S8 Ep19: Directing James Bond with John Glen

[00:00:01] Due to the themes of this podcast, listener discretion is advised. Lock your doors, close the blinds, change your passwords. This is Secrets and Spies.

[00:00:27] Secrets and Spies is a podcast that dives into the world of espionage, terrorism, geopolitics and intrigue. This podcast is produced and hosted by Chris Carr.

[00:00:38] On today's podcast we're joined by James Bond director John Glen. John directed five Bond films starting from Furize Only and finishing with my favourite James Bond film, Controversially for some people, Licensed to Kill.

[00:00:53] On this interview I'm joined by Scott from the excellent podcast Spy Hard. Scott how are you? I am very well Chris thanks for having me on your show. It's a pleasant and wonderful to finally be here.

[00:01:04] Excellent. Well it's good to have you on. It's been the other way around in the past so it's nice to have you on here. What's the benefit of the audience? Can you just tell us a little bit about yourself and Spy Hards?

[00:01:14] Sure. Well I'm one half of Spy Hard's podcast. Basically we're a spy movie podcast. I know you guys focus on more real life than most of the time in us.

[00:01:22] But we look at different spy movies throughout the entire history of spy movies, not just James Bond. We look at that certainly. But you know Jason Bourne, Mission Impossible, everything like that all the way back to the silent era.

[00:01:33] Like you'll see Buster Keaton films on there from time to time. We really do run the gamut from when film started to now looking at different spy movies.

[00:01:41] Fantastic. Well it's a great show and I don't just set it because I've been on in the past but it is a brilliant podcast and I wish you all the best with that.

[00:01:49] So thank you for joining me on this interview today because honestly it wouldn't have happened without your help so thank you for setting it up. No thank you for having me and it was absolutely wonderful to go through this experience with you.

[00:01:59] Excellent thank you. Well let's go into our into your John Glenn and I'll catch you on the other side. The opinions expressed by guests on secrets and spies do not necessarily represent those of the producers and sponsors of this podcast.

[00:02:13] So John welcome to the podcast and thank you for having us over. It's a pleasure. It's good to have you on. So my first question and I hope I'm right and is it my right that you were in the RAF, your national service before you went into filmmaking?

[00:02:45] I was already in filmmaking. I had to leave a film that I was working on when I got called up by the Air Force and I served. I was serving 18 months and then the Korean War started. This was 1950.

[00:03:04] And suddenly I was counting the days when I would get out and then suddenly they put it up to two years so I spent two years in the Air Force. Oh wow. And were you flying or were you sort of ground star?

[00:03:17] No I was ground star and I finished up as a motor mechanic driver which was another way of saying do nothing basically.

[00:03:30] Which was fortunately it turned out to be quite fortuitous because the industry, the film industry in England had one of the worst years ever while I was in the Air Force.

[00:03:43] And a lot of my friends left the business altogether and I was in a very junior capacity in the editing rooms when I got called up.

[00:03:52] And when I came back it suddenly got busy again. That's what happens in the film industry so either all go or all stop.

[00:03:59] Yes, yes I can relate to that. The reason why I brought the RAF because one of the things I noticed about your James Bond films was a lot of aircraft involved. So I was wondering if there was some sort of flying passion that may have influenced that.

[00:04:10] No, no. And finally the only reason I went in the Air Force really was because A. The uniform was better and also I had two sisters who had been served in the RAF during the war.

[00:04:26] And I felt it gave me a bit of an end to get in there. I said oh it's a family business sort of thing.

[00:04:35] I was able to get into the RAF and otherwise I'd have finished up the square but you know if I've been in the infantry I didn't fancy that at all.

[00:04:44] Actually years ago John, previous life I spoke to you about your role in editing on a Manchester Secret Service.

[00:04:50] I interviewed you quite a time ago now. And sort of moving on from that because obviously you spoke about being in filmmaking and doing your service and then going back to filmmaking.

[00:05:00] And if we're looking at sort of the Bond films here, when you got, I would say promoted although I say both are equal part jobs.

[00:05:06] When you took your first job as director for James Bond what was that process like for you? How did that come about? That sort of first for your eyes only as it worked?

[00:05:13] Yeah well it took a long time. You know I had to first of all establish myself in the editing world and quite frankly when I started I didn't really know much.

[00:05:25] I didn't have a clue really, quite honestly I sort of stumbled through but I spent many years you know I was on some great films like The Third Man was one of my early films and The Wooden Horse.

[00:05:38] Worked with some wonderful people. Felt enough one of the assistant editors on The Third Man was a chap called Bunny Warren.

[00:05:49] Obviously they call him Bunny because his surname was Warren but he was an assistant senior to me and he taught me all the rudiments of being an assistant film editor.

[00:06:03] And many, many years later when I eventually became a film director I was going to a screening up in Water Street and a figure came stumbling along the road ahead of me.

[00:06:15] And as he came closer I recognized it was Bunny Warren and I said Bunny, I said and he looked stopped and he looked at me and he said John haven't you done well?

[00:06:30] And I almost cried it was strange really, this is a chap that served in the fleet of Air Ranger and the war.

[00:06:41] They were on pills all the time to keep them when they were flying and what have you. So he was very slow in the way he walked. That's how I recognized him by his walk really as he came towards me.

[00:06:55] And one of wonderful person and taught me a lot in the early days and he was generally pleased that I had gone on so well you know.

[00:07:06] But the actual process of becoming an editor is a long drawn out thing and it's a very artistic and extremely important job in films the editing side. And you don't learn it overnight it takes a while.

