[00:00:00] Announcer: Due to the themes of this podcast, listener discretion is advised. Lock your doors. Close the blinds. Change your passwords. This is Secrets and Spies. Secrets and Spies is a podcast that dives into the world of espionage, terrorism, geopolitics, and intrigue. This podcast is produced and hosted by Chris Carr. [00:00:37] Chris Carr: On today's podcast, I'm joined by German investigative journalist, Florian Flade, and we take a look at Russia's shadow war against NATO and EU countries, and it involves sabotage, assassination plots, and drone sightings. This is a very interesting episode and I hope you enjoy it. Thank you for watching, and thank you for listening. Take care. [00:00:55] Announcer: The opinions expressed by guests on Secrets and Spies do not necessarily represent those of the producers and sponsors of this podcast. [00:01:19] Chris: Florian, welcome back to the podcast. How are you? [00:01:22] Florian Flade: I'm really good. I'm really well, thank you. [00:01:24] Chris: Excellent. It looks like you got a bit of a tan going on there, have you caught some sun over the weekend? [00:01:28] Florian: Yeah, we had a, we had a pretty sunny weekend in Berlin and hopefully, uh, full summer coming soon. [00:01:33] Chris: Yes, well, same here in the UK, fingers crossed. It's a bit chilly, uh, in the shade, but, uh, but we're getting there. So, Florian, for the benefit of listeners who are unfamiliar with your work, please could just tell us a little bit about yourself. [00:01:46] Florian: Of course. I am, um, a national security reporter working, uh, for the German public broadcaster, WDR, and I'm part of a investigative cooperation that, um, now has existed for, for several years, still existing, um, with, uh, uh, NDR and Süddeutsche Zeitung, so three medias working together on bigger investigative project. And I am, uh, focusing mainly on security related topics, on extremism, terrorism, espionage, everything related to to security, and more and more military, uh, topics as well. [00:02:23] Chris: Fantastic. And, uh, yeah, they're very much the en vogue subjects these days, so, uh-- [00:02:28] Florian: Yeah. [00:02:28] Chris: Good, good area to be in. So, um, yeah, you, you, we, we're gonna have a little chat today about, sort of, Russia's shadow war against NATO. So I was wondering if you could give us a quick overview of what you meant by that phrase. [00:02:40] Florian: I would like to quote, uh, the new secretary, uh, general of NATO, um, Mr. Mark Rutte. Uh, last December, he said -- he came forward with a quite good description of the situation, the current situation, I guess -- and he said, We are not at war, but we are not at peace either. So, there's something in between going on, and it's been a very worrisome situation. So there is, um, a lot going on in this fear of hybrid warfare. Um, so there is reason to believe that Russia is engaged in a shadow war against NATO, against NATO countries. And, uh, this is a form of war that, uh, yeah, we, in the West we like to describe as hybrid warfare and a conflict fought, uh, basically in the shadows and it's in the so-called "grey zone." And what do I mean by that? It's a, uh, basically it's attacks against certain targets: critical infrastructure, military targets, also civilian, uh, targets, um, in NATO countries in Europe, um, that can be regarded as acts of sabotage. And in many cases there's suspicion, in some cases there's proof, that this was, um, done by people recruited by Russian intelligence services, done by agents of Russia. And yeah, since the start of Russia's war, uh, against Ukraine in February 2022, there have been numerous such attacks. There have been arson attacks in Poland, in the Baltic states, in the UK, in Germany, in the Scandinavian countries. Um, there have been a lot of drone sightings over sensitive, um, areas, military bases and, and other, um, critical infrastructure. Increasing number of incidents in the Baltic Sea, uh, involving vessels and tankers that severed, uh, um, undersea cables and also pipelines. And yeah, there have been several, um, uh, sabotage suspects that have been arrested all over Europe, some of them put on trial, some of them already sentenced to prison terms. And yeah, during these investigations, um, in criminal cases, uh, a certain, I would say picture, emerges and that is the picture of Russia, Russian intelligence services, recruiting people all over Europe to carry out attacks, um, to conduct false-flag operations, trying to cause unrests and anger in society, and also trying to influence, uh, elections. Yeah, this is the broader picture of what is happening now. [00:05:10] Chris: Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you very much for that. So, there was sort of a, you were saying there's sort of an uptick around sort of 2022 with the Ukraine War. So, um, how did you start first investigating a lot of these sort of covert operations that we're gonna sort of talk about today, and what sort of drew, drew your attention to them? [00:05:27] Florian: To be honest, um, this development in the recent years has been, uh, expected by European security services to happen. [00:05:37] Chris: Yes. [00:05:37] Florian: So, um, I was told in 2022 already, uh, that from, uh, sources within German, uh, security authorities, that they suspect Russia would change its behavior in the sphere of espionage and also maybe sabotage. And um, they told me back then, um, that they would expect Russia to react to the fact that several hundred Russia intelligence officers posing as diplomats were expelled from the European Union. And that would mean that they have to change their way of operation, their modus operandi, so to say. And what was expected was that Russia would maybe recruit just criminal people to carry out, um, certain things, surveillance, operations, maybe even assassinations. And, um, yeah, this is basically what happened. Russia is now recruiting agents, operatives, via online chats, mostly Telegram, to carry out actual sabotage to -- they're getting paid money for surveillance operations and, um, on military and human targets in Europe. So this is basically something that I heard early on, shortly after the war in Ukraine began, that Europe, European security services expected this to happen. [00:06:57] Chris: Yeah. So this, this use of low-level, single-use agents, um, you know, what kind of people are they? You mentioned sort of criminals a little bit there, and what kind of missions are these individuals being tasked with? [00:07:09] Florian: Yeah, so these people are basically, most of them are regular civilians. Most of them are Russian-speaking. Um, at least the majority of the cases that have been investigated, we know that these people were recruited online, they were recruited via Telegram, and um, most of them are men, are male, uh, suspects. And, yes, these people are getting recruited for, um, certain operations, some of them just for small tasks like taking pictures of military facilities, of military bases, of train tracks, of everything related to, also the material military support for Ukraine. And, um, they're getting paid money, uh, via cryptocurrency. And, um, yeah, in some cases these people are, um, not even chatting with a real human being on the other side of the, of that chat, but, chat bots. So, um, yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's fascinating to see that they are even using, um, AI now, um, to, to recruit these people. And, um, yeah, so there's basically a network now of these low-level agents. I mean, the, it's a, it's quite an interesting term. The, our German, the German, uh, foreign, uh, Intelligence service, BND, they call them single-use agents. Our domestic intelligence service calls them low-level agents, but what they mean is it's proxies. It's just, it's not professional intelligence people, but regular civilians. Some of them are patchy criminals, um, uh, just in a need for money, just looking to do a job, um-- [00:08:46] Chris: Yeah. [00:08:46] Florian: So, then they're recruited. There's also, um, different patterns that you can see in Europe. Um, we heard from the people in Scandinavia, uh, that there are criminals from certain gangs are being recruited. Also teenagers, um, young people. We heard in, uh, that in Spain, uh, they are targeting, um, Spanish-speaking people from Latin America, South America, immigrants. Um, and they're offering a little money, just a few hundred, few hundred euros to carry out certain