S8 Ep33: Espresso Martini: Tactical nukes, Spies in Brussels, Turkish spies in the West and more

[00:00:00] Hi, everybody. Just a quick note that this episode was recorded before the news of the terrible terrorist attack in Moscow.

[00:00:08] So obviously we don't talk about that and in fact we do have some stories that are critical about the Russian government.

[00:00:14] But we just want to take a moment to say that obviously our heart goes out to the innocence of villains who were affected by the terrorist attack.

[00:00:24] The footage I've seen is pretty brutal. People being machine gun to death is not good at all.

[00:00:29] And I hope that over the next few weeks we find out who is responsible for the terrorist attack and that there is proper justice for that.

[00:00:38] So please bear that in mind as you listen to this episode cause we had no idea what was going to happen that happened.

[00:00:45] So no doubt we will be covering the terrible events in Moscow in a future episode as more information comes to light.

[00:00:52] So on that note I will now start the episode as planned. Thank you for listening.

[00:01:03] Secrets and Spies presents Espresso Martini with Chris Carr and Matt Fulton.

[00:01:23] Hello everybody and welcome to Espresso Martini. Matt how are you doing?

[00:01:27] Hi Chris I'm good. It's good to be back. Yeah. Yeah. Feels like a while now. I know it doesn't mean that long but it does feel like a while ago.

[00:01:34] I think we've said that at the opening of the last episode too. I think we did. Yeah.

[00:01:39] Cause that was the first week about. And then we decided last week probably was the good idea because then we still have another two weeks march to go because March is a five week month.

[00:01:49] March was weird.

[00:01:51] Just like so here we are today. So there we are.

[00:01:55] Yes.

[00:01:56] And on that note, so today we've got some interesting topics. We've got Russia potentially using Newks in Ukraine during 2022.

[00:02:04] Got Spies, Winning and Dining in Brussels.

[00:02:07] And there's a good restaurant recommendation with that one.

[00:02:10] And then we've got Russia sitting up fake news sites and more. And then on our Patreon I only show extra shot.

[00:02:16] We're going to look at how to run a CIA station abroad.

[00:02:19] SAS soldiers accused of murder and reports that the king has died.

[00:02:23] And more fun stuff. It is. And to get access to our show extra shot, you'll need to be a Patreon subscriber.

[00:02:30] So just go to patreon.com forward slash secrets and spies and pick the subscription level that works best for you.

[00:02:37] So Matt, if you don't mind, we will start with your piece about how the US prepared for a potential Russian nuclear strike in Ukraine during 2022.

[00:02:47] Yes. So this is from a piece that was written up on CNN's website.

[00:02:52] It's by Jim Sudo, one of their like sort of big national security correspondence.

[00:02:56] But the name of the article is US prepared rigorously for potential Russian nuclear strike in Ukraine in late 2022 official say so here's some key points.

[00:03:04] So yes, in late 2022, the US intensely prepared for a potential Russian nuclear strike on Ukraine.

[00:03:11] A concern sparked by Russia's deteriorating position in the conflict.

[00:03:14] This is according to details from Jim Sudo's new book, the return of great powers.

[00:03:18] It's I believe it's already been published by now was published earlier in the month at least in the US.

[00:03:25] I'm not sure about elsewhere but in the US, Elise who has published earlier this month.

[00:03:30] Anyway, so the Biden administration specifically feared Russia might employ tactical or battlefield nuclear weapons prompting unprecedented contingency planning.

[00:03:40] Multiple factors contributed to the heightened alarm including sensitive intelligence and the possibility of significant Russian losses in Ukraine.

[00:03:48] This is around the time that like the Ukrainians were pushing to recapture Kyrsán another territory in the east who's timed with with those offensives.

[00:03:58] Russian propaganda about a Ukrainian dirty bomb raised suspicions of a potential cover for a nuclear attack.

[00:04:04] Western intelligence intercepted communications among Russian officials discussing a nuclear strike raising concerns further.

[00:04:11] Despite no clear signs of imminent nuclear mobilization by Russia, US officials remained unsure about detecting tactical nuclear weapons movements.

[00:04:20] Urgent diplomatic outreach including direct communications with Russian officials and coordination with allies aimed to deter a nuclear strike.

[00:04:27] Efforts to enlist the support of China and India were made to dissuade Russia from nuclear escalation we believe.

[00:04:34] While the immediate threat subsided with a period of relative stalemate in the conflict, Vigilance persists with ongoing refinement of plans amid the possibility of future nuclear strikes.

[00:04:44] Chris, what did you think about this?

[00:04:45] Yeah, very interesting piece and it kind of filled in a few gaps about that period of time.

[00:04:51] So I remember the reports of the Russian false flag and the fears that they would use a nuke and blame it on a Ukrainian dirty bomb so that makes a lot of sense.

[00:05:00] One quote that stood out in the article for me was,

[00:05:03] I don't think many of us coming into our jobs expected to be spending significant amounts of time preparing for a scenario which a few years ago was believed to be from a bygone era.

[00:05:14] And that was a senior administration official said that's the author of the piece and so yeah, I mean it's I had an interesting conversation with a taxi driver which you'll hear more about my episode next week with Dr. Taurus Kuzio.

[00:05:28] And this particular taxi driver sort of had this very kind of post colonial and far left view on the conflict in Ukraine and somehow ultimately everything was NATO and America's false and what this article kind of shows quite interestingly is our NATO and America went out of his way to avoid any kind of direct conflict with Russia of this situation.

[00:05:50] They use a lot of diplomatic and behind the scenes methods to try and diswade Russia from using any nuclear weapons.

[00:05:57] Another thing that stood out a little bit as well was the fact that there are some tactical nukes that are so low yields that there was a question about whether or not it would they would even be detected.

[00:06:08] And I thought that was quite interesting because when you think of a tactical nuclear weapon, you still think of Hiroshima or something like that in your mind, your mental picture that always sort of comes up.

[00:06:19] And I remember back in in 2022 around that time seeing some of those US nuke sniffers the WC135 are flying around Poland and and when those planes come out is always like what's that looking for and stuff.

[00:06:37] So was it looking for these potential low yield nuclear weapons being used.

[00:06:42] So yeah, no, I thought I was very good. What else on there?

[00:06:46] And then once this sort of try and understand what the US response was going to be because obviously they don't really say any article it is so I had a quick look around and there was an ask all back from 2022 where David Patreus who was a former Army general basically said the US and its allies would destroy Russian troops and equipment in Ukraine.

[00:07:04] And it would sink the entire black sea fleet which is quite a dramatic thing actually because that would then be America in a direct confrontation with Russia.

[00:07:13] So you can see how this could all escalate and we've been saying for quite some time now about I've always been concerned that this could end up turning into a kind of world war three terrible situation where people are firing nukes at each other.

[00:07:27] And it just shows if Russia had dropped the tactical nuke how things could have escalated if America had then attacked a black sea fleet and in Russia proceed that as a direct threat on themselves.

[00:07:37] You can see how these things kind of can escalate and get out of control.

[00:07:40] So it was I think what this article kind of shows quite well is how the success of the Biden administration in its diplomatic efforts to kind of stop this from happening and using China and India to do that.

[00:07:53] I thought that was really good.

[00:07:55] Yeah, I agree one thing that sort of stood out to me from this piece was the thought that like the false flag operation right that that the Russians were supposedly planning and I had the thought that like

[00:08:14] either using a straight up dirty bomb, which is like radiological material with conventional explosive used to disperge the material over you know an area or a low yield nuclear weapon to the like in like the one to 10 kiloton range.

[00:08:37] Yeah, probably significantly smaller than 10 kilotons probably closer to the one kiloton or even the sub kiloton yield would look in practice like the explosion from that wouldn't be like it wouldn't be like what you would see and like a nuclear test from like the cold war nothing even closer

[00:08:58] to that it would look especially when you get to the kiloton level and below the explosion to the thing that you would see right because you're not going to see the radiation you may see people with radiation poisoning but you're not going to see the radiation that you just get from a dirty bomb right.

