deal with those challenges. Yeah. Yeah, so something worth looking at I mean, I've got to ask you

[00:55:56] What do you all your thoughts on what's motivating Putin in a way and acting in the way he is?

[00:56:01] I

[00:56:03] Mean I

[00:56:05] I mean first thing I was I wouldn't pass myself as a sort of expert on him and his activities, but it feels as if he has this

[00:56:13] Incredible level of resentment. Yeah, and and it's all because it's not I don't think he's nostalgic for the Soviet Union per se

[00:56:22] And you know that he's if you look at the way he's he's not particularly

[00:56:27] High opinion of Lenin for example

[00:56:29] But he he he looks to Stalin and Catherine the great and Peter the great and again

[00:56:36] Stalin because of it that the sort of power that he he exercise on the world stage

[00:56:41] So I think he has this this obsession with Russia being seen as a great country and not being humiliated

[00:56:48] not being so chaotic and and and and

[00:56:51] Slightly kind of you know in the 1990s was a period when you associated Russia with sort of chaotic

[00:56:58] Slur otic, you know bad technology bad food

[00:57:03] You know and I suppose that is a humiliation

[00:57:06] But but the problem is that he's what he's doing is it's you know

[00:57:11] It's the last great European Empire and he won't let it go and

[00:57:16] You know

[00:57:18] Europe is full of countries including Britain and France and Spain all of which had huge empires at one point

[00:57:23] And I'm not saying that any of these countries have perfect in terms of getting over that we will have our imperial hangups

[00:57:29] But Russia is still actually trying to control an empire and that that feels very different. Yeah. Yeah, indeed

[00:57:35] Well, thank you for that. I suppose they're gonna go into

[00:57:38] Spirings and recruiting students

[00:57:40] So, um, you've talked already about your influence on the from the Cambridge five

[00:57:45] But there's been some interesting sort of stories of recently and historically about

[00:57:50] Intelligence services and even terrorist groups of targeting students for recruitment like the Cambridge five

[00:57:56] And I was wondering how real that sort of threat is to students today of potentially being recruited by a hostile power or terrorist organization

[00:58:04] Yeah, I think I think there have been some case studies involving China

[00:58:08] As well and obviously yes, certainly people sort of radicalization

[00:58:12] I think the thing you we all know is that young people and of course is one of the great things about being

[00:58:18] University you're there to explore new ideas. You're at an impressionable point in your life

[00:58:23] You you are you're probably you're willing to entertain a measure of freedom

[00:58:28] I don't know if you mean physical risk, but just you know, try try things that feel a little bit adventurous and different

[00:58:34] Um, and and so obviously you can see how that can be exploited

[00:58:40] By sort of the various actors

[00:58:43] And I think for a period of time probably our focus was more on the risk from a kind of

[00:58:50] Radicalization sort of militant organizations, whether it was, you know, Islamist or some other some other type of

[00:58:57] Potentially dangerous ideology, but clearly that that's something that that intelligence agents can also use

[00:59:03] And as part of that there's the uncertainty, you know young people have a lot of uncertainty

[00:59:08] Whether it's economic uncertainty whether it's it's social security or whatever

[00:59:12] And so I think that's the thing that we've been able to do in the last few years

[00:59:18] And that's the thing that we've been able to do in the last few years about economic uncertainty whether it's it's social uncertainty about what they're going to be in their later life.

[00:59:27] And and you if if you can exploit someone by offering them a sense of potentiality and certainty. You can see how that would be quite fruitful.

[00:59:38] Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think special for young as well because there is a lot of uncertainty about a lot of things

[00:59:43] employment prospects, they're two very big things there that certainly, yeah, one would

[00:59:48] crave some sort of certainty in that.

[00:59:50] Well, thank you for talking about the real world influences.

[00:59:53] I'd love to just chat a little bit about your literary influences if you've got time

[00:59:57] there.

[00:59:58] Are there any obvious sort of literary influences on you that influenced you as a writer?

[01:00:02] Definitely.

[01:00:03] Yeah, I mean, I think within the spy genre, I think anybody writing these books is probably

[01:00:11] in some way under the shadow of John Le Carre.

[01:00:13] I'm a huge admirer of his work.