tasks. [00:09:18] Chris: It's reminiscent of a couple of cases that have happened in the UK because obviously we've had these Bulgarian spies who were arrested and recently charged with espionage who are following Christoph, uh, Christo Grozev, um-- [00:09:30] Florian: Yeah. [00:09:31] Chris: From Bellingcat. They also went to -- well, were planning to surveil Ukrainian soldiers, uh, getting weapons training at American base in, in Germany. I think it was-- Was it Ramstein Base, or? [00:09:43] Florian: No, it was, uh, in Stuttgart. [00:09:44] Chris: In Stuttgart, okay. [00:09:45] Florian: Yeah. [00:09:45] Chris: That's it, yeah. And they were planning to kind of, um, find out what phones they were using so they could trace them back to Ukraine, which was quite clever and dangerous in some ways. Um, had there been any indications of any of these individuals being ideologically motivated? Because what I've noticed, um, over, looking at a few things over the last few years, there seems to be quite a few people who lean to the far-right who seem to be very sympathetic with Russia now. Um, and there's, there have been certain cases of high-level, um -- well, traitors is probably the word to use -- where we had like a British security guard who was working at the British Embassy in Berlin. [00:10:21] Florian: Yes. [00:10:21] Chris: Who had far-right leanings. Um, I believe there was a senior member of the German intelligence services who had some far-right leanings who was found to be spying for Russia. Have any of these single-use agents sort of, kind of erred on that? [00:10:33] Florian: There are cases. I mean, we heard from investigators, uh, investigating authorities here in Germany that they believe there are some ideologically driven people. Um, some of them are leaning more towards the extreme-right, some of them are to the extreme-left. Maybe even some of them have a very nostalgic picture of Russia. Um, some of them have, um, also family roots in the Soviet Union. And, um, some of them are traveling back and forth, even traveling to Russia right now because they have, they have family there. Uh, we have a case of, um, two people that were arrested, um, in April of last year in Bavaria, in the south of Germany, in, in Bayreuth. Both of them are German-Russians, and, um, so they have family roots in the, in the Soviet Union, or I think they were even, both of them were born also in, in Russia. And uh, one of them was, uh, he, he fought in Ukraine. He fought on the side of the pro-Russian militias in the Donbas region, uh, back in 2016 or 17, I think. Um, and he was basically approached and recruited by his former commander of this, uh, militia from, from Eastern Ukraine. And these two guys will be on trial soon in Munich. And because investigators believed that they wanted to carry out, uh, sabotage acts, and they were already, um, looking for military targets and were surveilling stuff, and also I think they even used a drone to take, to take pictures, but they, um, yeah, they were caught, um, pretty early on. And, uh, they will be on trial. It will be the, it will be the first trial of these, uh, saboteurs, uh, here in Germany. [00:12:15] Chris: Yeah, yeah. So it seems to be the German counterintelligence is doing a pretty good job of getting these people, [00:12:20] Florian: Um, let's say they are more focused on this topic now. They are still lacking, um, personnel. I mean, they still, they still need more staff to, to work on this case, on these cases. And, um, yeah, it, I mean, it's something at the end of the Cold War and in the 1990s, nobody was really looking into counter, counter-espionage, counterintelligence work. It was regarded as something of the old days, something that you wouldn't need, uh, anymore. So more and more people were then, after 9/11, were focused on jihadi terrorism, international terrorism. And yeah, so you have to rebuild all of this, also, knowledge and professional, um, attitude towards, towards, you know, catching spies. And, uh, I think the, also, German authorities have to go, uh, one way further than they are now. So, we need, we need more personnel and we need to step up the game because there are probably more than these two guys running around Germany, uh, being a single-use agent. And there were not that many, uh, arrested, um, till today. [00:13:23] Chris: Yeah, and obviously there's challenges legally of arresting spies as well. It's quite difficult because sometimes the intelligence services don't wanna reveal their methods of how they kind of caught them in the act, so they have to be very careful, don't they? [00:13:34] Florian: Yes, yeah. [00:13:34] Chris: Well, um, back to these single-use agents for a moment. Does this shift then -- um, because you mentioned the expulsion of Russian diplomats -- so, does this shift sort of, um, to using low-level, uh, operatives indicate that Russia is stretched? Or is this a deliberate strategy to reduce traceability? Or even worse, is it that Russia is saving them more experienced people for other more sensitive operations? [00:13:58] Florian: It is probably, probably all of what you just described is true. [00:14:04] Chris: Okay. [00:14:05] Florian: Um, I, I, I guess that Russian, Russia's services, um, are looking for a way to carry out operations in Europe, um, after many of their professional operatives have been expelled. So I just, they're just looking for a way to operate. Um, and on the other hand, the use of this, these low-level agents, uh, comes with many advantages. And one of them you just described is, uh, deniability. Um, so it's, there's a strategy to re, to reduce traceability and all -- and one, once the person is, is caught and there's the deniability. Just saying, "I have no idea why this person has done it. He was recruited by someone on the internet. Nobody knows." So, um, these individuals are recruited, I mean, online. Some, as I told you, some of them are not even communicating with a, with a human being anymore, but with a bot. Um, they're given these tasks then paid in cryptocurrency. Um, it's not like they're being told, um, "Hello, this is GRU, um, we want you to do a, to do a favor for us. There's also some money for you in this game." [00:15:10] Chris: Mm-hmm. Hmm. [00:15:10] Florian: Uh, it, it's not as simple as that. And, um, so yeah, these are the, the, the advantages. It's pretty hard to prove that it is really Russia's intelligence services that are behind the recruitment and, and, and, and, you know, a guiding of these, of these low-level agents. So all of that makes it very attractive. Um, but it's also a risk to Russia's services. You know, you give out, you know, you give it to non-professionals, to amateur agents. You're giving them these very sensitive tasks, very dangerous tasks in some cases. Um, that, that comes with a risk. I mean, these people, uh, you, you don't know, um, if people are being killed, you know, if someone will end up dead, um, after an arson attack. Um, and it's, and it's looking more and more like state terrorism, state-sponsored terrorism, to be honest. Yeah, it's, it's more than just, uh, espionage. It's, it's much more than that. [00:16:01] Chris: Yeah. Well, the danger of hiring an amateur is that if their only experience of spying is Hollywood movies, they might start doing really stupid things. [00:16:09] Florian: True. [00:16:09] Chris: Um, that are dangerous, you know. like the Christo Grozev case. Um, the individuals who were following him, uh, in their, I, I can't remember what app they were using. It might have been WhatsApp or Telegram, where they were communicating with each other. Um, they were talking about, like, how they could sort of kidnap him and torture him and murder him, and if they had done that, um, and let's say the Russian state didn't want that, that could create a big problem. So it's, yeah. [00:16:35] Florian: Yeah. I mean, they were talking about crazy stuff. I mean, if you, if you read that, um, uh, it's in, it's insane. They were thinking about kidnapping, uh, I think it was Christo Grozev or, or his colleague, um, Roman, uh, and then kidnapping him. Then taking him, I think on a yacht, from, from Italy to Tarus, to the Russian military base in Syria, and then torturing them there. And then on the other hand, um, uh, you know, bringing people to Russia with, uh, with masks on that would resemble Christo Grozev and then, and a like a fake trial? [00:17:11] Chris: Yeah. [00:17:11] Florian: Or a fake press conference or something. I