S8: Easter sample of Extra Shot our Patreon only show

[00:00:00] Hello everybody, I hope you are well. Matt and I are taking the weekend off as it's the

[00:00:06] Easter weekend so we plan to enjoy some chocolate and time of our families. So today

[00:00:11] we're posting up an episode of Extra Shot. Extra Shot is our Patreon only show that

[00:00:17] comes immediately after espresso martini so I wanted to share an episode to give you a

[00:00:22] taste and if you like it please consider subscribing to our Patreon page and you'll get two episodes of Extra Shot a month.

[00:00:31] So this episode is dated from the 2nd of March 2024 and in it we look at recommendations for a shake-up of

[00:00:39] British intelligence, the arrest of an alleged member of the Red Army faction in Germany. We also

[00:00:45] look at the conviction of a left-wing terrorist in the UK and a cyber attack against an Iranian spy ship. So I hope you enjoy this episode

[00:00:54] and I hope you have a fantastic Easter weekend. Take care.

[00:01:15] Hello everybody and welcome to Extra Shot. If you're listening to this you

[00:02:15] just about that. Yeah so at the recent Munich Security Conference the former heads of the UK's

[00:02:20] DCHQ and MI6 are Jeremy Fleming and Sir Alex Younger advocated for a modern restructuring of the

[00:02:27] UK's intelligence services. Traditional divisions between domestic foreign and signals intelligence

[00:02:32] are outdated in the contemporary security landscape they said. They argued for the integration of

[00:02:37] capabilities over territorial disputes within intelligence agencies. Fleming highlighted that

[00:02:43] differentiating between domestic and foreign threats is increasingly irrelevant in today's context.

[00:02:48] The focus should shift towards organizing intelligence services according to the threats they

[00:02:53] counter and the safety of the populations they serve. Discussions revolved around the British

[00:02:58] government's data collection and utilization for various security purposes including traditional

[00:03:03] and emerging threats such as healthcare sector vulnerabilities. Younger suggested that if intelligence

[00:03:08] services were established today they would be structured differently, urging against fetishizing

[00:03:14] organizational boundaries. Despite facing persistent terrorism threats Britain is considered

[00:03:19] advanced in integrating intelligence capabilities due with smaller size and experience. Fleming

[00:03:25] noted significant changes in the composition of intelligence agencies highlighting a departure from

[00:03:30] easily distinguishable roles among different agencies. Chris what do you think of this one?

[00:03:34] No it's a good one. It's funny you just mentioned Alex Younger and a memory just popped into my

[00:03:39] head a really random one last year I was just walking around Whitehall and I guess who I spotted.

[00:03:44] Alex Younger exactly. I was like shit is the former sea head of MI6 and I was wondering

[00:03:49] in the night after I thought how many people would recognize me. I even know that's who he was yeah

[00:03:54] it's me like kind of you know fangirling or fanboying whatever over the former head of MI6 as I saw

[00:04:00] I was like bloody hell you know it's like a celebrity but you know a very select circle of celebrity

[00:04:05] I guess but yeah but no very interesting piece and obviously so there are growing for a single

[00:04:10] integrated agency as opposed to the traditional three and I suspect on some level that would be more

[00:04:15] economically minded and probably even operationally more effective because obviously the reliance

[00:04:20] on tech and intelligence gathering today can kind of see why there's that natural integration

[00:04:25] but the idea of a single agency might not be popular in certain sections of the British public or

[00:04:29] remember one of the subplots of was its specter was around this sort of new single all-single knowing

[00:04:36] spy agency run by Andrew Scott as see which apparently may not have stood for or was it coming

[00:04:44] as it sees a reference to oh guys it Lord Mansfield coming who was the first MI6 head

[00:04:51] yeah rather than the the other sea word that Ray Fines mentioned anyway. I don't know why I just

[00:04:57] thought it meant chief. It might do that too but it's supposed to be a nod to as a man feels coming

[00:05:03] because he was always just known as sea I think like I do know whether it was like some weird

[00:05:08] abbreviation of his name people just call him sea I mean I know somebody who refers to himself

[00:05:12] wise two initials and his wife by her two initials it does happen. Corporate and formalized

[00:05:19] relationship yeah and did you know greens are spy color in Britain so yeah it's why our logo's

[00:05:25] green because sea rights with green ink and he's the only person in MI6 and I think the entire

[00:05:30] intelligence community who writes and green ink and if you ever go to the national archives

[00:05:35] sometimes you're lucky to find a document that has been signed by one of the seas over the years

[00:05:40] and it's always quite exciting to see it so yeah I did know the green ink part. Yeah so whatever

[00:05:47] so with this as I was saying about this sort of public perception for this single agency to be

[00:05:51] publicly accepted in the UK I think there will need to be a better effort to educate people

[00:05:56] on the real life functions of intelligence so people are not drawing on James Bond or slow horses

[00:06:01] as their reference point because I think at the moment they probably will be a fear that it's

[00:06:07] going to be like the star zeal something and people just lose their spadoink or over

[00:06:13] a single agency. I can just see it now but from a general election point of view if the intelligence

[00:06:18] community can turn around and say hey we could be more cost effective and more effective I could

[00:06:24] see the next government whoever that may be might well consider this but I think operationally

[00:06:31] the only I think one of the plus sides of splitting your HT's up is if there is a bad actor among them

[00:06:37] a model then they only get access to so much information rather than the whole picture but then

[00:06:44] saying that we're in a different world now so it probably even if you work for MI6 you probably

[00:06:50] could get access to gz HQ stuff if you know what you're doing same with MI5 you could probably get

[00:06:56] hold of MI6 stuff if you know what you're doing because we're also computer based now.

