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[00:01:01] Due to the themes of this podcast, listener discretion is advised. Lock your doors, close the blinds, change your passwords. This is Secrets and Spies.

[00:01:27] Secrets and Spies is a podcast that dives into the world of espionage, terrorism, geopolitics and intrigue. This podcast is produced and hosted by Chris Carr.

[00:01:37] On today's podcast, I am joined by investigative journalist Florian Flader, who is from the German broadcaster WDR.

[00:01:45] And we take a look at Russian research vessels that are suspected of espionage and possibly even sabotage.

[00:01:53] Hope you enjoy this episode.

[00:01:54] The opinions expressed by guests on Secrets and Spies do not necessarily represent those of the producers and sponsors of this podcast.

[00:02:17] Florian, welcome back to the podcast. How are you?

[00:02:20] I'm doing fine. Thank you, sir.

[00:02:22] Excellent. Well, it's good to have you back on.

[00:02:24] Now, there may be some listeners who didn't listen to our previous episodes.

[00:02:27] So just for the benefit of them, if you could just tell us a little bit about yourself.

[00:02:31] Sure. My name is Florian Flader.

[00:02:34] I am a national security reporter living in Berlin.

[00:02:36] And I work for the German public broadcaster WDR, which is part of a bigger network, ARD, similar to the BBC.

[00:02:46] And I am part of a joint investigative team of WDR, NDR and Süddeutsche Zeitung.

[00:02:52] And some people might have heard of this cooperation.

[00:02:55] We were involved in the reporting on the so-called Panama Papers, Swiss Leagues, Pegasus files about this Israeli spy software.

[00:03:05] So I do investigative journalism on topics regarding security.

[00:03:10] In recent years, focusing mostly on intelligence and espionage related cases.

[00:03:16] Yeah. Thank you for that.

[00:03:17] Yeah. So we are today going to be chatting about these sort of mysterious Russian, should we call them, research ships for now that may or may not have another purpose.

[00:03:27] So what do these research ships do that indicate they may be involved in espionage?

[00:03:33] Yeah, let's say they do what you would expect a research ship to do.

[00:03:37] I mean, they travel across the oceans.

[00:03:40] They go on scientific missions.

[00:03:44] But from time to time, there's also quite, I would say, I don't know, suspicious behavior of these ships.

[00:03:52] We looked into this investigative journalism project that we were running this year.

[00:03:59] We, meaning my colleagues from WDR, NDR, Süddeutsche Zeitung, and lots of colleagues from Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Belgium, Netherlands, Finland.

[00:04:10] And our question was, how many of these alleged spy ships do exist?

[00:04:15] What do they do in the Baltic, in the North Sea?

[00:04:18] And what can we find out about their mission?

[00:04:22] Yeah.

[00:04:23] So we tracked dozens of these ships, 72 to be precise, and more than 400 cruises we looked into over several months.

[00:04:33] And we gathered positioning data, the AIS data.

[00:04:38] We combined this data with other information, with satellite imagery, for instance.

[00:04:43] And also we looked at webcams that are stationed across the Baltic Sea and North Sea coastlines on bridges, for example, to identify these ships and to follow them, to track them.

[00:04:53] And we used all this available information and classical OSINT stuff, so open source intelligence stuff.

[00:05:02] And we followed these ships in real time.

[00:05:04] And yeah, so we were especially interested in these unusual patterns, unusual behavior of these ships.

[00:05:12] And then we looked at critical infrastructure.

[00:05:15] So is there critical infrastructure present in the ocean where these ships have these unusual movements?

[00:05:22] Meaning undersea cable, pipelines, all this.

[00:05:26] Yeah.

[00:05:26] And that's what we looked into.

[00:05:27] And that's what we saw.

[00:05:29] We saw the usual behavior and we saw unusual behavior.

[00:05:32] Yeah.

[00:05:33] Yeah.

[00:05:33] Okay.

[00:05:34] So what kind of equipment's on these ships and sort of how they go about gathering intelligence?

[00:05:39] What kind of information are they collecting?

[00:05:42] These ships, they are loaded with lots of technical gear, equipment, sonar systems, high-tech tools to map the ocean floor, to map the sea bed.

[00:05:55] Some of them are equipped with unmanned drone, underwater drones.

[00:05:59] Some of them have small miniature submarines.

[00:06:03] Yeah.

[00:06:04] Officially what these ships are doing, yeah, it's called scientific ocean research.

[00:06:10] But the estimate of Western intelligence services and also NATO is that these ships are gathering intelligence on critical infrastructure, such as undersea data cables, communication systems, energy infrastructure like pipelines.

[00:06:26] And, yeah, Russia is using the so-called academic fleet.

[00:06:31] That's what the Russians call them.

[00:06:32] They call them academic ships, academic fleet.

[00:06:36] Yeah.

[00:06:37] The estimate in NATO is that Russia is using this fleet to spy on European sea bed infrastructure and that they are gathering information that can be useful for military purposes and for military means.

[00:06:50] For example, they are mapping the ocean floor to produce very, very detailed underwater maps.

[00:06:58] Data that can be used, for example, to navigate unmanned drones, underwater drones.

[00:07:04] And I suppose that data should be quite useful for Russian submarines as well, kind of thinking of them, you know, because they're very reliant on maps and so on.

[00:07:12] And so they'd be quite useful.

[00:07:14] And it's still part of the Russian system when they train their people on submarines that they are cruising along using maps, very detailed maps.

[00:07:26] I mean, if you have precise maps, you can travel around the ocean without being reliant on any other positioning system.

[00:07:36] And, yeah, that's why probably they are interested in getting the most detailed underwater maps that exist.

[00:07:42] Yeah, yeah. And for a popular culture reference, the Hunt for October has a really good scene where they're using maps and timing, aren't they?

[00:07:49] I think they're timing before they have to make a turn before a very big bit of rock.

[00:07:53] In our investigation this year, I mean, we talked to a lot of people from the military, from Navy, people that worked with NATO, German military, Scandinavian military sources.

[00:08:05] And, yeah, to be honest, it is very similar to the Hunt for Red October.

[00:08:10] I mean, it's basically you feel like you're back in these days.

[00:08:14] To be honest, this has never really stopped.

[00:08:17] I mean, this cat and mouse game in the ocean and the hunt for Russian submarines and the other way around, Russians looking for Western submarines.

[00:08:27] It's going on for decades, for decades, for decades.

[00:08:29] It has never stopped.

[00:08:30] And this game is going on 24-7.

[00:08:33] Yeah, yeah, indeed.

[00:08:34] Where have these ships been sighted?

[00:08:38] What kind of places have they been?

[00:08:40] These ships, they travel the oceans of the world.

[00:08:43] So they are often present in the Baltic Sea, in the North Sea, in the Mediterranean as well, in the Atlantic, of course.

[00:08:51] Some of them have traveled to the Caribbeans.

[00:08:54] Some of them traveled along the South American coastline.

[00:08:57] They appeared in Africa.

[00:09:00] Also some parts of Asia.

[00:09:02] Even though it's less Asia, it's more like European-focused.