[00:09:11] The explosion that you would get from a one kiloton or sub kiloton yield weapon would look similar to just a conventional explosion right you wouldn't have the big the flash in the heat in the mushroom cloud and you know all the

[00:09:27] like shockwave you wouldn't get that as much right yeah and I thought in that scenario if you're trying to pass this off as you Ukrainian quote unquote dirty bomb that to me is easier to exploit in a disinformation environment than using a you know higher yield kind of weapon you know especially because like if you I don't know if you light off something in the 10 kiloton plus you know going up to the side of the

[00:09:56] size of what Hiroshima or Nagasaki what what those bombs were right that's an intensely visual thing that you can't really then spin up your disinformation bullshit machine and say oh was the Ukrainians it was you know whatever right because you can see it anyone can can see that and no that's a nuclear explosion right yeah well do you remember that I'm big explosion in

[00:10:24] Bay Root at the port that everybody thought was a new crew explosion it looked like what yes that was a dark day for me for reasons I don't want to go into but yeah because of that the explosion but yeah so I think I think yeah a lot of people

[00:10:41] yeah a lot of people I suppose it yeah if it looks like a eventual explosion yeah I mean I think yeah if you if you would require a certain bit of hardware that would be less likely Ukraine would have to set off a big right I mean that what would happen in in in Bay Root was I don't remember the number off the top my head but it was like thousands of pounds the equivalent of thousands of pounds of TNT what you saw was

[00:11:11] what you saw was equivalent to a larger size tactical nuclear weapon that would lack like the heat the thermal radiation that a nuke would give off you know but going back to what I thought about like the disinformation thing it would just be a lot easier to launder that through your own Russian channels or through you know useful idiots and bad actors in the west as to create the air of plausible to

[00:11:41] the possibility if it was just a radiological event you know that makes sense when I'm saying that sort of the difference in the in in the way that it's it's visual you know what I mean yeah yeah that just stood out to me as a very kind of insidious way

[00:11:58] about irradiating you know an entire Ukrainian division but but the other story that came out was that the Ukrainians were going to blow up one of their power stations that was the other one and again that kind of so Russia talks in a power station like how what the form the remains of Chernobyl I don't know what would happen if you took that out because it was there's that one in southern Ukraine

[00:12:25] this right on the kneebro river there's a firefight at that power plant relatively early on in the war the name escapes me right now but yeah that's that's sort of been like right on the front lines.

[00:12:40] Yeah and the danger of that power station which then means it can't cool down properly which could then lead to disaster that's just a sad that's the scary thing actually some of these things is didn't need to be a weaponized new kid could just be somebody does right stupid your power state right and it all gets out of hand you know it's yeah the other thing had here that said

[00:13:07] even even smaller yield nuclear weapons there relatively easy to detect through technical means the technical collection means I mean yes the point that the smaller the yield gets the harder it is to detect especially when you're talking like a dirty bomb but those units like those

[00:13:25] depots where such weapons are held are watched like a hawk. I mean the sort of treaty regimes and stuff that we've had in place since the end of the Cold War are kind of gradually being shredded right now but I mean there's all kinds of measures in place to monitor those facilities during the Cold War

[00:13:46] the Soviets the actual warheads were controlled by the KGB whereas like the missiles you know that kind of stuff those were in the hands of like the Red Army right or the strategic rocket force.

[00:14:03] But the warheads themselves were controlled by the KGB and now I think it's there's a there's a main director inside the ministry defense I want to say off the top of my head is a 12 main director it but don't quote me on that anyway it's a it's a director inside the ministry defense that has this role now it's not under.

[00:14:22] You know the F has been here something but you would see.

[00:14:26] We would pick up that transfer and that chain of custody between like the warheads being moved out of their depot you know or or this unit suddenly linking up with this unit that's deployed inside Ukraine or near Ukraine that stuff would be detected and that does stuff stuff that would set off alarm bells for NATO but it would also it would require us to.

[00:14:57] Seeing those kind of weapons in play would require the Pentagon to increase our own defensive posture across the entire US military right like you would have that like Defcon level that's where that stuff would come into play and you would have like the hotline.

[00:15:12] In the National Military Command Center that we go call up to the general staff in Moscow like what the hell you guys doing.

[00:15:19] The other concerning thing there is like the over 10 windows often used to describe like political ideologies and where like this center is on a particular issue right but you also look at I don't know like an over 10 window on the acceptability of weapons of mass destruction right.

[00:15:37] Each time they get used that over 10 window if you will shifts a little bit right like yeah there's no consequence right when there's no consequence this is Obama's red line a Syria chemical weapons where you.

[00:15:48] Used in Syria and there was kind of no real consequence and now it's the next time a dictator uses chemical weapons in a conflict.

[00:15:59] It's not as big of a deal because it's been done before right so if you then have the Russians sort of doing it that like you can use some sort of radiological device or even a low yield tactical battlefield nuclear weapon which you know in the 50s and 60s the 50s especially it was sort of thought that like.

[00:16:19] Nukes would just be casually used in war you know like we were we were changing the structure of US Army divisions to operate in these isolated sort of semi autonomous battle groups so that like one of them could get wiped out by a tactical nuke but you know the whole rest of your force wouldn't like we were changing the way that we did warfare.

[00:16:41] To accommodate this and then smartly realized okay no that's insane you know we're just going to dial it back so that it's so taboo that like you don't even touch these weapons right they're there for deterrence you know but if Putin and the Russians you know yeah light off some kind of radiological device or small low yield tactical nuke in Ukraine.

[00:17:04] It makes it a whole lot more likely that you know Kim Jong-un will say okay why don't I use it against Japan at South Koreans or the Chinese are going to say type A you have you know 48 hours to surrender Taiwan or we're going to you know nuke this facility you know you get to that kind of.

[00:17:29] Bringsmanship that hostage taking like I said it just moves the over to window to a place where the use of these weapons are are more tolerated I want to say and I think.

[00:17:42] Like your son of the Triases article that you know it's I think making the costs of the use of those weapons very clear like what we said you know will destroy your invasion for us will destroy the Black Sea fleet

[00:17:54] And then you know if you want to if you the Russians want to walk away at that point that's okay if not you know you ratchet up the escalation ladder until you're talking about the extinction of the human race.

[00:18:06] You know um yeah I think it's making the cost of that use very clear and it's also I mean the Russians when they even before they invaded Ukraine they wanted to do some false fly kind of operation to give them a pretext to do so tried repeatedly several different

[00:18:24] plans and you know the Biden administration I think very smartly strategically declassified our intelligence on that stuff and sort of named and shamed these efforts you know like we know what you're doing it's not going to work.

[00:18:40] And you know the Russians ultimately just sort of invaded right there was no sort of false fly pretext yeah I mean a whole war is on a pretext of nonsense because the Russians are saying they're.

[00:18:52] Going into liberate the Russian speaking Ukrainians from neo nazis right but you didn't have like in the opening days of the war you didn't have like a supposed attack by Ukrainian forces inside Russia or against the Russian speaking population inside Ukraine that then put go out and say hey we got to invade to defend Russian speakers you know the Russian diaspora that didn't happen not because they didn't want to but because we we blew the operation and I think that's.

[00:19:22] Ultimately what we did here yeah yeah because Putin did it with Chetchen it didn't he blew up the apartment block allegedly yes allegedly but it's an interesting one that one because over the years even I was a bit like because it kind of got into that 9 11 and.

[00:19:40] Kind of true for territory for me and for a while very skeptical those claims but I spoke to so many people who.

[00:19:49] Yeah people like Edward Lucas things that that who take it is a fact I'm like yeah really just seem to be a given that he did do that this interesting stuff the those attacks which was the pretext for the second Chetchen war

[00:20:01] What sort of happened it was like a wedding like 2000 right I think yes I've a 99 2000s very early in Putin's yeah that was at a time that like.

[00:20:11] I mean such a dark conspiracy false flag stuff it was it was the realm of like B Hollywood movies still yeah you know it's not so much the case now no no and let the Nyanco was the one who pushed out theory in the West when he came here.