[00:06:59] Right so who knows but yeah so what were your thoughts Malon? I was sort of thinking about like

[00:07:06] how you would actually do it you know like okay so what would it look like

[00:07:12] yeah in practice you know like would you collapse so okay you have MI6 MI5 GC HQ defense intelligence

[00:07:22] you're not going to get defense intelligence out of the MOD nor do I think should you

[00:07:26] I think it would just be the standard three to civilian run ones rather than the entry one

[00:07:30] or you would just collapse them together but then you have sort of like you have essentially like

[00:07:34] KGB which did it all you know which is not a good comparison that you want I mean I think historically

[00:07:41] that sort of firewall between foreign and domestic intelligence has been sort of centered around

[00:07:47] civil liberties and stuff right yeah yeah but at least that's how it is here in terms of like the FBI

[00:07:52] and the CIA you know but MI5 is not really comparable to the FBI I mean the FBI is a law enforcement

[00:07:59] agency that does a whole lot more than just national security whereas the MMI5 is more just a domestic

[00:08:06] intelligence service yeah yeah because we've got the national crime agency it gets a bit murky because

[00:08:11] you got you had special branch which is sort of turned into I think SO15 now which is due to

[00:08:16] counterterrorism so they have the power to rest because basically as you're saying MI5 are not law

[00:08:20] enforcement they don't have that's over the mess yeah and so MI5 should they be on an operation

[00:08:26] where something's going to be arrested then go with special branch and special branch do the

[00:08:29] arresting and I know there's resentment amongst MI5 and a special branch more on the special

[00:08:34] branch side because the police officers feel like they're treated like gofers for MI5 in probably

[00:08:40] some time so yeah there's a lot of cultural things that will probably need to change a bit over time

[00:08:47] it's also just interesting when you consider like the internal structure of UK and European

[00:08:53] intelligence services are remarkably opaque compared to their US counterparts like we know a lot

[00:09:02] about how the CIA not so much NSA but still we know a lot about how these agencies are organized

[00:09:11] and and how they run and just like just the nuts and bolts of how they work and that's not um I

[00:09:17] don't know I think you would you would sort of most people their first instinct would be to think

[00:09:21] that the Europeans are more sort of open and transparent with their intelligence operations

[00:09:27] and they're not you know no no America seriously is much more open the fact that we have been able

[00:09:33] to interview people and you know our first interview with somebody who worked from my six I have

[00:09:38] to disguise his voice you know that's a big difference big difference yeah just like sure

[00:09:42] surprising to me like like wow you guys are nuts about that Mary does seems like everyone who

[00:09:46] comes out of yeah like everyone come everyone who comes out of the CIA has a has a has a book to write

[00:09:51] yeah yeah it's always a given now isn't it sort of I mean there's that running joke about like

[00:09:56] the Navy seals too you know everyone every one of them has to write a book or you know have some

[00:10:01] sort of brand deal afterwards which you know it definitely isn't that's not a good thing I don't

[00:10:06] I don't think it's that it's just a interesting to the thought how you would how you would do that

[00:10:13] but you don't really have like after 9-11 we have like the office is the director of national

[00:10:18] intelligence was sort of overseas the whole community which was supposed to break apart some

[00:10:23] of the stove piping when the director the CIA was I guess nominally the head of the intelligence

[00:10:27] community you don't really have I mean you have like their joint intelligence committee that's

[00:10:31] under the cabinet office but it's not it's not quite the same that's more like an analytical kind

[00:10:36] of a organization than it is like operational budgetary control that kind of stuff yeah yeah well

[00:10:43] I think I think I think it's supposed to be there to hold the heads of the agencies to account

[00:10:48] should they need to be and it's just there to kind of keep things kosher really I think is

[00:10:53] its main function the CIA station chief is on that committee I believe or least sits in on it

[00:11:00] and observes it's one of the perks of the job yeah well I suppose with that what you're just saying

[00:11:05] now I mean that really just shows that sort of special relationship between Britain and America

[00:11:10] with regards to intelligence I think the whole five eyes thing is still you know taking very

[00:11:15] seriously and and is still you know very important and I think if anything for Britain I think

[00:11:21] the school of thought is that we do we usually do human intelligence very well and we tend to be

[00:11:26] a bit of a reliance on the Americans for technological support because America has bigger budgets than we

[00:11:32] do and I think that's where a lot of that sort of special relationship kind of comes from

[00:11:37] in that sort of signals intelligence enterprise between NSA GCHQ the Canadian Australian

[00:11:44] and New Zealand counterparts it's all kind of just one integrated structure essentially

[00:11:51] you know they're all based at each other's locations and stuff and we covered a story about an

[00:11:56] NSA officer who got into a sort of a domestic issue with the GCHQ in play you know that yeah

[00:12:03] yeah yeah yeah yeah I do the yeah um it was working at uh Cheldenham yeah and then he got radicalized

[00:12:10] suddenly and stuff and yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it's an interesting one that one okay well let's

[00:12:15] let we'll move on to um there's a piece about a rest of a lady named Danila Collette who was arrested

[00:12:20] in Germany for alleged links to the Red Army faction. Collette was in hiding for 30 years and she's

[00:12:26] now 65 years old and she faces charges of attempted murder and serious robberies. A second individual

[00:12:33] who's yet to be identified was also arrested alongside Collette and I think possibly because of

[00:12:37] German law they generally don't name the suspect other than I think it's there is it the second

[00:12:42] initial they use. Is there I think they give the first initial of the surname yeah that's it so

[00:12:49] being like Bob F or something like that you know yeah yeah so we might find out whoever that person

[00:12:56] is but with Collette because she's a well known fugitive I guess um it bypasses that rule maybe

[00:13:02] I don't know I don't know uh but anyway the Red Army faction or the RAF uh not the Royal Air Force

[00:13:08] they were a far left armed group that terrorized Germany for decade and they were responsible for

[00:13:13] numerous violence acts targeting political figures and business leaders. They were active

[00:13:18] between 1971 and 1993 and their alleged crimes included bombings assassinations and attacks on

[00:13:26] government institutions resulting in 34 deaths and over 200 injuries over their time. Daniela

[00:13:32] Collette was accused of belonging to the RAF's third generation who were active in the 1980s to

[00:13:37] the very early 1990s and they carried out high profile attacks including the assassination

[00:13:43] of the Deutsche Bank Chairman and a center left politician. Traces of Collette's DNA were actually

[00:13:48] found at the site of a gun attack on the US Embassy in Bonn in 1991 and her DNA has also been linked to

[00:13:55] more recent robbery in 2016 when she and some former RAF associates allegedly tried to

[00:14:04] rob an armed vehicle that uh that attack was well that robbery was not successful. So yeah so she's

[00:14:10] a very interesting interesting person there who managed to evade detection of the 30 years so uh

[00:14:16] yeah man do you have any thoughts on on that one? I think being on the run in Germany for that long

[00:14:21] is quite a feat you know and it's almost as curious that she wouldn't have