[00:07:23] You've got to throw in those days of course there's a lot of technical stuff which you don't have today. I think for younger people going into editing it's all about pushing buttons whereas in my day you had this terrible spaghetti to work with film.

[00:07:42] And it was difficult to handle you had to learn how to handle it and you had to work quickly. I tell you it's a very, very quickly fast process.

[00:07:55] Working on the wooden horse I always remember there was a screening for the great man Sir Alexander Corder up in 146 Piccadilly which was his head office.

[00:08:06] And I remember we were all rushing or it was all hands to the pump to get the film ready to show to the great man. We were working at the Shepardon Studios and the car was waiting and I was in there frantically joining film together.

[00:08:22] And I managed to join a piece you know it was all put together with paper clips and I was working so quickly a piece fell out and I managed to join it in upside down.

[00:08:33] So halfway through the screening the image was inverted and everyone turned around and glared at me you know. I was at the back of the theatre 146 Piccadilly and suddenly the great man Sir Alexander Corder suddenly lifts his hands up and makes a gesture that he wanted something lifted.

[00:08:57] And everyone was a bit puzzled and they assumed it was the sound. So they turned around to me and said put the sound up.

[00:09:07] I had a control which said raise and lower so I wasn't familiar with the theatre so I saw raise so I hit this button nothing happened I hit it again.

[00:09:18] And suddenly the lights all went up in the theatre and the curtains drew on the film halfway through and they all scrambled all over me and reverse the process and got the thing going again.

[00:09:32] And Sir Alexander Corder just sat there whether he was asleep or not I don't know but he didn't worry about it at all because I was only about 15 or 16 I got away with it.

[00:09:44] I imagine you just sat quite low in your seat at that when the bit came upside down you just all went oh that wasn't me.

[00:09:51] Well there you go but it's a lesson again everything's a lesson in life and you know when you do things in a panic and you're rushing and everyone's rushing it's you've got to make time for yourself otherwise you know disaster's happening.

[00:10:06] And you know the part of the film being upside down it's just avant-garde it's just that you're just pushing the limits of cinema.

[00:10:11] It didn't react to it everyone glared at me you know but you make a lot of mistakes when you're young and you're funny enough I feel sorry for a lot of the people today they go to school until they're in their late 20s.

[00:10:26] And people don't forgive the mistakes quite like they forgive a 15 or 16 year old you know so there's a lot to be said for starting young in a business really I think there's probably too much education today.

[00:10:37] And making mistakes it's very important because you don't learn otherwise you need to make mistakes when you're young and get away with it but when you get older you make mistakes can be a disaster.

[00:10:50] Well you speak about sort of learning your tropes, learning your game of editing and you speak about the third man speak about I'm actually Secret Service things that you worked on there.

[00:10:58] But getting that job as the director for For Your Eyes Only what did you do to prepare from sort of that jump from editing and second unit directing to directing a full feature film?

[00:11:09] Well I was very fortunate because I saw the beginning of television you know series TV series like Danger Man was one of the films that I was at you know.

[00:11:23] And we had a producer called Sidney Cole he used to be a film editor as well. He was a very good producer. He gave me the opportunity to do second unit work on the TV series because the schedules were so tight.

[00:11:41] And you know on a film like Danger Man there's lots of inserts like little miniature tape recorders which was a fully shaved razor which had been adapted to record. So all those little tight shots take ages to light and to get done properly.

[00:12:00] And I would ring a central cast in to get an actor down to do the hand work on the you know to double for Patrick McGuinn's hands.

[00:12:12] And they always sent someone down he was about 75 years of age and been sort of desperate for a bit of work and had the shakes you know so you know when you got a pack lens on the camera and you were that close.

[00:12:26] You know if you got a shaky hand you're in a lot of trouble. So I used to say why don't you sit there and have a cup of tea and I used to get in there and do it myself.

[00:12:35] Which was fine with the union because you know at least you're still employing the chap so I was able to do so all those little inserts I used to do myself. So your Patrick McGuinn's hand is brilliant.

[00:12:44] Yeah well I was young and I hadn't got the shakes at least not then. But no that was all good experience doing all those inserts and then gradually I moved on to doing some action sequences you know car run by started off with car run by some things.

[00:13:04] And when we were working at Pinewood Studios there's a little crossroads quite adjacent to the studio and it's like three or four I think there's three roads all come in and there's a little island in the middle with some shrubbery and tree.

[00:13:19] You know I used to set the camera up there and I would do about eight different shots of car running by without moving the camera more than two feet purely to keep the schedule because you know I had so much to do in such a short space of time.

[00:13:32] And you know if you'd gone over you would never get asked again so it was very important to be quick.

[00:13:40] So you know you can change a shot just by putting what we used to call a dingleberry in the foreground couple of leaves in the foreground it looks like a different shot in a different place whereas in fact it's the same shot that you've done previously.

[00:13:55] So you learn all those tricks you know shortcuts and I learned how to you know I had good ideas I suppose and I learned how to do run by to make them dramatic and what have you.

[00:14:10] And then gradually you get more and more important work as the producers so that you know what you're doing. So you know I was I was editing and finding time to do those shots and I used to use my assistants so I used to delegate.

[00:14:28] I'd say you know get on and join those few shots together and then when I came back from doing my second unit I come back a little bit they've done and I said what did you do that for you know so and so and so.

[00:14:40] Think dramatic and gradually these chaps who are my assistants or became editors because the only way you learn is by actually doing the job.

[00:14:50] You can have all the theory in the world it helps you but it doesn't you know at the end of the day you've got to be at a handle of the film.

