S8 Ep36: Espresso Martini: Putin exploits ISIS-K attack, House Republicans hold up US aid to Ukraine, and new Havana Syndrome information.

[00:00:00] presents Espresso Martini with Chris Carr and Matt Fulton.

[00:00:26] I'll get us running. Hello everybody and welcome to Espresso Martini. Matt, how are you doing?

[00:00:39] I'm doing good Chris. We're very quickly getting into spring here in the Northeast. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:00:47] How are you? Good. I'm good. We're finally getting a bit of spring here too. As I speak now I can

[00:00:53] see blossom on a tree, which is nice. Yeah, we've had those. Yes. It's usually the time of year when

[00:00:58] London actually smells nice for about two weeks. And then I think there's another period later in

[00:01:08] May where we have a similar thing where another batch of blossom comes out. I could be wrong there,

[00:01:14] but I feel like it happens twice a year. I could be wrong there, but I feel like it does. Maybe

[00:01:17] it's just, I don't know, maybe it's just happened such different times a year that my memory is

[00:01:21] like, who knows? Somebody can tell me. Is that a botanist being a plant expert? Is that botany?

[00:01:28] Yeah, it is. Yes, it's botanist. Yeah. So any botanists out there please feel

[00:01:31] free to email us and tell us about the blossom. A lot of botanist spies. Spies.

[00:01:36] Yeah, it's true. It's true. Yeah. I remember once when we talked about one on a past episode about

[00:01:44] what was it about now? It was about industrial espadage a couple of years ago.

[00:01:47] Some sort of English botanist who went to China and was stealing secrets from China for the British.

[00:01:53] It's a good cover. It is. You think about it. I mean, it gives you a reason to travel and be in

[00:01:57] these exotic places. Yeah. And saying you're like a botanist is almost like saying you're

[00:02:03] like an accountant. No one really follows up with that. It's like, oh, okay. You're a plant

[00:02:08] guy or gal. There's a film based on the Frederick Forsythe novel, The Dogs of War,

[00:02:15] where Christopher Walken's character goes on the cover as a botanist and then he gets

[00:02:18] quizzed on like the Latin names for certain birds. So there is your cover, you better know

[00:02:24] your stuff. That's a good point. Yeah, you got to have some sort of subject knowledge.

[00:02:29] Subject matter knowledge there. Yeah. I don't think I'd be very good as a botanist.

[00:02:34] There could be a photographer. I could totally talk about F-stops versus T-stops and

[00:02:38] ND filters and graduated filters and what have you, but yeah. Well, filters and plants aside.

[00:02:46] On today's episode, we're going to look at President Vladimir Putin exploiting the ISIS

[00:02:51] K attack for his war on Ukraine. Then we're going to look at House Republicans holding up USAID to

[00:02:57] Ukraine. And then we're going to look at new revelations in regards to Havana syndrome that

[00:03:01] have come from a new episode of 60 minutes. So we cover quite a lot of very interesting

[00:03:06] information on espresso martini today. And then we're going to move on to our Patreon only show

[00:03:11] extra shots on that. We're going to look at Chinese disinformation efforts targeting US

[00:03:15] elections, a Chinese drone flying over the Sea of Japan and the results of a recent survey in

[00:03:21] the U S that suggests some gun owners may be willing to engage in political violence.

[00:03:28] And then we wrap up looking at Hollywood's depiction of espionage in film and television.

[00:03:33] You'll need to be a Patreon subscriber to get access to extra shot. Just go to patreon.com

[00:03:39] forward slash secrets and spies and pick a subscription level that works best for you.

[00:03:43] And depending on which level you select, you'll get a free cup or coaster. Well,

[00:03:47] let's go to Moscow and look at the ISIS K attack. So not the cheeriest of starts,

[00:03:54] but I'm hoping towards the end it will get cheerier on this podcast release will

[00:03:58] extra shot, I think. So on the 22nd of March, ISIS K gunman stormed a concert

[00:04:06] at the Crocus City Hall in Moscow. They were armed with Kalashnikov style assault rifles,

[00:04:11] 145 concert goers were shot and killed and injured a further 551. So we're talking about

[00:04:18] a lot of people there. Videos of the attack show the gunman use indiscriminate violence

[00:04:23] targeting anyone that moved and I'll share I'll say this now. I saw some of the video and it was

[00:04:29] really quite disturbing and shocking. I've usually try and avoid watching videos of mass

[00:04:34] killings, but it was on Twitter and for whatever reason, I was drawn into it and it was appalling.

[00:04:40] And in fact, one of the weird observations I have as a noticed one of the gunman was firing

[00:04:45] so much that the I guess it was the residue of gunpowder in his gun caught fire in the

[00:04:52] barrel of the gun. So he was in the lobby going into the concert hall, he had shot so much

[00:04:58] that I guess he hadn't cleaned the gun properly or they're using bad ammunition, but the barrel

[00:05:03] caught on fire was like whoa and some people like is that flame thrower but no it turned out to be

[00:05:08] the residue gunpowder catching on fire and that does happen apparently,

[00:05:12] especially if you don't clean your guns. So ISIS K claim responsibility for that attack

[00:05:17] and to the surprise of few in the West people wondered why would ISIS K attack Russia?

[00:05:23] Well, ISIS K see Russia as being complicit in activities that regularly oppose Muslims in

[00:05:31] in the Middle East. And according to Colin Clark from the Sufons Center,

[00:05:36] ISIS K has been fixated on Russia for at least two years frequently criticizing Putin

[00:05:42] in its propaganda. ISIS K, otherwise known as the Islamic state of Korosan, is named after an

[00:05:48] old term for the region that includes Iran, Turkmenistan and Afghanistan. It emerged in

[00:05:55] eastern Afghanistan late 2014 and quickly established a reputation for extreme brutality.

[00:06:01] So very much on the ISIS brand there. ISIS K is threatened to commit similar attacks in France

[00:06:06] and the UK. And in fact, there was some ISIS propaganda where they depicted the Emirates

[00:06:12] Stadium, which is the stadium for Arsenal in London. The US government had warned Russia that

[00:06:17] a potential attack targeting large gatherings in Moscow is imminent. And this was a warning that

[00:06:23] Putin dismissed just three days before the ISIS attack on the 22nd of March. Putin said that

[00:06:29] the warnings resembled outright blackmail and an intention to intimidate and destabilize

[00:06:35] Russian society. The Russian authorities managed to catch the gunman quite quickly after the attack,

[00:06:41] and then they subjected them to numerous forms of torture ranging from electrifying the testicles

[00:06:47] of one suspect and cutting off the ear of another and feeding it to him. And those videos were both

[00:06:54] posted online via Telegram and Twitter. And I can tell you now they made disturbing viewing

[00:06:59] because for some stupid reason I decided to watch a man have his ear cut off and made

[00:07:03] to eat it, which was not pleasant. You've had a fun couple days researching this show.

[00:07:09] I don't know why I did that, but there we go. I avoided watching the man with his testicles

[00:07:15] being electrified. That's a good idea. I saw a photograph of mid electrocution and did not

[00:07:22] look pleasant. So it is believed that the Russians are using tried and tested torture

[00:07:29] techniques to force the gunman to claim links to Ukraine despite ISIS K taking responsibility for

[00:07:35] the attack. And they have taken responsibility quite a few times now because they're quite frustrated

[00:07:40] with the Russian government as well. And not wishing to waste a terrible trusty, Putin immediately

[00:07:45] after attack said that Ukrainians were responsible in working for the West and his

[00:07:50] propagandists echoed this. One such propagandist Sergei Karnakov, who was the host of Solovyov

[00:07:58] Live and he said that we know that Ukraine is the link between the British and American

[00:08:03] intelligence services that Ukraine is a proxy force of American British military.