[00:20:29] I still read his book actually but it is called blowing up Russia or something isn't and it does talk about the FSB operation yeah that allegedly blew up those apartment blocks

[00:20:39] but the cornerstone of Russian foreign policy has always been to create a crisis and then step in and volunteer to solve it.

[00:20:51] Yeah yeah yeah and you can see how they they're talking points for Ukraine or a bit like that with this whole fake neo Nazi thing that's you know so funny still people on the far left who believe that you know and this taxi driver I met in London.

[00:21:06] Yeah we believe that still even after all this happened if that's your media diet if you're like you know I don't I don't trust the mainstream media you know I'm going to do my own research which is based and we're going to talk about this in a bit more but is basically code for I'm going to Google until I find something that says what I want to believe yeah.

[00:21:26] Yeah you're really prone to that kind of thinking yeah definitely what is it going against conventional wisdom feels sometimes.

[00:21:37] It feels like you're smart when you do it it does yeah but in reality nine times out of 10 it's not true yeah you're not that smart no no exactly I thought that was a very interesting piece it kind of helped kind of put some reasoning behind some of the things that were going on back then you know such recent history

[00:21:56] Yeah I would say that we're not done with this and I've said on here repeatedly again like because of our own issues in Congress right now this is not on the table right now at all but when Crimea comes into play.

[00:22:12] That's when it's going to get dangerous yeah yeah because this this the thing isn't because I think every bit of land that Russia successfully manages to hold onto and

[00:22:23] take as their own is going to be much harder to get back oh yeah I've yeah well I think we've talked about here before that you know whenever the Ukrainians decide that they want to come to the

[00:22:33] negotiating table they better be damn certain that's about when they do it because whatever territory the Russians hold at that time

[00:22:42] it's going to be next to impossible to get about yeah yeah indeed so yeah we'll keep an eye on this situation and about

[00:22:51] doubt I'm sure we will be talking about this topic again very soon I just hope we don't glow in the dark as a result of it but there we go yeah I'm a little pale I could you know bad nuclear joke there yeah

[00:23:06] well let's let's move to Brussels which I don't know his Brussels cheerio probably is a little bit because Brussels has nice restaurants and things so it's a sort of slightly nicer place where you would do your kind of

[00:23:16] finer dining kind of espionage I've had a few lovely meals in Brussels yeah I remember walking into like the old city center there

[00:23:29] the for the first time it was like it was sort of like early evening and spring should it late spring night it was it was

[00:23:35] it was lovely cool I mean if I was an intelligence officer the places that would be my vibe would be like Brussels Vienna

[00:23:41] Copenhagen maybe somewhere in Canada New York that's my kind of place to go spying anywhere else not so

[00:23:49] interested and clearly I'm not alone in this so apparently according to the Belgian justice minister

[00:23:58] Brussels has is facing pervasive espionage threats and the city host key international institutions and numerous diplomatic

[00:24:06] missions and the espionage risks come from Russia and China and some other countries as well and they their

[00:24:14] efforts have sort of escalated so apparently the reason is Brussels boasts 175 diplomatic missions and

[00:24:21] 150 international bodies in the city so it makes a prime target for espionage people wanting to know what

[00:24:28] diplomats are thinking etc now exact figures on how many spies are operating in this city is not

[00:24:34] available but Belgian intelligence sources speak of several hundred spies being at work in Brussels

[00:24:40] the spies work under cover and operates typically as journalists lobbyists foreign students and diplomats

[00:24:46] obviously diplomatic status offers spies the best protection as they possess immunity from prosecution

[00:24:53] so that's why you get expulsions every so often rather than arrests interestingly as well

[00:24:59] was not just Russian and Chinese spies are active in the city you also have Rowan and Kong Galee

[00:25:05] spies who apparently extremely active in the area and without a doubt MI6 would have been very active

[00:25:11] in Brussels during the Brexit negotiations and I think all EU members would have active espionage

[00:25:19] efforts going on in Brussels as well so it's a very crowded city it's probably a lot going on

[00:25:25] it's probably a bit like Vienna where it's very hard not to bump into an intelligence officer or

[00:25:30] an asset somewhere probably gets bit awkward sometimes it's about him is now trying to double down

[00:25:35] on his efforts by doubling its security staff and prioritizing counterintelligence over counter

[00:25:40] terrorism because like with elsewhere counterterrorism has been the priorities for some time

[00:25:46] it will be interesting to see now we've obviously the post October the 7th

[00:25:51] whether there will be a resurgence of Islamist extremism and terrorism and certainly they're still

[00:25:58] growing threats on the far right so we've got to be careful not to turn a blind eye to counterterrorism

[00:26:04] to then focus on counterintelligence and then also in Belgium it's very difficult to use the law

[00:26:14] to punish spies because you don't want to because when classified information has been stolen you

[00:26:20] don't want then that classified information to be read out in court as evidence so they are

[00:26:26] looking at ways to adjust the laws in Brussels to make it a little bit easier to arrest and charge

[00:26:34] people for espionage and then just on a final note in 2019 the head of Austria's domestic intelligence

[00:26:41] agency said that Brussels has now overtaken Vienna in terms of the sheer number of agents from the

[00:26:48] so-called intelligence services from outside the EU so yeah Brussels is the place to be could be a

[00:26:54] very good spy destination if you want to go for some spy tourism this year but just be careful not

[00:26:59] to act like a spy because you might get arrested so Matt over to you what are your thoughts on this?

[00:27:04] Yeah I mean Brussels is a target rich environment you consider all that's there

[00:27:11] um it's very interesting the point you made about um MI6 during the Brexit negotiations and stuff

[00:27:18] I'm sure there's a very interesting story there to be told oh I definitely believe so I remember

[00:27:25] talking to colder walls about that ages ago because we were briefly talk about um MI6 in the age of

[00:27:31] Brexit and obviously that would have been a massive priority and it'd be interesting as an MI6

[00:27:36] officer how you would feel about that because I know for myself I'd feel very conflict because I was

[00:27:41] very anxious and then my job was to spy on whoever to find out what they think yeah I honestly never

[00:27:48] thought of that until you just mentioned it in this segment and it's like well yeah that's an

[00:27:53] obvious that's an obvious target of course they're they're they're doing that um yeah anyway uh as

[00:28:01] far as like I mean this article is specifically about Belgium but I think this is true of

[00:28:06] many western countries I mean like it's sort of surprising how Belgium and others I mean and even

[00:28:15] the US is guilty of this to an extent has just completely dropped the ball here from a counterintelligence

[00:28:22] perspective and it's almost like willfully naive to the threats they face you know and I think that like

[00:28:28] just because we don't want to do the hard work of countering our adversaries does not mean that they

[00:28:33] won't do the hard work of countering us and this day and age to not have like the legal authorities

[00:28:40] to prosecute these espionage cases like why like why why are you just unilaterally just

[00:28:48] disarming just tying your hands behind your like why why why yeah you know a lot of the biggest

[00:28:54] intelligence targets in Belgium are these sub-national organizations right like NATO or or the EU um you

[00:29:02] know and that is certainly asking a lot of a small country like Belgium and their domestic security

[00:29:08] services to handle all of the intelligence threats facing you know the EU and NATO I don't know

[00:29:17] maybe that means that you know uh I know the EU has like um they're like what European external

[00:29:24] action service which is essentially they're like kind of inhale spy agency I think they mostly just

[00:29:29] do analysis not really operations as far as I know yeah yeah um I don't know maybe they need a

[00:29:37] they need to beef that up to handle a counter intelligence mission to protecting their

[00:29:43] their officers and their assets inside inside Brussels you know maybe NATO has an office of security

[00:29:50] that definitely does counter intelligence stuff I don't know how big or aggressive it is but

[00:29:56] um yeah maybe there needs to be some sort of uh an effort along these western alliances to

[00:30:02] increase their own counter intelligence efforts that are being targeted inside Belgium does that

[00:30:08] make sense yeah definitely it's sort of been an open secret like especially with NATO Russian spies

[00:30:15] managing to penetrate it and stuff it's almost got the point where um now we're in a situation