[00:14:26] fledged Germany to say like Russia or Syria or some socialist country in Latin America you

[00:14:33] know where she could have just been gone and sort of had that numb because that you know that's

[00:14:37] the red army faction is a classical leftist terrorist organization and you know would

[00:14:44] still be seen quite sympathetically by a number of countries. Well yeah and people on the very

[00:14:50] very far left of politics that annexation stuff would be like are there heroes and stuff to

[00:14:55] try to take down capitalism basically. Yeah yeah that's yeah that was my biggest thing to

[00:15:00] surprise to see her in Germany still after all this time and how she manages to stay here on the run

[00:15:05] well yeah especially in this day and age I mean my thoughts on that because I was thinking at two

[00:15:09] I mean like one one thing I've learned from watching a ridiculous amount of true crime shows is

[00:15:15] apparently nine times out of ten most long term fugitives do live in close proximity to where

[00:15:22] they live previously and that's somehow either it's the familiarity of the area helps them have

[00:15:27] aid detection or all the authorities after a while just give up on that area and move and look

[00:15:33] elsewhere. It's an interesting one that one but it's quite common actually that the suspect will

[00:15:37] be found quite near when they used to live now I wonder as well like she may have because in in

[00:15:42] Europe you've got the whole Shengen agreement you can skip the board about being challenged so it

[00:15:47] might be she skipped the border for a while and then came back when she may have laid you know went

[00:15:52] off to some other place for quite a few years and then slowly slip back especially just getting older

[00:15:57] maybe she was sort of reminisce a little bit about her hometown or something. I don't know

[00:16:02] going a bit there but yeah it's interesting like she could have gone to Cuba and had a very good life

[00:16:10] and still would have had a good life. Yeah of course then there's how do you get there but I don't

[00:16:16] wish he could have I mean she probably could have done back in the 90s it would have been easier

[00:16:21] to get a fake ID that would still work because now all of its connected to DNA by yeah biometrics

[00:16:27] and stuff so it's much harder and but at least with I mean as with Europe you could do a little very

[00:16:33] long road trip to certain points and then take a boat somewhere I guess did a reverse of

[00:16:38] but then you have to go through some dodgy war zones to kind of get to some it'd be quite difficult

[00:16:42] but I think in the 90s it would have been a lot easier maybe she even did do that and came back

[00:16:46] it could be you know might be she came back we'll find out more I'm sure as the trial kicks off

[00:16:50] at some point but the other the other thing about Red Army faction I was going to add was um you know

[00:16:56] it was sort of uh it was believed to be run by East German intelligence and a proxy for the KGB

[00:17:03] to create instability in the West or in West Germany and it was interesting that Red Army faction

[00:17:08] and other leftist terrorist groups sort of collapsed after the Soviet Union collapsed and uh

[00:17:14] and certainly as well some Middle Eastern terrorist groups sort of folded up and so on when

[00:17:18] the Soviet Union collapsed well the Palestinian more the Palestinian groups up until hummus and

[00:17:23] when the Iranians came in they were all classical leftist terrorist organizations they weren't

[00:17:28] they weren't uh religiously ideological no no no indeed and quite a few of them sort of fell apart

[00:17:34] or forced to the peace table or attempted to after the lack of Soviet financing so yeah I don't

[00:17:41] see the Red Army faction itself coming back but I am sort of fearful that the environment were in

[00:17:46] now political social division and rising inequality and growing popularity of anti-capitalist talking

[00:17:53] points and also to that fascist talking points that we may at some point see a far leftist group

[00:18:00] like the Red Army faction come to life in Europe so yeah I was uh that one really intrigued me

[00:18:07] and thought I'd bring it up because I've always found um far leftist terrorism quite an interesting

[00:18:11] topic that we just I haven't done enough on it a lot of sadly a lot of the books are by authors

[00:18:16] you've passed on because it was a long time ago that it was a kind of interesting a fashionable

[00:18:19] topic and also sadly as well when it comes to far left terrorism it tends to attract very right

[00:18:25] wing authors who then use it as a way to tarnish all left wing ideology and so on and so it's

[00:18:34] there they're very few really reliable narrators on left wing terrorism that you could really say

[00:18:39] we're objective about it but there we go so uh but yeah any recommendations I'm obviously happy

[00:18:45] to take them so there's anybody surviving authors out there who want to talk to you about the

[00:18:49] Red Army faction and stuff and who can speak English as well because it's a German topic um I'd

[00:18:54] love to chat with them about that but there we go uh should we move on yeah it's a good segue to

[00:18:58] the next one if you want to do that well yeah so the next one kind of links straight into my fears

[00:19:03] here because we've had a uh a terrorism story in the UK that's been linked to far left ideology

[00:19:08] I'm gonna use an article title uh left wing anarchist guilty of terror offenses after declaring he

[00:19:14] wants to kill 50 people which is from sky news and so this 20 odd man named Jacob Graham from

[00:19:21] Liverpool has been found guilty of preparing acts of terrorism by creating and disseminating

[00:19:26] a bomb making manual title the freedom in cyclopedia despite being acquitted of planning specific

[00:19:33] terrorist attacks Graham was convicted for his involvement in compiling terrorist publications

[00:19:39] and possessing documents useful for terrorism Graham's manual dedicated to terrorist past and

[00:19:45] future contained instructions on creating explosives and evading law enforcement so I'm sure it's

[00:19:50] quite good bedtime reading and he was allegedly motivated by anarchist ideologies and a desire

[00:19:57] to combat what he perceived as government oppression and Graham expressed intentions to target

[00:20:02] government buildings and politicians residences aiming to cause significant harm Graham idolized

[00:20:08] Theodore Kaczynski known as the unibomber and sought to emulate his acts of violence against

[00:20:13] societal structures through video diaries and online communications Graham expressed disdain for

[00:20:19] government control ecological concerns and support for radical leftist ideologies positioning himself

[00:20:24] as a revolutionary figure apparently he utilized platforms like discord and telegram and he engaged

[00:20:30] with like-minded individuals and groups advocating for anti-government sentiments and violent actions

[00:20:36] he shared his bomb making manual online and stored a collection of terrorist publications

[00:20:41] fostering a network of individuals sharing his extremist views apparently Graham conducted

[00:20:47] experiments with chemicals purchased online bearing some in the woodlands in a hideout for future use