[00:09:08] And one particular spot near, am I right, where they train NATO submarines?

[00:09:13] Is that in the Baltic or somewhere like that?

[00:09:15] Yes, no, there's a, yeah, there are various places, training places, exercising places where NATO is training with submarines.

[00:09:25] There's also an area in the Irish Sea where these ships have apparently a huge interest in.

[00:09:34] So they appeared there.

[00:09:35] Sometimes they were staying there for days, weeks even.

[00:09:38] And you wonder why.

[00:09:40] And if you look what is down there in the ocean, you see that there are very important communication cables running from the Irish Sea all over the Atlantic to the US, for example.

[00:09:54] They are also interested in the critical infrastructure high up in the north, in the northern parts of Norway.

[00:10:01] And there have been some incidents where, yeah, there's suspicion that Russian ships, Russian submarines were maybe even involved in sabotage.

[00:10:11] There was a cable in Svalbard up in the north of Norway.

[00:10:15] A very important communication cable for NATO was cut two years ago, I think it was.

[00:10:22] So, yeah, certain parts they are very, very interested in.

[00:10:26] And it's also around these exercising areas where NATO is regularly training submarines.

[00:10:32] Yeah, yeah.

[00:10:33] And I believe one of the things with regards to submarines that would be useful is to capture acoustic signatures of different kind of submarines, isn't it?

[00:10:41] Because that could be quite useful for sonar.

[00:10:43] Yeah.

[00:10:43] Some people even tend to say, I mean, I heard this during our investigation when I talked to sources.

[00:10:48] It's still regarded as, yeah, one of the crown jewels of NATO and of any military navy is these acoustic signals.

[00:10:59] And it's everything that is moving in the ocean makes a noise.

[00:11:03] So you can track everything if you know how it sounds.

[00:11:09] And for decades, I mean, that's just nothing new.

[00:11:12] This has happened since the time of the Cold War.

[00:11:16] The Russians and also, I guess, Western militaries, they try not to give away their acoustic signal to the enemy or potential enemy.

[00:11:29] So what is quite interesting is if you see, you can see that there are Russian submarines that are being tracked, you know, they are being towed by another ship in the Baltic Sea.

[00:11:42] So they are not having their engine on.

[00:11:44] So they will not give away their acoustic signal.

[00:11:47] So another ship is just towing them through the ocean.

[00:11:51] So that because they know that NATO will listen to them and that there are some position signals, hydroacoustic signal systems are placed on the bottom of the sea and in various areas around there.

[00:12:02] So the Russians know that.

[00:12:04] Sometimes they try to, yeah, circumvent these systems.

[00:12:09] And if an acoustic signature was given away, it would have to re-engineer that particular submarine, wouldn't they, to kind of change it?

[00:12:15] It would cost billions, I'm assuming.

[00:12:18] And many years.

[00:12:20] One other episode I noticed recently, I was looking at H.I. Sutton's website.

[00:12:25] He mentioned that one of these spy ships was spotted near a German port where an Israeli submarine had just been launched.

[00:12:34] And I don't know if you've sort of heard anything about that.

[00:12:36] Yeah, I mean, there are, we have some companies in Germany that are building, I heard, very, very good and high quality ships, also submarines.

[00:12:50] And yeah, there's apparently a Russian interest in these companies and what is being built there in these harbors.

[00:12:57] Yeah, yeah.

[00:12:58] There's certainly been talk of certain defense people I've spoken to who believe that we should probably purchase German submarines rather than trying to build our own.

[00:13:06] But, you know, so they're definitely market leaders.

[00:13:08] Yeah, there was news just this week that our Ministry of Defense is probably going to order some new submarines, I think four or five new ones.

[00:13:19] So, yeah, there are high quality ships and submarines being built in Germany.

[00:13:24] And of course, yeah, this is target of espionage and intelligence gathering.

[00:13:28] So what is the Russian government's kind of official line on the activities of these ships?

[00:13:33] What are they sort of saying?

[00:13:34] Yeah, I mean, the Russian government, they call these ships the academic vessels.

[00:13:39] So they allegedly involved only in peaceful activities and peaceful means.

[00:13:47] And yeah, I mean, these ships, some of them have existed for decades.

[00:13:51] I mean, all this started back in actually Cold War times.

[00:13:55] So it's nothing new that these ships that are called scientific ships, that they are in reality used to gather information with military purpose.

[00:14:07] And the Russians are quite proud of what they can do.

[00:14:10] And they have, yeah, really amazing capabilities.

[00:14:14] I mean, also people from NATO and defense ministries that I talked to said, yeah, the Russians still keep up with these capabilities.

[00:14:22] They have never stopped investing in these programs.

[00:14:26] There's still a lot of money going in there.

[00:14:28] And they have capabilities to operate in depth that are insane, like 6,000 meters deep.

[00:14:36] They operate there.

[00:14:37] They're very proud of their programs.

[00:14:39] But in general, they say that these ships are only doing peaceful scientific work.

[00:14:45] And what have German and NATO intelligence been saying about these ships?

[00:14:49] Yeah, well, the sources that we talked to, and some of them, we have them on record.

[00:14:54] I mean, we have them in our documentary.

[00:14:56] We made a documentary about this topic.

[00:14:58] We have them on camera.

[00:15:00] We have the director of the BND, of our foreign intelligence service.

[00:15:05] We have people from NATO on camera saying, yeah, that Russia is using these ships, dozens of them.

[00:15:12] Increasingly also civilian ships, other civilian ships, like huge vessels and also the fishing trawlers in a military way.

[00:15:20] So they have created a fleet of dual-use ships to carry out hybrid operations against NATO.

[00:15:29] That is their estimate.

[00:15:31] Yeah.

[00:15:31] And is that the primary goal of these Russian ships, then, operating in the Baltic Sea?

[00:15:36] We have come to the conclusion in our investigation, and this is what various experts are saying,

[00:15:42] that these ships are mainly out there to gather intelligence on European underwater infrastructure.

[00:15:49] And they are doing it in a large-scale and very sophisticated way.

[00:15:56] And some of the experts we talked to say this could be interpreted as a form of preparation for war, for conflict.

[00:16:05] Some are calling this like shaping the battlefield, meaning you know where your enemy is most vulnerable

[00:16:11] and where you can target communication and energy infrastructure.

[00:16:16] So, yeah, I guess it's fair to say that this is probably the main goal of these ships.

[00:16:22] And how do you think that sort of fits into Russia's broader geopolitical strategy?

[00:16:26] I would say Russia is interested in preparing for a broader conflict, possibly even war with NATO.

[00:16:34] I think these ships are used to gather, possibly information that can be used in a military conflict,

[00:16:44] to do a lot of harm to NATO.

[00:16:46] And we in the West, we are very vulnerable when it comes to cables and pipelines.

[00:16:52] I mean, yeah.

[00:16:53] So, in times of war, this could be a huge advantage for Russia to damage or to destroy this infrastructure,

[00:17:01] thereby harm our communication, financial transactions that are also running via these cables, energy supply.

[00:17:07] And, I mean, remember, most data that is being exchanged flows between, let's say, Europe and the United States.