[00:14:58] But today it's different it's a completely different thing because you're on electronics now it's all push button so I think it was just as well that I went on to become a director. Because I don't think I could handle the stuff today.

[00:15:16] Well you said your first one films for your eyes only what was that like moving from editors being director in that movie because it's a big responsibility. What was that like and how do you prepare.

[00:15:27] I was very very fortunate in a fact that I edited three bond films prior to that. So I was very familiar with all the crew and the cast of the producers. Roger Moore of course was a great benefit.

[00:15:43] He was such a pro never fluffed a line I'm going to have I did ask him on day he said always it's a technique you learn you know as an actor.

[00:15:53] But he was always there and sometimes you know we'd choose a lady in a scene for a beauty and you know looks. Probably wasn't a very good actress at all.

[00:16:07] So you know you do about eight or nine takes on this actress and Roger was feeding the lines off screen and I used to feel for him a bit because he was always take one take two done. He was so professional but he was very patient with everyone.

[00:16:23] Very professional very good director himself actually. Were there any sort of influences for you with your eyes only because it's obviously quite a for Roger is quite a dramatic film and in many ways I felt like there's some similarities with what you did later with license to kill.

[00:16:41] But with your eyes only was there anything driving you in that direction to sort of make it more dramatic and should we say more grounded. Well Spiro loved me was when I came back in the fold with Lewis Gilbert.

[00:16:55] I was working with Lewis Gilbert in Paris on another film Seven Nights in Japan it was called and Tom McConnell was the editor and she got sick on the film and in fact she died on the film and on a deathbed she whispered to Lewis Gilbert.

[00:17:14] Get John Glenn because I'd work with Thelma on TV series for just men many years before and I always remember there were two sound editors.

[00:17:28] I was a sound editor at that time and there were two of us and she at the end of the thing there was only room for one person to stay and she called me into her office and she said John dear John.

[00:17:41] So I know that when you leave here you'll get another job straight away. He said but the other chap Freddie will struggle so do you mind leaving first so he can have a few more weeks work and I said sure.

[00:17:55] And she was paying me back for that all those years later. Yeah. So it's quite it's quite amazing. I was almost willed to Lewis Gilbert. I had worked with Lewis previously as a sound editor. The admirable cry and cry from the streets.

[00:18:12] I was sound editor with Lewis and when he called me to offer me the job in Paris. He said you're that tall lean chap aren't you. I said well I'm not so lean anymore. Well you mentioned Chris Branson licensed to kill.

[00:18:29] I know you want to get to that in a minute but just on for your eyes only because it's actually one of my favorite of the bomb films because I prefer the more sort of serious toned.

[00:18:36] They're from Russia with loves those sort of things all up to the Craig films now and that's why I always go to for your eyes only when it comes to Roger Moore.

[00:18:45] When it comes to the tone of that film obviously it's quite a shift from from what came before. I think Moomaraker previously that's a very different tonal film to for your eyes only.

[00:18:54] Was that a conscious effort from from Broccoli and from above to make it that or was that something that you sort of injected yourself. Well I mean Roger was not supposed to do that film.

[00:19:08] He was that he was in the middle of negotiations with Cubby Broccoli and he was out of contract and I was my first time. My last task was to find a new James Bond.

[00:19:23] I always remember Cubby said we got to find a new guy because Roger's not doing anymore he was getting too expensive and they were haggling you know.

[00:19:31] And I like a full bullied every word of it and I went out and I went all over the world testing Australian actors American actors you name it.

[00:19:40] And eventually at the end of the day it was a it was a poker game between Cubby and Roger because they were both quite shrewd guys when it came to money.

[00:19:51] And so you know it was it was an effort to keep his money within bounds shall we say and eventually of course Roger agreed to do it.

[00:20:01] He kind of resented me initially because although I worked with Roger on about five films up to that point in fact he turned around one day and said am I in your life. I'm not in your contract or you in mine.

[00:20:13] But he he he was he took it very well in the end but he kind of he had heard that of course I was testing that was the whole point of the thing I was testing other actors and initially it was a bit sort of frosty the first couple of days but Roger couldn't hold a garage for long and you know we were very good friends.

[00:20:33] And we had a wonderful working relationship but to answer your question he my instructions were to make the series more earthy after moon raker which have gone into space and all that and gone a little bit silly I think.

[00:20:48] And I had to bring the series down to earth and we had one of one of two notable moments on that film where Roger and I kind of disagreed about what he should do and I think it was the main one was when he pushed the film.

[00:21:03] The car off the cliff. And Roger wanted the weight of the little flag emblem the dove emblem to be the counterbalance that sent the car hurtling to with lock in the villain in the car to his death.

[00:21:22] And I said no Roger I think that he killed your best friend on the film.

[00:21:28] I said I think you would kick that car off the cliff not just be too subtle about it and we had a quite a discussion about it and it was a pivotal pivotal turning point I think in the way Roger played in the film and they had lots of fun and lots of lots of laughs and things and he's quite light hearted.

[00:21:48] It was a moment of high drama and after we we shot it both ways I mean I said OK we would try it your way but then I want you to do it my way and he readily agreed.

[00:22:01] And at the end I did both he tossed the dove emblem in and they kicked it kick the car off the cliff and it was afterwards Roger turned around and admitted that was the right decision.

[00:22:13] Yeah it's a very dramatic point and I think it leads nicely into the tone of license to kill.

[00:22:20] So before we go into less what was the transition from Roger to sort of Timothy Dalton like you know because you're bringing in a new actor to portray Bond and I know you've already been on this sort of quest earlier but what was it like now handling this official transition that's happening.