[00:20:53] and upon his arrest a cache of chemicals capable producing explosive mixtures were found prompting

[00:20:59] concerns about his preparations for potential violent acts and a desire for societal collapse so

[00:21:06] yeah an interesting one that one is it over what your thoughts where I'll save mine so you said

[00:21:11] yours yeah a couple of things here first thing that I found interesting was his plans to produce

[00:21:16] a 3d printed assault rifle which is certainly interesting considering the UK's strict gun laws

[00:21:22] compared to ours where you could just go out and just buy an AR-15 and so I think you know

[00:21:26] would that have with the barrier to entry for him to operationalizing some plan is that

[00:21:33] would that be a lot lower in the US and it would be in the UK you know what I mean you don't have

[00:21:38] to have trouble if you could just go to warm up yeah yeah yeah and some states yeah you just walk

[00:21:43] into Walmart and buy one which is crazy but anyway the other thing that I found interesting was

[00:21:48] he was apparently inspired by a Netflix documentary about Ted Kaczynski the Unibomber was it

[00:21:53] documentary the drama because there's a really good there was a really good drama called man hunt

[00:21:57] unibomber oh yes that's what it was that was really good the Netflix okay doggie series of show

[00:22:03] fictionalized show about yeah yeah yeah about that which is sort of I don't know like you could see

[00:22:07] I'm not saying that we shouldn't have programs like this or anything I mean I'm arguably kind

[00:22:12] of making one myself with it I have these very same concerns about it but you know could you see

[00:22:19] like a young person on who as far right sort of ideology see a documentary or a show about

[00:22:26] like Timothy McVeigh and that's how they discover it you know yeah yeah I think the problem I think

[00:22:32] from a psychology point of view I think those kind of people have a predisposition to do something

[00:22:37] so they would literally find anything then would then make them go to the next level if you know

[00:22:44] yeah but to your point even yeah or just say to your point then also that you were talking about

[00:22:49] this in the in the last segment about how I don't know far left terrorism has had historically

[00:22:56] waned a bit since the collapse of the Soviet Union but I think I mean there's a lot of

[00:23:02] reasons to suspect that it may get our resurgence now I'm thinking of like the war and Gaza

[00:23:08] and how that's been received among progressives especially young people in the West not saying

[00:23:15] that everyone who has an issue with Israel's conduct in the war is destined to you know blow up a

[00:23:21] building or something but that is certainly people have done it in the past that profound sort of rage

[00:23:28] and outrage is is in the bloodstream now um and that definitely has has consequences in the extreme

[00:23:36] you know like do you think also like a lot of the issues we're having around

[00:23:41] tech and the coming AI revolution and it's sort of economic and societal consequences

[00:23:46] it makes a ripe environment for radicalization you know like okay uh there was a story here

[00:23:53] recently that like Wendy's the fast food chain um was sort of like exploring the possibility of

[00:23:59] doing dynamic pricing on their menu you know so like okay if there's a time that it's seen that

[00:24:05] you know there's a lot of people who want to buy like a baconator like bacon cheeseburger

[00:24:10] that the prices will go up based on the demand which like I yes I mean okay dynamic pricing

[00:24:20] for a hotel room a plane ticket a concert ticket and Uber I see that but like just doing that

[00:24:27] kind of capitalism for a fucking burger just because you can is the kind of stuff that leads most

[00:24:34] people to think maybe we should get out the guillotine's you know yeah it's that kind of

[00:24:41] that kind of just rampant fuck you I got mine you're gonna suffer capitalism that leads

[00:24:49] that makes that kind of stuff that this guy was arrested for very attractive to people

[00:24:55] you remind me of some Anthony Bourdain once said about the show Man v Food because when he was

[00:24:59] in the Middle East and and in third world countries Man v Food was constantly on in a place where

[00:25:05] people are starving and they took that show as representative of ordinary Americans and so they

[00:25:10] thought all Americans were just acting like the man on Man v Food and it suddenly you know made all

[00:25:16] Americans could have actually say greedian gross in that context not I'm saying Adam Richards

[00:25:20] greedy gross but but the the show is sort of um about these sort of competitions about how much

[00:25:25] food you can eat stuff so it's a bit distasteful and if you're in like Ethiopia or something where

[00:25:30] there's like a famine yeah I think Man v Food is the last thing that you're gonna want to see on

[00:25:35] television and if you're angry you might start to resent it so it's interesting how these sort of

[00:25:40] things can do that I think you know Anthony Bourdain didn't mean this word he said this is like

[00:25:45] a recruitment tool for Al Qaeda or something right he's right yeah yeah so as you say about

[00:25:51] this dynamic pricing yeah it's gonna when people are starving and they're suddenly seeing like

[00:25:57] companies profiting off it but it's not with the energy crisis over here some our prices have

[00:26:01] gone up quite dramatically in the UK and the reason we were told they've got up is because energy

[00:26:07] demand energy you know the energy crisis across Europe and stuff makes energy demand harder to

[00:26:15] cater for hence why it's more expensive yet these companies are making an massive profit and it's

[00:26:21] like something's not compusing there because we only reason supposed to be paying more money

[00:26:25] is because it's hard as a get yet you're posting record profit so something's gone wrong somewhere

[00:26:30] you know and and so put that times a thousand with the AI thing and suddenly joblessness and 40

[00:26:36] percent of jobs disappearing I can see a lot of instability coming and a lot of people from

[00:26:41] different factions won't do something about it but yeah I mean that's also like I mean we've had

[00:26:46] the same issues here you know we're around like inflation you know sort of started coming back

[00:26:52] online after covid which if you consider like okay we're coming out of a once in a century trauma

[00:26:58] and disruption that no one alive has ever dealt with before ever experienced right like yeah

[00:27:03] things are gonna be kind of weird and wacky it's gonna take us a bit to get back to normal you know

[00:27:08] and I think in many ways there just was a lot of impatience around that right but and yes inflation

[00:27:13] was an issue for a bit still continues to be in some regard prices are going down like just

[00:27:20] you look at the numbers like they are but in many respects they haven't gone down as quickly as

[00:27:26] they should because companies just don't just keep prices higher and just use inflation as an excuse

[00:27:32] to do so yeah just to gouge people and that's yet to the point about you know Wendy's was looking at

[00:27:38] doing that with our menu just doing that with food with a burger simply because you can is just like