[00:30:21] like with Ukraine and how that could escalate it's in a situation now where um the idea of a conflict

[00:30:27] with Russia is less theoretical and more possible obviously we don't want to avoid it but the

[00:30:32] point of security is that your adversary doesn't know what your capabilities are uh and and because

[00:30:41] that in the end they know what you're going to do in advance then um your said enemy can counter it

[00:30:46] and obviously um Ukraine's intelligence successes have probably um uh you know helped Ukraine they've

[00:30:54] certainly prolonged the so-called three-day war because Russia thought what initially this is going

[00:30:57] to be a cake run or cake walk um and and they were going to be able to get into Kiev within a couple

[00:31:05] of days you know those paratroopers yeah they're they're airborne troops on that like that first

[00:31:11] sort of push towards Kiev they packed their dress uniforms for a parade through Kiev they totally

[00:31:17] thought that they're just gonna map up yeah and to be fair it kind of felt it was gonna go that way

[00:31:22] I know that weekend when it all kicked off and I thought I think Ukraine's done for uh and I was um

[00:31:29] very yeah I thought it was just going to be an insurgency for years yeah and I would say

[00:31:34] it's the wrong way to put it but I'll say I was pleasantly surprised it didn't go that way

[00:31:37] I can't think of a better way to put that but yeah but I'm glad it didn't go that way

[00:31:41] I'm glad Ukraine have fought back I'm just sorry the in a way um at the moment we're you know

[00:31:47] uh the west is slightly letting them down and could have done more to because every day it carries on

[00:31:53] more and more Ukrainians are dying um that's the reality of it isn't it so that's the nasty side of all

[00:31:58] this um yeah well um I've got a few more points as good a thought about uh Brussels but is

[00:32:04] there anything else you also had about Brussels right no let's uh let's let's let's let's hear what

[00:32:08] you got wow so when googling spies in Brussels um you'll realize quite quickly that this is not

[00:32:15] particularly new and um one thing that made me chuckle military dot com named Brussels the den of

[00:32:22] spies that did make me chuckle a little bit um so obviously this has been an ongoing problem um

[00:32:29] and uh you know Belgium and now trying to step up and deal with it but um there was a particular

[00:32:35] so I want to give you a restaurant recommendation now Matt you may have been to this restaurant

[00:32:40] but is a particular restaurant now apparently was a hotbed of espionage the owner was surprised

[00:32:45] and shocked by this and has denied this um so obviously uh he's not 100% proven that there are

[00:32:53] spies that go in here but the restaurant was alluded to in an alert that was issued by

[00:32:59] the EU to diplomats to say to avoid the steakhouse that was within walking distance of the EU

[00:33:05] headquarters and according to the owner the only steakhouse in walking distance was his steakhouse

[00:33:10] which is called meat meat steak and winehouse so I had a look of trip advisor about this place

[00:33:17] I thought okay I want to check this out it has a 4.5 style rating on TripAdvisor um and it

[00:33:23] offers a pretty obviously awesome good looking food the place itself looks quite small and

[00:33:26] there's one review in 2022 that complained that they had a noisy lunch that was tightly packed

[00:33:32] which may make it tricky for covert conversations or that might go in your favor I don't know because

[00:33:38] if it's so loud maybe nobody can hear you and obviously if people in close proximity you can kind of

[00:33:42] recognize if the uh I don't know the spy from China is trying to eavesdrop on your conversation as

[00:33:48] a spy from Russia or if I was the MI6 officer trying to find out the the latest information about

[00:33:54] Brexit you know if we all recognize each other then we kind of can't spy on each other can we

[00:33:59] yeah now apparently the food is great um so uh in January 2024 somebody put definitely don't miss it

[00:34:05] and another said good Argentine meat so if you're into your steak I think going to meat meat steak

[00:34:12] and winehouse is probably worth a checkout um and for all you know you may or may not bump into

[00:34:19] some spies whilst you're there just don't accept tea from strangers whilst you're there um so

[00:34:26] there we go recommendation general rule of thumb maybe I don't know maybe when you're overseas is

[00:34:33] just uh don't don't take any tea that that you didn't make yourself yeah I don't know

[00:34:41] I think that's a very wise thing yeah definitely don't drink um yeah it's we wonder

[00:34:47] a whole lip and the Enco one that was a very strange um thing because he was given supposedly

[00:34:52] tepid coltie that looked old it's like it was very weird and it was a bit of a weird manna's

[00:34:57] honour thing that came into play that he didn't drink the tea he'd be being rude to his um host but

[00:35:04] obviously by drinking the tea he killed himself um it's a very interesting weird dynamic there where

[00:35:09] manna's come into play and can go against you but there we go yes yes be careful yeah well let's

[00:35:16] take a quick break and then we'll be right back

[00:35:28] um

[00:35:36] moving on from uh from Belgium and from Brussels we are going to look at a piece that you picked out

[00:35:42] about Russia setting up fake news sites in the US which is a very interesting one that one yeah

[00:35:48] that you're in there um so this is an article from the New York Times it's called State of Mark

[00:35:53] News sites with Russian ties pop up in the US and we have a story that we're going to cover in

[00:35:59] extra shot that's kind of similar to this more specific example of it yeah so make sure you tune

[00:36:06] into extra show yes recent emergence of fake news websites in the US with names resembling

[00:36:12] local news outlets is attributed to Russian origins aiming to disseminate Kremlin propaganda amidst

[00:36:17] genuine news these sites like DC Weekly New York news daily Chicago Chronicle and the Miami

[00:36:24] Chronicle mimic authentic news organizations to push false narratives exploiting gaps in American

[00:36:30] journalism advancements in technology including artificial intelligence facilitate the creation

[00:36:36] of targeted content making it easier for Russian actors to manipulate unsuspecting readers

[00:36:42] the campaign resembles previous efforts linked to you have getting pregozians media empire

[00:36:47] r.i.p suggesting a continuation of the Kremlin's information battles despite pregozians death

[00:36:53] Clemson University researchers exposed Russian connections behind these websites revealing

[00:36:57] a pattern of laundering false claims through lesser known news outlets um they've done this

[00:37:03] I mean they usually do this in like sub zaharan africa with stories about the US crisis then it gets

[00:37:07] like laundered its way up to like the New York Times or something um articles from these sites

[00:37:13] often contain fabricated content lifted from real news sources or Russian state media to lend an

[00:37:19] air of credibility and propagate disinformation the spread of false narratives extends to social media

[00:37:24] platforms like x formally twitter facebook telegram reddit gab and true social amplifying the

[00:37:30] reach of the disinformation campaign the ultimate goal of these fake news sites is to influence public

[00:37:35] opinion particularly in the context of the upcoming american presidential election by exploiting

[00:37:40] vulnerabilities in the media landscape Chris what you think about this yeah very interesting piece

[00:37:46] could have touched on a lot of familiar themes this podcast um so again good reminder to be careful

[00:37:53] in what you read and share online people definitely have to use their due diligence for content

[00:37:59] online it's always a good idea to google the author of the piece or the organization it comes from

[00:38:05] always look at what the author of publication have posted before do these things line up with um

[00:38:10] or go against sort of established knowledge or things that you accept to be true and if they do

[00:38:16] challenge that then proceed with extreme caution so please don't blindly read or share anything

[00:38:21] um especially sadly in this day and age especially if you get an emotional reaction from the

[00:38:26] piece that you're reading um yeah i was just saying like also if you've if you haven't heard of

[00:38:35] the outlet before you know the site the newspaper if it's something that you've never heard of

[00:38:39] before you know take that as something you know yeah like trust your doubt um definitely because

[00:38:47] you've got instincts use them you know it's definitely the and don't doubt something just because

[00:38:52] it makes you feel uncomfortable or would mean that you were wrong about something that you believed

[00:38:58] that's not a reason for doubt yeah there's good doubt and unhealthy doubt isn't it or healthy

[00:39:03] skepticism and unhealthy skepticism and i used to be skeptical of some people skepticism get your head

[00:39:09] round that one so um you've got to be a bit careful uh and especially when dealing with spiced