[00:08:08] And does anyone have any doubt who did this? I'm sure Ukraine did this, he said on television.

[00:08:15] And apparently the US and British motive was to de-legitimize Putin by depicting him as unable

[00:08:21] to protect his people despite a prior warning. Apparently then on that same show they showed

[00:08:27] a deep fake clip of Ukraine's top security official Alexei Denilov, which was designed to

[00:08:34] show that Ukraine and not ISIS had actually accepted responsibility for the attack. But

[00:08:39] obviously it was a deep fake video. And shortly after showing that clip, Karnakov admitted that

[00:08:44] it might have been an old clip but insisted it doesn't change anything. The head of the FSB,

[00:08:49] Alexander Bortnikov said that investigations believe radical Islamist carried out the attack,

[00:08:56] but that Western special services assisted and Ukrainian special services played a direct

[00:09:01] role. Bortnikov cited no evidence to support that assertion. So as I said Putin doesn't want

[00:09:08] to waste an atrocity, he would like to use it to justify further action in Ukraine.

[00:09:14] So Matt what are your thoughts on this terrible attack and obviously on the way Putin's sort of

[00:09:20] positioning it? Yeah something about how Russian state media appropriated this attack to fit its

[00:09:26] narrative against Ukraine, like the speed of it, how confident they were about it.

[00:09:33] It just felt so egregiously dark and nihilistic. The sort of conspiracy that ISIS is actually

[00:09:43] like a creation of Western intelligence or Israel or something, I mean that's old,

[00:09:50] that's been around for a while. Very popular certain parts of Middle East that theory.

[00:09:56] Yeah definitely. So I mean that groundwork is kind of there but I mean yeah even for the Russians,

[00:10:04] even for this moment that we've been in it was just so fast and it was so total.

[00:10:11] Yeah they didn't really even skip beat doing it. I can't decide if they've either,

[00:10:18] I don't know if you have feelings here, I can't decide if they've either like fully bought

[00:10:23] their own propaganda or if they're just completely soulless and you know here's something that we

[00:10:30] can use to our benefit and let's just run with it like before the attacks even over.

[00:10:35] Yeah I think the professionals have just sold their soul, they don't care. I think it's more

[00:10:42] people watching it are probably the ones who are in that situation when they're trying to

[00:10:47] work out whether it's true or not but I suspect quite a few people deep down know it

[00:10:51] isn't true but then saying that there was a survey just recently where I think a lot of Russians

[00:10:55] believe Ukraine was responsible so it's very difficult to really say what people in Russia

[00:11:01] actually think. Well if you have like such, okay let's compare this to like the US or the UK

[00:11:09] in this situation right where if you had the reality where the entire news media industry

[00:11:19] was like Fox or Newsmax or like GB News in the UK or something and it was like literally illegal

[00:11:30] to say anything other than what was being said on those networks right and that's the only

[00:11:36] information source that we had in the US or in the UK. I think people would very easily be in

[00:11:44] the same position. I think honestly what ordinary Russians profess to believe about any

[00:11:51] kind of particular issue one, I mean public polling there is so hard but it's also it's

[00:11:59] illegal for them to say anything else like the responses that they're given under duress

[00:12:07] to an extent but also I mean does it really matter what they believe? I mean it's not like

[00:12:15] they don't have, they've lost the ability to receive any other information to the contrary

[00:12:23] you know so like of course they do. It's almost like doing public polling of like

[00:12:28] North Koreans you know like what do you expect to hear? Yeah it's funny was I think well

[00:12:35] I think there's some cynicism in that polling sometimes isn't there and then I think also there's

[00:12:40] this sort of false sense of hope because I know like with particular Russia I think there's a lot

[00:12:44] of people in the West who want to believe that Russia don't really back what Putin's doing and

[00:12:48] I can't answer either way they do or they don't and that's the real issue isn't it but I think

[00:12:54] a lot of people just hold out this hope that oh yeah of course the Russians don't believe in

[00:12:58] Putin's war but it's difficult to say really. I think they've had you know Putin's been

[00:13:02] working on his population for 20 years now with all his propaganda it's gonna stick

[00:13:07] after that period of time. I mean I think in you know sort of communist thinking I think

[00:13:13] they record it takes a hundred years to change the opinions of a population of a country.

[00:13:18] Yeah so yeah yeah so there's definitely some sort of logic behind what they're doing.

[00:13:25] Yeah I mean I think so one example that I've referenced a couple times this was

[00:13:30] a couple months after the invasion started it wasn't too long into it at all. I want to say

[00:13:34] it was that following spring or early summer there was a video that emerged of a Russian

[00:13:41] woman in London like on the street totally harassing a Ukrainian woman like parroting

[00:13:46] all the conspiracy theories by Ukrainians like the whole that whole kind of adjud prop right

[00:13:51] and I think that Russian woman in London exists in the same information environment as you or I

[00:13:58] you know like she's not a slave to Russian state tv I mean she can be but she has a choice not to be

[00:14:06] you know she could watch rt and then in the next second switch over to the bbc you know.

[00:14:12] Well the interesting thing there is her experience is state propaganda so she's going to assume

[00:14:17] that any media over here is the same because I've had conversations of people who

[00:14:21] grew up in communist Poland and they can't shake the idea that any media is not state run and controlled

[00:14:28] and trying to manipulate them and so it leads them down the path this particular individual

[00:14:33] speaking to find out was a flat earth from Poland grew up in communist Poland and just

[00:14:38] you know basically believed the opposite of everything now because that was her reaction to

[00:14:43] what she grew up with yeah. Yeah as far as like the condition that that the terrorists were in

[00:14:49] when they were brought into court I didn't I didn't I saw those pictures of them in court I didn't see

[00:14:56] I saw videos of the attack itself I didn't see any videos of them being tortured I could have

[00:15:02] I just I just like it was right there I just I just chose not to. He didn't miss anything.

[00:15:07] I can I can imagine what was going down. Yeah and blatantly yeah. Yeah it's it's shocking

[00:15:14] to see but it was less it was shocking just from like a sheer like brutality standpoint but as like

[00:15:20] a tactic it was it was honestly less shocking to me. It still gave me pause though. Very heavy

[00:15:26] handed yeah I mean the brutality one satiates russians need to see these people suffer

[00:15:34] which I'd hope we'd be better than that but okay I mean if you if you got your hands on

[00:15:43] like the 9-11 hijackers on September 12th and did that to them and put it on tv

[00:15:52] the vast majority of people would not have any problem with it at all you know.

[00:15:57] I think that just I think that fact there speaks more to just human nature rather than anything

[00:16:03] specific about the russians I mean the difference is that their government would would do that I

[00:16:07] don't think ours would. No no at least when you know like with the black site stuff that happened

[00:16:14] with the US government. You're like I'm a great outlaw yeah there was such an outage about it

[00:16:21] that they're not allowed to do that so when you know that's the big difference I think but yeah.