[00:22:34] Well it's always a tremendous gamble I think when you change your Bond actor. You know there aren't that many. It's just kind of strange role really. You need a physically attractive specimen of a man at the same time you need someone who's a good actor but doesn't have to be a Shakespearean actor like Timothy Dalton was.

[00:22:59] Today I think there's quite a number of actors who could probably play Janus Bond but at that time there seemed to be a bit of a dearth of that type of actor and I remember when I was in Los Angeles with Cubby and we were discussing this and I said to him what about Timothy Dalton because we had considered him in the past when he was young after he did Lion in Winter.

[00:23:23] They considered him and he was very young then very good actor and he wasn't really interested in playing Janus Bond at that time but times move on and now like 15 years later whatever it was he was more you know in tune with taking that part.

[00:23:43] But he wanted to bring his own brand of personality to the role and we discussed it at length and we agreed that we would use his acting ability which was considerable to put a harder edge on the Bond more in the sort of Fleming style which he originally wrote.

[00:24:05] So we were going back to the roots of Bond really and Timothy I remember a couple of times on the set on the first film you know he liked to put his hands in his pockets and things like that and I took him to one side and I said yeah Tim don't put your hands in your pocket.

[00:24:24] I said you know Bond was a naval officer he would have been ingrained in him not to do that and things like that and I don't think Tim necessarily agreed with me but he went along with it but you know he got stupid little games like you know off on the side of camera I couldn't see he'd ever hand in his pocket you know things like that so you know you accept certain things.

[00:24:47] But you know I didn't want him to be you know always Bond is always mackedly dressed you know with every occasion and it's part of the character so I was very insistent.

[00:25:01] I think he has the best James Bond introduction in the whole series that holds your brawls a sequence is brilliant. Did the because I know Timothy kind of came in quite sort of late to the process did him coming in affect the script for the Living Day lines.

[00:25:16] Yeah well yeah we had and we'd run out of Fleming's stories actually and we were using short stories and titles and Michael Wilson and Richard Maybarn you know had to really invent these stories to large degree.

[00:25:36] Although we did go back into the history of Bond and use some of the sequence sequences which hadn't been filmed which were in the books on the some of the original books like the for instance in the Greek thing about the underwater stuff which had been in an earlier book and not being used.

[00:25:57] For what reason it wasn't used I don't know but I mean there's so much material action material in the Fleming books and they made great use of them in the past.

[00:26:10] Yeah so you know we we actually more than had to construct a whole we use that on for your eyes only we use the short story which was called for your eyes only but it only occupied probably about 10 minutes of the film.

[00:26:26] And it's a very good scene I must say it's original Fleming and it was beautifully played by Roger and Carol Bouquet. It was very very beautiful French girl.

[00:26:38] Funny enough that was Roger used to query some of my action ideas and when he escaped from the mob by the swimming pool in that film that I said to him yeah you get take one of these beach umbrellas and use it to cut the

[00:26:55] cushion your fall when you leap 18 feet off the top of the balcony onto the ground below and to escape.

[00:27:03] And eyebrows were lifted as you can imagine I suggested that but you know same thing when I when I said on the octopus who be rode him into the circus and he had to wear a clowns outfit. Yeah you can't be serious.

[00:27:20] Me dressed up as a clown but it was a perfect disguise you know it's actually one of the most serious parts of that film despite the costume. What's going on in the background of that.

[00:27:31] It's like a counterpoint that's why I loved about it you know it was unexpected even dressing him up in a gorilla's outfit in the train you know they're searching for him in this carriage and it's all the costumes are there.

[00:27:46] And you pan onto the eight monkeys costume and there's Roger's eyes turning you know I have a lovely moment you know and the audience loved it. You know it's again counterpoint you're in a very dramatic situation and then you saw in a bit of humor.

[00:28:05] What Bond does best I find that stat that being able to switch between those two moments. Yeah it is something that I think Bond films do very well. It is very much Bond doesn't it tongue in cheek.

[00:28:13] Yeah one moment in that transition phase that Chris was talking about between having Dalton join the production for the daylights and licensed to kill. There is a brief moment in time and there's a couple of photos of you with Pierce Brosnan where Pierce was going to be.

[00:28:30] Yeah I shot the test for Pierce and he was very good it was just that he was under contract with Mary Tyler Moore for Remington Steel.

[00:28:38] And when she heard that we were going to use him as Bond of course she enacted his contract and wanted to continue her series but that was not.

[00:28:48] Company broccoli wasn't going to have that so he was he was put to one side shall we say for a few years and actually it was a good thing because he was he was very good at it. He was very good at it.

[00:29:01] He made a very good Bond more in the Roger Moore mold I felt you know he wasn't a heavy bond he was like Roger was you know a lot of humor.

[00:29:10] And it was well definitely ended well when he came to Pierce you know when he came back in 95 years of GoldenEye I mean that's a triumph in many ways. It's the reason I'm a Bond fan it brought me into the fold as a child.

[00:29:21] But you know it's interesting to see that sort of transition with Pierce how long was he part of the production for until you lost him.

[00:29:30] Well we did the tests and they were very very good and we sent them out to America and they approved him as Bond and we came back and we celebrated.

[00:29:43] We had dinner at the White Elephant with Cubby and Pierce and had a celebratory lunch and the phone rang and Pinewood Studios was on fire.

[00:29:55] Our 007 stage was a light Ridley Scott was doing a film there and during the lunch hour the set caught fire and it burnt the stage down. You wouldn't believe it a stage made of steel and concrete and was just rubble.