[00:39:16] up and things like that is very hard sometimes to determine what's um right wrong or whatever um

[00:39:22] and one other interesting thing as well and so you mentioned in the article about how these outlets

[00:39:28] have logos and named evoker by gone ear of american journalism and it's quite interesting because

[00:39:35] for years conspiracy theorists and the alt-right have been attacking legacy media especially um

[00:39:41] the us press and all the traditional media yeah and all traditional media is kind of gone through

[00:39:46] these shifts in the in the last 20 years we have declining readership numbers and things like that

[00:39:51] and so um it's become very interest as or has become very popular to attack this sort of modern

[00:39:57] corporate media and in hark back to this kind of um past time when people were using type

[00:40:05] writers and working in the daily planet or something you know um and so it was interesting that

[00:40:10] they've apparently have gone down this road to make these old logos well i think it's crossed my

[00:40:15] mind though was it's a bit they've been a bit lazy because apparently they've used this wordpress

[00:40:19] software and all these sites look the same it's bizarre that they've done that and and so that

[00:40:26] to me would instantly come across as a bit hinky of like there were three totally different newspapers

[00:40:32] unless they openly claimed to be owned by the same people but they don't do they're going to

[00:40:36] present themselves completely new and they've got names their names also sound a bit like

[00:40:42] already established papers like i think of the Miami Harold which is an actual paper and the other

[00:40:47] one was it called the Miami um the Miami Chronicle the Miami Chronicle that's it there's also here

[00:40:53] the Chicago Chronicle which this article says was a real newspaper that went out of business in

[00:40:58] their early 20th century oh sneaky sneaky say kind of stealing old brands there so there we are

[00:41:06] so no very interesting piece and I think again more cause for concern for the upcoming US elections

[00:41:13] yeah and the British ones too yeah i think the biggest problem here is Americans are very easy

[00:41:21] to deceive but very difficult to convince them that they've been deceived um a lot of this is just

[00:41:31] which is tough because I don't think this advice really is going to apply to many people listening

[00:41:37] to this like i feel like if you're here already like you're you kind of got the right idea you know

[00:41:42] um but i don't know so much of this is just personal responsibility you know like it's critical thinking

[00:41:49] uh skills media literacy you know like i said and the previous you know like the i don't trust the mainstream media

[00:41:58] i do my own research that's code for you're gonna google around until you find something that just

[00:42:02] says what you want to believe regardless of whether or not it stands up to any scrutiny whatsoever

[00:42:09] you know um and i think i think for most and this is like i get

[00:42:14] on twitter i often get spun up about the way some stories are are covered or the way a headline

[00:42:22] frames something especially and the reason for that is for most people that are just on

[00:42:28] Facebook on social media right just casually through scrolling through the headlines are the news

[00:42:34] you know so like i don't care if your second or third paragraph like so artfully explains like

[00:42:40] the nuance and the facts here no one's reading that shit you know it happens very frequently doesn't

[00:42:46] i remember during the stodon coverage there'd be some really inflammatory bold claim and then by about

[00:42:54] the seventh paragraph you would find out that it was just based on a uh slideshow about a potential

[00:43:01] theoretical operation or new software that didn't even exist at this point yeah yeah um but by

[00:43:08] then everybody's had the hissy fit throwing their toys out the prime right nobody cares anymore or

[00:43:12] they're have their idea of what feels true to them you know like what are what are what are the vibes

[00:43:21] around this issue you know and that that absolutely influences public opinion i mean another issue

[00:43:27] here that you've had come online in the last you know year two that wasn't an issue in 2016 or

[00:43:31] even in 2020 um AI enables this kind of disinformation to be produced at scale with a relatively small

[00:43:38] and cheap workforce you know like what do you think is is cheaper for Putin to create some of

[00:43:46] this astroturf disinformation BS with the help of AI to you know persuade uh fewer people that

[00:43:57] attend to Taylor Swift concert spread across a couple states in the Midwest to vote a certain way

[00:44:03] and then you've won the war in Ukraine yeah totally totally i mean it's funny actually i had a

[00:44:08] note i didn't read out but you know this i put so this is why uh russia and china used disinformation

[00:44:13] it's the cheapest way to win a war you know because everybody's fighting each other which in many ways

[00:44:19] american and to some extent british to society we are all fighting each other over something

[00:44:23] at the moment and generally most of that has come from various things that were pissed off about

[00:44:29] being expressed on the internet and frequently i breathe stuff in the internet and i leave my house

[00:44:36] a little bit on edge and find by dealing by going out into the real world and dealing with real

[00:44:42] human beings for a few hours that i feel a lot less on edge by the end of that experience than i do

[00:44:48] before i leave that house and it just i think it's just showing what the social media is doing to us

[00:44:54] another thing there if there's a media personality or an outlet that you listen to read consume in

[00:45:02] any way that consistently makes you anxious upset nervous angry even if it's stuff that even if

[00:45:10] it's saying stuff that you agree with you know but if it just so enrages you be skeptical of that

[00:45:16] be suspicious of that you know like that should not that's not that's not normal that's not healthy

[00:45:21] any emotional reaction is definitely worth noting the frequency and where it's come from you know

[00:45:29] because it's our emotions that can bypass sense and that's that that's not to say that if you have

[00:45:35] an emotional reaction something in the news that that's bad that's not what i'm saying but if there

[00:45:39] is someone or something that you listen to consistently that every single time you do you feel a little

[00:45:45] bit worse about yourself and about the world even if what they're saying is something you agree

[00:45:51] with or you want to be true yeah that's not that's not good well good example would be something like

[00:45:55] Alex Jones who frequently is just screeching about you luminos you're going to do this that

[00:46:01] the other turning frogs gay the well see talk about so sorts of weird shit that he comes up with

[00:46:08] everyone everyone i don't like as a pedophile yeah yeah he's always challenging always episodes

[00:46:15] sometimes starts come by the end of the way you know it's got this sort of and that's not healthy

[00:46:19] for him and it's not healthy for anybody listening to it and it definitely it's just definitely not

[00:46:27] rational now there are people out there who do avoid the news because it makes them feel bad

[00:46:32] I think there's a danger as well where if you avoid the act you know if you avoid legacy news whatever

[00:46:38] like if you avoid the BBC or just refuse to watch the news then there's a danger become misinformed

[00:46:43] and then that could also make you susceptible to nonsense too you may I think in that case

[00:46:48] a such a person may think they're avoiding the news but I would bet in a way they're not I bet it

[00:46:54] filters through in social media through conversations through podcasts do through other means

[00:47:00] and the stuff that filters through is probably this kind of manufacture disinformation shit totally

[00:47:06] you may not seek it out but it'll it'll find you because people want to ensure that it finds you

[00:47:11] yeah so it's the alt rights space so I have one or two friends god bless them who do avoid the news

[00:47:16] because it makes them feel bad but then they're frequently once in a while they will quote

[00:47:23] something from maybe Joe Rogan or something and I'm like yeah that's not good and then I try my

[00:47:30] very best to delicately talk about why whatever the particular point was probably doesn't stack up

[00:47:36] it's an inability also I think or an unwillingness to recognize

[00:47:43] even that even because something doesn't present itself as political doesn't mean it's not political

[00:47:47] yeah you know what I mean like I think about like people who were saying that like the last Tom Cruise

[00:47:52] the last top gun movie they were like oh I loved it because they kept politics out of it and like

[00:47:57] what do you mean like that top gun maverick is one of the most intensely political movies

[00:48:02] of the 21st century it's just in service of an ideology you agree with and find and and and

[00:48:10] presented in a in an nostalgic way that you find comforting and I mean I'm right there with you

[00:48:15] I like the movie it's in service of an ideology that I agree with I thought it was cool but it's

[00:48:20] still political like the navy had recruiters and outside the theaters when the first one came out

[00:48:24] like it is absolutely a political movie you know but just because it doesn't

[00:48:29] it doesn't upset you it doesn't enrage you it doesn't mean that it's not pushing pushing a message

[00:48:37] what is it yeah a lot of people bang on about the woke hates use the word woke now just so tired