[01:00:16] I don't for a moment think anything I write is getting close to it, but the way that

[01:00:21] he wrote about a sort of slightly dark, slightly cynical world, a world which is not full

[01:00:28] of heroes and sort of macho, you know, the James Bond type, but these sort of intellectual

[01:00:35] flawed characters, people whose lives feel quite unsatisfactory and grappling with the

[01:00:42] real world with all its flaws.

[01:00:45] So I think that had a big influence on me.

[01:00:49] I've enjoyed other sort of classic spy writers.

[01:00:54] So just reading off some, you know, John Buchan back in the day, you know,

[01:00:59] Eric Ambler, Len Dayton, those are all writers who've meant a lot to me.

[01:01:05] So I definitely as a writer, I think I've been very influenced just by great literature

[01:01:10] that I've encountered throughout my life.

[01:01:12] You know, I love Dickens.

[01:01:14] I like sort of writers who play with the reader in that kind of unreliable narrator

[01:01:21] sort of thing.

[01:01:22] And I think that that again, you know, spy literature is about layers being peeled

[01:01:28] away and the reader at the start of the book shouldn't know all the information.

[01:01:33] And so any book that does that, that is sort of playful with the reader,

[01:01:38] certainly is something that appeals to me.

[01:01:41] Yeah. Putting on a spot, do you have a favourite spy novel?

[01:01:46] Hmm.

[01:01:47] That's a very good question.

[01:01:50] If I did, it might be, it might actually be, but if not, The Honourable School

[01:01:57] by John Le Carre, which is obviously the middle of his great trilogy,

[01:02:02] the Carla trilogy.

[01:02:04] And I think a lot of people find it less satisfactory, it's very long

[01:02:09] and it doesn't really involve Russians.

[01:02:11] Not that that's essential at all.

[01:02:13] But I love the sort of complexity of it and the twists and the turns

[01:02:19] and the depiction because it's a sort of Vietnam War novel in a way.

[01:02:22] The depiction of the kind of steamy horror of South East Asia at that time,

[01:02:29] but also the depiction of Hong Kong under a very sort of British colonial

[01:02:34] period of the 70s and so on.

[01:02:37] So that's a great, probably if it's not that one,

[01:02:42] it's another one which I'm very fond of again,

[01:02:45] another Le Carre is The Looking Glass War,

[01:02:48] which isn't always seen as his best work.

[01:02:51] Apparently people didn't like it when it came out,

[01:02:54] but it's sort of a bit like The Spy Who Came In From the Cold

[01:02:57] but with an even sort of darker side to it.

[01:03:00] And I think it's just brilliantly sort of cynical

[01:03:03] and in its own way, it's sort of a horrible realism to it.

[01:03:09] Good choices there.

[01:03:11] Are there any films or TV shows that have caught your eye

[01:03:14] and have any films or TV shows got caught life at MI6 accurately yet?

[01:03:21] I mean, might even be a spy show.

[01:03:23] Is there another show that makes it feel like MI6?

[01:03:26] Well, certainly films that I've seen which have caught my eye,

[01:03:30] which definitely aren't about MI6 because they're American,

[01:03:33] Spy Game, Robert Redford Bradford,

[01:03:36] and it's a great film and it's a great film on every level.

[01:03:40] But the depiction of a, we were talking about it earlier,

[01:03:43] the relationship between an agent and a case officer,

[01:03:46] a source and a handler, however you want to describe it,

[01:03:49] brilliantly done, I think it's really good.

[01:03:51] TV shows obviously, the current Slow Horses is wonderful.

[01:03:55] It's incredibly funny and sort of clever and cynical.

[01:03:59] In terms of depiction of sort of British intelligence

[01:04:04] and particularly the sort of MI6,

[01:04:07] funnily enough, I'm not aware of,

[01:04:10] maybe that's a sort of gap in the market,

[01:04:12] I'm not aware of any particularly good ones.

[01:04:16] I mean, I think you've tended to have

[01:04:21] either shows like Spooks which are great,

[01:04:24] but they're quite sort of action oriented

[01:04:27] or all the sort of high glamour stuff,

[01:04:31] which is, I mean, at one extreme you have James Bond,

[01:04:34] which is fun to watch, but pure fiction,

[01:04:38] 100% fiction.