[00:16:26] The difference with that though is that was quite a bit removed from that was a couple years

[00:16:30] removed from 9-11 and like I'm talking about like the hijackers like if you if you if you

[00:16:34] yeah yeah if you pulled them out and yeah somehow managed to get a hold of the hijackers you know

[00:16:39] on September 12th I think you could do that and get away with it and maybe I think we would look back

[00:16:43] on it and be like yeah that's not our finest hour we shouldn't have done that that was wrong

[00:16:47] but in the moment I think I think most people would would be totally cheering for it just

[00:16:51] being honest. This deflects anger toward the Kremlin for failing to disrupt the attack when

[00:16:58] they were clearly warned. Yep. It also it gives a warning to anyone at home in Russia

[00:17:05] who opposes Putin or the regime you know like that messages even though you're not ISIS don't

[00:17:11] think the scale of violence can be visited upon you yeah you know I think that's honestly what

[00:17:16] they were what they were doing there. Yeah I agree one unfortunate observation I make and I always

[00:17:20] feel like a bit of a racist saying this but I just feel like Russia historically do seem to rely

[00:17:26] on brute force over tactics. They do and so when what happened happened again it didn't surprise me

[00:17:36] but you know I had real mixed feelings actually because I felt really disgusted by what I was seeing

[00:17:40] but at the same time after seeing the footage of the attack didn't feel totally sorry for the

[00:17:46] guys if you know I mean I felt really conflicted. I don't feel sorry for them I don't I don't feel

[00:17:50] sorry I'm like like don't I that's that's not yeah that's not where I'm coming at at all

[00:17:55] I just think it's no no no exactly but we should not be you know torturing people doing that to

[00:17:59] people because we've got to be better than that otherwise we're as bad as the terrorists so to

[00:18:03] speak so yeah right yeah yeah no it very very brutal stuff that happened and it was and it was

[00:18:09] just so obvious I mean they walk you know they were led in one of them was led in the court

[00:18:12] in a wheelchair I think and they were just so obviously roughed up not even like slightly

[00:18:18] roughed up with a black eye they looked like they were about to collapse and die you know it

[00:18:23] was the guy in the wheelchair is that the is that the one who was uh electrocuted I believe so

[00:18:29] I believe so I think I'd be in a wheelchair too yeah there was one guy who had a massive bandage

[00:18:33] around the head and he was the one who had his ear forced fed to him um yeah the one in the wheelchair

[00:18:37] I'm not 100% sure because I didn't kind of keep track of who was who with what was going on it

[00:18:42] was just so disgusting and horrible it was like I watched for like five seconds the thing of each

[00:18:47] clip and that was enough um but it was just like fucking hell I mean it reminded me actually of that

[00:18:54] it was it last year or the year before when Wagner mercenaries castrated a man in Ukraine

[00:18:59] it was on that level oh right that's apparently um a fairly common yeah thing that they do over

[00:19:05] there yeah yeah yeah it's uh you must get other people I guess I think it's yeah well it's also

[00:19:10] it's it's sort of you know this this that g word hasn't been thrown around in the conflict

[00:19:16] nearly as much as it has in in another contemporary conflict but I mean what the Russians are

[00:19:21] affecting in Ukraine is absolutely genocide yeah and frankly castrating captured male soldiers

[00:19:26] is part of that yeah indeed indeed and uh yeah no the g word doesn't get used much in Ukraine um

[00:19:34] yeah it's it's horrible and like kidnapping children and all that sort of stuff that

[00:19:38] what they've been doing it's been appalling yeah I've said that on on on here before I had a

[00:19:43] very bad feeling that something with those kids and families that they're you know

[00:19:47] shipping out east um I think there's something incredibly dark going on there that that we don't

[00:19:54] that we don't know the extent of it still yeah yeah they're doing something and I have suspicions

[00:19:59] of what it might be but I'm trying to get the word for it is that will totally sum it up

[00:20:03] in a single word and I can't think of it right now but um we'll just look to history

[00:20:07] mm indeed indeed you know I think it's something along along those lines yeah

[00:20:14] you know you know I was reflecting on our chat on the previous episode because that was we

[00:20:19] record that just the day before the attack didn't we and we yeah we were talking about

[00:20:25] Putin in an infamous 1999 apartment bombing in Russia that was blamed on the Chechens and used

[00:20:31] to justify a second surge in the Chechen war I think I mean I don't believe I'll say this now

[00:20:38] don't believe Russia made this attack happen I don't believe they staged this attack and far from

[00:20:44] it I think whether they let it happen on purpose I don't know I still don't think Russians would be

[00:20:49] that awful there may be people out there who believe there are but I think that gets into

[00:20:54] kind of like 9 11 trufer territory which is not my yeah um and I mean I drank that tea once

[00:21:00] and I will not drink it again um but I do wonder you know through what the way Putin's positioning it

[00:21:06] whether he's just trying to use this opportunity to justify some sort of surge that might happen soon

[00:21:12] in Ukraine because Ukraine is this really interesting and delicate point right now

[00:21:17] because they're running very low on ammunition and Russia are making they're now making some

[00:21:22] progress on the retake territory they took and lost before and I think Putin's now

[00:21:26] regalvanized after his fake election and so maybe he I think Putin's not stupid I think he knows he

[00:21:34] needs some sort of public support to back him of what he might do next but um yeah I would not be

[00:21:40] surprised and I really hope I'm wrong but I would not be surprised if we're about to see Russia

[00:21:47] unleash more hell on Ukraine I mean to be fair they already are maybe bombing the heck out of

[00:21:52] Ukraine recently um and I just think it's just gonna get worse and worse and as long as USA is held up

[00:21:59] it's not yeah it's gonna go on longer than it really should so uh yeah not good um on the ISIS K thing

[00:22:07] had a few conversations people were like why are ISIS attacking Russia and so many people don't

[00:22:12] realize how Russia is so integrated in Afghanistan Syria and Iran I would label Iran as a client

[00:22:18] state of Russia and Syria and Afghanistan I think maybe they've certainly got economic ties as a

[00:22:25] Taliban now whether you could say the Taliban or Afghanistan as a client state of Russia might

[00:22:30] be a bit big there I don't think they are at the moment but yeah maybe in time that's the

[00:22:34] extent of it yeah maybe in time they will be because you know as we've talked about with

[00:22:39] Afghanistan it is full of precious metals and minerals that would be useful and certainly

[00:22:44] China and Russia are all over Afghanistan post the American exit so you know that that is why

[00:22:53] because ISIS K are attacking the Taliban because ISIS K want to be the dominant power and Afghanistan

[00:22:58] and rule it in the way they see fit um because apparently the Taliban are not brutal enough

[00:23:04] and you know um so ISIS K want to take it one step further um so yeah so that that's that's why

[00:23:12] you know ISIS K were targeting Russia um so you may we may see more attacks by

[00:23:18] Islamist groups against Russia now I don't know or maybe Russia torturing the suspects

[00:23:24] suspects in the way they did was also to send out a message to would be

[00:23:28] terrorists of this is the fate that awaits you um you know I heard stories about when Russia was

[00:23:34] in Afghanistan in the um early early eight well sorry the late 70s early 80s the 79 to 89

[00:23:41] that apparently they would castrate terror suspects and feed them their testicles and all

[00:23:46] sorts of terrible things and send body parts back to relatives in the post you know these are

[00:23:51] stories I've heard I can't verify them but they're sort of quite commonly perceived stories

[00:23:56] of sort of the brutality of Russian forces when they were the occupying power in Afghanistan

[00:24:01] and certainly rule the terrible things America did do in Iraq Afghanistan I don't think anybody

[00:24:06] didn't think quite like that um you know castrating people and stuff so I don't know it's yeah the

[00:24:14] Russians just don't mess around um and and yeah so it's it's so I think there was some maybe

[00:24:21] some strong man messaging if you want to put it that way with that yeah um I want to touch on

[00:24:26] the like the the conspiratorial notion around the attack um you know that like Ukraine was behind it

[00:24:33] or whether Russian false flag um really made no made no sense to me at all like either no

[00:24:41] either option I mean like so like Ukraine wants to destroy Russia's capacity to wage war right

[00:24:46] so they're targeting uh factories refineries rail yards etc um I just like machine gunning