[00:17:17] It's not delivered via satellite systems, but by cables, you know, that run across oceans around the world.

[00:17:25] Most people don't know that, but almost 90% of communication that is out there depends on these cables.

[00:17:31] It's not about satellites.

[00:17:34] But there's also another way to look at this.

[00:17:36] And this is maybe even more disturbing.

[00:17:39] And it's something that I found very, very interesting.

[00:17:44] I talked to people in the German military, Navy and intelligence and also NATO.

[00:17:50] And what they did, they painted the following picture, so to say.

[00:17:57] Imagine Russia has the most detailed, precise, accurate underwater maps.

[00:18:04] They know every underwater canyon, every coastline.

[00:18:10] They're able to communicate underwater.

[00:18:12] They can process data.

[00:18:16] They can analyze, send data underwater in a way that most experts in the West never expected them to do.

[00:18:24] So they are really, really putting a lot of effort, energy into, you know, being able to move around the oceans.

[00:18:34] So Russia is steadily shaping a battlefield underwater.

[00:18:41] And they know that they cannot hide from Western spy satellites, for example.

[00:18:46] I mean, the case in Ukraine shows, you know, everything that happens on the ground is being watched by Western spy satellites.

[00:18:54] So they basically have given up space as a domain to gather intelligence.

[00:18:59] And I talked to someone very experienced in military intelligence.

[00:19:03] And he said, Russia used to be a great space nation.

[00:19:08] Everybody knows that, you know, Sputnik and whatnot.

[00:19:11] And now all they put up in space in recent years is either jamming or harming or destructive.

[00:19:20] So in other words, Russia has weaponized space.

[00:19:24] Russia has put weapons out in space.

[00:19:27] And they see the West's increasing independence on the space system, like Starlink and the others, as a weakness that they could use in conflict and war.

[00:19:38] So if you go back to the ocean, just if you imagine Russia is attacking Western satellite systems in case of war, destroying them.

[00:19:47] I mean, if you destroy a satellite, it creates a huge cloud of debris in space that is traveling there.

[00:19:53] And it will be there for years and decades, even centuries.

[00:19:56] This debris will travel and will harm other satellites, destroy them.

[00:20:01] It's like shooting a shotgun in space.

[00:20:03] And all this stuff will still go around.

[00:20:05] And they have done it.

[00:20:06] They have done it in November 2021.

[00:20:08] They have destroyed one of their own satellites.

[00:20:10] The debris is still there.

[00:20:11] So just imagine Russia would do this.

[00:20:14] And there's almost no way to defend against such attack, against satellites.

[00:20:19] This will harm NATO.

[00:20:21] This will affect Western military's capabilities, not only to communicate, but also to target, to guide missiles.

[00:20:29] Everything that depends on satellite communication.

[00:20:33] Russia, on the other hand, is able to move in the ocean, is able to use underwater drones, submarines, without relying on any satellite system.

[00:20:42] Because they have very, very, very detailed underwater maps.

[00:20:46] So this changes a lot.

[00:20:48] It might break even the American or the United States' dominance at sea.

[00:20:53] Something that is very relevant in many ways.

[00:20:56] Just look at, I mean, the U.S. Navy is still using their power and might and aircraft carriers in the Middle East as a way of deterrence.

[00:21:05] What if you cannot keep up with that deterrence because Russia is, you know, creating a new battlefield underwater?

[00:21:12] So this is something that really stuck in my head when I talked to sources.

[00:21:17] And this is something very varying.

[00:21:20] Yeah.

[00:21:21] Yeah, indeed.

[00:21:22] And I'm assuming, are those, well, not necessarily speaking for the sources, but what is sort of the Western, is there a Western equivalent of this capability under sea, do you think?

[00:21:33] I heard that there are Western nations that have capabilities under sea that are similar to the Russians.

[00:21:41] Even though some of them in the 1990s has been reduced.

[00:21:46] I mean, it has not been financed the same way, you know, given the same budget as the Russians did.

[00:21:52] Basically, what Russia did after the breakup of the Soviet Union, there was still investment in this form of, yeah, seabed warfare.

[00:22:03] And also investment in their nuclear program.

[00:22:06] I mean, there are two things that they still were putting money into.

[00:22:10] And they want to have modern systems, modern ships.

[00:22:13] I mean, some of these ships are very old, to be honest.

[00:22:15] But yeah, Russia is still putting a lot of money, a lot of resources into these programs.

[00:22:22] Yeah.

[00:22:22] Yeah.

[00:22:22] Wow.

[00:22:23] And we've sort of talked about it before, but also sabotage seems to be a big sort of goal for these ships as well.

[00:22:29] Yes.

[00:22:30] There are capabilities that Russia has built up that are specifically meant for sabotage.

[00:22:37] There are units.

[00:22:39] I mean, Russia has this, it's called the main directorate of deep sea research, often called GOOGI.

[00:22:45] It's the acronym is GOOGI.

[00:22:47] It's a very secretive intelligence gathering unit of the Russian Navy with very strong ties to Russia's now infamous military intelligence service, GRU.

[00:22:59] It was established in the 1970s during the Cold War, during Soviet times.

[00:23:03] It's headquartered in St. Petersburg and also at the naval base at the Barents Sea.

[00:23:08] And it's called Olenya Bay.

[00:23:10] It's near Murmansk.

[00:23:13] And GRU operates approximately 50 to 60 ships and submarines.

[00:23:18] So it's quite a big unit.

[00:23:19] And there are also some parts of GOOGI that are stationed in Kalidindad, so very close to NATO territory.

[00:23:28] Yeah.

[00:23:29] And these operators, these parts of the Russian Navy, they are trained also in doing sabotage at sea.

[00:23:40] Yeah.

[00:23:40] And they are going deep down.

[00:23:42] I mean, they have these submarines that can go very, very, very deep.

[00:23:46] They can operate very deep.

[00:23:47] They have unmanned vehicles that they can use, drone systems to do underwater work in very high depth.

[00:23:55] And it's very dangerous also.

[00:23:57] I talked to NATO and they, to some people in NATO and they said, it's very dangerous what the Russians are doing.

[00:24:04] You have to be very skilled to operate in that depth and they are still doing it.

[00:24:08] Mm-hmm.

[00:24:09] So there's a big potential they could have an accident at some point.

[00:24:12] Yeah, there were accidents.

[00:24:13] I mean, one submarine of the GOOGI unit had this, yeah, we still don't really know what it was in detail, but several people were killed.

[00:24:23] I think even several dozen people died just a few years ago, 2019, I think it was.

[00:24:29] Was it an onboard fire, wasn't it, or something?

[00:24:32] Yeah, there was a fire and some kind of an explosion.

[00:24:35] And, yeah, I heard that there were several people that are regarded as real experts, very highly trained personnel that were killed in this accident.

[00:24:47] Yeah.

[00:24:47] But still very secretive.

[00:24:48] We don't really know much about it.

[00:24:50] Maybe H.I. Sutton doesn't know more about this incident, but it's a, yeah.

