[00:00:00] Announcer: Due to the themes of this podcast, listener discretion is advised. Lock your doors, close the blinds, change your passwords. This is Secrets and Spies. Secrets and Spies is a podcast that dives into the world of espionage, terrorism, geopolitics, and intrigue. This podcast is produced and hosted by Chris Carr. [00:00:37] Chris Carr: On today's podcast, I'm joined by author and journalist Jeremy Hurewitz, and we take a look at his book, Sell Like a Spy, which is all about, sort of, lessons from the world of espionage that can be applied to the world of business. So, hope you find this episode interesting and enjoyable. Thank you for watching, and thank you for listening. Take care. [00:00:54] Announcer: The opinions expressed by guests on Secrets and Spies do not necessarily represent those of the producers and sponsors of this podcast. [00:01:17] Chris: Jeremy, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing? [00:01:19] Jeremy Hurewitz: I'm doing well, Chris. Great to be with you today. [00:01:21] Chris: For the benefit of listeners, please could just tell us a little bit about yourself. [00:01:24] Jeremy: Yeah, sure thing. Uh, I grew up in the New York area, went overseas right after college, one of those stories about, you know, going abroad as a young man with a backpack and a guitar. Uh, kind of kicked around Europe for a while before settling in Prague and getting into journalism. Lived in Prague for seven years, uh, and then moved to China and spent another couple years reporting from Asia. Before moving, uh, back to New York and, uh, getting involved in the field of, uh, corporate security, corporate espionage, corporate intelligence, however you want to put it, where I worked extensively, not only with um, members of the intelligence community, but law enforcement, FBI, military, special forces, Secret Service. And, um, thinking for years on these details I, I came up with Sell Like a Spy as a result and so I do that. I wrote the book, which I'm sure we'll chat about a bit, and I, and I also am a strategic advisor to a corporate intelligence firm called Intrafor International, very interesting firm. Um, and that's a bit about me. [00:02:22] Chris: Yeah, fantastic. So what was that transition like from being a journalist through into sort of corporate security and private intelligence? [00:02:30] Jeremy: Yeah. Well, you know, I came back to New York and I wanted to get out of the media world and try something else, and people directed me to this world of, of corporate security, corporate intelligence. And most of the people that work in this world have government experience, but they, they do, um, appreciate journalists for our ability to kind of investigate, write quickly, and write well. And I had experience in China, which was an extremely hot market at the time. So they, the transition was good, you know, it was, uh, relevant. So, um, it went well. [00:03:01] Chris: Yeah, well, how does private intelligence work and are there sort of legal restrictions in how these companies operate? Because there's been some stories in the last couple of years of like former CIA officers working, I think it was in Dubai or something, uh, developing spy software and all sorts of things. You usually hear the, the bad side of this world, but it'd be interesting to get a kind of rounded picture. [00:03:20] Jeremy: Yeah, you do typically hear about the bad actors, the people who act unethically. You know, I've avoided those types of firms, uh, in, in my work. Um, most of the operators in this space are reputable organizations. What I tell people is that a lot of these organizations, I, I think, to their detriment, have expanded beyond their initial remit. So, going from security firms, whether it's physical security, site security assessments, and you know, kind of investigations and all that, a lot of them have expanded to, like, eDiscovery and all sorts of things, and I think it's diluted the product. Um, but in terms of your, your ethical aspect of it, the, the industry kind of operates in an ethical gray area. So, you know, one of the things that you think about, I, I do a lot of work collecting human intelligence on say, reputational background checks. And there's a lot in this world about whether you should pretext or not. Is it, can you, you know, call somebody up and say, "Hey, I'm an HR recruiter and I'd like to ask you questions about Chris," you know? But I don't do that. My guiding light is that I, I tend not to lie to people. Uh, but I am, I do have credible cover as a journalist. I still write regularly for a variety of publications and, you know, I, I, I, I sort of sometimes work in the gray area asking people questions in that kind of way. So I have some experience with that. Um, I never broke the law. I never would break the law. Uh, just like I say in the intelligence world, uh, when talking about government spies, there's no license to kill in, in this industry. We, we try to stay on the right side of the law, but there are, um, ambiguities, um, where I don't particularly like to get involved. So say like trash diving, you know, is, uh, something that people will do to collect information on people. It's, uh, kind of a gray area once again. Um, it's, it's quasi-legal, but, you know, I don't really want to be associated with dumpster diving, so I don't get involved in any of that. But as you pointed out, there are people in the industry with intelligence backgrounds, security backgrounds that will do unethical things for their clients. So, you know, you have to be careful of those types. [00:05:18] Chris: Yeah, and are there, I suppose, because they're differing laws in the UK and America and even different states, does that affect the remit of what some agencies do? [00:05:27] Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, you know, there's, there's elements of, you know, what information is is protected and what isn't. Certain bank secrecy laws that vary, uh, you know, country by country. You know, different cultural approaches regionally that will color things. So yeah, you want to make sure as a firm operating internationally, you understand the legal landscape. [00:05:45] Chris: No, definitely. Yeah, because you don't want to, because it, it's been a thing in the UK in the last few years where, um, like former intelligence officers and stuff have been sort of hired by Russian oligarchs to follow people and things like that. And it sort of, kind of gets into this sort of murky territory. And there's a brilliant author, Charles Beaumont, who used to work for MI6, who works in private intelligence. He's written a novel about it and um, and part of it, the inspiration for that novel is because he got a bit disenchanted with a lot of former intelligence officers who were kind of in a sense, in the private field working for the opposition, so to speak. I dunno if you've experienced any of those sort of things. [00:06:21] Jeremy: Yeah, well, I mean, part--it's a great point you're making there--part of it is also as, uh, you know, a firm that cares about its reputation, you want to make sure, you know, knowing who your clients are, you know? Most the firms that I've worked with would not take a Russian oligarch as a client because, uh, you know, they don't want to support such individuals. So, you know, understanding