[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Due to the themes of this podcast, listener discretion is advised.

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Lock your doors, close the blinds, change your passwords.

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: This is Secrets and Spies.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Secrets and Spies is a podcast that dives into the world of espionage, terrorism, geopolitics,

[00:00:32] [SPEAKER_00]: and intrigue.

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_00]: This episode is presented by Matt Fulton and produced by Chris Carr.

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello everyone and welcome back to Secrets and Spies.

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Chris and I are still taking some time off and eagerly preparing for the next season

[00:00:45] [SPEAKER_01]: of the podcast.

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_01]: This weekend, I wanted to reach into the vault a bit and queue up an encore of my conversation

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_01]: from January with aerospace historian Peter Merlin about his fascinating book, Dreamland,

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_01]: The Secret History of Area 51, which is the first scholarly comprehensive study of everyone's

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_01]: favorite classified Air Force base deep in the Nevada desert.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_01]: If you just saw the title and expect little green men or crashed UFOs, I'm sorry to say

[00:01:09] [SPEAKER_01]: you'll probably be disappointed, but the real stuff is often a lot more interesting.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Peter's book is a culmination of decades of intensive research sourced from innumerable

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_01]: declassified government records and interviews with former base personnel.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_01]: It details the origins of famous aircraft like the U-2 and SR-71 spy planes and the

[00:01:28] [SPEAKER_01]: F-117 stealth fighter and provides a rare moment of recognition for the men and women

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_01]: on the cutting edge of military aerospace development who've served there since the

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_01]: 1950s.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Just one more thing before I go.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_01]: We have an anonymous listener survey up till the end of September.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_01]: We've gotten a bunch of great responses already, so thank you to everyone who's contributed.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_01]: A link to the surveys in the show notes if you'd like to share your thoughts.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just 10 questions, pretty simple, looking to hear what you folks enjoy about the show

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and what we can do better.

[00:01:56] [SPEAKER_01]: There's also an optional section where, if comfortable, you're welcome to leave us some

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: very general background info, nothing identifiable, about your line of work, interests, hobbies,

[00:02:05] [SPEAKER_01]: et cetera.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_01]: We're just trying to get a better sense of who's listening, which helps us choose future

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_01]: topics to explore and fine tune how we talk about them.

[00:02:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks so much for listening, and I hope you enjoy my conversation with Peter Merlin.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Chris and I will be back on September 14th, right here in this feed with a fresh episode

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_01]: of Espresso Martini to kick off season nine of Secrets and Spies.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_00]: The opinions expressed by guests on Secrets and Spies do not necessarily represent those

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_00]: of the producers and sponsors of this podcast.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Peter Merlin, welcome to Secrets and Spies.

[00:02:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, this is probably the most excited I've been for an interview on this podcast,

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: and it is so, so great to have you.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for having me here.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_02]: It's great.

[00:03:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So before we get into the book and step behind the green door, tell us a bit about you and

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_01]: your work.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I've been researching the history of special access programs, black projects as

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_02]: they're known, probably for close to 40 years.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Got an interest when I started reading about the U-2 spy plane back in the early 1980s,

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_02]: and I read that it had been tested at a secret air base in Nevada called Area 51.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, the whole concept of a secret base within the US was just really fascinating, so I decided

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to learn more about that.

[00:03:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So Dreamland is the first scholarly authoritative history of Area 51, not the Area 51 of pop

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_01]: culture, the tinfoil hat brigade, the conspiracy theories, but the real thing.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So the US Air Force's premier classified proving ground for the development and testing of

[00:03:56] [SPEAKER_01]: advanced military aircraft and aerospace technology.

[00:03:59] [SPEAKER_01]: This book's the culmination of 30 years of research, and I think it's entirely warranted

[00:04:03] [SPEAKER_01]: to call this your magnum opus.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_01]: This book is huge.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd drop it on the table for dramatic effect, but I'm afraid I'd break something.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_01]: It covers numerous programs throughout the base's history in great depth.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: There are photographs on every page, many of which have never been published before.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_01]: To get us started, why did you write this book?

[00:04:25] [SPEAKER_01]: How did it come to be?

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it really started with me collecting information many years ago, and I was mostly

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_02]: just gathering information for my own interest.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_02]: The subject fascinated me.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I wanted to learn as much as I could.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I started out before the internet was a thing, so it was really hard to get information.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_02]: There were some references to Area 51 in a couple of books and a few articles.

[00:04:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And had I known where to look, I would have been able to find some archived newspaper

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_02]: stories as well, but I didn't learn about that until much later.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_02]: Over time, I began meeting people who had been involved with some of these programs,

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_02]: people who had worked at Area 51, and hearing their stories was quite fascinating.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_02]: But originally I had no intention of writing a book.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I was just collecting information, and after a while people started saying, geez, you've

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_02]: got a lot of information, maybe you ought to write a book.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And I thought, nah, that's silly.

[00:05:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But after I'd gotten a few actual publications under my belt, I began thinking, well, maybe

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_02]: that is something I should do.

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, the thing is, when you collect all this stuff and you think, I should write

[00:05:43] [SPEAKER_02]: a book, but if only I had just a little bit more information, it would be so much better.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So you put it off and collect a little more information, and it's like, ooh, this is

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_02]: good.

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_02]: But if I just had a little bit more, it would be better.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, eventually you have to say, don't let better be the enemy of good enough.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And I waited more than 30 years to get to that point, which I think was a good thing

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_02]: to do.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_02]: It meant that in the intervening years, a lot of programs got declassified.