mean, they had crazy ideas. And even, um, at, at one point they said, "Let's hire a suicide bomber, an ISIS suicide bomber to kill him on the streets," or something like that. I mean, it's, it's insane. [00:17:24] Chris: Yeah, yeah. Oh, my goodness. So, yeah, with these aggressive acts that are going on -- so, drone incursion, sabotage, and these potential assassination plots -- why do you think Russia feels so confident in sort of doing this inside NATO countries? [00:17:38] Florian: It's probably because, uh, there hasn't been a real hard reaction coming from, from European countries. [00:17:45] Chris: Mm. [00:17:46] Florian: And, um, I think what it's important to understand is, we in the West, we think there is peace, there's conflict, and then there's war. Russia looks at this a different way, and for Russia, this is all one ongoing fight against the West, and it's basically part of the same war. So, it's a continuing thing. And, um, it, it didn't start at February '22. Um, it started well before that. And, uh, if you look back, um, there have been attacks like this, um, uh, before the war in Ukraine started. I mean, in, in October and December of 2014, I think it was, um, GRU operatives, um, carried out, um, bomb attacks at, um, on a, against an ammunition plant in the Czech Republic back then, killing two people, like security guards there. And this facility had produced ammunition, um, that was sold to Ukraine back at the time. Uh, a year later, a Bulgarian arms dealer was poisoned, also, very likely by GRU operatives, and he survived, uh, the assassination attempt. In 2018, there was the, the Novichok attack on Sergei Skripal and his daughter in, in Salisbury. Uh, then you had, in August, August, I think it was 2019, um, the, the killing of a Chechen, uh, a national, a former Chechen commander in a park in Berlin, in broad daylight, by, uh, FSB-trained assassin, uh, who was, uh, last year exchanged, uh, during the huge prison exchange with um, um, Evan Gershkovich from Wall Street Journal. Um, so there have been lethal attacks. There have been, you know, quite some serious operations going on, done by Russian services in Europe. And, um, there hasn't been a, I dunno, a really hard reaction by, by European security services. And, I mean, the Russian president, he has obviously given, um, authority to his intelligence services to carry out high-risk operations. And because the Kremlin sees itself engaged in this, uh, almost historical battle against the West, such campaigns as sabotage and, and others. Um, and what -- yeah, I mean, this is state terrorism in some of these cases. This is obviously seen as a legitimate way to attack NATO countries. And yeah, the response hasn't been that strong, to be honest. And on the other hand, the Russian services have adapted to the new situation. [00:20:19] Chris: Yeah, it has echoes a little bit of the way Russia used to use of left-wing terrorist groups in the sort of, um, '60s and '70s and '80s in Europe. [00:20:28] Florian: Yeah. Yeah, there are very, there are many similarities and there's also, I mean, it's, it's, most of this stuff that we're talking about, it's old KGB playbook. Um, and it's, it's, what is fascinating to see is, that now things are getting carried out that in the Cold War had just been, you know, just some plans, theoretical ideas of what can be done. Um, and they are now being carried out. I mean, this is, uh, in a way it's, it's more dangerous than during the, the Cold War time. [00:20:57] Chris: Mm-mm. No, indeed. Indeed. And, um, what kind of response do you think Russia actually expects from Western countries when they carry out these operations? [00:21:06] Florian: I think the honest answer would be, I guess, the Kremlin believes there will be none or just, or only a very limited reaction. They probably think the Europeans are not interested in a, uh, getting dragged into this conflict more than they have already been, um, dragged into the, the Ukraine situation because of the support for Ukraine. Uh, so the estimate in, in Moscow is Europe, um, European NATO, so to say, um, uh, wants to avoid military confrontation with Russia. So, as a consequence, Russia is testing NATO more and more with these kind of, of, of attacks and they're trying to test if NATO Article 5 -- um, I mean, uh, Article 5, meaning one NATO member, uh, one member of NATO is attacked and this is regarded as an attack on the alliance and then the others have to step in. Um, so Russia is trying to test, uh, um, Article 5. This is what NATO officials have been saying for some, some time now, uh, that they interpret all of this, all of these operations, all of these hybrid attacks, as a test for Article 5. Um, so yeah, they're testing us with these hybrid attacks and they hybrid attacks that they can deny at any time. Um, and I think one important aspect of the, of this sabotage campaign is also the fact that Russia does, does learn a lot from this-- [00:22:30] Chris: Mm. [00:22:31] Florian: Also about European reactions, about also our defense mechanisms and, uh, how security services operate. And they, they also, you know, they keep them busy. They keep European security services busy, maybe with the aim at the end that they are, that their professional agents -- their, their officers that are still around, probably some of them are being, you know, uh, smuggled back into Europe, but they can carry out more, I don't know, high, high sophisticated attacks or something else, you know, just to distract European security services. And this is what I heard from, from several sources, um, in Germany and France and Belgium and other countries that they said, you know, Russia knows that we're limited when it comes to resources for investigations, and so they're probably stretching this. And, but I, there's what I, what I told you about this, um, the fact that you, that you, the fact that you learn a lot from these attacks in the European, uh, reaction to it. I mean, one example would be just look at these drone sightings, these drones flying over military bases, um, and industrial sites as well. Um, these drones come in at high speed. Uh, some of them also at high altitude. They fly around for a few minutes and then they're gone. And in Germany, the military is not allowed to use force on German territory in a peacetime environment without, um, approval from Parliament. Uh, so it's not like, uh, you know, our military can just shoot down any drone that is, uh, is, uh, flying around. They are now trying, the German government, uh, is now trying, or, um, is, is, um, basically changing a law. [00:24:10] Chris: Yeah. [00:24:11] Florian: Uh, which would allow the military to support the police in drone defense. Um, but, in general, drone, defending against drones, detecting and shooting down drones is a task for police, but German police is not equipped well enough to do this. So, you see there is a weak point, a weakness. This is something that Russia has probably learned in recent years, um, that we are basically helpless when it comes to drones, defenseless. And another example would be these undersea cables, the, that were cut in the Baltic Sea by these vessels and tankers, some of them belonging to the so-called, um, shadow fleet, uh, which is, uh, you know, um, used to sell Russian oil all around the world. Um, the damage to these cables is sometimes very limited. Um, but nevertheless, you can learn a lot from these situations. Uh, when is the damage detected? Um, what is the first reaction? Uh, let's say by, I dunno, the Finnish Coast Guard or the Swedish Navy. Who is reacting? Who is communicating with what authority? What is going on? What are the skills and weaknesses of European coast guards, navies when it comes to underwater operations? When can they detect what, what, what's happening? So, there's a lot to gather here, there's, there's all of these layers of information and intelligence gathering also going on with these attacks. [00:25:34] Chris: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And it helps them, uh, build a, a picture really, doesn't it? So do you see signs that Russia's confidence might be misplaced? Are cracks starting to show? [00:25:44] Florian: Not really, I would say. I mean, it's still an ongoing campaign. There's still ongoing recruitment of low-level agents. Um, there might have been a small crack last year, and that has to do with this, um, so-called DHL case or plot or, um, inflammable parcels that were sent from, from Lithuania to Poland