[00:48:45] of that word but the the woke agenda in films the thing is like a lot of movies are pushing

[00:48:51] agendas of some sort or another where whether you're aware of it or not and usually I think maybe

[00:48:56] in the past writing was a touch subtler so you weren't always as aware of it as you are now so

[00:49:02] like Star Trek's a good example I think Star Trek the early years is a very liberal show it always

[00:49:07] has been and some of the writing I felt was a lot smarter in the way it brought liberal messaging

[00:49:14] across the maybe in some of the more recent shows where it's really in your face now and it's

[00:49:21] quite interesting now and it's yeah yeah well look at like look at like the original Star Wars

[00:49:26] trilogy it's it's straight up the Vietnam War like the Ewoks are the Viet Cong like Lucas Lucas

[00:49:32] literally said as much yeah yeah you know so it's it's everywhere just because you think you're

[00:49:38] sitting down and you know going into your happy little space where there is nothing that'll that it's

[00:49:42] it's there yeah why be racing classes where um because I'm trying to do stuff that's not so

[00:49:49] mask because I'm interested in espionage so I'm trying to do contemporary espionage thrillers and

[00:49:54] dramas a bit like the kind of yeah the Tom Clancy movies are the 90s or what have you I like that

[00:49:59] kind of stuff like you do and when I've been in a few writing classes I've had the odd teacher

[00:50:05] so I did a course on using how using AI as a writing assistant last year okay and AI

[00:50:14] views chat gtp as these terms of services that come up should you bring up certain scenarios so

[00:50:21] I was throwing in some like story about MI6 operative undercover in our chaiad and blah blah blah

[00:50:29] and then when I asked chat gtp to help me cut off a character biog whatever it just stopped and said

[00:50:36] you violated our terms and blah blah blah and you can't proceed any further so my tutor then

[00:50:41] said well Chris said it in space changed the name so like our chaiad is now like the Martian

[00:50:47] faction and the MI6 officer is like the Jupiter faction or something like that and after he said

[00:50:53] that he then said but really you want to write sci-fi because sci-fi is where you can talk about

[00:51:00] the real world and it was like and I get what he's saying and yes good sci-fi does talk about the

[00:51:06] real world but at the same time especially I suppose if you write stuff that you think

[00:51:14] is about something in particular I feel like sometimes people do miss the point of things

[00:51:18] and so sometimes you have to be a bit more direct about it and I just I don't know what it was

[00:51:23] it but it got my backup a little bit that comment about you probably want to write sci-fi

[00:51:27] I don't I love sci-fi but I don't want to have to be forced to write it if I don't want to

[00:51:32] is that make sense I don't know this on topic anymore but yeah it should know I

[00:51:37] I get it and nothing like after after a couple whiskeys nothing is more guaranteed to send me off

[00:51:44] into a rage than the topic of like people who don't like when spine novels get political like

[00:51:51] I will I will throw stuff across the room if I hear that like what do you think all of this is for

[00:51:59] what we get comments about this oh god forbid your podcast is political what we're dealing with

[00:52:04] espionage it is political nation states doing what politics so it always cracks me up occasionally

[00:52:12] we get the like the one star of you great doing what political uh the whole concept of the whole

[00:52:17] concept of one nation state yeah that is in this imaginary part of the map and on that side of

[00:52:24] the line is another nation state that controls that side of the map that's fucking politics yeah

[00:52:31] so I think people need to uh yeah have a bit of an education about what is and what politics actually

[00:52:37] is and and that's that's okay that's how that's how like in the in the Tom Cruise top gun movies you

[00:52:43] know you just get like generic bad guys with the in the cockpit or the fighter pilot with the visor

[00:52:49] down and you can't see their skin color anything they're just they're just bad guys don't ask questions

[00:52:54] that was the only thing I didn't like about top gun maverick was what they called the end

[00:52:59] well it just called the enemy I caught what they called the enemy yeah the enemy and it's just such

[00:53:03] to me it was such nonsense that bit but the rest it was great um and did you know I don't

[00:53:07] know this um the airstrike it was that they used as the model for the film was the Israeli

[00:53:16] airstrike against an a an Iraqi nuclear facility yes yes because Jerry Brockheim has been

[00:53:22] wanted to make a film about yeah um apparently god what was the name of that I don't know was it

[00:53:30] there was a nuclear I was in a new there was like a big there was like a huge artillery gun

[00:53:36] huge artillery gun that the Iraqis were building back in the back before the goal for

[00:53:40] supercut yes that was gonna be big enough to i think it's got a rest of the

[00:53:45] yeah that was gonna be big enough to like shell to like shell Tel Aviv and I think they they blew that

[00:53:51] yeah yeah yeah yeah so there we go we got a went off topic the stayed on topic somehow as well

[00:53:59] so yeah we can see how it's like this is a very good piece map so thank you for pulling that out

[00:54:03] now yeah I would pay attention to this um where uh this is only the beginning of this we're

[00:54:10] gonna before November there's gonna be there's gonna be so much shit I think I think the most

[00:54:16] important thing to do is to talk about it again like with the Russians with the nukes name and shame

[00:54:23] talk about it often talk about it loudly let people know what like what these outlets are

[00:54:30] you know um these these disinformation efforts they thrive in darkness um the more you talk

[00:54:38] about them the longer you talk about them the more people are aware of them the less effective

[00:54:42] they are like I said it's very easy to deceive Americans it's very hard to convince them that

[00:54:46] they've been deceived yeah yeah indeed and that's on both sides of the spectrum believe not because

[00:54:51] there's a lot of stuff in the far left face there's a lot of stuff in the far left space it's

[00:54:55] completely bullshit though yeah people frequently um use to form opinions and it always and

[00:55:04] and and i'm always the reason why i always bang that left is you know i did advice center left

[00:55:08] so i'm more aware of what's going on the left and i'm sometimes the right um at all at least with

[00:55:13] the spaces i don't hang out in right wing spaces but i do keep an iron left wing one and i'm always

[00:55:19] amazed when having conversations with friends who are quite left wing who come out with some like

[00:55:24] the the um russian to really you know dealing with neo-nazi's nonsense that that is a very popular

[00:55:31] idea it was a very popular idea on the far left especially in 2014 um and it came from all sorts

[00:55:36] of weird spaces from open democracy is it open democracy open democracy there was a nonsense

[00:55:42] website called neo-nessle there's no one called navaa media there's a very far left kind of um

[00:55:49] website that yeah sometimes publishes a very good stuff but most of the time it's publishing some

[00:55:53] very sketchy things um usually of a slightly russian disinfo persuasion um and it and those are

[00:56:00] sort of websites where things then do eak into the mainstream um and then legacy the other problem is

[00:56:06] legacy media is now trying to stay relevant and the danger is it then looks to what people talk

[00:56:11] about online to stay relevant and that's where the in the overton window can change because if

[00:56:16] it's only the entire population believe low nonsense then the news media is going to have to kind

[00:56:21] of shift over to kind of keep up with said population because that's your audience

[00:56:26] and so their nonsense becomes reality so yeah there was a lot of philosophy written about that's

[00:56:32] what happened with one one side then yeah indeed well talk about things the art political but art

[00:56:41] political let's go to Antarctica so things that shouldn't be political but are for 400 now yes

[00:56:50] so um i'll start with there's there's a really good piece in axios about Antarctica and uh

[00:56:57] and about how it's getting more political so uh i will i'll just talk a bit about that so

[00:57:03] and there's a myth that Antarctica is isolated from politics but politics is just done through science

[00:57:09] says science historian Peter Roberts of the University of stavenger in Norway and um so scientific

[00:57:17] research has for decades guided the governance of Antarctica offering access to scientific

[00:57:22] frontiers and a say in the course of the continent but as countries grow their presence on Antarctica

[00:57:28] a wide range of politics and goals is intersecting with polar science China's establishment of a fifth

[00:57:34] research center in Antarctica is a good example or good recent example of that the station's location

[00:57:41] is to the south of australia and its raised concerns um among some analysts that it could be used