[00:06:15] [SPEAKER_02]: The Central Intelligence Agency, which originally built Area 51, had not acknowledged the agency's

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_02]: activities there until 2010.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_02]: But once they did, that opened up a lot more doors, a lot more information.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_02]: So it was eventually possible to put together a pretty comprehensive narrative.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, it's not a complete narrative.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_02]: There are many programs that are still classified and will remain so for many years or decades.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Things happening now, things that have happened even decades ago, have not yet been revealed.

[00:06:52] [SPEAKER_02]: But I was able to put together a sufficient narrative that readers will be able to really

[00:07:00] [SPEAKER_02]: feel like they understand what Area 51 is all about and what it's like to live and work

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_02]: there.

[00:07:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So correct me if I'm wrong here, but you're not a former service member or intelligence

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_01]: officer.

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_01]: You do not now, nor have you ever held a security clearance.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_01]: How did you manage to conduct all this research in the open?

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_02]: It's true.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_02]: I've never been a government security officer or anything like that.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And for most of my life, I did not hold any sort of security clearance and was happy to

[00:07:28] [SPEAKER_02]: do so.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't want one.

[00:07:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't need one.

[00:07:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I was forced to take a pretty basic one for one of my jobs.

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_02]: But that had no overlap on any of this Area 51 related stuff, and that's a separate thing

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_02]: altogether.

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_02]: I was never briefed into any special access programs for, again, which I'm very grateful.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I would not want to be in that world.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So I had to rely entirely on unclassified source material.

[00:07:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And that means both documents that were at one time classified and that were subsequently

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_02]: downgraded to unclassified, and also stuff that was never classified in the first place,

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_02]: of which there's a surprising amount.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Because you can't really operate a facility this big in a completely classified manner.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, one of the biggest surprises I had, I kind of grew up with the conventional wisdom

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_02]: that Area 51 was so classified that the government didn't even acknowledge it existed until the

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_02]: mid-1990s and even then obliquely.

[00:08:40] [SPEAKER_02]: But that wasn't true.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_02]: It turns out that the government acknowledged the existence of the base from the very moment

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_02]: they started building it back in 1955.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_02]: As I said, the CIA was responsible for funding the project.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_02]: But they needed to keep the agency's involvement secret, so they hid behind the Atomic Energy

[00:08:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Commission.

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_02]: The airfield was built off the corner of the Nevada test site for nuclear weapons.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the Atomic Energy Commission was a natural cover.

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: There was already restrictions surrounding the area and the airspace.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it was really easy to have the AEC draft a press release saying, hey, we're building

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_02]: a little airfield to support our atomic testing.

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And they hoped that nobody would really pay much attention to that, although the press

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_02]: release was given to various newspapers, radio stations, and television news organizations

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_02]: at the time.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And that should have been a great cover, but even within a few months of that announcement,

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_02]: there were people within the media who were already referring to Groom Lake as the super

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_02]: secret proving grounds within the proving grounds.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So obviously, you know, they smelled a rat.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_02]: There was something leaking out that told them this is not just a little bit of support

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_02]: for the atomic programs.

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And that was, that kind of came to light in November 1955 when an Air Force transport

[00:10:11] [SPEAKER_02]: carrying a bunch of personnel to Groom Lake crashed on a mountain.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And when the news media started looking into it, there were some inconsistencies in the

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_02]: story and it sort of pushed a little bit into the light.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_02]: The base was originally called Watertown Air Strip.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_02]: It was only a temporary camp during the U-2 spy plane test and training days, 1955 through

[00:10:42] [SPEAKER_02]: summer of 57, when it was essentially closed down and mothballed for a while.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_02]: In 1959, when the CIA was looking to create a successor to the U-2, an airplane that could

[00:10:57] [SPEAKER_02]: fly much higher and faster.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_02]: This was the A-12, the predecessor to the famed SR-71 Blackbird.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_02]: The Watertown facility was reopened and additional construction took place to make it a radar

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_02]: cross section test facility and eventually build it up into a full scale air base for

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_02]: testing the A-12.

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And it was during that time that it became known as Area 51.

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So you sort of got us nicely into the genesis of the base.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: One thing that really sort of interested me was to learn that how it kind of began as

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_01]: a, I guess you could say, a partnership between the CIA and Kelly Johnson at Lockheed, the

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_01]: famed aerospace engineer who founded their Skunk Works division.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_02]: That's true.

[00:11:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And because many of the early programs that took place there, the U-2, the A-12, subsequent

[00:11:52] [SPEAKER_02]: developments of the A-12 and various drones, those were all Lockheed Skunk Works programs.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Kelly Johnson was a brilliant engineer, a very good organizer of people.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And he was also a huge personality.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_02]: He kind of took over the base to some extent, making it his own personal test site.

[00:12:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And the agency sometimes had run-ins with him over that.

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_02]: But it was a very good collaboration.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_02]: The Air Force was also involved from the very beginning.

[00:12:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Strategic Air Command purchased a bunch of U-2 spy planes as well, and they provided a

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_02]: lot of the support personnel for the base in terms of firefighting and some of the other

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_02]: things.

[00:12:39] [SPEAKER_02]: Security was provided by the Atomic Energy Commission and the CIA.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And then, as things progressed, the base just grew and grew into a much larger facility.

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_02]: It was no longer a temporary camp.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_02]: It was now a permanent airbase with an 8,500-foot-long runway with a 6,000-foot extension out onto

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_02]: the lake bed, a lot of hangars, a lot of housing, quite a few more people.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_02]: More than 1,200 people were working there for a while, and the population has grown

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_02]: since then.

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is during the late 1950s, early 1960s, when all this really kind of began in earnest.

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_01]: You mentioned how right next door is the Nevada Test Site, I guess then controlled by the

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_01]: AEC, now the Department of Energy.