who's hiring you as as well and what the mission is and whether you're comfortable with it, is important, uh, as well for you to, you know, make your own choices. [00:06:48] Chris: Yeah, yeah. Thank you for that. So, um, let's talk about Sell Like a Spy. So, why did you write this book and how did you go about doing it? [00:06:55] Jeremy: Yeah, thanks for that question. I, you know, for years working with intelligence officers, back to the earliest days when I transitioned out of the media, and maybe that was the, the most profound moment, just watching these people and, and the incredible social skills they have. And even moving into client meetings where, you know, the former case officer that I was going to the meetings with would, would tell me how much of a, you know, arrogant guy this person was, somebody in finance who had a big job and how, you know, annoying they could be and how towering their ego was, and then to watch them get into the meeting and just completely work the guy over and use these incredible social skills to connect, disarm, and influence this person. So, I just started really paying close attention to how these people work. Uh, you know, learned to ask them certain questions, which is also part of tradecraft, too, because obviously former spies are cagey about what they know and how they learned it and all of that. But, you know, they, they, they will answer some questions as they do in my book. Um, and uh, so I started learning directly from them and using the tradecraft in my, uh, everyday life and in my career. And I learned from, um, you know, others with government backgrounds. Um, one of the firms I worked for, a British firm, actually, Chris, um, that specializes in kidnap-for-ransom negotiation. I learned some incredible things from former chief hostage negotiators at the FBI. Skills of social influence, it's known. Things like detecting deception, diffusing difficult encounters, uh, negotiation tactics, mirroring tactics, and, uh, you know, using all these things and, and thinking about them for quite a while, I, uh, I had been thinking about the concept of Sell Like a Spy. And also it, it's kind of a memoir, you know? I had some, you know, incredible experiences overseas. This industry is a very colorful one. I, I call it the biggest industry that no one's ever heard of, you know, a multi-billion dollar industry. But the corporate security industry's not well known, even though it quietly influences foreign policy and business decisions, uh, deeply behind the scenes. So I've been thinking about this during Covid, you know, one of the many that came to the realization that, Hey, I don't want to go back to an office, I don't want to work, work full time for anybody anymore, I want to work for myself. So I said, now's the time to write this book and start looking to share the lessons of this idea and this program that I've developed with corporate teams and lawyers and all of that. [00:09:09] Chris: Yeah, it makes sense. And there's some, I think, you know, this book, um, away from obviously, uh, you know, you talk a bit about sort of how to use these skills for sales, it's actually quite good for aspiring novelists, et cetera, to write authentically about some of the skills spies use or intelligence officers. We use the correct parlance, but it's, uh, yeah, it's a really, really interesting book. [00:09:29] Jeremy: And thank you. And I, and I do have a novel about corporate security that my agent is currently shopping, and I talk about some of those same skills. There's a scene in which the, uh, the officer is handling kind of an unwitting agent and getting her to use some of the skills I actually write about in the book. So, hopefully that'll see the light of day. [00:09:46] Chris: Yeah, well please come back when it does. [00:09:48] Jeremy: Sure thing. [00:09:49] Chris: It'd be good to have you back on. So, um, can you talk to us a bit about sort of the true work of spies, because a lot of people have misunderstandings about what spies actually do, and kind of what skills they use in the field to recruit sources, which is sort of the bread and butter of spy work, so to speak, isn't it? [00:10:05] Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, I kick off almost every talk I do, uh, with kind of the idea of misconceptions about spies. And they're, you know, wholesale basically. You know, I, I point out that, you know, the James Bond idea of a spy, uh, is a fallacy. You know, like the handsome dapper, great looking spy. Of course, they're a good looking spies, but there's a joke that spies are medium everything, for the most part. Medium height. Medium stature. And I ask audiences, you know, if you're a spy at a diplomatic event, is it better to be someone who's a heartthrob that everyone can't take their eyes off of, remembers tracks around the room, or is it better to be someone a little more average-looking, that can move in and out of conversations, not necessarily be carefully remembered and, you know, the answer's obvious. Um, the other thing is, you know, uh, sticking with James Bond, maybe, you know, the idea of gunfights and car chases. You know, as one spy said to me, if you're involved in any of that, something went extremely wrong. For the most part, spies are relationship managers, you know? And spies--well, who we call spies--often look upon the agent as the actual spy. You know, they're their handler, they're, you know, they're not typically the person who's swinging into windows and taking pictures of secret documents, you know? And a lot of things do happen, I suppose, like that, and there are kind of paramilitary officers within the CIA who do incredible acts of bravery. But for the most part, you know, the, the case officers think their agents are the spies, collecting the intelligence and sharing it with them, and they're the relationship manager who needs to leverage elite social skills to get to know people they, you know, don't necessarily like or would spend time with, you know? And so the, the tradecraft is often, um, how to, you know, listen well, how to, you know, elicit information, how to connect with people that they would otherwise want nothing to do with, um, and, and use those skills. [00:11:50] Chris: Yeah, very useful skills. Now, one interesting thing came up in your book about apparently the CIA extensively recruit Mormons. Why is that? [00:11:57] Jeremy: Yeah, it's an interesting tidbit that I, I point out to crowds sometimes, too. Well, you know, there's some good reasons. First of all, um, the Mormon community is a cohesive, conservative, patriotic community, which means that they're easier to background check. Um, you know, uh, they can count on their patriotism. I have a colorful way of putting this in the book, which I won't necessarily repeat right now, but let's just say that maybe the Mormons will be less likely to be involved in some salacious scandal overseas. Um, and, you know, critically, they often have experience on mission trips where they go overseas as younger people to proselytize, and they, they typically, you know, may--and I think it's admirable--pick up local languages to do that. So, the experience of navigating foreign cultures and picking up esoteric languages is also an advantage. So, though, for some of those reasons, they make good recruits. [00:12:45] Chris: Yeah, yeah. No, indeed. That makes a lot of sense. So, uh, what can we learn from spies to have a better conversation? [00:12:51] Jeremy: So many things. Um, you know, one, one of the things that, uh, I talk about is, uh, the idea of, um, uh, how should we put it? Just elicitation, you know, like the, the, I say that whether you're a spy, a salesperson, or a journalist, when you meet somebody of interest, you want to learn all about that person, but if you start peppering somebody with very direct questions, sometimes really on the nose questions, you'll elicit a response that's the opposite of what you're after. Defensiveness, suspicions, cynicism about your intentions. So, I teach the skill of elicitation as a way to, um, you know, get at information in a conversation in a more circumspect manner. So, uh, there's a lot of subtle ways you can leverage, uh, you know, our evolution, behavioral science, and, and, and talk about getting people to respond in a certain way by leveraging those tricks, those, those aspects of our, our common heritage and behavior, to, uh, get them to tell you things and get them to build rapport. Uh, so that's one of the ways that spies do that in conversation, have better conversations and navigate and direct those conversations in ways, uh, that suit their goals. [00:13:58] Chris: You mentioned in the book about mirroring. [00:14:00] Jeremy: Yeah. [00:14:00] Chris: Can you talk to us a little bit about mirroring, because it's a very interesting kind of concept that. [00:14:03] Jeremy: When I'm working with teams, a lot of times people have some experience of what mirroring is. It's, it's talked about in the business community. The physical replication of another person's body language has been shown over and over again for decades now to be highly effective subconsciously in building rapport with someone. And it, I, I describe it as augmenting what comes naturally to us. You know, when we're in the crib as infants, we look around and mirror the behavior of people around us to learn how to be a human being. We do this all our lives. You know, people joke around that when you someone yawns, it's, uh, it's contagious. And that's human empathy, and it powers, uh, mirroring. So when we see somebody whose posture is similar to ours and has similar gestures, you know, doing similar things, it, it triggers these mirror neurons that exist in our brain that tell us, Hey, this person is on my side, they're like me, and that's helpful. What I add to it is, I call it the varsity move of mirroring. Verbal mirroring. If you can layer that on top, it's a really powerful way to augment that practice as well. And that's where we get into, again, the world of FBI hostage negotiators who you know, obviously can't be in front of their targets. They're at a siege, they need to mirror, verbally, their, their targets, using some of the same language back to them, which has the same effect as the physical mirroring in order to develop that rapport. And they look for pet words, you know, colloquialisms that person might use. We all have these pet phrases we enjoy, uh, you know, sharing with others, and if you use those back to them, it, it, it does also create that sense of familiarity with the person. And you know, when we feel familiar, when we feel comfortable, we're more disposed to be influenced and listened to the other person's point of view, which can be useful as a spy or a business person, or in everyday life. [00:15:39] Chris: Yeah, totally. And, and, um, how do we build rapport with people we dislike, because obviously spies have to do this often. And also we live in a world now where it feels, it feels like a lot of people don't know how to deal with people who have either different feelings or opinions to them. [00:15:54] Jeremy: Yeah, great, great point. Uh, it's absolutely true. Uh, you know, and this is where spies are so elite and, and where we can learn so much from them because, you know, when we hit it off with someone, as we say, that's a great thing. Life, that's one of the great moments in life when you have natural rapport with somebody. But you're right, spies have to develop relationships with people like terrorists and diplomats from, you know, really bad regimes that they might, you know, want nothing to do with otherwise. And there's a variety of things I write about radical empathy, looking for that kernel of humanity. Spies are trained to discover, you know, the, the one redeeming quality. You know, I describe it as the, the criminal that's a devoted family man, or the terrorist that practices acts of charitable good, they'll focus on those positive aspects of their person and try to put aside the negatives. Uh, intellectual curiosity, being just genuinely curious about what someone else is interested in, uh, is a skill that sometimes people have, but you can cultivate. And then finally, uh, there's, uh, vulnerability, which I think is the most powerful way to try to connect with somebody and getting, gets again, into those behavioral science tendencies. Um, and I have, you know, what I think is a compelling example of a struggle I've been through in my life, uh, that's led to something of a disability that when I share this about myself, it pulls me closer to my targets. And spies do this. I, I write about, uh, a spy who was based in the Middle East. I couldn't name his name. He did a, it was a station chief at some big places, and he would talk about how his son is on the autism spectrum. And in the Middle East, you talk a lot about, uh, family. And this drew him closer to his targets, who would then open up about their own families. So once we make ourselves vulnerable, we draw closer to somebody and they tend to respond in kind to that and share deeply about themselves. So, there's some really interesting tactics about how spies connect with people they dislike, and we can definitely use those in our careers, in our everyday lives to connect and influence people. [00:17:47] Chris: Yeah, yeah, nice. I dunno why, when you were describing the story, it reminded me of something happened in my life once we had this very dodgy guy who used to live in a building I used to, I, I lived in previously to this one. And it, and it turned out he was a, a drug dealer because the police raided his flat and things like that. And he was actually a really good neighbor because one day we had a problem with our boiler and he came in and fixed it. So it was like the last person you'd expect or want to invite into your house, but he was super, like, knowledgeable about boilers. It was hilarious. [00:18:15] Jeremy: Yeah, just about anybody, you know, even like, you know, you could joke around and say like, you know, Stalin was a family man. You know, Hitler actually loved Eva Braun. It seemed like a genuine love. The only person I have found, uh, you know, and I haven't studied this extensively, but living in China, reading about Mao, he was a monster. And I don't know if he had any, you know, the human kindness in him, but for the most part, even the biggest monsters in our society have some kernel of humanity that, um, can be leveraged as you seek to try to influence them if you can try to get past all of the downsides and, and seek that out. [00:18:49] Chris: Yeah, that's important stuff there. That kind of common humanity, I think that's