[00:27:45] that's something to that's something to me that I'm just like that's that's that's insane like if

[00:27:51] you do that you are morally rotten to the core and I don't know there's a part of me that thinks

[00:27:56] yeah something bad happens to you because of that like you asked for it and what was that burger

[00:28:02] you mentioned it's called the baconator what the kind of names that is really weird that's an American name

[00:28:06] right there Chris that's America is it like the terminated meets Baker this week it's um it's

[00:28:16] uh what's I'm not the type to eat a baconator but I think it's like a double bacon cheeseburger so

[00:28:24] like two patties with a whole bunch of bacon and cheese it's um I don't know when you're over here

[00:28:29] I will take you to get a baconator and you can a baconator and one of those massive 24 ounce

[00:28:35] coffee that I had that one day that you can get past the the Pedro Pascale Cup yeah yeah well um

[00:28:43] Wendy's is opened in the UK I haven't been to one and I have no idea whether the baconator's

[00:28:48] available over here but I'll take you off of your offer come to the inside if they have if they

[00:28:52] have a yeah yeah yeah yeah well I'm hope I'm gonna try and sort out at East Coast trip in the next

[00:28:58] 18 months just either because I've got a trip to New Zealand coming up I need to pay for first but

[00:29:03] but I'm hoping to come East Coast uh at some point mid next year because I want to I need to go to

[00:29:08] Bolsmore and you're gonna DC and stuff that'd be good to yeah definitely meet up in person have a baconator

[00:29:13] yes um about this this case for a moment so one of the things that sort of I always find

[00:29:20] interesting and surprising but it's not uncommon either is that you find out I don't know your

[00:29:25] son or daughter living in your house upstairs is plotting some terrible thing and they've

[00:29:29] built bombs that have collected an ask of weapons and yet nobody in the family is aware of this

[00:29:35] and I always find that a bit mind-boggling and I know recently there was a mass shooting in the

[00:29:39] states where the mother has been convicted of like involuntary manslaughter because it was felt

[00:29:45] that she could have prevented her son from going on a mass shooting and I can't remember where

[00:29:49] that was but I there was no higher I believe yeah yeah and I think it was a higher higher Michigan

[00:29:55] yeah yeah and I don't know that enough of the details of this case to really pass any proper

[00:30:00] judgment on the family of John Jacob Graham I don't know but um I did want I did sort of want

[00:30:06] to understand like just generally how is it possible that somebody like this could go undetected

[00:30:13] in the family home because he lived with his mother his sister and his mother's partner and so

[00:30:18] it could be a multitude of reasons ranging from parents thinking it's a phase being ignorant or

[00:30:23] uncairing as the view their kids they might just ignore them there's also an element where

[00:30:29] there could be denial on the parent side thinking that their son also couldn't do something terrible

[00:30:34] yeah Timmy has weird views but they're just weird views right no Timmy is about to go and shoot up

[00:30:40] a mall so um so there's a lot of sort of factors there and also with the whole with this Jacob Graham

[00:30:45] I do wonder like with a lot of lone wolf because he's sort of getting into that lone wolf category

[00:30:51] because he didn't operate for a prescribed terrorist organization as far as we know a lot of the time

[00:30:56] these individuals are disaffected and not happy in their life and you know and he definitely comes

[00:31:02] across as that kind of person and yeah still at 20 years old living with his parents and stuff which

[00:31:08] is a very common thing these days but it isn't fun I live with my dad to us like look 20 got 31

[00:31:14] a thing it wasn't great at all you know and yeah and it was you know there are many times you like

[00:31:20] think shit I should be doing better than this and stuff like that so you do go through all sorts of

[00:31:25] um kind of esteem issues and so on and so forth and then on top of that if your parents resent

[00:31:30] the fact you still that they're that can add difficulties as well bit like that do you remember the

[00:31:33] beheading incident that we talked about in the last episode yeah and Petalini was connected to a

[00:31:38] potential family route a rouse and it which led to the guy beheading his dad you know but one thing

[00:31:44] I think I do want to bring up so the signs of there's a I want to look at what are the signs of

[00:31:48] radicalisation because I think a lot of I've got this feeling that a lot of people a lot of parents

[00:31:53] in particular not aware of the signs of radicalisation and so I was I went to the NSPCC website which

[00:31:59] is a British charity that's um so it's basically a charity against protection against child cruelty

[00:32:05] and I wanted to go onto the I went onto their website to find um the signs spotting the signs of

[00:32:10] radicalisation so I'm going to read them out a minute um this is from the NSPCC website so radicalisation

[00:32:16] can be difficult to spot and signs that may indicate a child is being radicalised include

[00:32:22] isolating themselves from friends and family talking as if from a scripted speech unwillingness

[00:32:29] or inability to discuss their views a sudden disrespectful attitude towards others

[00:32:36] increased levels of anger increased secretiveness especially around the use of the internet

[00:32:43] so they add children who at risk of radicalisation may have low self-esteem or be victims of bullying

[00:32:49] or discriminations extremists might target them and tell them they could be part of something

[00:32:55] special later brainwashing them into cutting themselves off from their friends and family however

[00:33:01] the signs mentioned above don't necessarily mean a child is being radicalised it may be normal

[00:33:07] teenage behaviour and a sign of something else is wrong so it's good to bear all those points in

[00:33:13] mind because obviously secretive news around the internet teenagers that could be to do a porn you know

[00:33:18] or and when there's irritability it's inability to discuss their views well maybe they're just not

[00:33:23] in the mood you know there is that but I think a lot of parents just if they see these sort of things

[00:33:28] happening it's just a good idea to have a chat with your teenage door for a son and just check in on

[00:33:33] them to make sure everything's okay because you know because I just think if this maybe like two or

[00:33:38] more of these points on that list that you can tick off might be worth just checking in on them to

[00:33:43] check that they're all right because you don't want your you know because there's so much

[00:33:48] extremist content on the internet you can get so easily now and like as with my own experiences

[00:33:52] or being a conspiracy theorist myself is very easy to go down this rabbit hole it starts off quite

[00:33:58] harmless but in some cases as we've seen it can become very serious and I know of people who

[00:34:03] he has a guy who was a conspiracy theorist for 18 years and finally came out of the you know so

[00:34:10] and he's like in his mid 40s now there's a big part of his life is sort of wasted on conspiracy theories