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is at a time when there was a lot of the lower-yield aboveground nuclear tests

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_01]: happening on Frenchman Flat.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Casinos would famously advertise, like, come see a show and then see a bomb go off in the

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: morning.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: How did operating in that environment sort of affect activities at Grimm Lake at that

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: time?

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_02]: It definitely caused a lot of problems.

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_02]: In the mid-1950s, when the base opened up, there were at that time no aboveground tests

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_02]: going on.

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So it was a quiet period for a while.

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_02]: But then in 1957, you had Operation Plumbob starting up and the atmospheric testing again,

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_02]: which meant any time there were aboveground tests, the base had to be evacuated.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_02]: All the work was shut down.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Only a few security personnel were left on site.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_02]: It was a serious problem and partly led to the shutdown of activities in the summer of

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_02]: 1957 because it was just going to be impossible to get anything done.

[00:14:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Now, the base was reopened again subsequently in 1959.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_02]: In the early 1960s, there were still aboveground tests and that also caused temporary evacuations.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_02]: So you had some of the big tests like Shot Hood in July of 57, which actually was a 74

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_02]: kiloton detonation if you want to compare.

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Hiroshima was 13 kilotons.

[00:15:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So this was a really big bomb.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And even though it was about 15 miles away from the base, it still broke some windows

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_02]: and caused damage to some of the buildings.

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, one of the big issues was that the tests were planned when the winds were

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_02]: blowing from Yucca Flat and Frenchman Flat to the northeast, which would take any fallout

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_02]: away from populated areas like Las Vegas or Los Angeles.

[00:15:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Unfortunately, that meant it would blow right over Groom Lake and head over into central

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Nevada and into Utah where it caused a lot of problems for the downwinders.

[00:15:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So at what point did control of the base, I guess, formally shift from Langley to the

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Air Force? And how did that kind of change the culture, the management, the sort of programs

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_01]: that happened there?

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_02]: The CIA decided in the mid-1970s that it was probably time to get out of the airplane business.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_02]: And so by that time, the Air Force was a major tenant at Area 51 conducting tests of captured

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Soviet fighter planes.

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And so agency officials decided it would be a good idea to transfer responsibility to

[00:16:19] [SPEAKER_02]: the Air Force. And that took place beginning in 1977.

[00:16:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And so by 1979, a formal Air Force organization had been set up to have complete

[00:16:35] [SPEAKER_02]: responsibility for Groom Lake.

[00:16:37] [SPEAKER_02]: The term Area 51 fell into disuse.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_02]: It was now referred to as Detachment 3 of the Air Force White Test Center.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And it definitely had a cultural shift.

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_02]: For a while, apparently in the early days of Air Force ownership, it was surprisingly

[00:16:57] [SPEAKER_02]: open and they had a number of visitors who came out to check out this place.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_02]: But the stealth programs were coming into being at that time, aircraft that were invisible

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: to radar.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_02]: So security tightened up quite a bit.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And the MIG evaluation programs with Soviet fighters continued as well.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And that got to be a much bigger program.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And there were developments by both Lockheed and Northrop on different approaches to

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_02]: developing stealth technology.

[00:17:32] [SPEAKER_02]: And so these programs occupied the early to late 1980s quite a bit.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Security was tightened to the point where eventually someone said, you know, there's

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_02]: some mountains surrounding this base where people can climb up and look at us with

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_02]: binoculars, spy on what's going on.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So the Air Force essentially seized about 89,000 acres of public land in the Groom

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Mountains. And they did this without any congressional approval.

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_02]: That met with a lot of opposition.

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Eventually, congressional approval was given sort of retroactively.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_02]: And so all of that land became Air Force property.

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_02]: They missed a couple of spots.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And in the 1990s, some people who were interested in in Groom Lake for looking at

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_02]: whatever was going on there, spooky aircraft or UFOs or whatever, found these hilltops

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_02]: and decided this is a good place to camp out and take pictures and bring up an

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_02]: binoculars. The Air Force didn't like that because any time there were unauthorized

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_02]: visitors on the hilltops, it meant all the activities had to stop at Groom Lake.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_02]: That was costing the taxpayers millions of dollars.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_02]: It was keeping workers idle.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, programs were delayed.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the Air Force took nearly 5,000 acres of additional public land, which is the

[00:19:01] [SPEAKER_02]: maximum they could get away with without congressional approval.

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And that pushed the viewers back to the nearest hilltop where you could see the base,

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_02]: and that was some 26 miles away.

[00:19:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And that is still available, Tickaboo Peak, although the Air Force has stuck cameras up

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_02]: there so that if you're up there watching, they're watching you.

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. As I understand it, you have to have a really clear day and some really good

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_01]: camera equipment. And even then, they're not going to pull any good stuff out of the

[00:19:30] [SPEAKER_01]: hangars while you're up there.

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_02]: It's true. And 26 miles is a lot of atmosphere to be looking through with the best

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_02]: optics. So you have to really hope for some cold, still air.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Although folks have gotten some pretty amazing pictures from there.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_01]: For sure. Let's unpack two of the programs you mentioned.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_01]: The first that I find really interesting is, I guess, one of more famous ones that have

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_01]: since been declassified.

[00:19:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was based not just at Groom Lake, but also at Tonopah Sister Airfield across the

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Nevada Test and Training Range.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_01]: It involved the study of captured Soviet MiGs and what the Air Force calls foreign material

[00:20:05] [SPEAKER_01]: exploitation or FME.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Can you tell us a bit more about that, what that was all about?

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely. That was a very large, very important program and still is to a pretty high

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_02]: degree. In the 1960s during the Vietnam War, U.S.

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_02]: forces were really taking a pounding in the air over Southeast Asia.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_02]: The kill ratio is very bad.