[00:24:56] So, yeah, incidents happen, accidents happen.

[00:24:59] And, yeah, it's very risky to operate in the way that GOOGI does.

[00:25:03] Yeah, indeed, indeed.

[00:25:04] Now, in that documentary you showed me there was a crew member connected to these ships who's given an interview about life on board.

[00:25:11] What have you learned from him?

[00:25:13] Yeah, we were able to talk to this person, and he was present on such one of these ships.

[00:25:20] The Siberiakov is one of these academic vessels.

[00:25:22] And he told us that there were, for example, certain places, certain areas of that ship that were off-limits, restricted areas.

[00:25:31] And regular crew members couldn't go, were not allowed to go there.

[00:25:35] And he also told us that the ship deliberately switched off positioning system.

[00:25:41] So, they became what's known as a dark vessel.

[00:25:46] So, you were not able to track them with the regular means.

[00:25:50] So, they switched it off deliberately because they wanted to cruise undetected.

[00:25:56] That's what this person told us.

[00:25:58] And he also told us that they are mapping the seafloor, that they are in detail mapping the seafloor,

[00:26:03] that they are using very powerful sonar systems to gather intelligence.

[00:26:08] And, yeah, we spoke to this person.

[00:26:10] He lives in the United Kingdom right now.

[00:26:14] He wanted to talk to us in an anonymous way.

[00:26:17] So, we didn't show his face or his name or anything.

[00:26:20] But we did some research.

[00:26:23] And he had footage to prove that he worked on these ships.

[00:26:26] He had video footage showing that he had worked on the Siberiakov.

[00:26:31] Yeah.

[00:26:31] And so, do they have a mixture of kind of like civilian and military kind of crew then?

[00:26:36] Oh, yes.

[00:26:36] Yeah.

[00:26:37] There were scientists also from European, from Western countries that went on these ships to go on scientific tours.

[00:26:45] Yeah.

[00:26:45] We saw pictures of like a photo of a group of scientists.

[00:26:49] And you see people from Germany, from France, Scandinavian countries that were present on these ships.

[00:26:57] I mean, now with the conflict in Ukraine and the more escalatory situation, I guess this is not the case anymore.

[00:27:05] But a few years ago, there were these scientists groups that would regularly go on these ships.

[00:27:12] And some of these ships even entered European harbors from time to time, which is not the case anymore now.

[00:27:17] And have any of those scientists spoken out about what they experienced at all?

[00:27:21] We tried to talk to some of them.

[00:27:23] Nobody really wanted to talk on the record.

[00:27:26] But I was surprised when a colleague of mine who found these pictures, they were just online because, I mean, these are just scientists, you know, civilians.

[00:27:34] There was no reason for them to hide that they once were on a certain ship and had these crews.

[00:27:42] So they were basically almost writing a diary about their time on the ship and what they were doing.

[00:27:47] But I guess they experienced the same as the person that we talked to, the crew member, saying certain parts are restricted areas where we had no access.

[00:27:58] And, I mean, there are these images, colleagues of ours from Denmark.

[00:28:02] They went up to a ship and, I mean, it's a civilian research ship.

[00:28:07] And they had a camera with them.

[00:28:09] And you can see some of the crew members, they were wearing a uniform and having an assault rifle in their hands.

[00:28:15] So, yeah.

[00:28:17] Yeah, yeah.

[00:28:17] I mean, I could understand that in certain parts of Africa where there's piracy, but in the Baltic Sea it's a bit unnecessary.

[00:28:24] Yeah.

[00:28:24] So, yeah, I mean, let's just be honest.

[00:28:28] I mean, there are members of the GRU present and members of Russian military present on these ships.

[00:28:33] I mean, yeah.

[00:28:34] Let's take a break and we'll be right back.

[00:28:51] There's been a recent instance in the Baltic Sea where an internet cable was sort of badly damaged in a suspected act of sabotage.

[00:28:59] And the Swedish authorities have currently ordered a Chinese registered ship called Yi Peng 3 to return to Sweden to help with investigations.

[00:29:09] And it's believed that Yi Peng's anchor was dragged along the seafloor damaging the cable.

[00:29:15] Now, this is not the first time this has happened because even last year another, well, it was a Hong Kong registered ship called New Polar Bear damaged the Baltic connector pipeline by also dragging its anchor.

[00:29:25] Is it possible that these Chinese ships are being used by Russia to damage cable's infrastructure on purpose in a way that has a bit of plausible deniability?

[00:29:35] Because dragging an anchor is quite – it's not something you can do easily because it makes a hell of a noise for a start.

[00:29:42] Yeah, it's hard to imagine that they just dropped the anchor and didn't realize that they were dragging the anchor for 100 kilometers or even more.

[00:29:55] Yeah, I mean, our minister of defense, the German minister of defense, he was really quick calling it a possible act of sabotage.

[00:30:02] And I was surprised by a very early statement indicating that this was an hybrid attack by Russia.

[00:30:09] So we do not know yet what happened a few weeks ago with these two cables in the Baltic Sea.

[00:30:16] There is a suspicion that this Chinese-registered Chinese-flagged ship, the Yi Peng 3, was involved.

[00:30:23] It's now anchoring close to Denmark and it's being guarded by the Navy and also by police ships from Denmark and Germany.

[00:30:32] So the Coast Guard that went out there, they are guarding the ship right now.

[00:30:38] And there's a joint criminal investigation by Sweden and by Finland that has been launched.

[00:30:45] And as far as we know, no investigators from any country have been on board of the ship.

[00:30:51] So no police, no military have boarded the Yi Peng 3 yet.

[00:30:55] We know that the vessel was in Russia before the incident happened.

[00:30:59] We know that there was at least one Russian national on the ship.

[00:31:03] And we know that the investigators suspect that the vessel has damaged the cables with its anchor.

[00:31:09] That's what we know.

[00:31:11] Why is it suspected to be a sabotage?

[00:31:14] Well, you just said, I mean, there was a similar incident that happened about a year ago.

[00:31:19] A pipeline and a cable, the Baltic connector running from Finland to Estonia, was destroyed by an anchor by a Hong Kong-registered ship named Nunu Polar Bear.

[00:31:32] So you can ask, I mean, is that just a coincidence?

[00:31:35] Now it's another Chinese-registered ship.

[00:31:38] Also, again, an anchor possibly that destroyed and cut these cables.

[00:31:45] I spoke to German intelligence sources about this.

[00:31:48] They have a very strong suspicion that this was a deliberate act so that the Yi Peng 3 also used the anchor to cut the cables.

[00:31:59] And if it turns out to be, let's say, a new trend, a new method and strategy, I would say this is a pretty smart move.

[00:32:08] Using Chinese vessels and their anchors to carry out these hybrid attacks.

[00:32:13] I mean, it's a fact.

[00:32:15] Western nations, European countries, will never be able to monitor in military terms.

[00:32:21] It's called, I mean, shadowing.

[00:32:23] So send out a ship to monitor another ship, to follow another ship.

[00:32:26] It's never going to be possible to monitor and shadow all Chinese vessels out there that enter European waters.