[00:34:16] and things and you know it is very easy to get radicalized on the internet if you're not careful

[00:34:23] especially when you're you know being a teenager is difficult you know especially in today's world

[00:34:27] in today's economy you know China especially when you leave you know it's two points when you

[00:34:31] leaving schools or three points leaving school leaving senior high which is six form college and

[00:34:38] in the UK and then leaving university and those three points depending on what level you're at

[00:34:43] you're you're going into the workplace at some point leaving one of those points and try to go into

[00:34:50] the workplace today and try and pursue something that you want to do is very tough very tough much harder

[00:34:56] than probably it was 30 or 40 years ago and and and so you know like especially

[00:35:02] living home with your parents and stuff and then steam comes into things you know you've got to

[00:35:06] bear those things in mind that can lead to people turning to things and they're a bad for them so

[00:35:13] yeah that's my PSA for the day but I just thought it was worth bringing that up but I would like

[00:35:19] to some point I do want to do an episode about the signs of radicalization I'm just trying to work out

[00:35:23] who the best persons or person to talk to about that because I have had the guys from prevent on

[00:35:31] the past I would happily have them on again because I think they're decent guys and doing good work but

[00:35:34] I do know there's this sort of very toxic debate around prevent that might get in the way of the

[00:35:40] content of what they're saying so if anybody listing has recommendations that could lead to an

[00:35:47] episode about the signs of radicalization because I just think I think there's a lot of parents

[00:35:51] who just not wear that their kids can get radicalized on the internet you know and then just not

[00:35:58] aware of what their kids are looking out on the internet these days failure of imagination you know

[00:36:02] do you have to look at it's even possible yeah I know I know but then there's a lot of parents out

[00:36:06] there today who have very hand to mouth as well you know and so kids can get left their own devices

[00:36:13] and also their parents don't really understand technology you know they don't I mean maybe that's

[00:36:18] less of a case these days but my dad you know what was when I was in my early 20s my dad wasn't

[00:36:24] I mean he was he was sort of crude up technology but he wasn't clued up on the internet and stuff

[00:36:28] so it was like you know yeah yeah it's sort of a funny one really but yeah so maybe maybe

[00:36:33] the people in the 20s now maybe their parents are a bit more clued up on it I don't know but

[00:36:37] there's maybe I think maybe people are not aware of the access you can get easily and how parental

[00:36:43] controls are almost useless now aren't they yeah I don't how kids get around some things like

[00:36:50] they're they're going to find a way you know and so yeah so they're watching so usually

[00:36:56] enemies are either watching pornography or they're looking at beheading videos or something you know

[00:37:02] it's like we're both or both you know and and so that's quite a dodgy cocktail that I've

[00:37:07] painted right there but yeah so just you know parental controls can easily be subverted these days

[00:37:13] so it's and also people I think teenagers share a lot of stuff through you know private messaging I

[00:37:19] mean you know you've seen sexting and all sorts of stuff happens and they're yeah and as this guy

[00:37:25] went on was it telegram I forgot what I said now discord and telegram those sort of apps

[00:37:29] allow for private sharing and stuff you can share all sorts of stuff they're even on Instagram

[00:37:33] you can see stuff that's pretty dodgy I think back to you you talked about like what kids now

[00:37:38] were sort of exposed to or are just dealing with online and stuff they have access to 24 hours a day

[00:37:45] like I was in high school and like the infancy of social media right and like the iPhone came out my

[00:37:51] senior year of of high school I didn't have a cell phone until I was probably about 16 17 which

[00:37:58] was which was late I was I was late to get a cell phone but now like you have like like five

[00:38:03] five-year-old six girls with with cell phones which is with it's insane to me and that can do

[00:38:09] a whole lot more than the cell phone that I had when I was in high school you know like yeah we had

[00:38:14] social media but it wasn't it wasn't in our pockets all day long you know like we didn't have access

[00:38:21] to it until we went home and logged in at the end of the day you know into my space or Facebook

[00:38:25] or something and I think like if we had cameras high quality cameras in our pockets and

[00:38:34] and just the means to distribute it and to just I don't know all the stuff that you can do on

[00:38:39] it on a smartphone on a tablet on social media today if we had that stuff when I was their age

[00:38:44] like in middle school and stuff like I can't imagine some of the shit that would have gone down

[00:38:50] if we had the means to do it you know embarrassing photo could go around the entire school in

[00:38:54] seconds you know yeah yeah and just not like not knowing any better you know and they don't

[00:39:01] they don't they don't know any better they don't they don't they don't realize what they're doing

[00:39:04] no well I don't know this is me becoming a conversion but I just know seeing parents and adults

[00:39:09] are getting less are telling children they're not giving as much guidance on what you shouldn't

[00:39:14] shouldn't do anymore I mean maybe I'm just being a conversion here but I just sometimes find

[00:39:17] it's more an attitude of just let them get on with it and as long as they don't hurt themselves

[00:39:21] it's okay yeah yeah it could be wrong on that but it just feels that way sometimes you know especially

[00:39:25] seeing people let their kids run loose in public spaces which my parents would never have allowed

[00:39:30] me to do but maybe there's a generational thing I don't know but just yeah yeah I only had my

[00:39:36] airspeed me too or the classic as she's walking down a pavement and like there's your own

[00:39:42] and then there's a you know two adults and a kid or one adult and two kids and somebody's going

[00:39:48] to have to move out the way to let you through and they don't and the parents say nothing and

[00:39:52] I'm like my parents would have made a hell of a thing about that so anyway there's me becoming an

[00:39:56] old man there but I'll take my flat cap off and leave that subject to another time but yeah I

[00:40:03] just think you know there was so much people are exposed to today from all over the world you

[00:40:09] know because I think it's the other thing I mentioned to some former conspiracy theorist friends

[00:40:14] occasionally they don't realize that they're they're being targeted by foreign propaganda that wants

[00:40:19] to undermine your support for your own country for them there's a bit of a mind blowing thing

[00:40:24] that they don't always believe it but they kind of like sometimes it does sort of throw a few of them

[00:40:29] like whoa that exists well I think we're at a I think we're at a point now where a person could

[00:40:37] willingly sort of accept and like know with foreign propaganda and fully accepted and agree with

[00:40:44] it because they've accepted the viewpoint that like that's correct like Russia you know this