[00:24:53] random civilians at a concert achieves nothing for them never mind the west reaction if they did

[00:24:58] you know yeah they would lose western support tomorrow you know yeah it would it would be over

[00:25:03] yeah if I felt if if Ukraine did start doing things like that I would uh get off the Ukraine bus

[00:25:11] so to speak yeah um it's just I if Ukraine are not stupid they know that and they would never

[00:25:17] do I just don't think under Lee Sunderzlinski's leadership they wouldn't do anything stupid

[00:25:20] like that as as for the false flag idea the precedents there for sure like you mentioned that

[00:25:27] 1999 um apartment building bombings that were sort of given a pretext for the second Chechen war

[00:25:34] um I don't know what what action Putin would need and we're you know well we're

[00:25:39] several weeks now removed from this attack yeah I don't know what action Putin would need to

[00:25:45] justify as retaliation by framing Ukraine for this like are they gonna invade now

[00:25:52] already done that um like will they will they lob cruise missiles at apartment buildings in

[00:25:57] Kiev they they do that all the time um yeah to do something like this or that scale you know yeah

[00:26:03] I mean would they would would Putin murder like 150 of his own people if he if if if he felt

[00:26:10] it got him something yes I think he would I just don't know what what doing so in this instance would

[00:26:17] would get him you know and you don't look to like malevolence to explain an intelligence

[00:26:22] failure when incompetence works just fine well this is it ultimately nine times out of 10 people

[00:26:28] like Putin are just deeply incompetent I mean that's ultimately what he's covering up is his

[00:26:33] own incompetence he got a very you know he got a clear warning from the US intelligence

[00:26:38] services and he framed it in a way that made it look like there were you know that the US were

[00:26:45] trying to destabilize things a bit like when the Kursk happened the Americans and the British

[00:26:49] and NATO said to to Putin when the Kursk sank well went missing we've got equipment to get people

[00:26:56] out of submarines we can help you find this submarine do you want our help and he said no

[00:27:01] no no no and he stayed that way for a very long time and then eventually when beyond the fact

[00:27:07] when it was clear they were all dead eventually they got western support on the qt to help recover

[00:27:12] the ship and the bodies so yeah yeah yeah and a lot of deep-sea diving training but anyway

[00:27:20] yeah so it's uh but yeah yeah I know I think the problem is the lifeblood of the internet is

[00:27:25] sensationalism um and it tends to be sensationalism from an alt right stroke conspiratorial

[00:27:31] viewpoint so every time something terrible happens there's always a whole load of people

[00:27:38] making their entire living out of just framing it as a conspiracy of some sort and so yeah it does

[00:27:43] not surprise me that there are well it's interesting actually the conspiracy movement for the

[00:27:51] ISIS K attack is sort of well the the truth erism of it has sort of died down a bit I've noticed

[00:27:56] the Ukraine bit stays but the truth erism behind it we're saying Putin did it seems to have died down

[00:28:02] a bit and it's probably because it doesn't serve um Russia's interests and usually they're the ones

[00:28:08] also not that's also not a right wing narrative to push it you know like the people who usually

[00:28:14] push those conspiracy theories have no interest in pushing that conspiracy so you don't hear about

[00:28:19] it no if you know if there was something happened in Ukraine and they could blame it on Zelensky

[00:28:24] um that narrative would carry on constantly right so it's yeah yeah no there we go well um

[00:28:30] anything else to add to that or should we should we move on okay well the next one is on point really

[00:28:37] it's about the usa to Ukraine debacle which is still going on in real time pretty much isn't it

[00:28:42] so i'll hand this over to you matt yes this is uh this is uh one I've I wanted to touch on here

[00:28:48] for um a little bit and I'll sort of go into why and stuff in a in a second but I'm drawing

[00:28:53] for two from two articles here on this one is from the New York Times the others from the Guardian

[00:28:57] links for all this stuff will be in the show notes of course so uh House Speaker Mike Johnson

[00:29:02] continues to face pressure to advance the Ukrainian aid package amidst the threat of a revolt from

[00:29:07] the hard right wing of his party that could cost him his job Johnson plans to address Ukraine

[00:29:12] funding after after the house reconvenes after a recess this week um hard right Republicans led

[00:29:18] by figures like Marshal Tyler Green vehemently oppose additional aid to Ukraine with green

[00:29:23] threatening to alce Johnson in an interview Johnson hinted at potential amendments to the aid package

[00:29:29] including loans to Ukraine or redirecting seas assets from Russian oligarchs other Republicans

[00:29:35] like House Intelligence Committee chair Mike Turner are arguing for urgent action warning of the

[00:29:40] consequences to Ukrainian morale the longer aid is delayed legislative options include a

[00:29:46] Senate approved $95 billion package and a smaller $66 billion bill posed in the House the latter

[00:29:54] carving out humanitarian aid in favor of military aid only Democrats prefer the Senate package but

[00:30:01] currently lack the 218 signatures needed for a discharge petition to bypass Johnson's authority

[00:30:08] and force the bill to a vote Johnson needs bipartisan support for any aid package facing

[00:30:12] challenges due to hard right opposition and a narrow Republican majority which I think now is down to

[00:30:17] like two or three or something like that it's it's very close um which has been whittled down to

[00:30:24] a few after several midterm resignations Marjorie Taylor Green's threat of a motion to vacate

[00:30:29] Speaker Johnson adds to the uncertainty creating a creating the potential for more chaos in

[00:30:34] House leadership some Democrats have expressed conditional support for Johnson offering him

[00:30:39] the votes to save his speakership while progressives like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

[00:30:43] demand legislative concessions however even some hard right Republicans hesitate to house Johnson

[00:30:49] due to the risk of a Democratic Speaker as the House reconvenes Johnson faces critical decision

[00:30:54] on whether to risk his speakership on Ukraine funding so a couple notes on here and then

[00:30:59] I'll hand it over to Chris so I flagged this story because it's one of those issues

[00:31:06] that's a domestic story for me and about half of our audience but an international one for you Chris

[00:31:12] and the other half it's also the one obstacle for Ukraine getting a military aid it desperately

[00:31:17] needs I've also been asked more than once what's the hold up so a couple notes on congressional

[00:31:24] rules that aren't clearly explained in the articles here that I think will help people

[00:31:28] understand how and why this is happening so some version of a Ukraine aid bill has always had

[00:31:36] majority support in Congress it easily passes Senate the votes are 100 percent there to pass it

[00:31:42] in the House however the Speaker's office alone has authority to schedule votes on pending

[00:31:47] legislation then there's the hazard rule which says that the Speaker will not schedule a floor

[00:31:54] vote on any bill that does not have majority support within their party even if the majority of

[00:31:59] members of the House would vote to pass it so it's like the majority of the majority right

[00:32:04] it's an informal principle not written into any actual rules and is absolutely anti-democratic

[00:32:10] partisan exercise often applied selectively when politically expedient what them's the breaks

[00:32:16] it's unclear how many Republicans would vote for Ukraine aid on the floor but I give decent

[00:32:22] odds that it probably won't be the majority of them a lot but they'll have a lot of defections too

[00:32:30] yeah the bill would likely then only pass with overwhelming democratic support and it's this

[00:32:37] sort of looming partisan embarrassment and the promised you know Roth of his hard right flank

[00:32:44] surely to follow that prevents Johnson from bringing up to a vote then I hear you ask but

[00:32:50] Matt isn't there some parliamentary trick to get around Tim into that I answer there's this procedure

[00:32:55] called the discharge petition that would force the Speaker to move a bill out of committee into the

[00:32:59] floor for a vote if it receives signatures of a clear majority of the House so right now that's 218