[00:32:34] And for obvious reasons, I mean, international trade and we all want our Christmas presents, you know.

[00:32:41] We'll also not be able to ban Chinese ships from the Baltic Sea and North Sea and from the harbors and whatever.

[00:32:49] So if Russia is using Chinese vessels, trade vessels, just regular civilian ships, they could work for them like a Trojan horse almost on the sea.

[00:33:02] Like cutting cables, using the anchor.

[00:33:04] And the crew will always say, you know, this was just an incident.

[00:33:06] Oh, oops, sorry, we didn't know.

[00:33:08] We dropped the anchor.

[00:33:09] Yeah.

[00:33:10] The big question for me would be, I mean, many people out there have the same question.

[00:33:15] And I know that there are talks also with the Chinese side about this.

[00:33:19] Would Beijing be angry about Russia using their vessels for such attacks?

[00:33:25] I mean, or would China benefit?

[00:33:29] Because there's also something to learn for them from these attacks, hybrid attacks.

[00:33:33] They gather information.

[00:33:34] They also want to know how quick can Western countries repair cables, pipelines.

[00:33:40] They learn a lot.

[00:33:41] And also when it comes to their own actions and operations in the South China Sea, operations against the Philippines and also Taiwan.

[00:33:50] So there's also some lessons learned maybe also for China.

[00:33:54] So maybe they don't care that Russia or a Russian crew or whatever is doing it with these vessels.

[00:34:01] But it's all speculation.

[00:34:01] But if they do it, I would say it's a smart move in that hybrid war.

[00:34:05] Yeah, definitely.

[00:34:06] I think with the old saying is it once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times is enemy actions.

[00:34:12] Maybe it's one more cable needs to be taken out by an anchor.

[00:34:16] Yeah.

[00:34:19] Oh, wow.

[00:34:20] So with the activities of spy ships in places like the Baltic Sea, they do highlight obviously the challenges of responding to these suspected espionage or sabotage missions.

[00:34:30] So what are the sort of legal and practical limitations in addressing the activities of these ships?

[00:34:37] Wow, that's a huge topic.

[00:34:39] I mean, law at sea is something you can talk about for hours.

[00:34:42] It's quite interesting stuff, but I'm really not an expert in law at sea.

[00:34:49] But I would briefly say there are laws and rules when many countries do not follow them.

[00:34:56] They do not stick to them.

[00:34:57] There's a lot of violations of these laws.

[00:35:02] There are almost no consequences if someone violates the law at sea.

[00:35:06] It's very hard, you know, to – I mean, there's no police out there, almost no police.

[00:35:13] So why is this happening?

[00:35:15] I mean, why are nations not sticking to certain laws and why they are, you know – because everything that happens under sea –

[00:35:25] this is just something that you should keep in mind all the time when talking about this.

[00:35:29] everything that happens under sea, or most of it, is still a mystery.

[00:35:34] It's still something that is very hard to investigate, to pinpoint certain nations, certain actions, certain units.

[00:35:42] I don't know.

[00:35:43] It's very, very hard.

[00:35:45] I mean, we talked about Nord Stream recently and who blew up the Nord Stream pipelines.

[00:35:50] And investigating such incidents is really hard.

[00:35:53] And this is something people realize just now.

[00:35:57] I mean, we know a lot about what's happening on the sea, you know, all these ships that you can see.

[00:36:02] But down there, it's still a mystery.

[00:36:05] Yeah, yeah.

[00:36:06] No, indeed, indeed.

[00:36:07] So what are the German government and NATO members doing about these ships at the moment?

[00:36:12] There has been a change in the approach to this problem of the Russian spy ships, I would say,

[00:36:20] at least since the start of the war in Ukraine.

[00:36:24] NATO has been pretty strict recently.

[00:36:26] And there are quick approaches to these activities.

[00:36:29] So when this incident with the two cables happened recently and this Chinese ship,

[00:36:34] there were, I mean, we looked at it because we are still tracking ships.

[00:36:37] We're still looking at the Baltic Sea and North Sea.

[00:36:39] We could see how NATO was reacting, how many of the NATO ships were just, you know, rushing out there.

[00:36:45] And also, you know, dispersing in certain areas of the Baltic Sea and to do the shadowing of other ships that were out there.

[00:36:56] And so we know that this, the reaction is more quick.

[00:36:59] It's more, yeah, it's a different approach to the whole thing.

[00:37:03] But it is an increasing concern for certain countries, especially in Scandinavia, but also Netherlands and Belgium,

[00:37:13] because it's a huge topic when it comes to these wind parks and all this energy sector as well.

[00:37:20] Yeah, NATO has established a unit.

[00:37:22] It's called the Critical Undersea Infrastructure Coordination Cell.

[00:37:27] It's an own unit that was established a few years ago, and it was led by a German general, Mr. Wiermann.

[00:37:33] We talked to him.

[00:37:33] He is also in our documentary.

[00:37:36] Just to raise the awareness for the problem and to, yeah, I mean, talk about what can be done.

[00:37:44] How can we have a more interconnected approach to it?

[00:37:50] I mean, there are now the new NATO members, Sweden and Finland, that are also, you know, part of the family.

[00:37:55] And they are also, you know, being now involved, more involved in all this, the whole shadowing of the ships.

[00:38:02] They have been before, by the way, even though they were not NATO members.

[00:38:05] There has been talk between NATO and Sweden about these ships and the shadowing, and there was some coordination going on.

[00:38:13] There's extensive monitoring going on.

[00:38:16] There's also intelligence gathering going on with regards to the Russian spy ships.

[00:38:20] So, also, the NATO side is very interested in, you know, having their intelligence or spy ships going around.

[00:38:28] The German government has announced a new law, a new law for the protection of critical infrastructure that will be in place.

[00:38:37] It's not in effect now because, let's say, our government is not in the best shape and form right now.

[00:38:44] We have early elections coming up in February.

[00:38:47] Yeah, and the German Federal Police, which is, I mean, some say it's just a symbolic act, but, I mean, at least they are doing it.

[00:38:55] I mean, the German Federal Police is getting a new base, a base is set up for the elite unit, for the Special Forces unit at the Baltic Sea in Rostock.

[00:39:04] So, this is the unit that was created for hostage situations and for terrorism-related cases, but they will now be stationed at the Baltic Sea, and it's quite useful for certain incidents because these guys, they, you know, they have divers.

[00:39:19] They know how to board a vessel, they can operate with helicopters.

[00:39:24] So, yeah, this is going to be set up soon, was announced by our Ministry of Interior.

[00:39:29] So, there's a lot of things that are going on.

[00:39:31] I know that there is also, within NATO, it's a regular topic that they talk about.

[00:39:38] And, yeah, question is, what can you do apart from looking at these shifts and then looking at what might have been done on the cables, you know?

[00:39:49] I mean, this is the game that they are playing.

[00:39:51] They see a ship having a certain pattern, a suspicious movement, and then they go there and they just look down at the ocean floor if something has been done.

[00:40:01] Yeah, yeah.

[00:40:02] No, it sounds like a lot of the right things are happening.