[00:20:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And so the U.S.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Defense Department wanted to learn as much as possible about the Soviet type aircraft that

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_02]: were being used. And in 1968, thanks to some help from Israel, Air Force was able to

[00:20:46] [SPEAKER_02]: acquire a MiG-21, bring it to Area 51 and test fly it against all of the different U.S.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_02]: combat aircraft. Also take its radar cross-section measurements, infrared signature

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_02]: measurements, just really study its strengths and vulnerabilities, both in a technical

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_02]: sense and also a tactical sense.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So you have technical exploitation, which is essentially learning about how the aircraft is

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_02]: built, what are its performance capabilities generally, vulnerabilities to different kinds

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_02]: of weapons or electronic warfare systems.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the tactical exploitation was actually flying simulated combat missions against

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_02]: the enemy aircraft and finding out how you can defeat it in combat.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So that eventually split into a couple of different programs.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Some of the early, I mentioned the MiG-21, there was a couple of MiG-17s were brought out

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_02]: also in 1969 and in the early 1970s, more MiG-21s and 17s.

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And eventually by the 80s, they had MiG-23s as well.

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So really a wide variety of different Soviet type aircraft.

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So the program kind of split into the technical evaluation was known as the Red Hats and

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_02]: remained at Area 51.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_02]: The tactical exploitation was done by the Red Eagles and they eventually moved their

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_02]: operation to Tonopah Test Range, which is up in the northwest corner of the Nevada Test

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_02]: and Training Range.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And they had a whole squadron of Soviet aircraft, MiG-17s, 21s and 23s.

[00:22:37] [SPEAKER_02]: And the Red Eagles would fly them in simulated combat against frontline U.S.

[00:22:44] [SPEAKER_02]: forces.

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, these squadrons like you might get an F-15 squadron or F-16 squadron would

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_02]: come from wherever their home base was and deployed in Ellis and then go out to the

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_02]: range after a briefing and meet the MiGs in person.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Because the whole purpose of the more generic red flag exercises, which used F-5s as

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_02]: surrogates for the MiGs, was that if the first 10 missions in combat are the most

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_02]: dangerous, then you want to get those out of the way in training first so that if a

[00:23:20] [SPEAKER_02]: pilot has to go into actual combat, he'll already have the confidence to deal with it.

[00:23:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, that was one thing flying against an F-5.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_02]: But when you see an actual Soviet MiG-21 or MiG-23 in the air, you know, there was a

[00:23:36] [SPEAKER_02]: definite emotional kind of response to that.

[00:23:41] [SPEAKER_02]: So the pilots had to kind of get over that and pretty soon they got with the program.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And that effort still continues today in some form?

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_02]: It does.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_02]: The original constant peg training activity, which went from the late 1970s to

[00:23:58] [SPEAKER_02]: 1988 and exposed more than 6,000 U.S.

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_02]: airmen to combat with the MiGs, that was shut down due to budget cuts, but has

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_02]: continued on a much smaller scale because we still have surrogate plans doing the

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_02]: red flag aggressor training.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_02]: And we have guys flying actual MiGs in more limited engagements to keep that

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_02]: corporate knowledge going.

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_01]: In 2017, there was a crash outside Groom Lake that the Air Force very quickly sort

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_01]: of didn't want to say anything about.

[00:24:36] [SPEAKER_01]: A test pilot was killed there.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Didn't want to say what kind of aircraft was involved or, you know, anything.

[00:24:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Your book goes into quite a bit of detail about what actually happened there.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, you could tell us a bit about that.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was a little bit unfortunate because it wasn't even during one of the

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_02]: evaluation flights.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_02]: There was a two-seat Sukhoi Su-27 and the pilot flying it, he was a commander, the

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_02]: red hats, the guy in the back seat was getting a familiarization ride.

[00:25:12] [SPEAKER_02]: There was a problem with the landing gear.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_02]: They were not able to land safely.

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So the crew ejected, but unfortunately the pilot perished in that.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And like so many times before when secret aircraft had crashed either on or off the

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_02]: ranges, the Air Force sort of stonewalled the media on it, but eventually the story

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_02]: kind of came out, which seems to be the case.

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_02]: It brought to mind an incident back in the 1980s when a general had been taking a solo

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_02]: familiarization flight in a MiG-23 and lost control and crashed on the Nevada test

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_02]: site.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And at that time, you know, the news media was just told, you know, sorry, we can't

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_02]: say what it was.

[00:26:02] [SPEAKER_02]: It was an experimental prototype.

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And there were a lot of rumors then about stealth.

[00:26:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So there was speculation about that, but eventually congressional sources leaked that

[00:26:11] [SPEAKER_02]: it had been a MiG-23.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_02]: So that came out.

[00:26:14] [SPEAKER_01]: The other big, you mentioned this a bit previously, the other big effort happening at

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Grim Lake around this time was sort of the beginning of the stealth revolution, which,

[00:26:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, kind of continues right now into sixth gen technology.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_01]: We could easily do a whole episode just on that.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you can walk us a bit through how Grim has been involved in those efforts.

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, back in the 1970s, there were a lot of interesting ideas for what future combat

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_02]: aircraft should be.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_02]: But as it turned out, there was some really innovative concepts involving how to make an

[00:26:50] [SPEAKER_02]: aircraft invisible to detection by radar, because the harder it is to detect the

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_02]: airplane, the easier it is for that airplane to break through an enemy's defenses, get

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_02]: close to a target and destroy that target.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_02]: And so some of the early efforts focused on essentially attack aircraft and bomber type

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_02]: aircraft and cruise missiles.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And computer technology for the time was pretty good if you wanted to calculate the radar

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_02]: cross section of a flat panel.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_02]: So some engineers at Lockheed came up with a concept of an aircraft made entirely of

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_02]: flat panels.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_02]: It was faceted like a gem.