and, and UK in summer 2024. And maybe we come back, uh, to this case a little later. But, um, this was a very serious case and which could easily have killed people. And we heard from our sources here in Germany that, yeah, once the first packages, um, went up in flames, uh, US authorities and also some European authorities decided we need to talk to Russia, to the Russian side about this. And we heard that they communicated the message, um, "You have gone too far. That's enough. Stop it." And so, yeah, um, maybe this was something, um, what you would call this as the slide for a crack going on in this campaign, but it's, uh, but it's still ongoing. [00:26:54] Chris: Thanks for that, Florian. Well, let's take a break and be right back with more. So, I wanted to look at some examples of the operations that you've investigated. So, we'll start with drones, which you've already slightly covered, but there've been these sort of multiple drone incidents. So can you talk to us a bit more about them and what these drones are kind of being used for? [00:27:27] Florian: Drones is a, it's an interesting topic because there have been an increasing number of sightings and maybe one reason for that is people are more sensitive towards this topic and people are, you know, um, I don't know, uh, contacting the authorities more often when they see something suspicious. Um, it's, it's similar to, you know, what happens after a terrorist attack. People are calling the police because something strange is going on in their neighborhood. And, you know, people are more sensitive towards this topic, because there have been drone sightings, um, for many, many years, and I mean, people just buying drones to take some cool pictures and, and for, for, for harmless reasons. Um, so there are more drones now operated by private people, though. That, that's just reality. Uh, but there is an increasing number of sightings on, on, um, um, uh, military installations, military, uh, facilities. And there have been sightings, a lot of them, uh, where the drones are very suspicious because they are bigger, they're faster, they are just different from what you can just buy in, in an online shop. So yeah, there's an increasing number. There is, um, uh, there's a lot of investigations going on all around Germany right now. We had a lot of sightings in the coastal region when it comes to navy, uh, navy facilities. Uh, also at the Ramstein Air Base in the south of Germany. There's not a real clear picture of what is happening, but there is some indication that at least some of these drones were, um, uh, coming from Russian ships. [00:29:02] Chris: Oh, interesting. [00:29:03] Florian: They were started from the ships in the North Sea and, and, and the Baltic Sea. Maybe also ships of this, uh, shadow fleet. Um, because they can fly several hundred kilometers with these drones. Um, but there's no proof of this. We heard that there is, there, there are some indications, some information, some intelligence regarding this in other countries like Sweden, they have, um, they have come across information that, yeah, some regard as, um, an indicator that Russia is using also ships, um, to carry out these drone, drone surveillance flights. Um, yeah, this is, I mean, basically what the drone situation is. And it's, um, yeah, for, for, for people, it's just an interesting, um, thing to hear that you can fly a military surveillance, a military spy drone basically, over Germany and our authorities are not able to shoot them down, or not allowed to. [00:29:55] Chris: Mm-hmm. [00:29:55] Florian: I mean, it's just a, uh, it's, it's a, it's an interesting thing. And, and, uh, there's a lot of pressure on the government, uh, to do something about it because, I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a crazy situation if you just imagine, uh-- [00:30:07] Chris: Yeah. [00:30:07] Florian: Surveillance drones flying over the country. And, but also they had the same problem in the UK, same problem in the US. Um, there was also, there was this, um, 60 Minutes did a piece on, on, on drones recently, just a few weeks ago, and they also asked military and police in the US, What is going? Why can't you bring them down? And, uh, the, the main answer was, it's a capability gap. We just cannot bring them down. They are smaller than a plane, but bigger than a regular, harmless photographer drone. Um, so, yeah. [00:30:38] Chris: Well, yeah. And in the UK, um, any jamming is illegal. So, if you used a jammer to sort of bring the drone down, you're kind of breaking the law. So, because we had this instance at, um, I think it was Gatwick Airport nearly -- I think it was about 10 years ago now. I've lost track, it's been a long time -- and this, this Gatwick Airport drone syndrome that went on, um, for about three or four days where this drone kept getting cited around Gatwick and causing the airport to close operations for a bit. Um, and the police were semi-powerless, really, to do anything about it. And there's even speculation that the, the, the later drone sightings might actually have been the police drone that members of the public were seeing and, uh, caused some confusion. But, no, crazy. Crazy times. [00:31:20] Florian: Yeah, and I mean, uh, jamming at an airport is not a good idea because you will jam a lot of other stuff as well. And also shooting drones, uh, shooting at drones, and you don't know if there are explosives, uh, you know, put on these packages. You don't know where they go down. And just imagine, you know, having two or three drones, um, uh, packed with explosives, flying over an industrial, a chemical plant. I mean, it's-- [00:31:44] Chris: Oh, God. Yeah. [00:31:44] Florian: It's a dangerous thing, you know? [00:31:46] Chris: Well this is it. In many ways, this is why it's shocking there isn't really a proper strategy to deal with them, because if terrorists used them -- I mean, I, I, I witnessed, um, uh, a guy flying a drone near the MI6 building, and he got arrested quite quickly, but, um, but it, but he was, he made the mistake of being near the building when flying it. Had he been like half a mile down the road, it would've probably been a different situation. [00:32:08] Florian: Yeah. Or I, I mean, or just, just imagine that this drone is not, a drone is not being, um, uh, flown by a pilot, but it's, it's pre-programmed to fly on GPS space or whatever, so you don't even have someone standing there and, you know, flying the drone, but it's just starting flying around, going back to where it came from. And, but, but even detection is a huge problem. I heard from, from, uh, from several people working for police, also for, for private companies, telling me it's pretty hard to detect them. And, um, yeah, it's, it's an interesting issue. [00:32:42] Chris: Yeah, indeed. And also, um, the danger of them interfering with air traffic around a busy city. [00:32:47] Florian: Yes. Yes. [00:32:48] Chris: Do these, a lot of these drone sizings happen quite late at night? Or are they, do, do we know of any patterns? [00:32:53] Florian: Most of them actually happened, uh, happened at, at nighttime, or at least in the evening times. Um, but then you see, I saw footage, like amateur footage, so some people taking videos and photos of it, and you see that these drones, they are, uh, they have a light on, you know, they're blinking in the sky. [00:33:11] Chris: Yeah. [00:33:11] Florian: So, it's quite interesting. Probably meaning they want you to see them and then, I don't know, just feel defenseless because you cannot do anything about it, and, yeah. Some of them were even these fixed-wing, uh, drones. [00:33:26] Chris: Oh, were they? Ohhh. [00:33:27] Florian: Which is, uh, quite interesting because this is not something that you would use as an amateur photographer or something. This is just something far bigger and, yeah. [00:33:36] Chris: Yeah, most drones are like quadcopters. Yeah, yeah, indeed. Not the winged ones. No, that's, that's, uh, yeah, implies it's gonna go a great distance, et cetera. So, yeah. Now, um, there've been some, several cases of suspected sabotage against the German Navy, which is very serious. So, could you talk to us a little bit about what's sort of going on with that and what the German Navy is doing to prevent this? [00:33:59] Florian: There have been at least three cases, uh, of suspected, uh, sabotage with regards to the German Navy. All of them happened late last year or earlier this year. And it involved, in one case it involved