[00:40:04] I mean, are there any other options that are realistic that could counter these ships?

[00:40:09] I can't really think of any beyond what you've already described.

[00:40:12] There's not a lot that you can do, not a lot of options on the table.

[00:40:17] I mean, the Russian Navy ships, they are monitored and shadowed by NATO.

[00:40:22] It's a classy Cold War game, like playing cat and mouse.

[00:40:26] I mean, this has already been done.

[00:40:28] And, I mean, this is the we see you, you see us, don't do anything stupid kind of approach.

[00:40:36] And the research vessels, the academic fleet, it's also being monitored and shadowed.

[00:40:43] I mean, many European countries have restricted the access to their harbors for these ships.

[00:40:49] So, they are almost banned Russian ships entirely because of the spy activities.

[00:40:57] But there's also some interesting cases.

[00:41:00] I mean, Norway and Russia has to do with the fishing area that they are both using high up there in the north.

[00:41:08] They still have some agreements.

[00:41:10] So, the Russian fishing trawlers, they are allowed to enter Norwegian harbors.

[00:41:16] And also the other way around.

[00:41:19] This is like old contracts and old things that they have set up to share the fishing grounds.

[00:41:27] This is also something that we heard they are now talking about.

[00:41:31] Can there be something done?

[00:41:32] Because it's also a risk, you know, that Russia is using fishing trawlers, maybe, to gather information and intelligence.

[00:41:40] And we know that there are some Russian government degrees and the decree that said, you know, if a civilian ship is being approached by the military, it has to cooperate with the military in certain ways.

[00:41:58] So, it increases the threat coming from these civilian ships.

[00:42:05] But what is needed is a far more sophisticated monitoring system underwater.

[00:42:12] This is, I'm pretty sure.

[00:42:15] Some people told me that NATO needs to rethink the policy when it comes to seabed warfare.

[00:42:22] Because there's a lot of intelligence sharing when it comes to the regular Navy stuff.

[00:42:27] But what happens underwater is still, you know, most nations stick to themselves.

[00:42:32] And it's regarded as highly secret, top secret.

[00:42:35] If you ask people, is there a full picture paper, regular paper being written about the underwater threat from Russia?

[00:42:45] And what you hear is, this is top secret.

[00:42:48] And only a few countries are, you know, giving in information into the NATO analyzing seabed warfare and what is happening down there.

[00:42:57] So, there could be a more intense and more broad intelligence sharing between NATO countries.

[00:43:03] And yeah, I mean, setting up more sophisticated monitoring systems because some countries have, they just, they didn't care in the 1990s.

[00:43:10] They just, you know, they didn't rebuild that stuff.

[00:43:14] So, yeah.

[00:43:15] Yeah, it does feel like, certainly since the 90s, a lot of, there's been a lot of decline, should we say, across the West with regards to countering Russia.

[00:43:24] And I don't think this, I don't think yet there's the political will to really address that decline.

[00:43:29] Sure.

[00:43:30] It costs a lot of money.

[00:43:31] And in the end, it costs a lot of money and it will, it affects your economy in general.

[00:43:37] And maybe that's not a smart way to win an election.

[00:43:41] I don't know.

[00:43:42] Yeah, yeah.

[00:43:43] Yeah, it's a difficult one.

[00:43:44] Is there much consensus among these sort of European countries and NATO members about this issue?

[00:43:50] And have there been steps to take and to sort of strengthen the collaboration between those affected countries?

[00:43:56] There are certain countries that have, let's say, more interest in this than others.

[00:44:02] Which is fascinating because if you look at the Southwest European countries, Spain, Portugal, they have ports, they have harbors, they, you know, they have a long coastline.

[00:44:16] But some of them, these countries that are not really, let's say, have the same focus on what happens in Ukraine as the rest of Europe.

[00:44:25] I was told by someone from our German intelligence service that they had a meeting.

[00:44:30] I think it was in Spain.

[00:44:33] And then they said, they talked about the war in Europe and the Spanish counterpart said, oh, yeah, right.

[00:44:38] There's a war in Eastern Europe.

[00:44:40] But for them, North Africa, migration, terrorism is a bigger problem than this Ukrainian thing.

[00:44:47] But when it comes to these spy activities, I mean, one of these ships, these spy vessels just recently was present at the Portuguese coastline.

[00:44:57] And there are also cables running from Portugal to the United States.

[00:45:01] So also these countries should be more interested in what's going on in their oceans.

[00:45:08] And yeah.

[00:45:08] Are you aware of discussions about what point Article 5 of NATO would be invoked in response to sort of Russian activities?

[00:45:15] Yeah, that's a good question.

[00:45:17] I mean, there's a lot of talk now about could a hybrid attack, could hybrid warfare trigger Article 5 of NATO?

[00:45:26] And when would it be triggered?

[00:45:28] Are there any red lines?

[00:45:29] And how is this?

[00:45:31] I mean, the hybrid war in Europe is escalating, to be honest.

[00:45:34] There are some incidents, some cases that are not related to Russia.

[00:45:39] I mean, there's also, yeah, sometimes it's more hysterical, you know, reporting about this.

[00:45:44] But some cases, I mean, some people are in court in the United Kingdom, in the UK for sabotage.

[00:45:52] In Poland, the Czech Republic, also Germany.

[00:45:56] I mean, there are investigated cases.

[00:45:58] There was a sabotage guy in Paris.

[00:46:00] He almost blew himself up in a hotel while building a bomb.

[00:46:05] So there's a lot of hybrid thing going on.

[00:46:09] And sometimes I have, I don't know, I look at this and I see European politicians almost ignoring it.

[00:46:18] But it will not go away if you ignore it.

[00:46:21] And Russia is willing to escalate this shadow war against NATO.

[00:46:26] So, yeah, that's why I think it's important to talk about what is hybrid warfare and will it trigger Article 5 or I don't know.

[00:46:35] But, you know, recently our director of the BND of our foreign spy service, Bruno Karl, he highlighted this.

[00:46:43] He said recently that there is intelligence indicating some high-ranking officials in the Russian Ministry of Defense.

[00:46:52] They do believe, that's what he said, they do believe Article 5 of NATO will not be applied if tested.

[00:47:01] And, yeah, I mean, does Russia want a war with NATO?

[00:47:05] Probably not at this point.

[00:47:07] But some military intelligence analysts say if the war in Ukraine will end, I mean, in any way you can imagine,

[00:47:16] then Russia is likely able to attack NATO by 2027, 2028 because they are building up their army.

[00:47:25] Everything is now focused on war and military and the whole society is, you know, put in that direction.

[00:47:32] And just imagine if they would send over North Koreans without uniform into Lithuania.

[00:47:40] I mean, what do you do?

[00:47:43] What do you do?

[00:47:44] Do you invoke Article 5 against North Korea?

[00:47:49] I mean, what do you do?

[00:47:50] Yeah, yeah, this is the problem, isn't it?

[00:47:52] When people aren't wearing kind of a uniform, it becomes very murky about the same problem with terrorism as well.

[00:47:58] It kind of gets into that situation.

[00:48:00] You touched upon it just now.