very important because we forget that. So, um, how do spies leverage culture and diversity to achieve their mission? [00:19:00] Jeremy: Yeah, I'm so glad you asked that. I, I, I'm proud of that part of the book and, um, because, you know, I, I, I believe in, um, the movement of trying to create more, you know, diversity and giving people who might've been, you know, shot out of certain roles in the past, I believe in that evolution, despite it, it taking some turns I might not necessarily agree with and, uh, but we won't get into that. Um, but, you know, the, the government is, at the top levels, with these tactical teams, grown exceedingly practical about how to leverage diversity. So, you know, I write about how Stan McChrystal, um, you know, has used, you know, counterterrorism teams and they discovered that, you know, most of the time it's just, you know, heavily muscled middle-aged guys. And the only difference was they were blonde hair or brunette, you know? And then they realized that putting a woman on the team creates a different dynamic and it makes them less suspicious when it looks like kind of a married couple on the ground. And women approach a problem in a different way. It's like the, the idea if you're holding a hammer, everything looks like a nail. You know, if you're a heavily muscled, you know, Navy SEAL, you have a certain way of thinking about solving a problem that a woman might, you know, approach differently. The CIA does that all the time. So, you know, the CIA will will use the fact, uh, will flip the sort of prejudices of a society against, uh, that society to be practical. So I think it's an element of actually leveraging diversity. So, for example, in these mega cities in the, the Gulf, in the Middle East, they, you, they bring in, say, uh, Filipinos as, uh, as workers on, on certain construction sites, as housekeepers, and the, the locals treat them quite poorly. And, and, you know, they're not viewed as somebody that warrants attention. So, you know, if you're walking around one of these mega cities as a white, you know, individual from the West, security is gonna notice you a little bit and kind of keep track of you, but if you're of Filipino, uh, origin you might not, you know, be even considered by the local security. Similarly, you know, the, the fact that you could put on a burka as a woman and completely obscure who you are can be leveraged as well. Um, I might be digressing a little bit there, but to me this is all about leveraging diversity. And, you know, there's a really, uh, amazing, uh, a former case officer who was a Green Beret, Greg Roberts, in the book, and he talks about seeing himself as a diversity hire because the CIA has traditionally been the domain of elite, upper-class, white, you know, Ivy League background, uh, individuals and he came from a rural, poor background in Oklahoma. So he felt like a diversity hire. So, expanding your notion of what diversity is and using a best-athlete approach to build teams, um, and getting, and being aware of your prejudices, and everybody has them, we look for people--in the same way mirroring is powerful--we look for people who are similar to us because we find them comfortable and we find them easy to kind of work with. And that affects the prejudice of hiring, you know? We look for people who are similar to us, that we can relate to easily, but if you understand that and decide to challenge yourself and say, I want a diverse team because I want people around the table who might think a little bit differently than, than I do, which the intelligence world really values, it will help your team. So I, I'm kind of an evangelist for adjusting diversity in that way. Instead of reaching metrics, try to, you know, get beyond it and think about it tactically. [00:22:14] Chris: Yeah, totally. Well, it's a very, I'll put it in a simplistic way, in the sense of, like, we're all part of the puzzle that is the world and humanity and, um, if we, we don't get each part of the puzzle, we're kind of missing a bit of the picture really, aren't we? [00:22:27] Jeremy: Yeah, I think so. I think you're correct. [00:22:29] Chris: Let's take a break and we'll be right back. How do spies, sort of, leverage behavioral science to get what they need? [00:22:51] Jeremy: So I, I started alluding to this earlier. You know, one of the, the aspects of, you know, making yourself vulnerable is, is grounded in behavioral science. People tend to respond to things in kind. So when I share something profound and vulnerable about myself, even if you were keeping me at a, a distance a moment ago, all of a sudden you feel a strong human urge to share something about yourself as well. That's an example of it. Uh, behavioral science is behind a lot of the reasons why elicitation is so effective. So, I always talk about the tendency to correct. If I say, "Hey, Chris, isn't your favorite color blue?" You'd say, "No, my favorite color's not blue, it's red," because humans are vain. We're all the stars of our own little story. And there's no detail too small about ourselves that we don't feel compelled to correct. So it would be strange for you to say, no, my favorite color's not, you know, whatever I said, blue, you know, and just leave it at that. That would be an outlier, statistically. You will want me to know what it is. And, uh, there are other things, you know, like if you flatter somebody, they tend to respond in a self-deprecating manner. At least in kind of Western society--at least in America, I could say--we tend to get, oh, you know, this is why this is. So, there are triggers of behavioral science and it's a really important part of active listening, which I described as the most important skill a spy, a salesperson, really anybody could have, um, because we're all so bad at it. There are natural impediments in our evolution, um, that are, that now involve behavioral science that we need to understand in order to become elite active listeners, such as our, uh, our, our human tendency to, um, understand, to comprehend four times faster than someone speaks. So, when you're asking a question, Chris, I might be nodding and I might even finish your question for you because I know where you're going and I can comprehend faster than you can speak. So, understanding these aspects of our evolution, of our behavioral science, and then transcending them can make you better at influencing and connecting with people. [00:24:45] Chris: No, that's interesting. And in the early 2000s, there was this whole thing about, sort of, being able to spot deception. There was even TV shows. I think, The Mentalist, um, Derren Brown, the TV magician. I think there's even a spy show called Lie to Me with, um--trying to remember his name now, not Gary Oldman, but, uh, but anyway. Um, and is it really possible to, to detect deceptive behavior? [00:25:07] Jeremy: No, I don't think so. And I, I tell people, because I do talk about detecting deception, um, and I talk about in my experience in the corporate world, seeing, in the consulting space, former CIA and FBI types come in and say, "I will make your team a human lie detector," and, you know, "I'll be able to understand what a twitch means in the face." It, it, it doesn't, it's not true. You know, human beings are too complex and too contradictory to say, "I'm gonna make you a