[00:40:50] conservative white Christian nation they're right like yes I know with Russian propaganda and

[00:40:55] I think they're right you know so you you sort of lost that like do you know the logical brain

[00:41:01] that you're I don't know the blue hair they then barista is a bigger threat than the Russian military

[00:41:09] you know yeah it's a weird one but there we go is there anything else I want to add to this one or should

[00:41:16] we move on jump ahead to the spy ship right yes so yeah you picked a great piece about the cyber

[00:41:24] attack on an Iranian spy ship so yeah tell us about that yes this is a cool story here

[00:41:30] uh it's called the article we're using is called the US conducted cyber attack on suspected

[00:41:34] Iranian spy ship and it's from NBC news so the US conducted a cyber attack on Iranian military

[00:41:40] ship suspected of collecting intelligence on cargo vessels in the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden

[00:41:46] the operation aimed to disrupt the ship's ability to share intelligence with Houthi rebels

[00:41:50] attacking cargo ships in the Red Sea it was part of the Biden administration's response to an

[00:41:54] Iranian-backed drone attack in Iraq they killed three US service members and wounded many others

[00:41:59] the ship targeted was reportedly the envy bishad though its name was not officially disclosed by

[00:42:04] US officials irons u.n. ambassador denied the accusations stating the ship was combating

[00:42:09] piracy and not aiding kuthi forces okay sure uh the bishad has been operating near near jibbuti

[00:42:16] close to a chinese military base possibly as a deterrent against us naval action Houthi attacks since

[00:42:21] November have led shipping companies like murk to pause operations in the Red Sea and the Gulf of

[00:42:27] Aden the houthi rebels supported by iran vowed to continue attacks until israel halts its military

[00:42:31] operations in gaza present Biden's response to the attack on us soldiers included airstrikes in

[00:42:36] Iraq and Syria cyber operations and targeting Iranian-backed militants despite US retaliation

[00:42:43] Iran continues to provide support to its proxies in the region as it is want to do to do yeah well

[00:42:49] I want to first heard about the cyber attack my response was good um it's been multiple comments from

[00:42:55] former intelligence officers and naval observers about this Iranian spy ship and the consensus has

[00:43:00] largely been that the ship should be disabled now i think most of them probably sidelined on the

[00:43:05] idea it should be sunk and I'm assuming this cyber attack is maybe just designed to cause a short

[00:43:10] term disruption and to send a message to taran that the US have the capability to target the ship

[00:43:16] and next time it might be a missile or a torpedo rather than a cyber attack um that's

[00:43:22] speculating but I wonder if that's the case because i think i think a Biden's again cautious to

[00:43:27] escalate too far the run um and doesn't want to necessarily sink the ships they've got option B

[00:43:33] that's still effective but and sends a signal that might be what they've done and i think we said

[00:43:38] one of our previous episodes these these air strikes against the houthis all well and good but really

[00:43:44] the ability for the houthis to target and attack ships needs to be addressed that means destroying

[00:43:49] all electronic targeting systems and disrupting ammunition supplies because if the houthis no longer

[00:43:54] have rockets or targeting systems then their threat is largely gone um so yeah uh so i think sorting out

[00:44:02] that ship it is providing what it is providing um targeting information for the houthis to use

[00:44:09] for them to then you know target a particular cargo ship it's not only putting the lice of the

[00:44:15] crews of the cargo ships at risk is also putting the lice of those trying to defend those cargo

[00:44:20] ships at risk as well so and those are personnel from you know our home countries so yeah it's uh

[00:44:27] i think that spy ship is um a menace and uh sooner or later it needs to be sorted out well i think

[00:44:33] that that stood out to me is it's just it's it's rare to see details on specific tactical offensive

[00:44:39] cyber operations you know i mean the dod doesn't um really doesn't comment on them at all like

[00:44:47] it's very little of what happens inside us cyber command or or within the nsa is just closed so yeah

[00:44:54] it's it's rare to see something specific i mean i think it was sort of it was wise to believe

[00:45:01] at the time of our retaliation for tower 22 which was the attack in jordan that killed

[00:45:05] yeah three us air as members wise to include that their response included things other than just

[00:45:12] those airstrikes you know there could have been i mean yeah we we know about this cyber attack on

[00:45:17] this specific spy ship there could have been others on uh errone in units in the middle east

[00:45:23] even inside errone itself uh that that we still don't know about yeah that's entirely possible

[00:45:29] I think it's probably likely that that that is the case you know when you saw a few days after

[00:45:34] the airstrikes there was a leader of uh cuts up his bala uh one of the bigger um errone and backed

[00:45:41] militias in arachans area i believe the guy was heading up there kind of aircraft drone division

[00:45:48] he was killed in a drone strike and Baghdad uh it's one of those um one of those missiles with

[00:45:54] the blades that come out you know oh yes yes yes i thought it wasn't in the cover but it's called

[00:45:58] but i know exactly what he made like the ninja kind of things right yeah because he doesn't have an

[00:46:02] explosive does it so he's the blaze for people and and the energy yeah it was one of those that

[00:46:07] hit the car like in rush hour traffic and damaged nothing else other than just that car um and i

[00:46:14] think since then i haven't i didn't ask philip if this is entirely i as far as i know there's only

[00:46:22] been since those airstrikes i mean yes the houthis have continued what they're doing in the red sea

[00:46:29] but as far as the pmf which is you know the coalition of militias throughout iraqan

[00:46:32] Syria that were responsible for tower 22 as far as i know there was only on february fourth

[00:46:39] there was an attack on a training ground run by the Syrian democratic forces which are allied with us

[00:46:46] or us forces are present uh there was an attack there but since then i don't believe there have been

[00:46:53] any others so in a way it can it kind of worked you know uh this yeah they stopped strike stop

[00:47:00] well there we go yeah that's good that's good well let's let's hope they don't resume but yeah

[00:47:05] yeah good to tell you say well this is sad thing sad reality which i think some people forget is

[00:47:11] rules do have to be enforced once in a while and um to do it sometimes requires actions that

[00:47:19] you know um aren't necessarily the nicest but they're the only ones that can cut through so

[00:47:25] yeah i mean the houthis are a different issue well not entirely different but they're

[00:47:29] they're it's it's more complicated than that but yeah as far as i've been able to glean um