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So it didn't look particularly aerodynamic at all.

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, the aerodynamicists really hated it.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_02]: They said it looked like a, you know, Kelly Johnson said it looked like a tin shed in a

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_02]: hurricane.

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_02]: But it was a good approach from a radar standpoint.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_02]: And they were able to make it fly using computer technology, a lot of redundancy for

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_02]: controls.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_02]: And from that came the demonstrator called Have Blue, which proved the technology in a

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_02]: subscale form.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_02]: And then eventually the F-117A Nighthawk, which we know as the stealth fighter that

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_02]: proved to be so capable during Operation Desert Storm and subsequently.

[00:28:20] [SPEAKER_02]: But that was still a fairly primitive technology.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, the flat shaping was able to reflect radar waves away from the receiver.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Coating the aircraft in radar absorbent materials helped reduce those emanations even

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_02]: more. You can make the radar cross section pretty small.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_02]: But Northrop pursued a different angle using curved surfaces.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_02]: If you can make an airplane out of curved surfaces, it'll be much more aerodynamic.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_02]: You can use a more conventional shape of the aircraft.

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you can make that airplane stealthy, so much the better.

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's where their demonstrator, Tacit Blue, came from, which gave a lot of lessons

[00:29:05] [SPEAKER_02]: learned to what became the B-2 stealth bomber.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you look at modern aircraft, you'll see that the new B-21 looks a lot like the

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_02]: B-2, except even stealthier.

[00:29:24] [SPEAKER_02]: And some of the newer fighter planes look fairly conventional.

[00:29:28] [SPEAKER_02]: The F-22 and the F-35 look quite conventional compared to, say, the F-117 or even the B-2.

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_02]: But yet they've taken on a lot of lessons learned from these earlier programs.

[00:29:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we're now orders of magnitude further along in developing low observables

[00:29:47] [SPEAKER_02]: technology.

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thanks for that. We're going to take a quick break.

[00:29:50] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll be right back with more.

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So Groomlink and the broader Nevada Test and Training Range have long had a close

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_01]: relationship with JSOC and the Special Operations community, including some

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_01]: involvement in Operation Neptune Spear, the mission to kill Osama bin Laden.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_01]: What role did Groom play there?

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's my understanding that the Nevada Test and Training Range was one of several

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_02]: locations used to train the helicopter crews using the JSOC and the Special

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Operations, including the stealth helicopters involved in the bin Laden raid.

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And a lot of planning went into that involving simulating the compound where bin

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Laden was hiding in Pakistan.

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, the Nevada desert, it's a high desert locality.

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a good simulation, high fidelity simulation of what the terrain is like in

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Pakistan as well.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So that was a good place for training these crews.

[00:31:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And that mission ended up being quite successful, other than the slight mishap of

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_02]: wrecking one of the helicopters, which is the only reason we, you know, that you and

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I know that there's a stealth helicopter because the wreckage was still sitting

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_02]: there at the compound when the news media showed up.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_01]: One of the, I guess, more important roles out at Groom Lake is their electronic

[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_01]: warfare range, which I understand can sort of be used to mimic their defenses of any

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_01]: country. And they use these radars out there to mimic Pakistani air defenses and test

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_01]: them against the Blackhawks.

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. Ever since the late, well, ever since the early 60s, even, the Nevada Test and

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Training Range has been a place where the DoD has accumulated both actual and

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_02]: stimulated threat systems from various aggressor countries or potential adversaries.

[00:31:59] [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, these are mostly systems that have been sold by the Soviets to their

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_02]: allies and client states and acquired through a combination of dealings with our

[00:32:12] [SPEAKER_02]: allies and just remnants from various wars in the Middle East.

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So, yeah, that's grown as well.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a very complex system.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_02]: There's a lot of people out there who can probably set up the range so that it simulates

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_02]: any number of different air defense systems around the world.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_02]: And we fly our combat planes out there and, you know, see how well they can penetrate

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_02]: those systems.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So Groom Lake is still very much active today.

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_01]: The modern airfield hosts a wing-size organization employing hundreds of contractors

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and military personnel.

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think people appreciate the scale of the operation that goes on out there, and

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_01]: they'd probably be surprised at how mundane and spartan it can be.

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_01]: What can you tell us about the organization that runs the base itself, how it's

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_01]: structured, and maybe just in broad strokes what happens there on a day-to-day basis today?

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, as you say, it's a wing-size organization in the Air Force.

[00:33:13] [SPEAKER_02]: An objective wing is essentially a fairly basic construct.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So you have a wing command section and the wing oversees several different groups.

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So you'll have an operations group, a logistics group, medical group, or director, which

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_02]: is also a group-size organization, so a security directorate.

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_02]: There was a range directorate that's now a range group.

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And then these group-size organizations are broken down into squadron-size organizations,

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, each with their own particular mission.

[00:33:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, it's like you'd find pretty much on any Air Force base.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_02]: This is obviously a test wing, so it's geared towards test and evaluation, you know, has

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_02]: some specialized elements there.

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And you'll have about, you know, approximately 500 or so uniformed military and Department

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_02]: of the Air Force civil service personnel, and 2,000 or more contractor personnel.

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And that's fairly typical in today's Air Force.

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_02]: That's just the way things are done.

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Workers have to get to work, so many of them may arrive by bus from local communities.

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, some in personal vehicles.

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Many of them fly in with a dedicated fleet of six 737s that operates out of Las Vegas.