human lie detector." A polygraph doesn't get it right all the time. You, you might have a unicorn, a one-in-a-million type who can really do this, but no one's going to be able to effectively train your team for you to make hardcore decisions based on someone's face twitching or whether they rub their neck or a lot, you know, as a soothing gesture at a certain moment. But, what we can do, is look at ways that people sometimes try to, uh, deceive us and use that in what I describe as creating a mosaic of intelligence, using the information around you. And I talk about the intangibles, everything from what an office looks like to what, how the people are behaving around the table to each other. All of these things are part of a mosaic of intelligence that all of us should be collecting in every circumstance, and we do it subconsciously, but you want to elevate that to the conscious level. But, specific to your question, there are things that we can do to, uh, you know, understand if someone might be being deceptive with us. So, you know, for example, I know you're in the UK, you probably don't follow American football very much, but there was, uh, an example, I, I'm a New Yorker and we like to stick it to Boston fans, so I try to use this example as much as I can, Chris. The, uh, football team, the Patriots, the New England Patriots, their star quarterback, uh, was accused of, um, on the team, generally, of deflating the footballs, which makes them easier to handle. And a uh, journalist asked this quarterback, Tom Brady, "Hey Tom, were you involved in deflating the footballs?" And Tom replied, "I, I would never cheat." Well, he didn't answer the question, and that's the red flag. Failure to understand or answer a question is a red flag. He could have just said, "No, I had nothing to do with deflating the footballs," but instead, he chose to say, "I would never cheat." Which to me, doesn't mean he is a liar, it doesn't mean he's a cheater, but to me as a journalist, I would've said, interesting, he didn't answer that question clearly. So, you know, there's something there. Um, another example is invoking oaths. If someone is being accused of something and they're innocent, they might get upset, but typ-, but generally speaking, they're candid and say, "No, I didn't do that," you know? But if you start going, I swear on, you know, my children's blah, blah, blah, you know, the mafia thing, I swear on the eyes of my wife, you know--in those, the stakes are very high, obviously, when it comes to, like, mafia stuff--but if someone accuses you of doing something, you should calmly you, and you tend to, if you're, if you're, uh, innocent, just say, "No, I didn't do that." When someone starts swearing and all these things, you might say, "Why so dramatic?" So, there are things that you can look to, to say, "Hey, this person might not be telling the truth." [00:27:56] Chris: Hmm. Well, the other thing as well, like a, should we say a professional--somebody who's like a, a terrorist or a spy--um, they might be, they might have read up on what the so-called telltale signs are and may try and throw you off by doing the opposite or, or, or whatever. So you've gotta be a bit careful of that too, I think. [00:28:14] Jeremy: Yeah, I think so. I mean, in the spy world, they have to think about kind of, you know, countering these things and maybe if I'm successful and evangelize enough about this, there'll be a sort of counterside to this in, uh, in, in the business world. But, you know, for now, I think if you're using these skills effectively, I, I think it's a pretty tough call to say someone else is going to be so savvy that they can use these skills against you, but who knows, you know? Keep your wits about you. [00:28:38] Chris: Yeah. Do you think poker players make good, uh, lie detectors? [00:28:41] Jeremy: I don't know. I, I, I don't engage in any gambling. Like I, I'm totally uninterested in card games and all that, but I, but I understand that they are actually quite good at it. Maybe I should familiarize myself at it. [00:28:51] Chris: Yeah, no, totally. I wish I could, uh, yeah, I think I, it's so funny. I'm, I'm like a fluky gambler and so I've never actually gambled, but I, I managed to correctly, um, guess which horse within the Grand National this year, just by going, "Oh, yeah, that one." I have this weird skill of doing that. So I, I worry if actually did it, I'd probably start losing money. [00:29:11] Jeremy: Nice. [00:29:12] Chris: So, um, yeah. Um, so, uh, what techniques, um, from spies can be used to get a yes for salespeople? [00:29:21] Jeremy: Well, uh, in, in my book, I write about one section of a, a spy tradecraft strategy that was described to me by a former case officer called Crawl, Walk, Run. And to me that is the most direct answer I could probably give you there about. And, and it's a, it's a sales story that I was involved in about cultivating the big fish, and that mirrors the sort of spy recruitment strategy because, you know, I think the recruit of an agent is always kind of the big fish, whereas sales, sometimes we get the quick sale. But, you know, if you're chasing someone who is often that big fish that could, you know, change your year from a sale you want to take the time to cultivate it, so I write a lot in that section about, you know, patience and leveraging different, uh, colleagues around you, different resources, and so there's quite a bit of description in there that I would refer you to the book about. But, um, you know, there's no button to push that I can teach about how to get to yes. What I, what I would say is effectively leveraging the skills that I write about in connection, in elicitation, in mirroring, in active listening will put you in a position where you have rapport, where you're able to influence the thinking of the other side, where the other side likes you. Um, one of the things I say at the beginning of almost every talk as well is that, uh--and it's a real conviction of mine--that rarely in the business world is there a product or service that's totally differentiated, okay? There's usually a group of, you know, competitors. Their, their value prop is not gonna be all that different. Um, so you have that. Sometimes a price point of a certain vendor or service can blow the others out of the water. People will rush to that because who doesn't like a deal? But, where I'm going with this is that salesmanship relationships is so critical. So in a, in a market where products or services aren't necessarily that differentiated, if you've used all the skills I just mentioned really effectively to get to know your target, and they have a toss up on whether to continue with the vendor or give a shot to Jeremy who they like a lot and has been, you know, great to have lunch with and seems like a really good guy and shared that detail about himself. He put himself on the line, you know, and made himself vulnerable. Those things will help you get to yes, because people want to reward people they like, you know, and they want to work with them. They buy from those they like. The same is true in the spy world. A lot of times--and the final thought--a lot of case officers will tell you that, you know, there's all these motivations--and that's a digression, too, uh, you know, what motivates someone to spy. I think in the sales