[00:30:11] And then of course the Mary Tyler Moore thing came up and Pierce had to go by his contract he'd signed an open contract with her and therefore it precluded him from taking the part really.

[00:30:27] But you know all these things that's when Timothy entered the fray and I always remember we had dinner at Michael Wilson's place with Timothy and we discussed it. We agreed that he would become a more serious Bond of the Fleming type.

[00:30:46] It didn't mean that he wouldn't have the humour but you know he'd be we'd try and really make use of his acting ability. And I think we succeeded.

[00:30:57] I think some ways those films are a little bit ahead of their time because I think the Daniel Craig films are very much in that vein now. Yeah, yeah.

[00:31:06] Well it's a great thing about Bond the actors whichever actor you choose you have to sort of say what are their strong points and take full advantage of it. It's a sensible approach.

[00:31:17] I think probably when Roger Moore took over from Sean Connery shall we say the first couple of films he didn't really he didn't really put stamp his own personality on the part.

[00:31:31] He must have had like one foot in the Sean Connery camp and one shot one one foot in the in his own personality and Roger had lots of personality believe me.

[00:31:41] And I think once we once Spio Love Me was a very good film and I think that was when Roger really cemented the part you know. And from then on in that's you know he made the part his own. It was very successful as Bond.

[00:31:58] Well let's take a quick break and then we'll be right back. You mentioned earlier obviously they were running out of Fleming novels to adapt.

[00:32:18] And one thing I noticed about the two Dolton films Living Daylights and Licensed to Kill they did have a feeling of being on the pulse of current events because in 1985 you had something called the Year of the Spy where there were so many defections going on the real world.

[00:32:33] And famously Oleg Gordieffsky and then and then with Licensed to Kill you've got this drug bar and Sanchez and I was wondering if you had any insight just of what the inspiration for those sort of two topics were really in those films.

[00:32:46] I suppose you know when we look back on that time you're right it was it was the era of the Spies you know I can always remember the chap who was who was killed with an umbrella which had a poison tip on it on London Bridge.

[00:33:02] Sounds far fetched doesn't it but you know people were assassinating in genius ways and it was almost like a James Bond film. Things change you know the styles change.

[00:33:16] I think that in a way there was far more meat for a Bond story in those days than there probably is today. It gets more and more difficult actually to fit Bond into the present day.

[00:33:30] You want to see Bond actually doing a hand to hand stuff with in action. I think the electronics and that are so sophisticated now that are taking a lot of the fun out of making movies.

[00:33:43] You know there are you have to scratch your brain a bit to do something original but you know we always did very good things on trains for instance you know we've had some wonderful I mean from Russia with love you know big scene on the train there.

[00:33:58] There's always a fight and very sophisticated dialogue you know how did you know I was who I said I was and he said well you ordered something or some wine the wrong wine with your meal.

[00:34:14] It was very clever dialogue really and and of course Robert Shaw was a wonderful adversary to Bond. He would have made a wonderful Bond Robert Shaw but there you go. Yeah times change and you have to change with them. Yeah. Yeah we used to write the scripts.

[00:34:37] I mean we took a big chance with the drugs thing on license to kill because I mean you know it is a terribly hard harsh cruel business and they kill not only they kill the people they kill their families they kill everybody.

[00:34:54] They're ruthless lot kind of bit hard to make a Bond movie with that background and we did take a risk.

[00:35:01] And I mean you look at license to kill now I mean it's far more acceptable now and it was when we made it I think but we tried to be realistic and honest about it. And it's a good film I'm very proud of it.

[00:35:16] I think it holds up very well I saw it last year at the Prince Charles cinema I got my view with there Scott but just watching it on the big screen and one of the big things I appreciate.

[00:35:26] I'm sort of transitioning a bit to the technical side of things now but we're the practical stunts that you use because obviously today we use a lot of computer generated technology that I find just takes the believability out of sequences and you've got this spectacular stuff with aircraft.

[00:35:41] You've got that amazing tanker chase. Now I suppose I'm really fascinated by a what inspired those sort of sequences and be how do you go about sort of doing them because especially the aircraft stuff is in the tanker.

[00:35:52] Yeah I mean the airplane for instance we flew it over the particular plane we found in America and we flew it over via Iceland at a limited range you know and then flew on to Danermeyer field.

[00:36:11] Then we in the field opposite the studio at Pinewood there was a farmers field with a fence in the center and a hedge and with the farmers permission we bought those these heads down enough for the plane to land and we actually flew it from Denim and landed it actually just outside the studio.

[00:36:35] We took it to pieces and put it on the set and did all our close shots on the set. And was that the plane for living daylights that plane or yeah yeah the Hercules sequence that's brilliant.

[00:36:47] No the Hercules wasn't the Hercules down the field that wouldn't have worked. No it was the one in India where they were on the outside of the airplane having a fight on the outside of the airplane.

[00:37:04] Yeah yeah yeah yeah the twin beach I think it is isn't it. Yeah it was a beach aircraft. You know Peter Lamont who unfortunately died a couple of years ago was a superb designer and nothing was a problem you know.

[00:37:17] I like on the train sequence we had a back in a moving back in which we laid so it was horizontal and we had a crane and we lifted the locomotive over the top of this moving back in and we painted railway lines on the back in.

[00:37:35] And that's how we did all that close shot of Roger underneath the train having a fight and being hacked out by the Indian adversary who had a sword and severed the pipes of the air pipes. And it was very exciting scene actually.