a, uh, warship, uh, that is being built in Hamburg, and it's still with the, uh, ship manufacturer. So it was not, uh, it's, it's not, um, um, um, uh, at, it's an army facility, a a navy facility somewhere in a navy base, but it's still with the, with the, uh, ship building company. And, um, someone, uh, yeah, uh, or let's, let's say the other way around, kilograms of metal pieces ended up, uh, somewhere where they didn't belong in the engine, in the engine part of that, of that ship. And, um, there is a high suspicion that this was done, um, intentionally, that someone just put, I think it was around 30 kilos, 30 to 40 kilos of metal pieces, just some shrapnel pieces, um, into the engine of that ship. Um, and it could've done a lot of damage, but it was, uh, uh, I mean, it was discovered by someone at the, uh, at the shipping company, um, before that ship went out, uh, on sea for, for one of the first trips, uh, at sea. And, uh, there's another case where this happened at a, um, navy facility. Um, someone just cut cables on a ship, very important cables, like, uh, huge ones like, uh, I think it was even, uh, six, six or eight, uh, cables that were cut, um, uh, intentionally most likely. And then the last case that I'm aware of, um, was a ship at a navy facility in, uh, Wilhelmshaven, also at the German Baltic, uh, coast. And, uh, there was, a ship was there for, for maintenance, um, um, reasons and someone from a, um, from a company, from a company outside of the military, um, that was tasked to do the maintenance, um, put in oil. It was basically just oil. Uh, I don't think it was crude oil or something. It was oil and they put it into the drinking water system of, of that ship. [00:36:18] Chris: God. Yeah. [00:36:18] Florian: And, uh, so three cases that are now being investigated by police and also by the, by our, um, military intelligence, um, service. They're looking into these cases. Very serious ones. [00:36:28] Chris: Yeah. [00:36:29] Florian: And also the head of the German Navy said, um, we're seeing an increasing number targeting the navy. Um, they see an increasing number of people just running around navy facilities where they didn't, don't belong, just some people that -- there was a Chinese national and he said he was part of a, a tourist group, um, and he just wandered into this, this navy facility. Somehow he ended up there taking pictures. And, uh, there were also, uh, Russians, uh, on a, on a, on a ship, uh, a fishing vessel. Uh, just two guys, two or three guys on a small boat, fishing boat, and they ended up in the harbor, uh, right next to, to Navy, to German Navy ships. And then some, some of these cases are very suspicious. Um, so yeah, I mean, the head of the German Navy said we are targeted now in this hybrid, uh, hybrid warfare. [00:37:21] Chris: Yeah. And do we know at this stage if there were any German Navy personnel working on behalf of Russia involved in these sabotage operations, or is it mainly external people? [00:37:30] Florian: Um, we don't know if there were some people from the Navy, some members of the German military involved in this. This is all under ongoing investigation. [00:37:40] Chris: Yeah. [00:37:40] Florian: But what we know is, also from our journalistic uh, uh, investigation that we did into these sabotage acts, we know that there is a lot of money being offered to carry out attacks on high-profile targets, like, uh, a Navy ship or, or a tank or whatever. Um, that there are thousands of euros, tens of thousands of euros being offered for acts of sabotage on, on these, on such targets. So I'm, I mean, there's a lot of money in that game, but maybe there are also some people, they have different reasons. They're just frustrated with their, I don't know, uh, with the Army, with the Navy, uh, and during this attack, which is highly unlikely, I guess you wouldn't do that. I mean, it's, uh, in destroying or damaging a, a ship that is, uh, that costs hundreds of millions of euros. It's quite expensive, uh, material. That was being targeted. I don't know if it's just a frustrated, um, member of the Navy doing it, who hates his job or, I dunno. Um, but we know that there's a lot of money being offered for such attacks. [00:38:41] Chris: Yeah. Yeah, that's very worrying. And then there've been some sabotage suspects who've been arrested in Bavaria, and they were two sort of German Russians. Can you talk to us a little bit about that case? [00:38:52] Florian: Yeah. There were these two guys, um, uh, from, uh, Bayreuth. Um, they will be on trial soon in Munich, and it will be the first sabotage trial, um, in Germany. And yeah, they, uh, one of these guys, as I told you was um, already, he was in Ukraine. He was fighting in Eastern Ukraine for pro-Russian, uh, I think it was the, uh, some militia in Donetsk somewhere in 2017. And there are pictures of him, uh, armed with an assault rifle and, and uniform, uh, uh, and he was, uh, he was very open about this on social media. And then he came back to Germany and, uh, because, uh, if you, if you look into this case, you see it's, it's not a crime, you know, to join these, these militias in the east, in Eastern Ukraine. It was not a crime and it was not regarded as a crime. They were not labeled as terrorist organizations. So, he was not, um, prosecuted. He was not, you know, investigated. Uh, he was investigated last year or 2000, uh, 23 when he was approached by his former commander from Eastern Ukraine, a pro-Russian guy, and, uh, asking him to carry out operations in Germany. Um, then he, he asked one of his friends, someone that he knew from the area, also with Russian background, um, and they are now, uh, they will be put on trial and they're accused of, um, at least doing some surveillance and preparation for sabotage attacks. [00:40:25] Chris: So, Florian, let's take a look at the DHL case. Can you talk to us a little bit more about what's known about these explosive devices that have been found within DHL parcels? [00:40:33] Florian: Yeah. We have looked into this case quite extensively and, uh, in recent weeks, we, um, me and my colleagues, we traveled around, um, and we talked to, uh, investigators, prosecutors. We talked to, uh, also some suspects in this case, uh, which is quite interesting. Um, so yeah, what, what happened, um, was that in summer last year, uh, someone sent several packages, several parcels, uh, via mail, via, uh, DHL, um, to fake addresses and fake identities -- so, people that do not really exist, um, and addresses and they don't match up -- um, to the UK and also to Poland from Lithuania. So, these parcels were sent from Vilnius, um, to most of them to, to, uh, addresses in the UK. And then there was one package, um, that was set on fire by a, yeah, what was it? A timer-set bomb? It's not really an explosive, it's more an inflammable device. [00:41:40] Chris: Yeah. Got you. [00:41:41] Florian: And, um, but one of them, uh, yeah, one of them just, just, um, um, um, uh, went up in a, uh, container in a, in a mail container thing at the airport in Leipzig, in east of Germany. Uh, the other one in Birmingham. [00:41:59] Chris: Yeah. [00:41:59] Florian: Um, and then there was also one in Poland, uh, also, you know, going up in flames. And the investigators found out that there were several parcels sent by one person from Lithuania, and they also found, uh, parcels that did not explode, or, you know, um, uh, did not go up in flames. Uh, so they could, uh, um, um, yeah, analyze, uh, the package and the device. And it was basically, uh, like a massage pillows that you could use for your neck and also, uh, sex toys. [00:42:36] Chris: Oh, interesting. Yeah. [00:42:37] Florian: And they were prepared with a form of explosive -- it was, uh, magnesium-based, um, uh, stuff that was put in there. And, uh, something that you wouldn't see if they, uh, if these parcels are checked and X-rayed somewhere, you wouldn't really recognize that this was something dangerous and harmful, uh, that was hidden in there. And, uh, yeah, it's, it's super dangerous, it's a super, it was a super dangerous device because it was magnesium-based. Uh, that means they can go up in flames even without oxygen. And, um, so even if, just imagine a parcel like that would, you know, go off in a, in an airplane. [00:43:17] Chris: Yeah. [00:43:18] Florian: And even if a pilot is, you know, somehow stopping oxygen flow and, you know, this would still be, uh, go up in flames, it would still burn. And, yeah, in the end, uh, uh, nobody was