world, we don't do enough thinking about what motivates someone to buy. But ultimately you hear a lot of spies tell you, case officers talk about how someone will, say, an agent who gets moved to another handler, another case officer, because you can't spend more than a couple years as their case officer, they try to move it, they will say to that person, I'm only doing this actually because of you and our relationship. Those are the profound bonds that we create as human beings where they will overcome danger, you know, risk their marriage, all sorts of things because of their connection to that person. If someone feels seen, understood, respected, and they like you, they will do profound things for you. [00:32:22] Chris: Yeah, no, that's really interesting. Do you have any, sort of, tips for networking? Because I was recently at a networking event and I, I met somebody who ended up being quite important, but I was, we, we kind of chatted about mutual love of, um, sci-fi and I had no idea who this person was. It was only at the very end of the conversation when we were like, "Oh, we should stay in touch," and then I suddenly found out that this person was, like, significantly important in the industry. And so it's, like, but I felt like we built a pretty good bond just by this sort of chat about sci-fi. So I don't know if there are any sort of tips for networking where maybe it could be a little bit less haphazard, like I was. [00:32:57] Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely. I write very specifically about that and while, while the, uh, while the development process for a potential agent is usually very rigorous with dossiers of information and a lot of care, there is a spy skill known as spotting, where, you know, at a diplomatic event, a networking event, a case officer, a, a spy might, you know, recruit somebody on the fly because they find somebody quite useful or at least begin the recruitment process, I should say. Um, so there's tons we can learn from spies and networking. And I, I joke around with, with groups kind of, you know, breaking the ice in this subject to talk about how earlier in my career I would do what much of us do going into a networking event, which is go directly to the bar. You know, get a drink, you know, social lubrication, and you just fall into conversation with whoever comes your way. But, I think that spies do it a lot more strategically. Assessing the room, seeing who, kind of, seems to be someone who's popular in the room, influential. Evaluating who's coming in and out of those conversations. You know, looking at name tags. Does a name mean anything about a culture that you might know, a country, a language you might speak? What does the organization say if people are wearing name tags? Is it a target for you? Is it a competitor of a target? So trying to move around the room strategically and get in the lay of the land before you approach anybody is good tradecraft in that respect. And then, kind of a final point too, that I, I feel strongly about and behavioral science backs me up on this, that we can judge a book by its cover. The old cliche is wrong. We make very fast assessments of people that behavioral science shows that we tend to get right. Now, the caveat is that you, you might, you know, discern somebody and say, Hey, that person looks like a very, you know, basic average person. He's, you know, he or she just looks, kind of, conservative and normal, and then you talk to them and they're total eccentric, you know? And so you don't want to be wed to your assumptions. You want to be flexible and nimble as you're getting to know somebody, but you should use what people are giving you. And it's, you know, it's evident in their facial hair, their hairstyles, glasses, no glasses, you know, whether they're wearing jewelry, their clothing, how they wear things, and their body language and tone of voice. All of these are advertisements for who you should approach and how you might approach them. And again, you want to bring that subconscious to the conscious level and think about who you're gonna, you know, approach and how you might approach them, rather than haphazardly just, kind of, falling into conversation with someone. That's fine, but if you want to be a more effective networker, being strategic about who you approach and how you approach them and leveraging your instincts is a much smarter way to do it. [00:35:20] Chris: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Fun enough, with recent experiences I found like, um, I'm not a smoker, but I found like the smoking area seems to be quite a good place to connect with people. Um, and just anywhere that's, sort of, away from the main buzz of the room seems to be an interesting place because everybody, at some point, wants to escape it, and that's quite, I've had that, it's been quite successful. [00:35:38] Jeremy: Absolutely. And if you see someone standing on the sidelines looking kind of cynical, you, you, you should read that and say, "Yeah, these things get really intense, right?" But I also really like what you did, talking with someone about sci-fi, and there's a whole section in my book about user superpowers. You know, I, I, I'm, I also am like evangelize about people leaning into their passions and I have a story about, again, with American sports, but I'm a huge baseball fan. My New York Yankees are potentially on the verge of being swept in the World Series right now, which I'm very upset about, but, uh, it, this, this passion for baseball has opened up doors for me and, uh, in the business world, surprising doors I didn't know would be there. So, when people lean into their superpowers it leads to better conversations and deeper connectivity. Your passion for sci-fi was mirrored by the other side, and all of a sudden you have a new buddy because you're both passionate about something. So, you know, people should lean into their esoteric superpowers and, and use that as a way to have conversations. So I write a lot about superpowers as a tool to go into these intense networking events and cultivate and have better conversations. [00:36:40] Chris: Yeah. Actually, do you have any tips on, um, following up after a networking event? Because with that person I connected with--or at least, so I thought--um, I dropped them an email, I thought a very friendly one, I even put in a, um, a link to the very specific sci-fi show I'd recommended to them. Heard nothing. Heard nothing back. [00:36:58] Jeremy: That's gets, that gets to my, uh, remark earlier that you, you know, you can't account for people. They're just, they're so, you know, mysterious, ultimately, and that's what makes the game so interesting, I suppose. So, you know, I, I've been frustrated by that so many times, Chris. I'm, I'm a good responder. I'm, I'm a candid New Yorker. I follow up. So, I get frustrated. I, I, I share your frustration there with that. I would continue to lean into that, uh, superpower, as I would describe it, and, you know, leave that person for a bit and then send them another reply about another event or a movie you watched and see if it works. Send a fresh email with a new subject line. Um, and, you know, if it's worth it and you're comfortable, be bold. I mean, make a phone call, you know? People only text and email now, and sometimes it can backfire on