[00:47:35] the the militias have largely got the message and they and they back down and we did it uh without

[00:47:41] a massive regional war with the iranians yeah yeah which is a good thing so yeah

[00:47:46] yes lessons to be learned from that that was the idea going into it yeah yeah indeed indeed with

[00:47:53] it i mean america lasting america wants isn't to get bogged down in another middle eastern war

[00:47:58] you know Biden was against quite a lot of the escalations in afghanistan was need during this time

[00:48:04] as vice president yeah um i think he almost he felt so strongly that the us should get out of

[00:48:10] afghanistan during the Obama administration that i believe you almost resigned as vice president

[00:48:15] wow wow so yeah so he's very you know he's i think the last person is going to want a start of war

[00:48:21] in the middle east um and it's kind of kind of what you want from a president really kind of

[00:48:24] want a president i think this is where you know the kind of the proportionate response model uh

[00:48:31] is better than the full-blown war on terror model because soon he started occupying countries

[00:48:37] and regions you become the villain whilst if you can kind of just do a very targeted sort of

[00:48:41] specific strike against um i don't know terrorist acts or facility why that's a better thing in the

[00:48:47] long run because they could have there were there were even options to during the clinton

[00:48:51] administration to kill bin Laden but the clinton administration was worried about the legality of it

[00:48:56] but if they killed him we might not have had nine eleven might have had the war in terror can

[00:49:00] you imagine it you know imagine it sometimes you know taking out one person can save a whole lot of

[00:49:06] pain on a massive scale i mean wouldn't that be a really interesting parallel universe to explore

[00:49:11] what would have happened it'd been a lot that'd been killed in 1998 or something you know i would

[00:49:15] love to see that parallel universe i think might be more pleasant than the one we're currently in

[00:49:19] you would have been a lot better than the reality we have yeah maybe something else terrible would

[00:49:24] happen who knows yeah you never know you never asked a thing usually usually there is something else

[00:49:29] but there we go yeah well um that's a lovely chewy note to finish on but uh Matt are you up to

[00:49:34] anything exciting in the over the week ahead or uh i'm doing some editing for this for this podcast

[00:49:42] there's a interview with um garic graph that i did uh the other week on his book on the uh

[00:49:49] US government's efforts to investigate UFO sightings you know that kind of thing um not not a

[00:49:56] conspiracy theorist kind of book it's uh you know just kind of rigid and this is the fact is the

[00:50:01] history of how it happened same as with the area 51 interview that we did yeah um yeah yes that should

[00:50:06] be out in the next couple weeks or so you know cool and i think he's quite good friends of Shane

[00:50:11] Harris i think i've seen his photos of Shane's Instagram um of the booklaunch yeah yeah yeah

[00:50:17] garrets are pretty um pretty well known investigative national security reporter he's written books on

[00:50:23] 9-11 um US continuity of government planning which is where a garret and i first sort of corresponded

[00:50:29] over his efforts on that stuff and you know my research as far as the novels are concerned along

[00:50:34] those lines uh he wrote a sort of a definitive history of watergate um that was a Pulitzer finalist

[00:50:41] he did uh he did a limited podcast series on the American far right which i wanted to get him

[00:50:47] on here to talk about and then um i saw this book on on UFOs he was doing what's coming out so we did

[00:50:53] we did that instead yeah but uh yeah it'll be um interesting interview we talk about um

[00:50:58] lot of cool stuff in there thanks a lot oh look forward to hearing that yeah i mean i've got my

[00:51:02] interview with Charles Burman to come out soon it's just in post at the moment i've got a

[00:51:06] disguises voice and Charles Burman's not his real name either um so so this is the fun of being

[00:51:12] a former MI6 officer and that's how you can talk publicly uh just about um and so i thought

[00:51:18] into quite interesting it just sort of goes into the some of the reality behind his novel

[00:51:23] and yeah i'm just sort of looking into other topics so actually some news some personal issues

[00:51:29] so um i've got a new podcast starting um about a tv show used to love called homicide life on

[00:51:37] the street so the podcast called homicide life on the set um and we're due to release next Thursday

[00:51:42] it all goes according to plan we're just waiting on a thumbs up from someone and we've had some

[00:51:47] really interesting guests we've had Tom Fontana um who was the show's show runner um and he's

[00:51:53] i believe he's one M.E.'s he's certainly a very well established writer and producer who did

[00:51:58] send elsewhere homicide as muncia spade which is out in the moment with Clive Owen um and other

[00:52:05] stuff and then uh we've had Carl C.Core who was the one of the stars of the show um and if you

[00:52:12] are interested in guest too so i'm hoping uh it's a monthly podcast and just sort of going into

[00:52:17] the the making of that show and uh i really loved homicide of it's always been quite a profound

[00:52:23] show which is quite rare for tv a lot of the time these days to get something that's profound but

[00:52:28] especially as a crime procedural kind of thing it was a very different kind of cop show and it was kind of

[00:52:33] you know uh about the nature of life and death as you investigate death so i quite like that um

[00:52:39] so yeah that'll be out soon so that's what i've been tinkering on for a little bit so thank you

[00:52:44] for joining me today mate i think we've tried our best to put the worlds to right um i hope we've

[00:52:50] not um upset anybody because i never never intentioned anyone to upset anybody it's uh it just

[00:52:54] you know is such a especially the gals atop it's just so difficult to navigate um and sometimes

[00:53:00] it's just hard to find the right words to say and usually when we've released an episode you think

[00:53:04] actually i'm gonna put that out of bed away but you know sometimes there isn't sometimes especially

[00:53:09] with this issue there's just nothing you can say i mean whatever you say someone's gonna take

[00:53:16] it out of context or or you know take what you didn't say and then draw like the the most extreme

[00:53:23] kind of extrapolation from that yeah yeah yeah if you don't mention oranges you must be an orange

[00:53:29] hater or something yeah yeah i don't know so you do the best you can yeah indeed indeed well thank

[00:53:36] you everybody for listening i hope you all have a lovely weekend and look after cells and we'll be

[00:53:40] back in a couple of weeks with um two more episodes for you and uh and some more exciting interviews

[00:53:46] coming up so thank you for your support we really do appreciate it we've got some new new

[00:53:51] followers and new patreon subscribers you've joined us so thank you very much and uh we will catch

[00:53:57] you on the next one thank you man bye guys