[00:37:54] Yeah and we had this sort of 20 ton locomotive hanging over the top of Bond and we played that scene there with this moving back in which we use quite a lot in films. You know projection rear projections very good for certain scenes.

[00:38:11] Yeah yeah but you do lose quality. I said we used to avoid that wherever possible so if we could use a moving back in it was better for the photography than using front projection or rear projection. Yeah got you.

[00:38:28] I think we've licensed the killer it didn't seem there was so much rear projection especially that tanker sequence quite a lot is going on. You've got this moment where Timothy Dolton is jumping from the crop duster plane to the tanker itself that he's getting shot at.

[00:38:39] It's all sorts of things kind of going on. How did you sort of break those bits up because it's quite a lot of parts there. I spent about a week down at Mexicali in Mexico shooting all the main actors Roger and so forth.

[00:38:54] Timothy's brother one of my toys Roger Timothy doing the close shots and so forth. So I did the minimum that I could do there and after Worcester again is departed I'm afraid. He was a wonderful second unit director and cameraman.

[00:39:11] Again the art of delegation you pick these people and they're fantastic and he spent a bit I must spend a month down there with Barbara Broccoli.

[00:39:21] She was producing that part of it and it's an incredible scene that truck sequence and it was very dangerous and a lot of that stuff we did with doubles and you know the slightest slip they fell down. You got 16 wheels on every truck.

[00:39:38] It'd be very difficult to miss anyone but fortunately we had a few accidents but nothing serious too serious. But those trucks were very unforgiving and when you're dealing with those moving things most of it was done for real.

[00:39:55] Well there's one shot it pops in my head where I think it's the after the rocket's been fired at Timothy.

[00:40:01] I think the trucks blown up and then the car that was chasing him is now on fire and kind of goes off a cliff and it just narrowly avoids Pam in the plane. It's like it's been fired off.

[00:40:12] How did you get the timing of those exactly it was difficult. Well I was a bit I was a bit scared that one that John Richardson who's our special effects supervisor absolute wizard. We made a scaled down version of the car.

[00:40:26] He constructed it like a third size and he fired it out of an air cannon and Corky Fawnoff who was the pilot of the airplane.

[00:40:36] He was a bit worried he said well you know so I said well you know it will shoot it in such a way that it will look a lot closer to hitting the your airplane but hopefully it won't.

[00:40:49] But John couldn't test it really because it would have destroyed the actual mock up car. So he just worked it out and he's very clever and we just did one take of it and it was fine. That was good. That was really good.

[00:41:05] But we see we use the similar thing on the octopus when when the locomotive hits the car and the car nearly takes the fisherman down in the mean river down below. And that was tight. That was really tight.

[00:41:23] That did actually hit the boat and these two or three stuntmen who were supposed to be fishermen would really jump for their lives. Oh my God.

[00:41:32] Doing it for real definitely makes it look good and I suppose it looks even better when people actually are running for their lives. But I don't think we'll get away of that these days would we? Probably not.

[00:41:44] I'm sure there's too many health and safety check boxes we need to do to get these sorts of things done now. But I would just sort of maybe wrapping up the stunt side of things for it.

[00:41:51] But one thing I always say about your films John is you know how to do action. All of your films the action is tremendous and you can just watch it and be wowed about what you see on the screen.

[00:42:01] So maybe more of a general question for all the films that you worked on as a director. What do you think makes a good action sequence and how did you get that in your films? Well you plan it. You draw it all up.

[00:42:11] I'm the world's worst artist but I used to do my own little storyboards, little stick insects and arrows and instructions. And then I'd employ good artists come in sometimes too at the same time.

[00:42:28] And they would then embellish my drawings and I used to look at their storyboards after they use mine as a guide but you know then they confer with me every now and again. Did you mean this or that?

[00:42:42] And Roger Deere was a very good artist and he used to draw his storyboards sometimes outside the frame. You know he would extend the storyboard so it was outside the little square of the frame.

[00:42:58] And he was brilliant and when they were so good that his drawings from my terrible drawings that it used to inspire people. I used to post them all around the room in my office all these sequences like the truck sequence or the huge sequence.

[00:43:14] It was about 25 minutes long in the film. You know it occupied the whole of my offices all the drawings so it's all planned and on a bomb film sometimes we'd have four units shooting the same scene. I would concentrate.

[00:43:30] I used to do the second unit so you know I'm very familiar with how it all works. But you'd have an underwater sequence. So you'd have specialist underwater cameramen and so forth.

[00:43:42] And in fact on for your eyes only we were filming the top side of the chase of the scene where the villains trying to drown Roger and the girl they're tied together.

[00:43:55] I was doing the stuff on the surface at the exact exactly the same time that our underwater camera crew were out in the Bahamas shooting what was going on underneath.

[00:44:06] And it's planning you know and I loved it just the planning these action they're all drawn everyone knew what they were doing. And the beauty of it is if you a lot of directors won't delegate with action you have to delegate because otherwise you'd never do it.

[00:44:21] You'd run out of time and the second third fourth units can do it again and again.

[00:44:27] I can see the rushes and say no it's not like I have another go you know it doesn't cost a fortune but on the first unit you're dealing with the actors you know thousands of pounds a minute you know time is precious and you can't go behind schedule otherwise it just throws you shoot him for six months.

[00:44:45] You can imagine the overages if you start going out of schedule and you only you hire actors for certain scenes for certain days. If you get out of sync with that it can be very expensive. I can hear the dollar signs just rattling up the background.

[00:45:03] You have to be aware of that. You share that trait then without Hitchcock because he famously he drew out almost every single moment of every single film he ever did meticulously. And that's why he such a visually was a visually dynamic filmmaker.