harmed, luckily. And, uh, uh, in the case of this parcel, uh, uh, that burned, um, at the airport in Leipzig, there was just pure luck because it was about to be put on a plane, uh, also to the UK and the plane had a delay. So, that was the only reason why it didn't go up in the plane, but on the ground at the Leipzig Airport. Uh, there is investigation going on, and in several countries there are authorities investigating, also talking to each other. There's investigation going on in Lithuania and Poland, UK, and also in Germany. And from what we know now is these were basically low-level agents, people that were contacted to do, uh, to carry out such operation. Several people involved, one of them just bringing these devices to a certain parking lot in Lithuania, another one picking up that car with these packages, bringing it to the, to the mail station, to the postal station, a post office in, in Lithuania. So, it was basically several people involved in this chain, and none of them had a full picture of -- probably, we don't know -- but probably none of them had a full picture of, uh, what was about to happen. Maybe one of them thought, I don't know, maybe he knew that he was doing something illegal, but he thought it's drugs or something. Uh, I'm just, you know, sending over some drugs to the UK and I'm doing it for a little money. Um, but in the end, these were professionally built, uh, uh, explosive devices and investigators believed that they were built by the Russian military intelligence, GRU. And there's also information, um, regarding other packages that were sent to the United States and to Canada. And they did not contain, as far as we know, um, did not contain any, any dangerous, uh, uh, stuff, any dangerous material, but what they allegedly contained was a tracing device. So, the idea that the investigators have is there's probably a test run for mail going to the United States and Canada as well, to see how long a package would be in transit, how long it would be in customs, how long, uh, the whole thing, um, would take. Uh, and this is even more dangerous if you just imagine that DHL, uh, FedEx and others, they're using civilian airplanes to bring international mail via the Atlantic. I mean, uh, to Canada and to, to, to, uh, the United States from Europe. So, it's, it's not only these, uh, DHL planes, it's also just a regular civilian plane where they put on not only your luggage, but also international mail in that airplane. [00:46:23] Chris: Yeah, yeah. It's sort of getting into the, do you remember the liquid bomb plot? It's sort of getting into that territory where you could theoretically cause airliners to fall out of the sky or cargo planes fall out of the sky onto a busy place. I mean, good God, uh, you know, the imagination can go wild with this. It's terrible. [00:46:39] Florian: Yeah, and this is why the whole plot is something within European security agencies, they were regarding as the peak, the peak of what has happened when it comes to sabotage and something that they had to intervene on a higher level. And this is, uh, I mean, we heard that the United States and also some European countries decided to talk to Russia on their back channels and to make them, to make clear to them that this, that they have gone too far and that they should stop it. And, um, we have not heard that any new packages, explosive devices have been sent. Uh, we don't know about this, but, uh, it seems like it was something that they tried out last summer. [00:47:22] Chris: Yeah, yeah. And it's a tactic that they could use if there were an open conflict, I suppose. It's, uh-- [00:47:28] Florian: Open conflict and dis, uh, I mean, just disturbing and, and, uh, international, um, flights and, and, you know, logistics and, and also just showing that they could do it. So, um, and showing how vulnerable the whole system of, of, of international, um, uh, flights and, and, and logistics is. [00:47:48] Chris: Yeah, yeah. Worrying, worrying. Well, um, another cheery one is, um, there was an alleged assassination plot in Frankfurt, and it was a little bit unusual, this one, because they were targeting a, a, a former member of the Ukrainian military who was actually of Georgian descent. So, can you talk to us a little bit about this? [00:48:05] Florian: Yeah. It's, it's a very fascinating case and it's a very strange case that is now being investigated by German police. And there are three people, uh, in prison now, uh, waiting for the trial. Um, and it involves a Ukrainian man, uh, Ukrainian national. He contacted, uh, German police last year and he said that he was contacted by someone claiming to be Ukrainian intelligence and -- because this guy came to Germany as a refugee shortly after the war started in, in February, uh, 2022 -- uh, he said, yeah, I was approached by this person. Um, uh, the, the guy's name is Yaroslav and he approached me, uh, via Signal, uh, that's now very famous app. [00:48:50] Chris: Yes. [00:48:50] Florian: Um, and he asked me to carry out surveillance on Russians in Germany. He asked me for a favor and then this man called, said, uh, told the German, told German police, I think this is a trap. I believe it's not Ukrainian intelligence, but it's the Russians, uh, behind it, and reason being, I am wanted by Russian authorities. And he said, I am wanted because they regard me as a war criminal. And then German police was looking into this case and they believed him. And they said, Okay, so maybe you should just tell this Yaroslav guy who contacted you that you are ready to, to do a job for him, but you want to meet in person. So, they set up this meeting and German police was watching this meeting, there was surveillance put on there, and uh, all of a sudden, three people appeared. Uh, and the meeting was set in, uh, was, was planned for, for, I don't know, mid-time, some afternoon time in Frankfurt, in a cafe, and then three suspect, suspicious people turned up. And, um, police arrested them later on when they were in their car, you know, um, leaving the area, they were arrested. They found several passports. They also found, uh, fake passports, I think, and they found in the car a GPS tracking device. So, the investigators believe that these three people were hired by Russian intelligence to look for this Ukrainian person, for this Ukrainian guy that is wanted by Russia. Um, and then maybe, I don't know, just trace his movements, just, you know, look where he's living, where he is hiding, uh, and then maybe even assassinate him. [00:50:41] Chris: Yeah. [00:50:41] Florian: So, this could be an idea, or then to send an assassin to do it. And we looked into this case, I did a lot of, uh, uh, work on this case. And, um, yeah, we found out, also quite interesting, we used, um, some, uh, uh, facial recognition software. And this, this man, this Ukrainian man, the, the potential victim, uh, he really fought, uh, for Ukrainian military. And he is seen in a video where Russian prisoners of war are being executed by the Ukrainian military in the early weeks of the war. And you can see him, uh, in that video. And he has a very interesting, uh, um, um, history. Uh, this guy used to be a former security guard, uh, a bodyguard of, uh, the former Georgian president, Saakashvili. And he is a Georgian who came to Ukraine and he fought in a Georgian unit of the Ukrainian military after the war started. And because of his service in the Ukrainian military, um, allegedly the Ukrainian intelligence service provided him with a Ukrainian identity and a new passport. Um, so, and then they told him to leave the country because Russia was looking for him. Uh, so, quite an interesting case. We also know that this potential victim is now also being investigated for potential war crimes that he committed. And there are many similarities to this Tiergarten, uh, uh, murder case, uh, a few years back where this, uh, Chechen guy was, um, uh, assassinated in Berlin, um, by this FSB operative. Um, so it's, it's quite similar. I was told by investigators that they really regard this as a "Tiergarten Murder: Part 2," so to say. [00:52:42] Chris: Yeah, yeah. [00:52:43] Florian: Uh, because it's a similar thing and, um, it's not on trial yet, the whole case, but it's, it's quite interesting to see that Russia is still going after these people, probably. And they're able to find them and they're using these low-level agents to, to, to monitor and maybe even kill them. [00:53:00] Chris: Mm-mm. It's a bit like with the, with the Havana syndrome