[00:33:04] members but that would require several Republicans to openly defy their party leadership and also

[00:33:10] just historically rarely succeeds in practice it's always heard of thrown around as like a

[00:33:15] magic answer then it just doesn't work pretty happens right yeah um so for any of my friends

[00:33:21] overseas who thought if congressional Democrats and Republicans support this aid why can't they

[00:33:26] just get their act together and pass it there's your explanation and if after you're still asking

[00:33:32] but why can't they just get their act together and pass it I'm just as frustrated as you

[00:33:38] is infuriating and we deal with it all the time now and not just on foreign issues either

[00:33:43] but this is our system for better or worse and here's how it gets abused yeah well I want to

[00:33:48] make sure I understand it really so am I right that basically I get the impression that traditional

[00:33:54] Republicans should say of the kind of the bush ilk would be more supportive of giving aid to

[00:34:00] Ukraine but it tends to be the more MAGA Republicans who are the ones who kind of

[00:34:05] opposed to it is that right do you think yeah that's true as a generalization because I think

[00:34:09] yes so it's a Republican party appears to be going through a bit of a crisis doesn't

[00:34:15] it where it's trying to work out you've got this sort of isolationist MAGA side and then you've

[00:34:21] got the kind of the more bush interventionist side like the Reagan kind of yeah and so

[00:34:30] yeah so this so internally that's become the issue and then Johnson sort of the man in the

[00:34:35] middle I don't know where Johnson fits on the scale from MAGA to Reagan where is he at that scale

[00:34:42] he's I think he's sort of naturally moved with his environment yeah so he's a bit like Mitch

[00:34:49] McConnell but of an opportunist and kind of yeah yeah it was that a bit too general that's not

[00:34:55] a bad way to look at it hmm yeah yeah I don't think there I don't think it's a one-to-one

[00:35:00] comparison between the two um Johnson's way more of a sort of a Christian nationalist frankly like I

[00:35:09] think he would describe himself as a Christian nationalist I'm not saying that to like insult him

[00:35:14] then then Mitch McConnell but they are sort of um I don't know it's if you look at like

[00:35:21] the hard right of the side of the caucus and their influence on McConnell to a lesser extent

[00:35:28] but Johnson also it's very much like the tail wagging the dog you know yeah yeah indeed yeah and

[00:35:35] and like with the MAGA side of things um you know it was it made Marjorie Taylor Greene was

[00:35:42] echoing Russian propaganda the other day saying the Ukrainian government are attacking Christians

[00:35:47] and Russia's not doing that and they seem to be protecting it and by protecting it she

[00:35:51] means protecting Christianity so she's sort of coming at the Ukraine issue from this weirdly

[00:35:57] kind of pseudo-Christian kind of position um that seems to be you know basically in support of

[00:36:05] Russia and as we've said before and I've you know bore people to death as probably is that you know

[00:36:09] we've been saying that Russia's positioning itself um and has been for the last 20 years a sort of

[00:36:14] the savior of the white Christian world which then seems to intersect with MAGA Republicans

[00:36:20] this thing um and and I think this is partly obviously not completely but partly explains why

[00:36:27] should we say the real diehard MAGA Republicans are opposed to aid then you've probably got the

[00:36:33] opportunist MAGA Republicans who just want to I don't know be successful and powerful and then

[00:36:39] you've got the um the Republican stroke uh yeah the sort of Reagan stroke Bush Republicans scratching

[00:36:46] their head trying to work out what the hell's going on even though they kind of sowed the seeds

[00:36:50] for this by the way they used Christianity during the war on terror so it's a real damn mess

[00:36:57] um from very quite a few different things and sadly it's costing Ukrainian lives and

[00:37:04] and it's making the Biden administration look a bit feckless internationally um and also yeah

[00:37:09] it's totally out of totally out of their power you know like you're I know Tara Skuzio hearing

[00:37:15] your interview with him like very frustrated and there's a lot of people in Europe um who were yeah

[00:37:21] that's it's totally out of his hands yeah exactly because it's not like and and I because because

[00:37:28] America's not at war itself the president doesn't really have authority to bypass anything does he

[00:37:34] if America were at war am I right that there's an executive order he could do but yeah there's

[00:37:39] like the defense production act and everything and is that was the national defense yeah but

[00:37:44] that's not on the table no it's not and it never would be in this situation because it's just doesn't

[00:37:50] he's kind of it has some echoes the echoes to what happened during well the early days of World War

[00:37:55] II before America officially came on board I have that in my notes yeah you know yeah the

[00:38:00] America first movement back then were isolationists a bit pro-Hitler um and against because of the

[00:38:08] horrors of World War I and stuff partly um they didn't want America engaged in another as they

[00:38:14] saw it European war and it has so many echoes there of that well so I mean yeah like as as you said

[00:38:21] I mean said it perfectly like we confronted the same hurdle in supplying aid to the UK in those

[00:38:25] couple years before Pearl Harbor and then Pearl Harbor completely changed everything right and

[00:38:30] it's yeah that that non-interventionist streak in our culture that was really prevalent then

[00:38:34] and I don't think has been more so now than it has been at any point since then um and the problem

[00:38:40] is it doesn't sit neatly on either side of the political spectrum you know I mean as you said

[00:38:45] like after World War I there's a genuine weariness of getting dragged into another major foreign

[00:38:51] war that seemingly had nothing to do with us you know like you had like people said you know oh

[00:38:55] like Herr Hitler is a strong leader pulling his people out of depression and we could use that here

[00:39:00] he makes good roads apparently right uh Britain can't possibly win on her own you know so why bother

[00:39:06] supporting her and you know we should sue for peace instead Joseph Kennedy was saying stuff like that

[00:39:11] wasn't it right the the the Germans are the only bulwark left against the godless communist

[00:39:16] horde from Asia dominating all of Europe and you know some a lot of people like earnestly I

[00:39:21] would say naively but earnestly believe this while you had some like you know Charles Lindberg

[00:39:28] argued for non-intervention because they were sympathetic to Nazi ideology and originally

[00:39:32] segregated America like people forget Jim Crow laws were actually a model for the Nazis yeah

[00:39:38] um yeah and they preferred the fascist system to our own you know today Margie Taylor Green

[00:39:44] opposes US support for Ukraine because Putin's Russia styles itself as a white conservative

[00:39:49] Christian fundamentalist state and and she wants the US to be one too the other similarity

[00:39:56] to to that time um you know back then as well some prominent American business some prominent American

[00:40:03] industrialists believe that Jeffersonian democracy might be nearing its end as a political

[00:40:08] experiment but capitalism didn't necessarily need to die with it you know so like they saw no reason

[00:40:13] why their businesses couldn't thrive under a far right autocracy provided you know they remained

[00:40:18] on the right side of the autocrat and so they had their bets and you know the same thing is

[00:40:22] happening now with Elon Musk and a host of other tech billionaires feigning concern over nuclear war

[00:40:28] and calling on Ukraine to negotiate which we know as code for letting Russia takes whatever it wants

[00:40:33] now consider that moment in history if and how things might be today if the Germans had deep

[00:40:39] fake AI and social media algorithms to push it all at scale yeah yeah I still wonder how

[00:40:43] we won world war two sometimes it's kind of amazing when I look into the history of it because

[00:40:48] as a kid it seemed like you know quite obvious to everybody that Nazis were bad but then as you

[00:40:53] look into it more and more you realize there was actually a debate I think once we started fighting

[00:41:00] like after after Dunkirk and I'm gonna say the battle of midway right um

[00:41:09] I think it was it was assured that we were going to eventually win but for a while there before