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, when you think about how many people are working there, and they have to

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: move that workforce back and forth, you know, on a daily or weekly basis, it's pretty amazing.

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, a lot of people will come on a Monday morning, and they'll stay through the week

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_02]: and then return home on Friday.

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_02]: So you've got some time during the week to set up for testing, you know, days for conducting

[00:35:08] [SPEAKER_02]: the actual test projects and winding that up and then coming home again.

[00:35:15] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's got to be pretty hard on the people who work there and their families because,

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, folks will go away for a whole week.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_02]: They come back.

[00:35:22] [SPEAKER_02]: They can't talk about where they've been or what they've been doing.

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_02]: It might not be for years until something is declassified.

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_02]: They can say, hey, you know, I remember when I used to disappear for a week at a time.

[00:35:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, here's why.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So we sort of understand it here.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_01]: The organization base there is Detachment 3 Air Force Test Center, which is under the

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Air Force Materiel Command.

[00:35:43] [SPEAKER_02]: That's correct.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And the name of the base itself, like the airfield, it's not Area 51 or hasn't been for a long

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_01]: time.

[00:35:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's one of those things where, you know, where the Air Force has said things

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_02]: like, well, you know, it doesn't have a name per se, which is sort of true.

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, yes, it is Area 51.

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_02]: That was an official name that was given to that location.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, there have been people over the years who said, oh, wasn't Area 51 just some,

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, goofy name the UFO nuts came up with?

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, no, no, it was really called that.

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_02]: It's, it's on the maps.

[00:36:18] [SPEAKER_02]: It's on, it's in the telephone directories.

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_02]: It was, you know, on the badges that personnel were wearing, security personnel and fire

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: department.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_02]: So Area 51 was a real designation.

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_02]: It just wasn't used by the Air Force because that's not part of their nomenclature.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_02]: That was assigned from the Atomic Energy Commission and, and, you know, the CIA adopted it and

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_02]: used it officially.

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And so it can be called DET 3, AFTC, which is a legitimate name.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_02]: It's an organization name, but you can also use it to refer to the operating location.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_02]: It can be called Dreamland, which is a radio call sign that's used.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_02]: It describes the airspace over the Groom Lake area.

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_02]: But I've seen an official document where an operations command, operations group commander,

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, signed his name.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_02]: And then under that, under organization just put Dreamland.

[00:37:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, that's a legitimate name as well.

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's just slippery enough that there's some deniability for the Air Force.

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_02]: If you, if you try to ask them about it and they can shrug their shoulders, but a lot of,

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of official Air Force biographies mentioned, you know, of various officers, you know,

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_02]: specifically mentioned Detachment 3, Air Force, Flight Test Center, Test Center.

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, other times they just used the words data masked or classified location.

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So it's a little bit schizophrenic.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_02]: There's no single, single philosophy for how the Air Force treats that.

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_02]: So sometimes they act like it's just, you know, the most super secret thing in the world.

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_02]: And other times they seem quite open about it.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_02]: It's really strange.

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting to me how, I guess, if you know what to look for and how to read between

[00:38:14] [SPEAKER_01]: some of the lines of some of these, you know, like you said, the officer biographies and everything.

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, a lot of it will say like, you know, location, it'll say data masked or something,

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_01]: but like there's some people that you can follow.

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_01]: You look at their biographies and you can tell like they've spent their entire professional

[00:38:32] [SPEAKER_01]: careers in and around the space.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_02]: It's true.

[00:38:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And I mean, just looking for the words data mask doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_02]: There's lots of different data mask locations all over the world.

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_02]: But if you see that, you know, like Princeton's the person you're looking at, you know, worked

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_02]: at a data mask location, but their whole career is all missiles in space, then chances are

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_02]: they're not going to be out in Groom Lake.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_02]: But if they were, you know, at the test pilot school and doing all this, you know, fighter

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_02]: testing or whatever, and you know, then they get a data masked assignment as an operations

[00:39:10] [SPEAKER_02]: officer and a squadron commander.

[00:39:14] [SPEAKER_02]: They lived in Las Vegas, which of course, you know, there's a lot of records that are

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_02]: publicly available, voter records and such.

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_02]: And so you can say, well, geez, that guy, you know, lived right there in Vegas and has

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_02]: these data masked assignments.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_02]: I wonder where that was.

[00:39:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's fairly obvious.

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:39:32] [SPEAKER_01]: In early 2022, commercial satellite imagery captured an exotic delta-shaped aircraft

[00:39:39] [SPEAKER_01]: about the size of a fighter parked on an apron near one of the more remote southern hangars.

[00:39:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Purely for speculation's sake, if you could peel off the hangar roofs and look down from

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Google Earth right now, what would you expect to see?

[00:39:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's an interesting thing that in the past couple decades, there's been a lot of

[00:40:01] [SPEAKER_02]: construction of new hangars.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_02]: New hangars have showed up again and again.

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, some of these were quite elaborate and expensive.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, there's one hangar facility that is estimated to cost, you know, close to 90

[00:40:17] [SPEAKER_02]: million dollars, you know, and that's not an insignificant expense when you include

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_02]: the hangar office infrastructure, taxiway and ramp parking area.

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_02]: And you say, well, you know, look at the base.

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_02]: There's already a couple dozen hangars.

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, if they're building new hangars, that means they need new hangars.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_02]: These other hangars aren't empty.

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_02]: They're being used for stuff.

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So generally it's been considered that the Red Hats have been using the northernmost

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_02]: hangars up on the north ramp.

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_02]: There's an area for parking chase plans like the F-16 and occasionally the F-18.

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_02]: That's recently been given a sunroof.