situation. The, some of the early targets of that were connected to, um, a joint US-Ukrainian operation, where allegedly some Russian soldiers were killed. Um, and it does sound like obviously, uh, Russia are doing what they can to target people who are connected to deaths of Russian personnel that they can find, yeah. [00:53:23] Florian: I, I've, I've spoken to people telling me from the intelligence side, they said, yeah, I mean it's Russia regards these people as legitimate targets and they are hunting them down. They're on their most-wanted lists. They're regarded as terrorists or whatever, um, enemies of the state. And they say, yeah, I mean Russia is, they say the United States, they are using drones to hunt them down, we are using other means to hunt, to hunt terrorists down. And, but, uh, uh, the big difference is, uh, the United States, they are doing it mostly in war zones, um, or conflict areas, and Russia is doing it in Europe, in the streets of Europe. [00:54:08] Chris: Yeah, yeah. No, it's worrying. Well, let's take a break and be right back with more. How are NATO and the EU security services then responding to this, all these things, this sort shadow war that we're in? [00:54:35] Florian: There is, I, I would say, I, I would say in certain parts, uh, especially when it comes to the situation in the Baltic Sea, um, the hybrid war there, there has been a very strong reaction now. There is this NATO task force that is now, you know, monitoring all the Russian ships, everything that's going on there. Also, the shadow fleet, there has been, uh, ships have been confiscated. Uh, also European, I think it was Finnish -- was it special forces from Finland? -- who entered this Russian ship or this, uh, yeah, it's basically a Russian ship. Uh, it's used by Russia to sell oil. Um, they entered this ship, they investigated this crew. Um, so there's a lot of stuff going on with regards to the Baltic Sea and, and the hybrid, hybrid warfare that's going on there. On the other hand, yes, there has also been a shift in the focus on these, more on these topics. And there has been a, uh, a new approach towards this low-level agent thing similar, um, to investigating terrorism cases. But it's quite hard because on the, at first some of these cases do not appear to be Russian-related sabotage. Some of them are just false flag. We had, we had incidents where people thought it was, you know, people manipulating cars and people would think these were climate change activists, people that were just, you know, uh, and also they left some messages behind, um, claiming to be, uh, uh, supporters of the Green Party or whatever party. And it turned out it was just some people that were hired by Russian intelligence, just some low-level agents steering up anger in society and, you know, trying to influence elections and stuff. So it, it's not that easy to, to investigate this, but there has been a stronger response now. It is, um, more openly, NATO is talking about this. I mean, we, we had an interview with a NATO official for our documentary. We have a documentary also coming up later this month on, on, on espionage and sabotage in Europe. And they're openly saying, you know, we are engaged in this war now, there is, uh, a hybrid war fought against us. Um, and, uh, there are lots of attacks and it's increasing and it will, it will also, you know, continue even after there will be a ceasefire in Ukraine. Probably this will, will go on because Russia has decided that this conflict has to go on, um, with the West. And uh, so there has been some response, some stronger than others. Um, yeah. [00:57:06] Chris: Yeah, yeah. You mentioned earlier, obviously about the drones, but are there any other specific weaknesses that Russia's exploiting that we're still not addressing properly? [00:57:15] Florian: I would say that there is a lot going on in the sphere of disinformation in, uh, malign influence operations, uh, interference in elections, um, also in the cyber, cyber area. Um, when it comes to cyber, it's quite interesting to see, there is cyber crime, there are these ransomware groups, but there is strong indication that some of these criminal gangs are now working in favor of Russia and the Kremlin. And they're carrying out operations, um, maybe even, uh, even hand-in-hand cooperating with Russian intelligence, uh, because they are targeting certain Western targets, critical infrastructure. And yeah, there is a weakness because, from the European law enforcement side, you always need some kind of a label that you can put on a criminal. You're just a regular criminal, or a cyber criminal, or whatever. But there is something in between and there's a mixture of it, uh, now happening. And especially with the low-level agents, you see, I mean, these are normal, uh, regular crimes, so to say. Setting, setting fire to a shopping mall is, is an arson attack. It's just, it's a crime, but doing it for a state is something different. And, yeah, there are weaknesses in this. There's weaknesses in and, and, um, also prosecuting these people, um, from the side of our justice system. We need to look at, is there something more than espionage, but less than terrorism, something in between-- [00:58:45] Chris: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. [00:58:45] Florian: That we need to, to focus on? Um, and all, yeah, and especially when it comes to, uh, malign influence in a political area, um, in Germany, this is not regarded as a crime. I mean, we have, we have espionage being a crime, but what if it does not involve secret information that have been passed, uh, to another state, but it's acting in favor of another, of an enemy state? Uh, this is not regarded as a crime, and it's a huge problem because we have several of these cases, mostly involving the far-right political parties, the AfD party, um, uh, some indication that people have received money to do certain things. Um, and it's, it's quite hard, um, going after them and prosecuting them from the law enforcement side. Yeah, and there has been this, uh, capability gap that has been obvious now with drones. Uh, this is, this is one thing. And also just in general to see that there needs to be a certain awareness of what is happening. Also, when it comes to communication, secure communication -- I mean, the United States now has this, this, this, this huge topic with this Signal group -- but we had that as well, uh, in the German military. I mean, we had a, we had people, high-ranking people from German Air Force, uh, talking, on an unsecure line, talking about, uh, the weapon system, Taurus, which is a very sensitive thing. It's, it's like a, a, a cruise missile. Um, and there's a discussion about, uh, if Germany should give it to Ukraine or not, because you could use it on targets far, deep in Russia, far-reaching in, inside Russia. And the German government was not willing to give it to Ukraine. [01:00:28] Chris: Yeah. [01:00:28] Florian: And, uh, yeah, there was this talk by these high-ranking officials of the, of German Air Force talking about what this weapon system can do, even talking about how the German chancellor and why he's not willing to give it to Ukraine. And one of the people involved in this, in this conference call, he was, at that time, he was in a hotel in Singapore and he just used an app and the Wi-Fi system of, uh, of the hotel in Singapore. [01:00:54] Chris: Oh, my goodness. [01:00:55] Florian: Uh, and what they were talking was basically secret, uh, top-secret stuff, uh, on a non-secure, uh, communication system. So, there needs to be an awareness of what can happen. And, and I mean, Russia, Russia listened into this call and they put it on the internet so that, so now we all know about this. Um, yeah, so this, this is also a major weakness just having people, you know, think differently about what's happening now. [01:01:21] Chris: Mm. Yeah, yeah. Well, um, are there any warning signs that there's something more high-profile, violent operations that could be on the horizon? [01:01:30] Florian: I guess if you look at this Frankfurt case involving this Georgian, Ukrainian, uh, national, which is a potential assassination plot, I would say. Then you have the assassination of this Russian helicopter pilot in the south of Spain. [01:01:47] Chris: Yes. [01:01:48] Florian: Um, the, the, he, he defected to Ukraine, and then there was a press conference in Ukraine where he talked about how he defected with his helicopter to Ukraine. Uh, yeah, and then he thought he