[00:45:17] Yeah well you buy time you see if you if you're sensible and you know your limitations you know what you can do and what you can't do. And you get you get you pick your own crew and you pick great aerial cameraman like B.J. Worth.

[00:45:34] You know wonderful guys to work with young inexperienced in film but wonderful what they do. And you know I did moon raker the pre title sequence on moon raker out in California we go to California because the weather's better.

[00:45:51] You try to an aerial sequence in England you could be there for six months before you got the big guy's blue skies and they got a quite a different attitude there with aeroplanes are like easy to work with in America.

[00:46:10] So we used to do a lot of air aerial stuff in America and I was out in the Napa Valley for about three weeks on moon raker and I drawn it all up and I was at being an editor as well.

[00:46:23] I was editing my materials I went along as I was shooting each two second segment of the airborne chase and airborne fight. Yeah.

[00:46:32] The concept of you know Roger being pushed out of a plane without a parachute has to catch up with a guy who's already jumped who has a parachute wrestle the parachute away from him. Put it on and then he gets hit by jaws. It sounds simple doesn't it.

[00:46:54] Very general question what do you think of the essential ingredients of a good bond film. Well actions very important extremely important the stories a bit a little don't have to be that strong but they need to be simple understandable.

[00:47:12] You've got to have the humor is a special kind of humor tongue-in-cheek you know is essential on the bond. It's a delicate balance. I mean some people probably look at my films and think maybe I'll win a little bit too comic on some of the stuff.

[00:47:28] I mean I was probably influenced by the Keystone cops and all those early things I saw when I was a kid you know as kids cinema. I used to go to the Astoria Ashford Saturday morning I really look forward to it.

[00:47:43] I think that's probably where my creativity in terms of action came from all the full of kids and you know daring dudes going on the screen. And I seem to remember all that stuff you know it's strange doesn't it.

[00:47:58] It just sinks into your subconscious and but I guess I was pretty good at action because I was an editor and I could visualize action in small segments.

[00:48:08] You know you think of a simple thing and maybe there's a car crash and someone gets thrown out and someone dies and someone does this and does that. But you then you've got to break it down into easy to film segments.

[00:48:23] Don't try and do too much in one if you follow me otherwise it will go wrong. It's complicated and there is a safety aspect to it.

[00:48:32] You know if you you're doing a dangerous stunt I mean probably my most famous scene is the ski parachute jump in Spyolove me at the first thing we ever shot on Spyolove me. And I was working with Lewis in Paris.

[00:48:51] Lewis Gilbert he came in he said I've got to have lunch with Cubby Broccoli today he's just flown in from America.

[00:48:58] So you went off and had lunch with Cubby and when he came back he said oh Cubby it's very keen for you to do some some of the action shooting on the movie.

[00:49:08] You know he was praising you for the work you did on the Measures to Secret Service and what have you. And you know the Bob Slate sequence principally which Cubby and I both enjoyed going down on the Bob Slate run.

[00:49:21] And he said we've got to find something for John to do. Well the problem was I was finishing with Lewis and there was a three month gap before the film was going to start. So they got to write it all and everything you know at least three months.

[00:49:36] So he talked to Cubby about it and he came back and he said well don't worry we'll find you something to do. And that's something to do was to do that pre-title sequence with Rick Sylvester.

[00:49:47] Just that little sequence everyone loves and is one of the best I've seen so far. Lewis said afterwards he said that sequence costs as much as one of my feature films cost.

[00:49:58] You know on one of his early films like I mean one of his best films was the film with Michael Cain, Alfie. Oh yes. One of my favourite films I just love it. Lewis is a very simple director very easy to work with.

[00:50:14] You know what you're doing boy get on with it sort of thing. So I can remember him saying that to me. Yeah give you some rough outline of what he wanted and he said go on you'd get on with it.

[00:50:27] And you know he gave you a lot of freedom as you learn from them. He was a master filmmaker and one of the most prolific directors we've ever had in this country to reflect.

[00:50:40] That just sparks your imagination doesn't it though because they give you the sort of freedom to go and do it and you have to then envision it and create something. That's right. Yeah I mean you know you plan these things.

[00:50:52] I mean the whole essence of the Bond action scenes is they were planned.

[00:50:57] Certainly in my day though you know we you have to you have to storyboard it because otherwise everyone has their own interpretation of and you allow them a certain you know you allow them a certain latitude when they do it you know after Worcester would telephone me in the middle of somewhere and say oh it's not working.

[00:51:17] Because I said and I quickly say well change it to whatever yeah fine go ahead change it and I sort it out. You can't really swim against the tide sometimes you have to go with it. Know your strengths and play to them I say.

[00:51:32] Well one thing I wanted to ask and sort of bouncing off of Chris's question a little bit was baddies. One thing I always say again apart from action video films as you do some fantastic villains I recently spoke with Robert Davie.

[00:51:43] And he did nothing but praise your direction in the film and said you remain one of the best actors he's ever so best directors he's ever worked with.

[00:51:52] And I wanted to sort of throw that comment and act sort of to you and ask what do you think makes a good villain because I think you made several great villains. Oh I think we you know they have to be almost as equal to bond.

[00:52:04] I think that's the secret that they are an adversary that is their equal so they have to pit their wits against each other. And you're always looking for that and Davie Robert Davie was a brilliant villain. In fact we dressed him up.

[00:52:20] We were testing some girls for various parts in Hollywood and we dressed Robert up in this tuxedo and he played Bond for the tests. And he was brilliant as Bond. He was a rugged Bond you know and I mean Robert is handsome in a rugged way.