[00:48:01] But, I mean, what are sort of the feelings at the moment with regards to the sort of incoming Trump administration with regards to this issue?

[00:48:10] Because, obviously, I know there are anxieties about what the Trump administration may or may not do in defense of Europe.

[00:48:17] And I don't know if anybody you've spoken to has expressed any anxieties or any positives.

[00:48:22] There might be positives of the Trump administration.

[00:48:24] I don't know.

[00:48:24] I think the big positive about it is that the Europeans now should think about themselves and about, you know, we have to grow up.

[00:48:36] We have to become adults when it comes to security policy and defense.

[00:48:42] And we need to grow up and we need to grow up fast because the United States will have a different focus.

[00:48:49] Whatever Mr. Trump is doing, I mean, he is probably not going to leave NATO.

[00:48:55] But still, I mean, the United States focus will be more on Asia, more on China.

[00:49:00] There's no doubt about it in the future.

[00:49:03] And, yeah, I mean, within NATO, this is talk of the town.

[00:49:07] I mean, I heard that there were some recent, you know, some people would call it say goodbye talks from certain people in the U.S. intelligence community.

[00:49:19] Ms. Avril Haines.

[00:49:20] Ms. Avril Haines was recently, I think she was in Brussels recently, talking to intelligence people from NATO.

[00:49:29] And, yeah, I mean, we all don't know what will happen.

[00:49:32] Trump said that he will, you know, solve the crisis in Ukraine and the war in Ukraine within 24 hours, he said.

[00:49:40] Nobody believes that.

[00:49:41] But maybe there is some movement there.

[00:49:43] Maybe there is something going on.

[00:49:45] It moves in a certain direction.

[00:49:48] Yeah, it's, I don't know.

[00:49:50] NATO will be different, I guess.

[00:49:51] And the Europeans have to spend more money on defense and have to think about how to create a deterrence in the Baltics, for example, that is really a deterrence.

[00:50:06] What does it really mean?

[00:50:07] I mean, as I just said, I mean, the question would be, would Mr. Trump send the U.S. military to defend Tallinn and Riga?

[00:50:17] People in Riga and in Tallinn, some of them, they don't believe that.

[00:50:21] But they know that probably Sweden, Denmark, Norway and other countries will be on their side.

[00:50:29] So it's more, we should more think about, you know, European defense in a way.

[00:50:34] But it will cost us a lot of money.

[00:50:36] Yes, yes, indeed, indeed.

[00:50:38] Well, what are the sort of feelings of the public in Germany and sort of the Baltic state about these ships?

[00:50:44] And even, you know, some of the sort of wider issues that we're talking about as well, sort of NATO spending and defense spending?

[00:50:50] Yeah, I think spending and the economic situation in general and what does it mean?

[00:50:59] You know, does increased defense spending mean that I have less money in my pocket at the end of the year?

[00:51:05] Can I afford going on holidays in the future?

[00:51:09] And I mean, this is all things that are of importance for the German public.

[00:51:13] I think so.

[00:51:14] There are more important topics to the German public than the spy ships, I guess.

[00:51:19] Yes.

[00:51:21] But in general, the conflict with Russia and the increasing threat coming from espionage and sabotage is gaining more attention now.

[00:51:31] Yeah.

[00:51:31] I guess so.

[00:51:33] And, yeah, I mean, the attacks on the Nord Stream pipelines, they were a huge topic.

[00:51:38] And they were discussed all over Germany.

[00:51:41] And I mean, some people believe it were the Americans.

[00:51:43] Some people believe it was the Ukrainians, whatever.

[00:51:46] Some people don't care.

[00:51:47] But it's a very highly polarizing topic.

[00:51:52] And, yeah, I mean, it highlighted the threat of critical infrastructure and energy supply.

[00:51:57] So I think for some people, it's still an important topic.

[00:52:02] But it's about defense and defense spending.

[00:52:06] And, I mean, we have an election coming up in February.

[00:52:09] This will be one of the huge topics.

[00:52:12] I mean, it's one of the things where our politicians really struggle to tell people that, of course, we have welfare.

[00:52:21] We have a health system and everything working.

[00:52:28] But spending more money for defense means that you have to take the money from somewhere.

[00:52:33] Yeah.

[00:52:34] Yeah.

[00:52:35] I'd say, yeah.

[00:52:36] Yeah, hard sell at the moment, probably.

[00:52:39] Yeah.

[00:52:40] Well, on a slightly different note, have you seen one of these spy ships yourself?

[00:52:45] And if so, what was that moment like?

[00:52:46] Actually, I have seen one of these ships, but it's a few years ago and it was actually in the Mediterranean.

[00:52:53] Oh, cool.

[00:52:54] Yeah.

[00:52:55] And I didn't know what it was.

[00:52:56] I had no idea about these spy ships.

[00:52:59] But I remember that the local media had something back then about this Russian ship that was driving around there in the Mediterranean.

[00:53:08] And, yeah, but I have a colleague, Marie.

[00:53:11] She was the one producing our movie.

[00:53:14] She was one of the three people that basically did that movie, made that movie.

[00:53:20] And she was out there and she was filming these ships.

[00:53:25] And we also used a drone to film one of these vessels.

[00:53:28] And my colleague, she also went up with NATO all the way up to the Faroe Islands, very, very up north.

[00:53:36] Yeah.

[00:53:36] To see what NATO is doing there, how they are shadowing these Russian ships.

[00:53:41] And, yeah, it is impressive.

[00:53:43] But, to be honest, a military, a Navy ship, a proper Navy ship is more impressive than these academic vessels.

[00:53:52] Yeah.

[00:53:53] Yeah.

[00:53:53] One or two of them looked a bit clapped out.

[00:53:55] Those blue ones that I saw early on in the documentary.

[00:53:58] Yeah.

[00:53:59] I mean, they are big ships.

[00:54:02] And they're becoming more and more interesting.

[00:54:04] The more you know about what's on the ship, like the technical stuff, the submarines that they're having, the underwater drones.

[00:54:11] And, yeah, but, I mean, a proper Navy ship is more impressive than these ones.

[00:54:17] Yeah, I think the Royal Fleet Auxiliary in the UK have a ship called the Proteus.

[00:54:22] It's kind of similar.

[00:54:23] But it has the capability to look after the cables and has a lot of submarines that can drop in and stuff.

[00:54:29] So, that might be the British equivalent of such a vessel.

[00:54:33] I mean, we have talked about the Russians a lot.

[00:54:35] Yeah.

[00:54:35] It's our documentary.

[00:54:37] Our investigation was about the Russian activities.

[00:54:39] But, I mean, there was Western espionage activities all over the place in the Cold War times as well.

[00:54:47] I mean, one of the first incidents was the, what's called Operation Ivy Bells.

[00:54:51] Yes, Ivy Bells.

[00:54:52] Yeah, where they tapped the cables.

[00:54:53] Yeah, fascinating.

[00:54:54] Where the American submarine went all the way down there in the, was near Kamchatka Peninsula, the Ochoz Sea, where they tapped this cable, the Soviet cable back then.