[01:04:39] So unless I'm sort of missing a really obvious one,

[01:04:42] I can't think of any.

[01:04:43] I mean, the classic BBC John Le Carre

[01:04:48] does Tinger Tailor Soldier Spy.

[01:04:51] I think that's a brilliant depiction.

[01:04:54] It's certainly a fictional world,

[01:04:57] but a sort of an authentic fiction,

[01:05:00] but it's very of its time.

[01:05:01] It's very much as of 1970s, early 80s.

[01:05:04] I can't think of anything that's particularly

[01:05:08] sort of up to date actually.

[01:05:10] There's one show I've always liked

[01:05:12] but I have no idea how accurate it is.

[01:05:13] Some people say it is.

[01:05:14] It's a TV show called The Sandbaggers

[01:05:16] that was made by Yorkshire television in the late 70s.

[01:05:19] I don't know if you've seen that one.

[01:05:20] No, I'm not.

[01:05:21] I think I have heard of it.

[01:05:22] I should take a look at it.

[01:05:24] There's a writer called Alan Judd

[01:05:29] who's written some very good spy fiction

[01:05:33] who has an intelligence background.

[01:05:37] And I think one of his has been made into a film

[01:05:42] or a TV show and that's pretty good.

[01:05:44] Another one that's great,

[01:05:45] not depicting British,

[01:05:47] but feels pretty bang on is Tehran

[01:05:52] which depicts Israeli spies

[01:05:54] operating undercover in Iran.

[01:05:55] I think it's brilliantly done.

[01:05:57] And of course,

[01:05:58] whether it's true to life or not,

[01:06:00] I don't know,

[01:06:01] but what we do know

[01:06:02] because there's been lots of interesting reports

[01:06:04] is that the Israelis have done

[01:06:05] a series of very remarkable operations

[01:06:07] in Iran targeting the nuclear scientists,

[01:06:10] including a series of assassinations,

[01:06:12] which of course, morally very complex,

[01:06:14] but very, very interesting and fascinating.

[01:06:18] Excellent.

[01:06:19] Well, thank you for that.

[01:06:20] I'd love to talk to you a bit about

[01:06:21] how you went about writing your book

[01:06:23] and did you write it part time around other work

[01:06:26] or do you have a routine or ritual that you follow?

[01:06:30] Yeah.

[01:06:31] Although it's just come out,

[01:06:33] I wrote it mostly a couple of years back

[01:06:36] at the start of that lockdown period

[01:06:38] of enforced idleness.

[01:06:40] And I had a sort of idea to write a novel.

[01:06:44] I think like most people

[01:06:46] I've always sort of toyed with the idea,

[01:06:48] but that point of enforced idleness

[01:06:51] sort of pushed me to get going.

[01:06:55] And the other thing

[01:06:56] that slightly inspired me

[01:06:57] was actually the death of John McCarran

[01:06:59] because I felt

[01:07:01] he'd had such a sort of influence on me

[01:07:05] just as a reader.

[01:07:06] And I thought if I'm ever going to do something,

[01:07:08] it just sort of spurred me into action a bit.

[01:07:11] And not, I wouldn't want to listen

[01:07:14] and think I'm sort of comparing myself to him,

[01:07:16] but just that I,

[01:07:18] it's a classic case of sort of

[01:07:20] you could spend your life talking about

[01:07:22] a thing you're planning to do

[01:07:23] and not doing it.

[01:07:24] So I just had to get moving

[01:07:25] and it was that moment

[01:07:26] that just sort of flipped a switch

[01:07:28] somewhere inside me.

[01:07:29] Yeah, usually it's something that will do it.

[01:07:31] Is there any advice you would give to authors

[01:07:33] who have yet to get their work

[01:07:35] published or even the confidence to get started?

[01:07:37] Yeah, well certainly on the confidence

[01:07:39] to get started,

[01:07:40] I think there is this

[01:07:42] there's a metaphor of

[01:07:46] building a high building

[01:07:48] that obviously one layer of bricks

[01:07:51] may only be 10 centimetres high

[01:07:54] but obviously that's how buildings are built

[01:07:56] and many are still built

[01:07:58] by hand laid bricks.