you, a phone call can seem kind of jarring, but you have to kind of be bold and, and follow up if it's worth it and, and take a risk. [00:37:51] Chris: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, yeah. Well, it's the SAS motto, "He Who Dares Wins." Might need to update that, but yes, it kind of works. [00:37:57] Jeremy: Yeah, fortune favors the bold. Absolutely. All of that. [00:37:59] Chris: Yeah. Let's take a break and we'll be right back. Is technology making it harder to understand people? [00:38:21] Jeremy: It is, it is. Uh, I, I, I truly believe so. And I, I allude to that in the kind of closing part of my book, the way technology funnels us into our little echo chambers. And so the, the viewpoints of others seem increasingly, kind of, inscrutable and offensive to us, and, you know, that's just a terrible thing. And, uh, you know, a lot of the work that I'm doing right now, a lot of, I'm being hired by a lot of teams at law firms and other places who are just really trying to account for the lack of kind of emotional intelligence on their new hires, because these kids have grown up looking at screens constantly, you know, which affected their socialization. Then these poor kids were, you know, at college during the Covid pandemic and had to learn online, and they again, lost valuable socialization aspects in their development. And now they're facing a, a world of, you know, a lot of work remote situations and they, they don't want to go to the office, or they go to the office and they find it's a ghost town. And some of the mentorship possibilities that I utilized in my career, the water cooler chatter, the impromptu happy hours that help you get to know someone of a generational difference in a more relaxed environment, aren't there. So I'm being hired to come in and help with some of the things we're talking about here to, you know, augment the emotional intelligence of younger people because technology is, you know, impacting our ability to socialize with people with different points of view and just read the cues of other people. These kids are just constantly down looking at their phone and, and they're not reading the cues that they're getting from people and they're uncomfortable. So there, there is an issue with that. I think it will be, uh, worsened, probably, by AI. But, you know, I'm bullish on what I'm talking about because I think those who can lean into human skills, uh, and, and, and become good at them will distinguish themselves and their careers and in their lives in an increasingly mechanized technological world. [00:40:09] Chris: And what do you think the future holds for human intelligence--as in, spying--um, as technology's, sort of, going to make it harder for intelligence officers to travel more freely and connect with, uh, potential assets. [00:40:22] Jeremy: It absolutely already has. Um, you know, I, uh, Bob Grenier, the former head of the Counterterrorism Center in my book, I've talked a lot with him about it. You know, if you were a spy in the past at the CIA, you know, there's--I'm sure your, your listeners know, there's official cover and non-official cover--and spies in those, in the, in days, uh, past could kind of move from one to the other, you know, and it would take a lot of government resources to figure out who somebody was. These days, you have to really stick to one or the other and you have to develop a, you know, especially if you're a non-official cover, a detailed legend and you can't then, you know, move back and forth because it's all the information about us is there at, at your fingertips, right? So there's so much technology there and then there's kind of facial recognition, you know, that you, it's hard to get past that. We have to compete, we have to try to continue to outsmart those kind of technologies with other technologies. So disguises, you know, and their ability to obscure who somebody is. So technology is just the latest chapter in a cat and mouse game of spies and spy catchers, but it is upping the ante and certainly making it difficult. Uh, but it also helps spy tradecraft. So instead of, you know, burning agents who might have, you know, be used to tell you who's who in the hierarchy of a certain ministry or a certain business that you want to influence, you now can, you know, just use the org chart and LinkedIn and other publicly available information or signal intercepts, you know, to find out, hey, this Iranian diplomat turns out, has a sick child back home and we have elite resources to, you know, get that child healthy in the US. So, you don't have to burn an agent trying to figure out what is this, you know, potential target like, what are their pain points? There are technological ways that have improved, uh, a spy's ability to learn about what might motivate someone to become an agent. So it's a double-edged sword, Chris. [00:42:09] Chris: Yeah, I always wonder about, like, with spy fiction, what effect it's gonna have because I know, like, the Bourne films kind of just decided to ignore facial recognition technology. [00:42:17] Jeremy: Yeah. Yeah. [00:42:18] Chris: Because he was traveling all over the place. [00:42:20] Jeremy: Right, right. It was the early days of that. But, yeah, it was, it was still there, and they did just decide to ignore it. And that's, that's kind of what Hollywood does, pick and choose what they want to talk about. [00:42:28] Chris: Yeah, but on the, on the flip side, with that one, like, I've, I've always been fascinated by with the Skripal poisoning of--you're familiar with the Skripal poisoning? [00:42:34] Jeremy: Sure. [00:42:34] Chris: Where the, the, um, GRU operatives who carried out the attempted poisoning, used public transport the whole way. They, they flew in to Heathrow. They, uh, got trains to their motel in London. Then they went from their motel in London onto the, uh, London Underground, then the Overground to Salisbury, which they could have driven to. And I was just like, wow, they, they just, um, and I was trying to work out like, was it just, A) poor tradecraft, B) was it to, sort of, um, sort of send a message? But then, the consequence of that is they kind of blow those two operatives because they can't really operate anywhere in Europe, at least anymore. It was such a weird one, that one. [00:43:12] Jeremy: Yeah, but I don't know what they would've done differently. You know, flown private, been in a private car, I guess. Um, but maybe they understood they were gonna burn the guys. I don't know if it was risky with the, uh, the poison if it could have leaked, but maybe they felt confident that, you know, because that would obviously create a different dynamic internationally. [00:43:29] Chris: Yeah. [00:43:29] Jeremy: If there was a- [00:43:30] Chris: Yeah. [00:43:30] Jeremy: But, um, you know, yeah, it's, it, it's a good question, one that I certainly don't have an answer to. [00:43:34] Chris: Yeah, I was just thinking, God, imagine if it leaked on the train. [00:43:36] Jeremy: Exactly. It could have been a war, you know? It would've been- [00:43:40] Chris: Yeah. [00:43:40] Jeremy: Yeah. [00:43:41] Chris: Geez, God. Well, there we are. Imagination for you. [00:43:44] Jeremy: Yeah. [00:43:46] Chris: Well, um, talk about Hollywood and imagination things, what does Hollywood, sort of, get wrong in the depiction of espionage