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Which it helps the ground crews when they're maintaining the aircraft to keep out of the

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_02]: hot weather or the inclement weather and also does double duty of hiding what's parked

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_02]: under there.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, whereas before you could say, hey, look, there's three chase plans.

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Now you just see a roof.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_02]: There was another set of hangars that was originally built for the F-117A for accepting

[00:41:29] [SPEAKER_02]: the tactical air command operational aircraft as they came online.

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But after that was no longer needed, they were pressed into service for other things.

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And those have been increased in size with the use of some of these shelter roofs.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So people speculated that there might be some, possibly some unmanned aerial vehicle testing

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_02]: going on.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Some antennas that have shown up on parts of the base would suggest that as well.

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Occasionally, you know, you'll find that certain hangars are assigned to specific companies

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_02]: like Lockheed Martin or Northrop Grumman or Boeing or whoever.

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_02]: So you probably got several different companies involved in combined test force operations

[00:42:16] [SPEAKER_02]: with their military customers.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, we have new programs like the NGAD, the sixth generation fighter.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's next generation air dominance.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_02]: There have been some, reportedly some prototypes of that tested out there.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I expect there's a lot of unmanned aerial vehicle activity going on.

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_02]: And who knows?

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_02]: There's just so many things they aren't telling us.

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_01]: It's one of the other sort of big black special access programs that's rumored to be in,

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess, well into development right now is a successor to the SR-71.

[00:42:59] [SPEAKER_01]: What we, I guess, call for lack of a better term, the SR-72.

[00:43:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Do we suspect that development is currently going on out there?

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a really good question.

[00:43:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Lockheed Martin has sort of been putting the word out there that they are actively pursuing that.

[00:43:17] [SPEAKER_02]: For a long time, it looked to me and to a lot of other analysts like it was largely a study

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_02]: program, you know, the paper airplane, if you will.

[00:43:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And we weren't really sure how close it was to any kind of actual hardware development,

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_02]: but the company has been hinting very strongly that there is an actual,

[00:43:40] [SPEAKER_02]: you know, hardware aircraft out there.

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_02]: It's either flown or it's getting ready to fly soon.

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I hope that's true.

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_02]: It'd be very exciting.

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is a, one of the things that I find kind of funny.

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a little funny if you look at it.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, so Lockheed was apparently developing this program internally with corporate funds,

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_01]: as you mentioned.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And then shortly after Russia's invasion of Ukraine, every mention of it, like press

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_01]: releases, everything just disappeared from Lockheed's website.

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Could we sort of deduce that the Air Force suddenly got interested?

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_02]: That's quite possible.

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, if it is, you know, they're talking about a hypersonic reconnaissance

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_02]: platform, you know, there is still a use for that sort of thing.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Like the SR-71 is a Mach 3 reconnaissance platform.

[00:44:35] [SPEAKER_02]: It could be sent in from any direction you chose and make a high and fast dash across

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_02]: a target.

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_02]: But a lot of other focus has been on persistence.

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_02]: So you want to have a platform that can be persistent, long-term while being undetectable.

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_02]: So a stealthy high altitude platform that would remain within an area of interest for

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_02]: a considerable amount of time.

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So that would be a subsonic platform.

[00:45:04] [SPEAKER_02]: So you've really got a couple different kinds of things.

[00:45:07] [SPEAKER_02]: The subsonic stealthy platform seems to have been well into development since 2009 and

[00:45:16] [SPEAKER_02]: is undoubtedly operational at this point.

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Whereas this new high speed platform is probably still coming into being.

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So I guess the lower speed platform is also, for lack of a better term, the RQ-180?

[00:45:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_02]: That's the term that was used in 2013 in an article in Aviation Week in Space Technology

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_02]: magazine.

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Reporter Bill Sweetman insisted that he was told that's what it was called.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So maybe it is.

[00:45:45] [SPEAKER_02]: There were some reasons why that could have been completely illogical and unlikely.

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_02]: But on the other hand, a lot of these secret programs get saddled with bizarro kind of

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_02]: alphanumeric designators.

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Are there any other moments or stories during your research that particularly fascinated

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_01]: or intrigued you?

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I have to say some of the most fun I've had has been talking to the people who worked

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_02]: out there.

[00:46:13] [SPEAKER_02]: I've met a lot of really interesting folks, engineers, pilots, all kinds of different

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_02]: people who work different aspects of the programs.

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_02]: It sounds like in the 1960s and 70s, particularly into the 1980s, it was kind of the Wild West

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_02]: out there.

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_02]: These guys were off on their own and had no adult supervision, so to speak.

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_02]: It eventually got to the point where the Air Force had to sort of impose a little bit more

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_02]: regulation on things and try to rein things in a bit.

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think it's sufficient to say the people who work there, they work hard, they make

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_02]: a lot of sacrifices.

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And so they're probably entitled to cut loose a bit, and no doubt they do.

[00:47:12] [SPEAKER_02]: And I hope that somewhere down the line, they'll eventually be able to talk about their

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_02]: accomplishments.

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's one of the really interesting things about your book.

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, there's a lot of stuff, very cool, interesting stuff about all the aircraft that

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_01]: have been tested out there.

[00:47:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But there's also just a lot of really good human stories about the people out there.

[00:47:31] [SPEAKER_01]: You mentioned how they kind of let loose, like you talk about the bar that's out there,

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Sam's Place, which is really interesting.

[00:47:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I would encourage people when they get the book, there's plenty of those little

[00:47:44] [SPEAKER_01]: stories out there peppered all through it.

[00:47:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So this is, after all, a conversation about Area 51.

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd be remiss not to at least mention the little green elephant in the room.

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's UFOs, Babla Zar, all the many conspiracies.

[00:48:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you're a serious person.

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_01]: You exist in reality and deal with facts.