[01:08:00] And so you do just have to believe in yourself

[01:08:05] and it's that thing that

[01:08:06] for example, if you could write a thousand words

[01:08:10] in a day or maybe in an evening after work

[01:08:13] if you're really going well

[01:08:16] then actually when you start

[01:08:18] a novel probably is

[01:08:20] at a minimum probably 75,000

[01:08:22] usually a bit more

[01:08:24] but actually if you think about it that way

[01:08:26] that's not that hard.

[01:08:28] I'm not going to

[01:08:29] because clearly you have to have the idea

[01:08:31] you've got to have the plot in your mind in some way

[01:08:33] some people are different

[01:08:34] they have it all laid out

[01:08:35] others as they go along.

[01:08:37] But I think that's one thing

[01:08:41] the hardest bit I think is the first

[01:08:43] few words because it's really

[01:08:46] it's really difficult to believe

[01:08:48] that you can do this

[01:08:50] but it's really worth it.

[01:08:51] In terms of getting published

[01:08:52] I mean that is very difficult these days

[01:08:55] but I certainly think

[01:08:57] you have to have an agent

[01:08:59] I think

[01:09:01] and in my advice to someone would be actually

[01:09:04] probably

[01:09:06] write a small bit of a book

[01:09:08] and be really really happy with it

[01:09:10] and then try and find an agent

[01:09:12] because

[01:09:13] I mean it depends on

[01:09:14] some people may feel

[01:09:15] I just want to write my book

[01:09:16] and I'll be proud of it

[01:09:17] whatever I do

[01:09:18] and that's great

[01:09:19] and I totally respect that

[01:09:20] but if you're struggling a bit

[01:09:22] with the

[01:09:23] the sort of self belief

[01:09:24] and the motivation

[01:09:26] if you've got

[01:09:27] some good chapters

[01:09:28] most agents will

[01:09:30] be willing to read

[01:09:31] let's say three four five chapters

[01:09:33] I mean a lot of them will tell you on their websites

[01:09:35] what they do and don't accept

[01:09:37] but if they like it

[01:09:39] they'll tell you that

[01:09:40] and that's actually a huge validation

[01:09:42] because there's someone whose job it is

[01:09:44] to read fiction that could be published

[01:09:46] and telling you that yours is worth doing

[01:09:48] and carrying on with it

[01:09:49] so I think that's a really

[01:09:51] that certainly worked for me really well.

[01:09:53] Yeah that's good advice

[01:09:54] and I'm assuming

[01:09:55] they do take interest

[01:09:56] they don't turn around and suddenly say

[01:09:57] where's the rest of the book

[01:09:58] because they're getting tired

[01:09:59] I mean obviously you need to be straight

[01:10:01] up with someone

[01:10:02] but I think the point is

[01:10:03] if someone

[01:10:04] sees a fragment

[01:10:06] but a decent fragment

[01:10:08] say 10,000 words or something

[01:10:10] and you can lay out the synopsis

[01:10:13] of the plot as well

[01:10:15] and they feel

[01:10:16] and the agent thinks

[01:10:17] well this reads well

[01:10:18] I enjoyed this

[01:10:19] I want to know more

[01:10:20] that's ultimately what it is

[01:10:22] that's what

[01:10:23] a writer has to

[01:10:25] offer to the reader

[01:10:27] and of course the other thing

[01:10:28] is to think about

[01:10:29] publishers are businesses

[01:10:32] they have to sell something

[01:10:34] so what is it you're selling?

[01:10:36] It may be that

[01:10:37] you need to think a bit about

[01:10:39] what the world is into at the moment

[01:10:41] you know is it AI?

[01:10:43] Can you create a espionage novel around AI?

[01:10:45] If you write an espionage novel

[01:10:48] about a

[01:10:50] I don't know

[01:10:51] a British spy who's a bit like

[01:10:53] Kim Philby in the Cold War

[01:10:55] you know the publisher might say

[01:10:56] well okay

[01:10:57] but there are a lot of these books already

[01:10:59] and it's quite hard because no one knows you

[01:11:01] to publish your book

[01:11:03] and that can be quite cutting

[01:11:05] because your book might be brilliant

[01:11:07] so sometimes I think

[01:11:08] you've got to think quite commercially

[01:11:10] if you're very keen to be published

[01:11:12] think about what it is the world

[01:11:14] is interested in at the moment

[01:11:16] Yeah, brilliant, brilliant

[01:11:17] another question away from writing

[01:11:20] but if a listener is interested in

[01:11:22] a career in British intelligence

[01:11:23] what would you recommend them to do?