[00:55:08] And it's a fascinating case still.

[00:55:11] And I think the bug that they used, it was a huge one, like five, six meters long, even longer.

[00:55:17] I think you can see it now in, you shouldn't go, but you can see it in Moscow in the museum.

[00:55:22] Oh, wow.

[00:55:24] They have it up in the museum in Moscow.

[00:55:26] Oh, cool.

[00:55:27] Probably we should not go because then we will be, you know, we will be traded for some spies.

[00:55:34] Quite possibly.

[00:55:35] Yeah, I don't think we'll be getting VIP treatment.

[00:55:36] And I don't think that, I'll have to wait for this cold water thaw, I think, before we go to Russia now.

[00:55:42] But it's an amazing story, Operation Ivy Bells.

[00:55:47] And also the fact that back in the day you were not able to transmit what you were wiretapping, but you have to store it on this bug.

[00:55:55] Yeah.

[00:55:56] And another ship had to come along and collect it.

[00:55:57] Yeah.

[00:55:58] Yeah.

[00:55:58] And another ship had to come again and again after a few weeks and then collect that stuff.

[00:56:03] It's amazing, isn't it?

[00:56:05] Yeah.

[00:56:06] It's like when the old spy satellites had to shoot film from space back to Earth.

[00:56:12] Yeah, it's crazy.

[00:56:13] It's amazing how things have moved on.

[00:56:15] I just wanted to talk about Ivy Bells briefly because, I mean, there's also Western activity on the seafloor.

[00:56:23] And there's also espionage activity coming from NATO.

[00:56:27] I hope so.

[00:56:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:56:29] Yeah, yeah, I agree.

[00:56:31] I agree.

[00:56:31] Well, yeah, I think the Proteus might be a part of all that new moves.

[00:56:37] But we'll see.

[00:56:38] I don't know.

[00:56:38] Because it's a very impressive ship.

[00:56:39] Well, it's a very weird looking ship, but it looks very similar to one of the Russian spy ships, but a more modern one.

[00:56:44] So before we wrap up, is there anything else you'd like to add on this topic before we finish today?

[00:56:50] Yeah, for those interested in this topic, I mean, there's a documentary out there.

[00:56:56] You can find it on YouTube.

[00:56:57] There's an English version up on YouTube as well.

[00:56:59] Up on the show notes, yeah.

[00:57:00] Yeah, the title is Putin's Fleet, Russian Espionage in the Baltic Sea.

[00:57:04] And yeah, thanks for putting it up on the show notes.

[00:57:07] So check it out if you want to know more about what we did.

[00:57:11] And if you want to really dive deep into this topic, you should definitely look and follow and read the stuff from H.I. Sutton.

[00:57:20] He's a real expert on all the things maritime security, Russian spy ships, cables, whatever.

[00:57:25] He's a real, real expert.

[00:57:28] And yeah, it's fascinating.

[00:57:30] And yeah, I think we will see some more interesting stuff coming up.

[00:57:37] Hopefully not that damaging and not life-threatening and whatever.

[00:57:43] But yeah, fascinating to see that this old Cold War stuff is now up again.

[00:57:48] And it's very, yeah.

[00:57:50] Yeah, I hope it just stays at a kind of, shall we say, academic stroke irritation level, never higher than that.

[00:57:57] Yeah.

[00:57:58] Yeah.

[00:57:58] But it is deeply fascinating.

[00:58:00] So we'll be keeping an eye on it.

[00:58:01] And hope, well, I'd love to, at some point, I need to try and figure out how I can go spy ship hunting and see if I can find one.

[00:58:09] That's not all right, YouTube.

[00:58:11] You can track them.

[00:58:12] I mean, everybody can track them at least till the point when they switch off the AIS system.

[00:58:18] And they do it regularly.

[00:58:20] They do it, you know, almost all the time.

[00:58:23] We tracked a ship recently after the incident with the cable, these two cables in the Baltic Sea a few weeks ago.

[00:58:29] So my colleague showed me a vessel and it had switched off the system for years.

[00:58:37] Yes, yes.

[00:58:38] There was one I looked up that had been off since like March 2023.

[00:58:42] Yeah.

[00:58:43] For years.

[00:58:44] Yeah.

[00:58:44] They're driving around the ocean without giving away their positioning data.

[00:58:48] But there are various other ways to – we had a – I don't want to put out the wrong name, but something like Global Fishing Trekking or something like that.

[00:58:58] And it's actually an NGO.

[00:59:00] It's actually an NGO looking into illegal fishing worldwide.

[00:59:03] And what they are doing is they are looking at light points in the ocean because even if a ship is turning off, switching off the AIS system, it probably still has a light on.

[00:59:16] It's not completely dark.

[00:59:18] So you can sometimes just follow these ships seeing these dots of light in the ocean.

[00:59:24] And, of course, what we also did was you cannot track, you cannot see the Russian ship, but what you can see is the NATO ship following it.

[00:59:33] Yes.

[00:59:33] Sometimes you see these NATO ships going out and shadowing another ship, and then you know it's probably a ship out there.

[00:59:42] Oh, wow.

[00:59:43] Wow.

[00:59:43] And actually, your colleagues in the documentary, they got stopped by one of those NATO ships, didn't they, as they were following the Russian boat?

[00:59:49] Yeah.

[00:59:50] Yeah.

[00:59:50] Yeah.

[00:59:50] Sometimes, I mean, there's crazy stuff going around there.

[00:59:54] Sometimes the Russians, they are using the radio to send over some – I don't know.

[01:00:00] Recently, I was told some Soviet music.

[01:00:06] Yeah.

[01:00:08] Yeah.

[01:00:10] Yeah.

[01:00:10] Yeah.

[01:00:10] Yeah.

[01:00:13] Yeah.

[01:00:16] Yeah.

[01:00:17] Yeah.

[01:00:21] Yeah.

[01:00:31] They're not transmitting those number stations, are they?

[01:00:32] They're not having AVR, because I think they formally gave up on it, didn't they?

[01:00:35] I don't know.

[01:00:37] Yeah.

[01:00:38] Well, there we go.

[01:00:40] I think we're going to have to relearn some of the old school methods, I think.

[01:00:42] Because once the satellites are gone and the undersea cables are gone, we're kind of a bit in trouble.

[01:00:48] True.

[01:00:48] Back to pigeons.

[01:00:49] Yes.

[01:00:52] To MI14, I think that was.

[01:00:55] Excellent.

[01:00:55] Well, Florian, where can listeners find out more about you and your work?

[01:00:58] Yeah.

[01:00:59] You can find me on social media on X, formerly Twitter, or on Blue Sky now, because many people are switching over to Blue Sky.

[01:01:08] And yeah, there I will post all my media reporting, my coverage, and everything regarding intelligence stuff.

[01:01:16] Yeah.

[01:01:16] Yeah.

[01:01:17] Fantastic.

[01:01:17] Well, thank you for joining me today.

[01:01:18] It's been really great.

[01:01:19] It was a pleasure.

[01:01:20] Thank you, sir.

[01:01:51] Thanks for listening.

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