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_01]: You care deeply about the subject.

[00:48:06] [SPEAKER_01]: You also work in academia.

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And in that setting, I can easily see the perception of a colleague who maybe doesn't

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_01]: already know your work being, oh, that's the Area 51 guy, which you are, but not in that

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_01]: way.

[00:48:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So how has the conspiracy theory industrial complex that looms over Groom Lake graded

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_01]: against the seriousness of your research?

[00:48:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you're absolutely right about that.

[00:48:29] [SPEAKER_02]: If I could have written the book without ever mentioning UFOs or Lazar, I would have done

[00:48:33] [SPEAKER_02]: so.

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_02]: But that would have been disingenuous.

[00:48:36] [SPEAKER_02]: It had to be addressed and it is addressed, absolutely.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_02]: But you're right.

[00:48:43] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a serious scholarly study of the history of Area 51.

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And part of the problem, of course, is if you mention this to anyone within academia,

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_02]: if you say, yeah, I wrote a book on Area 51, their first thought will be flying saucers

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_02]: because that's what they've been conditioned by popular culture to think about Area 51.

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_02]: So I wrote what I like to think is a very engaging, readable narrative, but I also made

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_02]: sure to document it from start to finish with source notes.

[00:49:17] [SPEAKER_02]: There are 47 pages of source notes at the back of the book because I wanted to show

[00:49:21] [SPEAKER_02]: that I'd done my homework from an academic standpoint.

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And also, I didn't want anyone to accuse me of using any sensitive materials.

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_02]: It's all documented right there what it is.

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And my scholarship is unassailable.

[00:49:36] [SPEAKER_02]: So anyone in academia can look at this and I say, you know, you got to read the book

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_02]: before you criticize.

[00:49:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So it seems more difficult than ever for the federal government to keep a massive special

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_01]: access program like those that developed the A-12 and the F-117 hidden.

[00:49:55] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you see the future of secretive military research facilities like Groom Lake in an

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_01]: era of both increasing great power competition and public awareness?

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, to some extent it is difficult to keep a program, even a Black program, completely

[00:50:13] [SPEAKER_02]: in the dark.

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you know, and this goes all the way back to the Manhattan Project when, you know,

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_02]: they did so much to keep things super secret and yet the Russians still managed to get

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_02]: all the information about our atomic weapons design.

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, during the, you know, the programs of testing the MiG-21, for instance, that

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_02]: was a secret project.

[00:50:36] [SPEAKER_02]: And yet, you know, within a couple months it was already in Aviation Week in Space Technology.

[00:50:41] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, so many of these programs just have a detectable footprint that can be seen.

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_02]: And so, you know, you can't just keep it completely in the black.

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_02]: But you can keep the technical details for the most part, you know, secure and hidden

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_02]: away.

[00:50:58] [SPEAKER_02]: So just, you know, just knowing that a program exists doesn't give away any advantage to

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_02]: an enemy.

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_02]: In fact, it might even cause them to start spending a lot of money that they wouldn't

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_02]: have otherwise spent.

[00:51:11] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, we certainly exploited that during the Cold War, getting the Soviets to

[00:51:16] [SPEAKER_02]: overextend themselves on their military budget.

[00:51:21] [SPEAKER_02]: But I think these sites will continue to be very valuable.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, you got to remember that not everything that's secret is going on at a

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_02]: super secret base like Tonopah Test Range or Vroom Lake.

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_02]: There's secret stuff going on at military bases all across the country and around the

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_02]: world.

[00:51:38] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's protected in their own special ways and will continue to be so.

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_01]: What are you most hopeful that readers will take away from the book?

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, mostly I wanted to demystify Area 51.

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I want them to see it as a real place with real people to feel it as, you know, to feel

[00:51:59] [SPEAKER_02]: its realness and not just imagine it as a black hole of mystery and intrigue.

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think that's a great way to sum it up.

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what we covered today really just scratches the surface of all the really interesting

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_01]: details and stories that are in this book.

[00:52:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we could easily go on for another hour or two, but I want to leave a lot for

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_01]: readers to discover on their own.

[00:52:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Where can listeners find more about you and your work?

[00:52:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, my books are certainly available.

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_02]: The Dreamland, The Secret History of Area 51 is available from Schiffer Publishing.

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I have a lot of other books.

[00:52:39] [SPEAKER_02]: All of my NASA publications are available as free e-books online.

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I wrote a book about the design and development of the Blackbird for the American Institute

[00:52:48] [SPEAKER_02]: of Aeronautics and Astronautics, which is available from AIAA.

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_02]: If it's not still in print, it might be, but if it isn't, you can find copies on Amazon,

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure.

[00:52:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And I've also written several titles for Arcadia Publishing's Images of America series,

[00:53:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and those include Area 51, Tonopah Test Range, and Nevada Test Site.

[00:53:09] [SPEAKER_02]: And those are mostly photo essays that are very affordable and have a lot of good information

[00:53:16] [SPEAKER_02]: if you just want the basic stuff.

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_02]: If you're into the real details, well, my mighty tome, my magnum opus is the way to

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_02]: go with that.

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, this isn't a visual medium, but trust me when I say it's a very big and weighty

[00:53:33] [SPEAKER_01]: book.

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So the book is Dreamland, The Secret History of Area 51.

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll have all the links to where it's available and Peter's other work in the show notes.

[00:53:44] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're an aerospace geek or interested in military history, or even if you're a UFO

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_01]: conspiracy theorist, I guess, this book is well worth its weight and sticker price.

[00:53:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Peter, thanks so much for joining us.

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It was a pleasure speaking with you.

[00:53:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Thanks for having me.

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening.

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_00]: This is Secrets and Spies.