would live a safe life in south of Spain, and then someone came and killed him and shot him. So, I would say when it comes to assassination to, um, you know, following, uh, monitoring, uh, journalists, uh, exile opposition figures, Russian people, it's a very dangerous situation. I think that, uh, there are no limits to the Russian security services in that way. They, they can operate in that area, whatever, however they. I would say also this DHL, the inflammable parcel, uh, plot shows that Russia is willing to, to escalate in, in the hybrid warfare. This is, I mean, this is probably the, the best description of it: they are willing to escalate within what we would call this, this hybrid, uh, zone. And it's, uh, it's, yeah, it's basically, it's similar to terrorism, well, what is happening. And I would say what is really worrying, um, on the other hand is maybe -- or, uh, the other way around -- what if, let's say, flying a drone over a military insulation or an industrial place, what if it is not just to, you know, uh, I don't know, scare people or show them, you know, this, we can do this, you have nothing to defend against, uh, these drones? What if they are using it to gather information for the next step, which would be military escalation, confrontation? What if Russia is using it for something that people in the military call shaping the battlefield? So, you know, gathering more and more information. And, and some people would say, I mean, Russia has spy satellites. Why do they need drones? It's a different thing, having a satellite looking at the navy base, or flying a drone. Getting, you know, a clearer picture, a more detailed picture, maybe even a 3D kind of a, a picture of an, of an area. So this is also information that can be used in a military way, and this is very worrying to think about that maybe they are preparing for something bigger. [01:04:09] Chris: What should journalists, policymakers, or even ordinary people be paying attention to right now? [01:04:14] Florian: I would say that there's, there's a term, uh, that our chancellor -- now, he's still the chancellor. He will be, he will not be a chancellor in a few weeks, I guess, because there's a new government being formed -- but Chancellor Scholz said after the, the war started in Ukraine, he talked about "Zeitenwende." So, a huge thing that is now going on, you know, uh, having more money to spend on military, getting re-arm, be uh, be able to defend yourself, um, you know, having a European defense, um, policy, uh, this is all true. What we need is, we also need a Zeitenwende on the intelligence side. We also need security services that, that can adapt to the new situation. We need to talk more about, uh, data sharing with police. We need to, to talk about, um, also European, uh, a more European approach because there is the new situation with the United States, with the US government. And so I think to form an intelligence alliance in Europe -- some, some even, uh, are talking about the Euro, the "Euro Eyes." Not the Five Eyes, but the Euro Eyes. [01:05:23] Chris: Yes, Euro Eyes. [01:05:24] Florian: Um, so maybe, maybe think about this idea because, uh, this, the conflict with Russia, this conflict situation will go on. Um, there are no signs that Mr. Putin is, uh, willing to deescalate. Um, uh, on the contrary, I mean, so we need, uh, yeah, capable security services to work on this. We need equipped police to do, uh, you know, to have, uh, an efficient drone defense. Um, and we need a society that has to be resilient when it comes to these attacks, and that means also thinking about the possibility that it could be Russia behind some of these attacks. Yeah, not just do not freak out, do not, I don't know, whatever. It's just, it's just a new reality that this happens, and, um, yeah, we need a different approach in society when it comes to, um, when it comes to the security aspects. I mean, uh, on the, on the drone side, you can see that. I mean, people are calling the police more often saying, I saw a suspicious drone. And, um, I, I saw this in, uh, in, in London, in the, in the subway system in London, you see that there have, they have been these, these, these posters. If you see something suspicious, you know, call the police. This is the new reality. It's, it's, uh, it's, it's not a nice and very, very friendly, uh, thing to think about saboteurs running around, but this is the new reality. And yeah, for policymakers, um, hard decisions are coming up, you know, with defense spending, um, um, you know, putting money in, in security-related stuff and, and not in social welfare, for example. It's a hard decision. And it's, it's not easy winning elections that way, but, um, this is a new reality. [01:07:13] Chris: And what's the public response been to this, sort of, increasing threat from Russia? [01:07:18] Florian: Some parts of the German public, they, they just call it hysterical. And um, they say, you know, now you see Russia, or now you claim Russia is behind everything. Uh, oh, it's all, you know, "evil Russia." And this is not true. I mean, nobody says that everything that happens here, um, uh, everything that goes up in flames, it's a Russian, Russian low-level agents. That's, that's not true. But you have to adapt to the new situation, and there are these cases and an increase in cases. And, um, so, there has been a, well, a huge part of German society probably has adapted to the new situation, but what will be a huge challenge, and one of the things for the government to deal with is the question of conscription for the military, how to get German military on track when it comes to NATO. Um, and, and, uh, yeah, just, you know, being prepared, uh, to fight a war so that you don't have to fight a war. And, um, we have not really started to talk about this. This whole debate has not really started in German society. I guess the new government will be formed shortly, I think, and maybe then they will start, you know, getting this debate running, uh, in German society and will be very interesting what the outcome will be. Because we don't have, uh, conscription, we don't have, um, uh, we have a German military that was, you know, nobody was really putting money into the military after the 19, 19, 1990s. So, um, yeah, we have to get back on track and, um, that involves a lot of money. [01:08:59] Chris: Yeah, indeed. Well, is there anything else you'd like to add before we wrap up today? Anything that's important to you? [01:09:05] Florian: Oh, I think we covered, uh, a lot. I mean, it's a huge, huge space and, uh, yeah, I would be quite interesting to hear, um, in yeah, how the situation is in other countries. Um, because I know that in Scandinavia, also UK, especially the Baltic states and Poland, um, they're highly aware that this stuff is going on and, um, uh, would be interesting to see if, if there are other countries, uh, in the near future that also will deal with, with such, uh, um, um, activities and campaigns and what their response to the whole thing will be. [01:09:39] Chris: Yeah, yeah. When's your film out? [01:09:42] Florian: Uh, we have a documentary coming up on April, uh, 23rd. [01:09:46] Chris: April 23rd, fantastic. And where will people be able to find that? [01:09:49] Florian: Uh, you will find it in, uh, online at, at the ARD, which is the, the huge, uh, German public broadcaster, similar to the, to the BBC. And, uh, yeah, it'll be a 45-minute documentary on the sabotage campaign and espionage campaign in Europe, and we are, we will focus also on this, the DHL parcel plot and others. And yeah, we talked to NATO officials, we talked officials in Poland and Lithuania. Uh, in the UK, uh, we covered this trial of the Bulgarian nationals in, in London. [01:10:21] Chris: Fantastic, fantastic. Well, I look forward to seeing that and, uh, thank you for your time today. Where can listeners find out more about you and maybe even connect with you if they wish? [01:10:30] Florian: Yeah, I mean, the easiest thing would be to connect via social media and you can find me on Bluesky and also on X uh, still. Uh, and just, yeah, just type in my name, you'll, you'll find my account, you'll, you'll, uh, be able to connect. And I will post most of my, uh, stuff that I publish on these social networks. [01:10:48] Chris: Excellent. Well, thank you for joining me today, Florian. It's been a really great to chat with you. [01:10:52] Florian: Yeah, thank you so much. [01:11:25] Announcer: Thanks for listening. This is Secrets and Spies.