[00:52:38] He's like your typical hoodlum if you like in terms of mafia type. You would use in the film it's perfect you know Al Capone or someone like that it'd be terrific you know but he was also handsome in a very rugged way and very masculine very tough.

[00:53:01] And a pleasure to work with very professional.

[00:53:05] For the sort of looking at your cavalcade of baddies even like Christopher Walken someone you were a viewer kill is it the casting that gets the best villain or is it coming from the script or is it a combination of the both where do you think that magic comes from.

[00:53:18] Well it's very much a compilation job really I mean you know you you write you have you have a vision of a villain shall we say sure. And then you cast your net around and who's available who would do it you know who's affordable.

[00:53:36] You know Marlon Brando I work with on Christopher Columbus you know I was terrified.

[00:53:43] He was very lately he was cast at the last minute if you like and his children were up on murder charges and he said to me he said I'm only doing this film to pay the lawyers fees.

[00:53:56] But what a charming man he was the exact opposite of what I expected.

[00:54:02] I was I trembled when I thought I'm dealing with this is the great probably the greatest screen actor there's ever been you know and that's saying something isn't it but he turned out to be absolutely charming.

[00:54:15] You know he was towards the end of his career so maybe you've mellowed a bit but I just found him so cooperative and so easy and so talented.

[00:54:25] He used to use a voice thing like a hearing aid and the lines were relayed from another room into his ear by a little radio I didn't realize that initially.

[00:54:37] And I kept saying can you yeah I think you just speed that scene up a bit on that because he was pausing while he heard the stuff coming from next door.

[00:54:47] But he'd reached that stage in his life where he couldn't remember or he didn't want to remember too much and he took the he was clever. He worked his magic on the screen Marlon.

[00:55:00] Well John I think unfortunately we'll probably have to wrap up but thank you so much for your time today it's been wonderful chatting with you. It's been a pleasure. Yeah thank you very much thank you Scott.

[00:55:13] Well it was great to hear that again it was kind of it was so kind of John his wife Janine to have us over at their house and I don't know about you there was a few little pointers here and there it sort of stood out just listening back to it.

[00:55:30] One of the fun ones was the I enjoyed the discussion about some of the stunts in license to kill and how they managed to achieve that shot that I've always liked in the film where this car is sort of shot over an airplane look incredibly.

[00:55:41] Dangerous and apparently they were using sort of a combination of miniatures and special angles with the photography that was quite fun. I don't know if there's anything sort for you Scott.

[00:55:50] Well I mean there's nothing like particularly moment wise that stands out because I think the entire experience to me was just a really wonderful run a full couple of hours basically we've got to spend with John Glenn and his wife and just be welcomed into that house by him.

[00:56:01] And I think welcomed is the right word here because he welcomes fans into the world of James Bond.

[00:56:08] He clearly cares about James Bond about the films that he worked on not just a five year director but you know he edited on some before that as well he's been part of the family for many years and he's still an ambassador for James Bond to this day so I think welcoming is the right word.

[00:56:21] Yeah indeed and he still holds the record for directing the most James Bond films and I don't really see that being beaten by anybody.

[00:56:30] Martin Campbell actually you know Martin Campbell is even second yet is he because you probably have what Lewis Gilbert and who else would you have. You're putting me on the spot for James Bond not when it's I know some things but not a lot.

[00:56:42] Where's my co-host Cam when I need him he would have all these details for you. But no I think I think some of those names are probably out of the running now just because you know Father Time has been here.

[00:56:53] Yes but I don't see Sam Mendes coming back for three more or Martin Campbell. No no indeed well look Scott thank you again for joining me today.

[00:57:03] One last thing the reason why I'm putting this out around Christmas is for me James Bond movies always remind me of sort of bank holidays and Christmas and I think one of my earliest Christmas James Bond memories was watching on her magic secret service while I was on the show.

[00:57:16] I was opening presents in 1989 which is a very long time ago now. I don't know if you have any kind of memories with James Bond and Christmas or bank holidays.

[00:57:25] It's not so much tied into Christmas or bank holidays my earliest James Bond memory is coming out of a screening of Tomorrow Never Dies and sitting in the back of my parents car and trying to drive it with some sort of implement I found in the back of the car just thinking I was James Bond and I was hooked from then on in so yeah wonderful.

[00:57:41] Love it yeah yeah that's a really cool. I love Tomorrow Never Dies. I think it's a very underrated James Bond film and yeah that sequence where he has the mobile phone to control the car I think fulfills a lot of fantasies for a lot of guys out there.

[00:57:55] I think we're all still trying to get that now. Yeah indeed well we're getting closer aren't we. Scott thank you again for joining me today. Where can listeners sort of find out more about you and your work at Spyhards?

[00:58:06] Well it's a good time to pop on over and check us out.

[00:58:09] I mean not only have we spoken to John Glenn in the past as well and actually focused on Her Majesty's Secret Service which you mentioned we had a long interview with him a few years ago but just a couple weeks ago we brought out another director James Bond interview with Lee Tamahori the man behind Die Another Day.

[00:58:23] It's a fascinating conversation a lot of insight into why that film is what it is. I urge you all to check it out.

[00:58:29] Yeah it's a fun one but you can find us I mean for spies we are terrible at our jobs because you can find us literally everywhere. You just search for Spyhards any podcast app you'll find us. Social media we're all at Spyhards just look for us there.

[00:58:44] Excellent well thank you again for joining me today. Thank you Chris.