and, um, and intelligence officers? And also, I was thinking, are there any films that get it right? [00:43:56] Jeremy: Yeah. Well, we were alluding to one of the things that, that Hollywood gets a little bit more correct, which is disguises and cover stories. You know, that, that that is a, when I watch things, it's usually a little bit more of a correct portrayal. Um, because spies do use disguises and cover stories. There's even a head of disguises at the CIA and there's a- [00:44:16] Chris: Yeah, I was quite surprised by that. [00:44:17] Jeremy: Yeah! [00:44:17] Chris: Yeah. [00:44:17] Jeremy: And there's a detailed, uh, long, historically, there's a relationship between government and the arts, um, in the UK as well and the, you know, the theater districts and all of that. That's been a tradition. And in Hollywood, you know, there's a quiet collaboration between the top levels of Hollywood and, you know, costumes and disguises and the CIA to, you know, make sure the CIA, for national security reasons, is up on the best understanding of what adversaries might use and what they might use effectively themselves. So there is that interesting relationship and spies do use disguises. You know, what they of course get wrong is what we were talking about earlier with, um, you know, the dashing spy driving an Aston Martin, uh, seducing, you know, their targets--which, the CIA, it's verboten, you can't do that. Um, so all that stuff is, is not correct, right? And, you know, even, even a show like, uh, The Bureau, the French show--which I thought was one of the closest, the best shows I recommend to people in terms of getting it right--there was in a season where, you know, the top guy, who was like head of the agency, goes into the field to meet with an operative, you know. That that's not gonna happen. You're not gonna put the head of an agency into the field, you know? So there, there's always a Hollywood aspect of these things. Um, in turn, I get asked this question about what shows and movies I like. I love The Americans, I thought that it captured the ambiguity of, of these types of, uh, uh, jobs, uh, the relationship between the two of them, which of course was powered by their real life, uh, romance. But I think, and I think you see that, but they use disguises and then they use it in the correct way, from what I've understood. The relationships are very influence-driven. Uh, there's a lot of unwitting agents, you know, so the, I felt The Americans is, is the best example there. Um, I like the movie Munich, which is, uh, partially based on, uh, the founder of the firm that I advise, Interfor International. [00:46:04] Chris: Oh, wow. [00:46:04] Jeremy: The, the Eric Bana character's based on Juval Aviv, the former Mossad agent. Um, I also, my favorite, uh, spy movie is, uh, Zero Dark Thirty. Um, part of that is because I have, uh, spent a little time with one of the SEALs who shot bin Laden. Uh, and part of it is, uh, you know, just being swept up in that era of, uh, you know, 9/11, the villainy of bin Laden, the pride in tracking him down. And you know, it, it's a good movie. It was made with, uh, the impa-, the input of senior CIA officials. So, I think the tone, the uh, the ambiguity, the tradecraft, it rings more true in that, in that movie. [00:46:44] Chris: Yeah, yeah. I always thought it was a really good movie. My funny, weird note on that film, everybody had really bad hair in it. That was the one thing I--it's mainly the guys, they had terrible hair. [00:46:54] Jeremy: I'm thinking of Jessica Chastain and I don't think she did anything wrong in that film. [00:46:57] Chris: She's, uh, no, no, she was fine. Oh, that's good, that's good. Do you have a favorite onscreen spy? An actual character or, or actor who's portrayed a spy really well, do you think? [00:47:10] Jeremy: Not that I'm, uh, you know, wed to. Even though the Jason Bourne stuff can be kind of silly, you know, I, I enjoy those films tremendously. You know, I really, I, I do like the Jessica Chastain, uh--if I'm saying her name correctly--uh, spy in that, you know, this sort of social recluse who, you know, obsessed with this kind of vision. You know, a lot of the people who get in, in this work are obsessive and they're really focused on the mission, and, and I just, I found her to be a really compelling character. Um, so yeah. [00:47:40] Chris: Yeah, I always liked, uh, was it Philip Seymour Hoffman in, um, Charlie Wilson's War? [00:47:45] Jeremy: Yeah. [00:47:45] Chris: He was obviously much larger than life. Was it Gus Avrakotos or something? His name was, and, um, actually reminds me of a intelligence officer I once interviewed years ago, kind of a bigger personality and kind of, like, almost the opposite of what you didn't expect intelligence officer to be, but uh, yeah. [00:47:59] Jeremy: Well they, they're often big personalities. There's a quote in my book from John le Carré, you know, of course the famous novelist that, you know, spies should be something of an entertainer. You know, he talks about--paraphrasing here--how if I'm not somebody of, uh, you know, who's entertaining and, you know, somebody compelling and personality-wise, why would you agree to have lunch with me, you know? So while, while I know a lot of very low-key, introverted spies who are amazing at active listening, other spies have gregarious personalities that draw people to them, you know, and that, that has a, a--spies aren't cookie cutter, you know? There's many different ways they leverage human skills to be effective at what they do. [00:48:33] Chris: Oh, excellent. Well, thank you very much for all that. Is there anything else you'd like to add before we, sort of, wrap up today? [00:48:38] Jeremy: Well, no, just, you know, I'm on, I'm on a mission to make people understand that spies are not necessarily who you think they are. And, you know, Hollywood does a disservice in some ways, in, in, in putting these people on a pedestal. I understand why, and I enjoy a great spy story too, but I admire these people. They're public servants. They risk their lives sometimes and they certainly sacrifice. So I like to shine a light on their, their public service for us and, you know, I hope people will read the book and leverage some of the skills that spies and other government officials use to have deeper relationships and make their lives richer. So, that's kind of a lot of things I think about regularly. [00:49:12] Chris: Yeah, fantastic. Well, where can listeners find out more about you and your book? [00:49:16] Jeremy: Yeah, thanks so much. The book is available anywhere you buy books on online. I always encourage people to think about buying from their local, small bookstore, uh, rather than, than Amazon or something, uh, though that's important. Um, they can find me at Sell Like a Spy dot net to see, you know, video me speaking, learn about my, my training programs and more about me and, and the stories I write too for The Hill and other publications. Uh, I'm also pretty active on LinkedIn. You could find me there under my name and, and Twitter, uh, Sell Like a Spy. That's another good place to find me, too. [00:49:45] Chris: Fantastic. Well, thank you for joining me today, Jeremy. [00:49:47] Jeremy: My pleasure, Chris. Thanks for having me. [00:50:20] Announcer: Thanks for listening. This is Secrets and Spies.