[00:41:15] before the fighting started in earnest there like in the 30s and even up into the early very early 40s

[00:41:22] it was not assured at all the outcome that we got and actually it's kind of incredible that

[00:41:28] that we did and in the early days of war bit like Ukraine you know I think

[00:41:33] Britain wasn't doing great obviously Dunkirk major defeats um and it makes it and I think and

[00:41:40] I don't mean this as a criticism I think America and American politicians like winners and Britain

[00:41:46] wasn't the winner and on top of that the American ambassador at the time which was Joseph Kennedy

[00:41:51] was sending constant cables back to HQ saying are the Britons and the British are hopeless they're

[00:41:56] you know they're people uh desperate and they're not winners you know basically saying they're

[00:42:01] not winners and um I could be wrong but I think it was when we bombed the French fleet

[00:42:06] Mirzel Kabeer that things changed I think that's when when Britain was suddenly seen as being

[00:42:13] really serious about winning this war where we bombed the French fleet that nearly fell into

[00:42:18] Nazi hands I could be wrong but I think that was a big turning point in the in the background

[00:42:24] and obviously Roosevelt was always very pro trying to help Britain but his hands were

[00:42:28] politically tied and I think he did he did a lot to help Britain um in many ways that he

[00:42:35] rested his entire political career on and you know I think most of the support didn't really come

[00:42:39] out publicly until after the war I think I could be wrong but well there was that there is that

[00:42:45] I think it's in um oh god what's the Gary Oldman church held darkest hour oh yeah I still yet

[00:42:50] to see that one there's a scene in there where he's on the phone with Roosevelt right

[00:42:55] and and there's a bunch of like war equipment I think it's tanks or something I don't know some

[00:43:01] kind of war equipment that they'd bought from the Americans right that Churchill was trying to get

[00:43:07] delivered into Canada right and laws that were passed by non-interventionist in Congress at the

[00:43:13] time uh they could only like the Americans the US couldn't drive it over the border and like

[00:43:23] Roosevelt says to Churchill like well why you can bring horses and carriages and put it on there

[00:43:27] and then bring it back across the border and it's very clear Roosevelt wanted to help Roosevelt was

[00:43:32] entirely Roosevelt saw what was going on it was entirely on the right side of this but the laws

[00:43:37] and the people in Congress then as of now tie his hands so you can see all the parallels of that

[00:43:43] I mean I think we're especially Britain we're very guilty of always constantly comparing things to

[00:43:48] World War II but I think definitely this is the clearer comparison in recent history I don't think

[00:43:54] you could really compare what happened in 9-11 to World War II and the response to it but um

[00:43:58] this definitely feels very you know very much like a page out of history repeating itself

[00:44:04] and the fact that you've got an America first movement is just pain you know borderline

[00:44:08] comical literally yeah borderline comical is yeah right let's take a break and we'll be right back

[00:44:19] so

[00:44:33] welcome back everybody so moving on to I think one of the more interesting stories in the last

[00:44:39] couple of weeks at least for me um has been some new revelations about Havana syndrome that have

[00:44:44] come about due to an investigation by Bellingcat the insider in 60 minutes and a documentary came

[00:44:50] out about their sort of findings and I'll just do my best to very briefly go through I say briefly but

[00:44:56] I'll do my best to kind of quickly cover as much as I can but I do recommend that you read the

[00:45:01] article by the insider that will be in our show notes because it goes into an awful lot of detail

[00:45:06] about Havana syndrome and in fact I've got some interviews coming up we should be airing

[00:45:10] latter part of next week if all goes to plan that might provide some more context to maybe some of

[00:45:15] the technology and some of the legal side of things so um so I'll do my best to cover all this so the

[00:45:21] anomalous health instance also known as Havana syndrome may have had their origin in the use

[00:45:27] of directed energy weapons wielded by members of the Russian GRU unit 29155 members of the

[00:45:34] Kremlin's infamous military sabotage squad have been placed at the scene of suspected

[00:45:39] attacks on overseas US government personnel and their family members leading victims to question

[00:45:45] what Washington knows about the origins of Havana syndrome and what an appropriate Western response

[00:45:51] might entail new evidence suggests that the Russian intelligence services targeted US personnel abroad

[00:45:58] and some of those victims have been linked to the building of the US government's covert

[00:46:02] relationship with the Ukrainian intelligence services in 2014 which we talked about was it

[00:46:07] the last episode or the episode before and I also talked about it a little bit with Dr.

[00:46:11] Tarris Cusio just last week and those US personnel and members of their families have fallen victim

[00:46:18] to the symptoms known as Havana syndrome and the symptoms include an acute ringing sound a

[00:46:24] feeling of fullness in the head so kind of increased pressure piercing headaches and vomiting

[00:46:30] and in long term symptoms include memory loss balance issues and impaired vision so one

[00:46:35] victim in particular was interviewed in 60 minutes has lost almost all vision in one of his eyes which

[00:46:41] is pretty horrific and also apparently in some instances the screens of electronic devices

[00:46:48] such as smartphones and computer screens have been damaged when an alleged attack has happened

[00:46:55] so that was very interesting because I've not heard of that before and there was a medical study

[00:46:59] of Havana syndrome by Dr. David A. Relman and he found evidence of an injury to the auditory

[00:47:06] and vestibular system of the brain starting with the inner ear where humans perceive sound

[00:47:12] and sense balance and translate those perceptions into electric signals I hope that makes

[00:47:18] sense to people um it just about makes sense to me but and the study found that directed

[00:47:23] pulse radio frequency energy appears to be the most plausible mechanism such as a focused microwave

[00:47:30] beam or acoustic ultrasound and apparently more than 100 personnel and and their family members

[00:47:37] have have these unexplained and persistent symptoms. Lieutenant Colonel Greg Edggreen of

[00:47:44] the US Army spearheaded an investigation commissioned by the Pentagon and he believes that Russia

[00:47:50] is responsible for the attacks and he noted that the personnel who had been targeted were all

[00:47:55] considered top caliber officers you know kind of the top five to ten percent performing officers

[00:48:01] within the intelligence services and their respective agencies and all of those officers had

[00:48:06] links to operations involving Russia and as I said earlier some of those officers in particular

[00:48:11] were connected to the early days of Ukraine's covert relationship with the US government

[00:48:16] so that was that was quite an interesting revelation I felt and Lieutenant Colonel Edggreen

[00:48:20] continued that he felt the US government doesn't deal this head on things will get worse

[00:48:25] and the US government officially has said there's no credible evidence that there have

[00:48:29] been attacks linked to Russia so all of that just scratches the surface of a very detailed

[00:48:36] article by the insider which I do recommend you read but Matt I'm going to hand over to you

[00:48:41] what are your your thoughts on all of this yeah um you know you and I discuss offline recently I think

[00:48:48] right after this news broke how kind of odd it is that like the assumption right after these cases began

[00:48:54] was yeah it's probably Russian intelligence using a directed energy weapon and then we went through

[00:48:59] years of this like tortured back and forth like we don't know what it is or it's probably

[00:49:04] psychosomatic and there were even some pretty I would when you have your interview later

[00:49:08] this week I would like you to sort of bring this up a bit there were even some pretty

[00:49:12] unkind dismissive portrayals of the victims is basically like hypochondriacs you know

[00:49:17] I've seen yeah yeah yeah now Occam's razor turns out yeah it's probably Russian intelligence

[00:49:24] using a directed energy weapon I suppose it depends on which brand of Occam's razor

[00:49:28] use really doesn't it yeah not any uh not any Russian made yeah but like looking at the string

[00:49:35] of targets presented here the who the where the when I mean Russia does seem like an obvious culprit