[00:57:48] for intelligence gathering on us allies interestingly as well Iran has recently claimed it has property

[00:57:55] rights in the south pole and plans to carry out military and scientific work on the continent so

[00:58:00] there's a new one there and scientific expeditions have found valuable minerals in Antarctica such as

[00:58:06] copper gold uranium and zinc and Antarctica is still the only continent on earth where no mining has

[00:58:13] taken place and this is partly due to the extreme weather and ice that covers the surface

[00:58:18] and with climate change that could change and there is a possibility that countries may start

[00:58:22] to look at mining options the Antarctic treaty which prioritises scientific research and cooperation

[00:58:29] is increasingly intersecting with broader political goals and the potential impact won't be just

[00:58:36] felt on an environmental level so Matt I don't know if you have any thoughts about Antarctica and it's

[00:58:41] kind of what's kind of developing there my first thought after reading this was how like I guess

[00:58:48] it's a shame that like great power ambitions great against like the uh this is un-unself-interested

[00:58:58] I'll say desire for like scientific research and exploration that benefits just all of humanity

[00:59:03] like it's not for like this country it's just for like everybody right then I think like

[00:59:10] then again you know what was the space race what ultimately brought about the moon landing

[00:59:16] it was all competition with the Soviets and about like developing dual-use technologies that could

[00:59:20] be used for ICBMs you know so yeah and away maybe that's just how it's always been

[00:59:26] you know and we're just now like in a way our current moment is no different like we're just

[00:59:32] entering a period where other new and different nations are able to compete in this sphere and

[00:59:40] they're going to take advantage of that you know maybe that's just the realist in me talking I don't

[00:59:44] know yeah I think you're very much right so I mean one so there was a podcast I did a few years ago

[00:59:49] called spies of the deep with William Craig Reed and he pointed out that the US is sort of falling

[00:59:56] behind in its Arctic and Antarctic capabilities in comparison to Russia and China

[01:00:02] in particular the Arctic came up a lot in that conversation and he believed that with global warming

[01:00:10] and ice melting that there will be new kind of shipping routes that will come out

[01:00:15] and those shipping routes obviously be more economical to use but Russia will be in a

[01:00:20] position to kind of enforce who can and can't use those shipping routes. It smells like the northern

[01:00:25] passages right. Something like that yeah yeah it's still not quite in my area I need to do a bit more

[01:00:29] homework on all this but I brought it up because I thought that the Arctic and Antarctic is something

[01:00:34] to be looking at because it's definitely the area that's used a pardoning bad analogy heating up

[01:00:41] a bit at the moment in the world not because of global warming particularly but more because of all

[01:00:45] the political things going on. Well in many ways that's because of global warming like you look at

[01:00:51] this northern passages through through through the Arctic this isn't Antarctica but if you look up

[01:00:55] north those pat those it's it's sea lanes that one could get from Europe or North America or the

[01:01:02] Middle East and maybe not so much the Middle East but from like Europe through to China by going up

[01:01:10] like north along Russia's northern coast yeah and back down to China because of global warming

[01:01:16] those sea lanes aren't frozen over a year round or are even open or could be open through ice

[01:01:22] breakers and stuff all year yeah yeah so with we didn't create read he was concerned that if America

[01:01:31] don't get their act together of this the America could kind of in a sense miss out on some of this

[01:01:36] and could end up being beholden on Russian permissions and stuff like that. Yeah Canada has a

[01:01:41] role to play your two. Oh yeah yeah definitely they probably and I need to look in I'm sure Canada

[01:01:46] probably do have a capability here but there was an interesting other ask with Forbes they points that

[01:01:51] out at Sweden and Finland of joint NATO that maybe it's time for a polar orcus involving Sweden

[01:01:58] and Finland because they got capabilities with all this that are much better than what America

[01:02:02] have at the moment so yeah it's their corner of the world. Yeah so I think there's definitely something

[01:02:07] this is definitely an area to keep an eye on that's why I wanted to bring it up today I'm not a massive

[01:02:12] expert in this area but I did want to just bring it up just purely for that so so I've got one more

[01:02:18] piece for Spratomartini and we'll move over to extra shots so this last piece here is from the Nordic

[01:02:25] Monitor and it's about how Turkey is reportedly escalating its covert intelligence activities

[01:02:32] in Europe North America so I'll just do my best to summarize some of this so an eight page

[01:02:37] document attained by the Nordic Monitor reveals extensive details about a large scale spying operation

[01:02:44] conducted by the Turkish National Intelligence Organization known as MIT on behalf of the Turkish

[01:02:51] government. Turkish intelligence operations run out of consulates in the West notably in Europe and

[01:02:57] North America and have intensified targeting critics and opponents of President Erdogan

[01:03:05] and these operations include surveillance, information gathering and mapping out of daily routines

[01:03:11] of targets with the potential for further aggressive actions. Classified documents reveal extensive

[01:03:18] spying efforts involving multiple Turkish intelligence services across numerous foreign countries.

[01:03:23] The document listed 82 unsuspecting individuals as targets so that implies that thousands of

[01:03:30] people have actually been profiled for it to get to that 82. President Erdogan has been increasingly

[01:03:36] dependent on intelligence services to maintain his repressive regime in Turkey and he suppresses

[01:03:42] critical voices and has cracked down on opposition groups. The increased surveillance and intelligence

[01:03:48] activities abroad aimed at intimidating opponents overseas perpetuating a climate of fear among

[01:03:54] Turkish diaspora groups and influencing the foreign and domestic policies of host countries

[01:04:01] and then just to finish up the surveillance activities of the race concerns of potential escalation

[01:04:05] including violence and kidnapping echoing previous attempts implicating Turkish intelligence in

[01:04:12] Europe and the US. And despite measures taken by European nations against Turkish operations,

[01:04:17] the Erdogan government persists in its covert operations to deploy more spies abroad often under

[01:04:22] diplomatic cover together intelligence so Matt I don't know if you have any thoughts on all that.

[01:04:27] In many ways Turkey has been like the ultimate frenemy for a while. I mean they're a NATO ally

[01:04:34] they're a nominally Western country. I mean that's always should have been they've had one foot

[01:04:41] in both worlds since since Attiturk and they kind of historically at least have wanted it that way

[01:04:50] part of Erdogan's sort of philosophy if you can call that is just like neo-autominism right which

[01:04:57] is believed that Turkey should shift away from the Western world and be more of the leading governing

[01:05:05] force in the Middle East the way it was during the Ottoman Empire. In some ways if there's

[01:05:14] stability and order that can be brought to the region through that if I'd rather the Middle East

[01:05:21] beat if the Middle East must be dominated by someone I'd rather it be Turkey than Iran.

[01:05:27] You know I don't know there's a complicated feelings there but Erdogan has decided since that coup

[01:05:36] in 2016 that failed coup attempt he sort of decided that it's in his domestic political interest to

[01:05:44] situate the country somewhat against NATO and the West or at least to like be a thorn in the side

[01:05:54] you know like he's still on the team but it's sort of like sometimes it's like you know with

[01:05:59] friends like these who needs enemies I don't know they have played they they have played an important

[01:06:05] role like they've played especially in the early days of the war in Ukraine Turkey played a very

[01:06:11] important role as a mediator you know and it's good and I think they've restricted naval Russian

[01:06:18] access to the region haven't they? Yeah through the boss first but yeah he's decided that it's

[01:06:23] sort of in his interest to to to orient Turkey somewhat against that or to at least sort of play

[01:06:31] two sides much in the same way that Saudi Arabia under Muhammad bin Salman has been doing you know

[01:06:36] where there's still there's still on our side you know there's still there even now you know

[01:06:43] the Saudis are seeking a somewhat formal treaty alliance with the United States I find pretty

[01:06:48] surprising where it's in the same point talking about buying all kinds of arms with China and having

[01:06:56] closer diplomatic ties with with China I think that's just a lot of these middle powers kind

[01:07:01] of hedging their bets you know because which way the US is going to go is kind of still up in the

[01:07:08] air unfortunately it's like you have the French saying you know we need to have positive economic