[01:11:25] Well actually these days

[01:11:26] it's quite straightforward

[01:11:28] you go on the website

[01:11:29] and you can read about the recruitment process

[01:11:31] you can start your application online

[01:11:34] and you can, you know

[01:11:36] if you're somebody that has the right

[01:11:39] skills and qualifications

[01:11:40] you have a good chance of getting in

[01:11:42] the one thing I would say

[01:11:43] there's not much I can say about that time

[01:11:45] but you do not need to have

[01:11:47] gone to a private school

[01:11:49] or have an uncle who's there

[01:11:50] or a godparent or anything of that kind of stuff

[01:11:52] you know

[01:11:53] they are organisations that

[01:11:55] they need diversity

[01:11:57] and not because it's a desirable political objective

[01:12:01] but by definition to be able to operate

[01:12:03] you've got to be like the population

[01:12:05] because you have to be among the population

[01:12:07] so I think these are organisations that have

[01:12:09] a pretty straightforward

[01:12:11] and fair recruitment process

[01:12:13] obviously it's demanding

[01:12:15] and not everyone will get in

[01:12:16] but basically if it's something you're interested in

[01:12:19] take a look and you know

[01:12:21] educate yourself about the requirements

[01:12:23] Yeah, yeah and is there any advantage to

[01:12:25] like studying a foreign language

[01:12:27] or doing international studies

[01:12:29] or anything like that

[01:12:30] are there any students out there?

[01:12:31] I think certainly having language skills

[01:12:33] is advantageous

[01:12:34] particularly again you know

[01:12:35] if you're a fluent Russian speaker

[01:12:37] I don't think it would be surprising

[01:12:39] if someone you know that

[01:12:40] or Ukrainian or whatever

[01:12:41] you know there are clearly

[01:12:43] certain languages that will be advantageous

[01:12:46] I think yes having done

[01:12:49] interesting things overseas

[01:12:50] I don't mean it

[01:12:51] you know some kind of spy type stuff

[01:12:54] but just having a broad range

[01:12:56] of international experiences could be helpful

[01:12:59] but it's helpful more like

[01:13:01] it would be in any job

[01:13:03] but if you can demonstrate to a recruiter

[01:13:06] that you've done something in a demanding setting

[01:13:09] you know perhaps where you have to think on your feet

[01:13:11] you can imagine that's a classic job interview question

[01:13:14] isn't it?

[01:13:15] and I think it's as much about that

[01:13:16] it's not that oh you know

[01:13:18] I'm connected to the Minister of Defence

[01:13:20] in Saudi Arabia

[01:13:21] it's more about

[01:13:23] can you show someone

[01:13:24] that you are somebody who is resourceful

[01:13:27] and you know you've got a certain resilience

[01:13:30] and certain other attributes

[01:13:32] that you could imagine would be useful

[01:13:33] in that environment

[01:13:35] yeah good stuff

[01:13:36] well thank you so much for your time

[01:13:38] where can listeners find out more about you

[01:13:40] and your excellent book?

[01:13:41] well the book is widely available

[01:13:45] it's published by Cannello

[01:13:47] and obviously you'll find it on their website

[01:13:49] you'll find it in Waterstones

[01:13:51] on Amazon

[01:13:52] all the other good book shops

[01:13:54] independent book shops

[01:13:55] also I'm on Twitter

[01:13:57] at CB20226

[01:14:00] but just put Charles Beaumont writer on Twitter

[01:14:03] you'll find me there

[01:14:04] and I am currently trying to write a sequel

[01:14:08] to Aspire Alone

[01:14:09] so if people enjoy Aspire Alone

[01:14:12] hopefully they'll get another one

[01:14:14] to take a look at fairly soon

[01:14:15] brilliant

[01:14:16] well thank you so much for joining me today Charles

[01:14:18] it's been a real pleasure

[01:14:20] thanks for listening

[01:14:52] this is Secrets and Spies