[00:49:41] you know like if you have uh Ukraine and Georgia precisely at the moment CIA stations are staffing

[00:49:48] up to counter Russian activities there um Havana following the US Cuban rep reshma

[00:49:55] the objectives and the motives are pretty clear you know like harass American personnel

[00:50:00] high performing American personnel and their dependence to disrupt operations and make it

[00:50:04] more difficult for the US to strengthen ties in countries where Russia is fighting to maintain

[00:50:09] influence and to take revenge against certain officers they hold responsible for the influence

[00:50:14] they've already lost like they say um right I'm gonna start it in the in the 60 minute

[00:50:18] I forget if this came up directly in the article but it does in the 60 minutes article

[00:50:23] sorry in the 60 minutes piece that's connected to it um almost everyone targeted by this thing

[00:50:30] or affected by it we'll say um were involved in dealing with the Russians in some way

[00:50:39] which I think is very telling uh of the two and I would love to hear what you think about

[00:50:46] this part so in the in the um and the insider article they offer like two possible reasons of

[00:50:52] why people um feel that the intelligence community has withheld um all that it all that it knows about

[00:51:00] Havana syndrome and they say the first is that releasing the full intelligence around

[00:51:05] Russian involvement might be so shocking as to convince the American people and their

[00:51:09] representatives that Moscow has committed an active war against the United States or

[00:51:13] acknowledging that Havana syndrome is caused by a foreign adversary could put a damper on

[00:51:17] recruitment to this CIA and the State Department after all how many Americans would be willing

[00:51:22] to serve their country overseas in the full knowledge that their next load of laundry or

[00:51:26] monitoring or morning jaunt to the embassy could result in permanent physical and mental health

[00:51:31] ailments that's their quote there I've definitely got to push back their second point I think

[00:51:35] what's more of a turn off is when the American government turned their back on their own

[00:51:39] personnel who had been injured in the line of duty yeah which is what it feels like at the

[00:51:43] moment right neither reason felt felt quite complete to me I can understand reason one

[00:51:51] I think right yeah the American government concerned because again we had some we've had some

[00:51:56] suspicious murders of Russians in Britain I think it's about 11 of them that were ruled

[00:52:01] unexplained deaths or suicides that are now being re-looked at because at that time

[00:52:07] both the Blair government and then the Cameron government the Brown government and the Cameron

[00:52:11] government were concerned and this is after 2006 when Litvinenko had been poisoned by

[00:52:16] polonium they were and British relations were at all time low with Russia that they were concerned

[00:52:21] that the British public might be so outraged by all this that it would force their hand to do

[00:52:26] something they don't necessarily want to do and I have a feeling that there is an element of truth

[00:52:32] that because both the Trump administration and the Biden administration kind of played this down

[00:52:37] so it's not it's not one or the other it's both of them have done that and the only conclusion

[00:52:41] you can draw from that is there is a level of concern about how this is perceived there is

[00:52:46] a third point I would throw in was it's a bit like Gold War syndrome where I think that the American

[00:52:51] government are probably concerned that they have some sort of they might get sued by a person

[00:52:57] now because of a lack of duty of care and so there might be some sort of legal stroke financial

[00:53:02] repercussion now again I could be wrong but I I I suspect that could be a factor but we'll

[00:53:09] see better way back to you Matt sorry I just think like how extensive would a campaign and this

[00:53:15] this stuff is very serious I'm not downplaying this at all it's very serious people you know

[00:53:19] it's not just their families there's not even right just the person now it's like the wife or

[00:53:24] if kids have been affected I could be wrong but yeah kids at least they talk about in the

[00:53:28] in the 60 minute piece but like how extensive would a campaign of less than lethal attacks

[00:53:34] largely directed against US diplomats intelligence officers need to be for Americans

[00:53:38] to demand open war against Russia I mean if anything I think Americans could use a reason

[00:53:44] to be angered with with Russia right now as for their recruitment concern I mean I

[00:53:51] really don't want this to sound flippant but I mean anyone signing up and I will

[00:53:56] clarify this in a second so hold your pitchforks yeah if as for their recruitment concern right

[00:54:03] I think anyone signing up to serve overseas must know that they could be like shot blown up

[00:54:10] kidnapped and tortured beheaded just saying nothing of this stuff right if they're not aware

[00:54:16] of that danger they should be and at that risk is a deal breaker and for many it will be

[00:54:21] this isn't the job for them it's the deliberate targeting of families and the domestic incidents

[00:54:26] that worry me I mean I think like people will accept a great risk of physical harm for themselves

[00:54:31] they won't accept it for their kids listen and it's happened in on US soil hasn't it outside the

[00:54:37] White House yeah and I think there was even an attack in Britain so usually these sort of things

[00:54:43] would happen to personnel abroad like when they're based in Moscow Vienna wherever there's the

[00:54:49] good well Vienna's the more glamorous location out of those two so you kind of like professional

[00:54:55] except there's going to be risk abroad but there should never be risk in your home soil

[00:55:00] and that is a bit of a game changer and I guess then another thought is on a government down

[00:55:06] playing it just because that they've just not really dealt with it in a particularly great way

[00:55:11] and they can't guarantee the safety of their own personnel I don't know it's right

[00:55:15] I think also I mean like the IC shouldn't hide behind classification markings and a need to

[00:55:20] protect sources and methods as an excuse to deny these people that you know the treatment

[00:55:25] that they need for these injuries yeah it's like you mentioned the Gulf War syndrome

[00:55:29] it also reminds me of like the lawsuits that were brought against the air force in the 90s by two

[00:55:35] I think was security guards at area 51 and they claim to have worked at the base in the 70s and 80s

[00:55:43] and alleged that their sort of like terminal respiratory liver like medical issues

[00:55:50] were a result of the chemicals that were discarded and burned in these open trenches

[00:55:54] upwind of the dormitories and he had that the Presidio as well in San Francisco when it closed it down

[00:55:59] I mean so like these were these chemicals being burned were likely components of

[00:56:05] the RAM so the radar absorbent material that at that time would have been used to coat early

[00:56:11] operational F1 17s and probably B2 prototypes yeah and like the exact chemicals in this coating

[00:56:19] are some of like the most closely guarded secrets that we have and the air force wouldn't help them at

[00:56:25] all like just refused refuse to verify their employment or even acknowledge that area 51

[00:56:30] even existed right like this is the first time that area 51 even got like serious news coverage

[00:56:34] was because these lawsuits and that to me like that just that that that gas lighting that

[00:56:39] like denial of information that could aid their medical care is just so wrong it is these people

[00:56:44] have served you is like yeah right yeah these these guys I mean just like these victims those

[00:56:49] guys just like these victims now like there are people you know they were injured serving their

[00:56:54] country like we have a duty to take care of them and the you can't tell me there isn't some carve

[00:56:59] out inside the VA or within the DoD's own health system that can give these people the medical

[00:57:06] attention they need while protecting state secrets yeah they could set something up

[00:57:11] they could set something up I have a strong suspicion that we have a very good idea of specifically

[00:57:16] how this thing works and like literally what physically is happening to people you know when

[00:57:22] they get hit by it and we don't really want to reveal that you know but like don't tell me that

[00:57:29] it can't be done that you can't find some way to give these people the medical care they need

[00:57:34] while protecting that stuff that you don't want to get out you set up an ultra secret

[00:57:38] hospital somewhere ultra secret where you get unlimited health care to deal with said secret

[00:57:44] illness yeah and that's it as what it takes isn't it I mean the DoD has its own system of hospitals

[00:57:51] and clinics and all kinds of research medical research facilities like spanning the globe don't