[01:07:12] relations with China you know they're they're hedging their bets for whichever way this goes and

[01:07:18] in a way yeah that's that's understandable I think in a sense Turkey is probably doing that also

[01:07:23] the other thing here is allies spy on each other all the time I mean the US spies on

[01:07:31] everybody except five eyes countries you know like you guys australia candidate you're the only ones

[01:07:38] we're not we're not spying against as far as like in return my my six buying on the EU during

[01:07:45] the Brexit negotiations like we got the US gotten has gotten in trouble a couple times now for

[01:07:50] spying on the Germans you know tapping on the Merkel cell phone and like yeah I would be spying

[01:07:55] on the Germans at the moment yeah and that's not it's not like you know it's not something you want

[01:08:00] it's not something you want you know spelled out in like their speagle you know that's not good

[01:08:07] to have it's embarrassing you know it's awkward but what those those operations they're not

[01:08:15] they're not meant to harm Germany you know they're not meant to to steal their

[01:08:23] industrial property you know to get a leg up on them on scientific capabilities we just want

[01:08:28] to know what they're talking about amongst themselves when they close the door yeah you know that's it

[01:08:33] yeah definitely and I think in many ways part of this what Turkey's doing it's it's it's that

[01:08:40] it's being more aggressive and assertive with those with those intelligence efforts a lot of it is

[01:08:47] you know when it's about Fatilogalin who's that dissident who lives in little town up in the

[01:08:53] Poconos a Pennsylvania called Broadhead Broadhead's Phil oh yes yes yeah yeah they just want to

[01:09:00] they just want to keep an eye on and crush dissidents overseas you know much in the same way that

[01:09:04] the that the Chinese do as you've said Turkey spying abroad is hardly a shock but it is concerning

[01:09:11] when those spies are profiling Turkish nationals abroad and then looking you know looking to

[01:09:17] gather information that could lead to sanctions legal trouble and possible harassment of family

[01:09:23] or worse could lead to their murder because there was a murder in London in 1994 with a Turkish

[01:09:29] trade unionist who had links to the PKK and he was living in London and on that fateful day he

[01:09:35] was playing backgammon in a cafe locust in Newington green he was shot in the back of the head

[01:09:41] and he was shot by a Turkish national who was a sort of known gangster operating in London who

[01:09:49] was sort of hired by MIT to carry out the assassination so there was a bit of a cutout there

[01:09:55] and then also more recently MIT have been connected to murders of PKK members in Paris

[01:10:04] and obviously in Turkey and Syria and other places so yeah they are you know bit like the Russians

[01:10:12] using lethal operations against some of the enemies abroad and I don't think that's good or healthy

[01:10:19] yes okay you could argue when they're just targeting Turkish people with Russia as one format MI6

[01:10:26] head once said that Russia is just targeting Russians so generally it doesn't affect other people

[01:10:32] but it does it does affect things so yeah it's not good yeah well there was the scheme with

[01:10:41] the Michael and his article talks about this a bit the Michael Flynn was involved in during

[01:10:45] the like two seconds that he was Trump's national security adviser that Turkey wanted

[01:10:52] Fatulah Golin back because he's a dissident and criticizing Erdogan and they don't like that

[01:11:00] and the Justice Department basically said like no because he's not like it's not against U.S.

[01:11:08] law to criticize the Turkish president you know so like we can't just throw a black bag over his

[01:11:14] head and disappear him back to you like he has to commit a crime we see as a crime and just

[01:11:19] criticizing yeah criticizing Erdogan was not a crime and and you know did the contrary Mike Flynn

[01:11:25] was like okay we'll throw a black bag over his head and just disappear him for you that plan never

[01:11:30] came to fruition and that's something else that like he's never been charged for that I've never

[01:11:36] heard of like anything coming of that and this like you hear then it's like how are you

[01:11:44] not charged for that I don't I don't know yeah my speculative thoughts on that so associates

[01:11:50] of his were charged because I looked into this too and I couldn't find a definitive answer

[01:11:54] what how it concluded um and obviously it was through the through the muller investigation that

[01:12:01] brought this up so I wonder if this was put on the table that led to his deal that led to him

[01:12:09] testifying and so it kind of disappeared I could be wrong but because legally speaking Flynn

[01:12:17] was not guilty of this but his associates have been found guilty and it's a bit sketchy

[01:12:26] but what's also weird as well is Flynn it's also quite anti-earth one from what I've seen because

[01:12:31] he was charged as being a foreign agent for Turkey but for the opposition of Turkey that's weird

[01:12:37] so it is weird so I find it's all bit murky Mike Flynn's relationship with Turkey but it was all

[01:12:43] round about 2017 this all kind of was reported yeah there's a lot that that's murky about

[01:12:48] Mike Flynn I think he's one of those dangerous people in the country yeah and we have not taken

[01:12:54] a serious enough stance against him no it's a bit of an interesting one quick note why would I

[01:13:00] spy on Germany so the areas I said I'd spy on Germany not to offend any German listeners but

[01:13:04] I would be very interested in the Russian penetration of Germany at the moment I think there's

[01:13:09] a lot of evidence to say that the Russians are collecting members people who have far-right

[01:13:15] legences in Germany and obviously there's been some arrests over the last year connected to

[01:13:20] members of the BND who may have had far-right leanings and also the traditional sort of left in

[01:13:27] Germany seem to also be very pro-Russia so I think there definitely is evidence of Russian agents

[01:13:33] working quite heavily in Germany to try and persuade the German public to become more anti-NATO

[01:13:39] and less pro-Ecranians that's why I would spy on the Germans I want to echo that point there

[01:13:45] to what you're saying it's not these efforts to spy on allies even close allies it's not done to

[01:13:53] harm the ally it's like we want to know what you're talking about behind closed doors when we're

[01:14:00] not there basically it's it's being nosy you know and are you know citizens of that country

[01:14:08] right to be uncomfortable or upset about it totally you know totally get it country spy on each other

[01:14:14] it's their job to to try and stop it that said I'm sure there are many Western European countries

[01:14:22] that are spying on the US's domestic political situation trying to get intelligence of what's

[01:14:29] going on behind the scenes and if they're not they should be no definitely I think you know

[01:14:35] I think Britain certainly must be up to something on that front but yeah I would definitely

[01:14:41] be spying on America myself if I was ahead of my six we're like right we need to know what's going

[01:14:45] on you know especially in the Trump campaign and all that what's going on there how is he being

[01:14:52] real when he says he's gonna um you know let Russia invade certain NATO countries etc or is that

[01:14:59] just sort of bravado you know and and MI6 would be doing that if they are doing it which the

[01:15:09] legality of I don't know MI6 might be tough for them to actually do that I don't know they put

[01:15:14] these a cut yeah let's say for the sake of conversation that they are MI6 would be doing that

[01:15:19] because they want the US to remain a liberal democracy small d democracy and a productive leader of

[01:15:30] the Western world the same reason that you gave your example of why you would want to spy on Germany

[01:15:36] in their you know efforts for to combat Russian penetration in the far right because you want

[01:15:41] Germany to remain a healthy liberal democracy and productive leader of the rest of the world that's

[01:15:46] why yeah yeah indeed that's why you should spy on your friends once in a while but yeah

[01:15:51] everyone does it don't tell me you don't

[01:15:55] well we all keep an eye on K somebody's got a bit uh yeah actually Facebook

[01:15:59] quote for that where friends post something and you think that seems a bit odd or you wouldn't

[01:16:04] call another friend and be like did you see what so and so just posted you're something about

[01:16:07] that what's that's what it is we're just using satellites and tapping people's cell phones to do it

[01:16:11] yeah yeah indeed well on that note i think we will move over to extra shots so thank you Matt

[01:16:18] thank you for listening and if you if you want to join us next for shot please do you just need

[01:16:23] to become a patreon subscriber and an extra shot we will be looking at how to run a CIA station abroad

[01:16:30] sbs soldiers accused of murder reports that the king has died and more so join us there take care

[01:16:36] thanks for listening

[01:16:50] thanks for listening this is secrets and spies

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