[00:57:57] tell me you can't find a way to handle this yeah within that yeah it's ridiculous now this is

[00:58:02] so that's what puts people off that's why people get disenchanted with the government

[00:58:07] get cynical about government care and unfortunately Britain and America do have a bad history certainly

[00:58:13] the British military has a history sometimes of failing people um and the one thing I have noticed

[00:58:21] I could be wrong and things may have improved but officers tend to get looked after better than

[00:58:26] the ordinary soldier I think as the non-commissioned soldier I think that's what the

[00:58:30] terminology for a regular soldier is yeah but the you know officers tend to get looked after

[00:58:36] better um and that's wrong everybody if you've served your country you put your life on the

[00:58:43] line for your country and already you've accepted that yeah you're gonna get a pretty crap paycheck

[00:58:47] because again we have another problem in the UK at the moment um a lot of uh I think it's

[00:58:53] mainly the British army it could be RAF too but a lot of soldiers have very poor living

[00:58:59] facilities very poor quality some got terrible black mold and all sorts things and that again

[00:59:04] that's terrible it is appalling they shouldn't I mean I'm not saying that you should be getting

[00:59:07] five star I mean it'd be good if you could afford a five star Ritz experience but what you

[00:59:12] could at least do is just make sure places are safe clean and you know and of an acceptable

[00:59:20] standard but that's not the case um and and I just don't understand it and it's just that

[00:59:27] ah there's something going very wrong when you're not looking after your own people who

[00:59:30] are serving you um something has gone terribly wrong there and it and I just boggles my mind

[00:59:36] especially like you know there's aspects of Britain and American culture that are very

[00:59:42] militaristic and you know in Britain we have the poppy appeal every year um and it always um

[00:59:48] seems to get some people getting very uh very pro-militarians and then you get the kind

[00:59:54] of people who a bit more should say far left you bring up this endless debate of you know

[00:59:58] should we have a you know be supported the military in this way and I'm going to wear a white

[01:00:02] poppy instead of a red poppy but if you're wearing a red poppy for god's sake surely you've got to

[01:00:06] think that we've got to look after people you know and I just don't understand why we don't say

[01:00:11] yeah I I share that same sentiment with you man it it's just boggles my mind and the gas

[01:00:18] lighting side of it too is appalling um because I think you were saying oh no I think I've

[01:00:22] seen it some victims have just been made out to be liars um or hypochondriacs um you know and

[01:00:31] these are the top five percent five to ten percent of performers in the US government if you're

[01:00:36] treating them like that again that's gonna look bad so I don't know very weird but I'm hoping

[01:00:44] I'm hoping to learn more about the technology behind it because that's the thing I'm

[01:00:47] because here's the thing about the directs energy weapons I'm trying to get my head round

[01:00:53] how you power such a device um in the 60 minutes documentary they showed something like a big

[01:00:58] walkie-talkie now I don't know that was the directs energy weapon now I thought it was but

[01:01:03] when I rewatched the documentary are you jump out that it um it almost looked like an old

[01:01:08] like an old like an early 2000s kind of cell phone kind of looking thing that that that was

[01:01:13] sort of brown was that the thing that they that they said that he could hit a button and like

[01:01:17] kill all the GPS data in the car that's it that's it so that's very cool that was yes so I I don't

[01:01:23] know but I first watched a 60 minutes documentary actually I finally enough wasn't feeling very

[01:01:27] well at the time I just had some terrible food poisoning so your ears weren't ringing were they

[01:01:32] no I was in a semi-delirious state watching it at like three in the morning um

[01:01:36] so very a very meta um and uh so when that sequence came on I misunderstood because it looked like

[01:01:47] they'd captured a device and and then it turns out that the device they had captured wasn't the

[01:01:52] directs energy weapon but it might be this cool thing that can wipe all electronic data around

[01:01:57] you is it like sitting at a small EMP or something I was it doing I didn't explain how

[01:02:01] it works um I could I could I could look into it but what what what they said was um yeah it looked

[01:02:09] like a sort of like an early 2000s cell phone or like a walkie talkie or something and they said

[01:02:14] it could be used to like sort of clear all the sort of like electronic information in the car

[01:02:21] so like you're like GPS tracking data and all that kind of stuff you could have hit a button

[01:02:24] and all that stuff would just disappear yeah what specifically that is or how it works I have

[01:02:28] no need for something like that but I'd love something like that I'm interested in that yeah

[01:02:32] kind of cool should get them as a sponsor yeah hide your affair with this simple trick yeah

[01:02:41] you might need a new car every time but hey yeah oh well um I don't know this anything else you

[01:02:48] want to add I think I've pretty much said that all I'm going to say I think on this but uh yeah

[01:02:53] I'm um very interested to hear what you learned from your conversations this coming week I think

[01:02:58] that'll be very yeah yeah I won't say who's coming on because they might change their mind but

[01:03:03] fingers crossed that the two guests you've committed so far will join me um and we'll chat about it

[01:03:08] and hopefully be all um better educated on various aspects of this case by the end of it so

[01:03:15] so I know who they are and they're very good people to have on the show yes so I'm quite

[01:03:20] pleased so right well I think we will move over to extra shots so Matt thank you um thank you

[01:03:28] and for those listening out there thank you very much for joining us today if you do want to join

[01:03:32] us an extra shot all we need to do is go to patreon.com slash secrets and spies and you

[01:03:38] can subscribe there I will include a direct link to the next episode of extra shot in the show

[01:03:43] notes so all you actually have to do is click on that link we will be covering Chinese

[01:03:48] disinformation efforts targeting the US elections a Chinese drone flying over the sea of Japan

[01:03:54] and a recent survey that suggests some US gun owners might be considering or might consider

[01:03:59] engaging in political violence um and then we will wrap up by looking at Hollywood's depiction of

[01:04:04] espionage and film and television where can people find us online chris so people can connect

[01:04:08] with us on social media we are on twitter we're on blue sky and spoutable and all we have to do

[01:04:14] is go to those websites and just type in secrets and spies and you'll find us even though you

[01:04:20] might not find us on twitter because I think we've been semi shadow bands on twitter because um

[01:04:25] when you search for us we don't always come up but if you go to the bottom of this of the show notes

[01:04:31] you can click on a direct link there and it should take you to our twitter page and all

[01:04:36] other pages don't forget we're also on youtube so if you'd like looking at squiggly lines as

[01:04:41] we speak you can go to youtube and see us on there um and that's it really so

[01:04:47] and if you if you if you don't like looking at squiggly lines we're gonna we're gonna work on that

[01:04:51] and then your future yeah we're in discussions about how to sort of adjust things for maybe the next

[01:04:56] season of the podcast we might do a few more video interviews and so on I think while I've been

[01:05:02] hesitant with video interviews in the past it's just the varying quality of people um because

[01:05:06] we've guessed we have um we have zero control over the setup of a guest some guests have

[01:05:12] really great setups and some don't um and so at least with audio you can kind of get away with

[01:05:18] that to some extent but with video um you know I'd rather not interview people who look like they're

[01:05:23] in a I don't know a prison cell or something like so yeah so we'll we'll probably only air video

[01:05:29] the video of interviews if it looks good um but certainly between us I think between our setup

[01:05:34] on extra shot we'll um finesse it to a point where we're both happy and then um yeah future

[01:05:40] extra shots um we will be you'll be able to see us I might have to start wearing a disguise I don't

[01:05:44] know but anyway maybe just be back lit um and change my voice I don't know there we go well

[01:05:52] we're gonna go to extra shots so uh thank you very much everybody and take care

[01:05:56] so

[01:06:09] thanks for listening this is secrets and spies

[01:06:25] um

[01:06:50] you