S8 Ep39: The legal case for the victims of Havana Syndrome with Mark S. Zaid

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[00:00:12] This is Secrets and Spies.

[00:00:27] Secrets and Spies is a podcast that dives into the world of espionage, terrorism, geopolitics,

[00:00:33] and intrigue.

[00:00:34] This podcast is produced and hosted by Chris Carr.

[00:00:38] On today's podcast I'm joined by National Security lawyer Mark Zaid, and we discuss the

[00:00:43] legal case for the victims of the so-called anonymous health instance otherwise known as

[00:00:48] Havana Syndrome.

[00:00:50] Mark and I discuss the US government's denial and how that affects his clients who have

[00:00:54] had their lives disrupted by these alleged attacks.

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[00:01:20] I hope you find this episode interesting, thank you very much for listening, take

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[00:01:25] Mark Zaid, welcome to the podcast, it's great to have you on.

[00:01:49] Thank you, it's my pleasure, I appreciate the invite.

[00:01:51] It's great to have you here because I wanted to chat to you today obviously about these

[00:01:54] anomalous health instance which means sort of catching the news and people's imaginations.

[00:01:59] But before we get into that, for the benefit of listeners can you just tell us a little

[00:02:02] bit about yourself?

[00:02:04] Sure, so I've been practicing law now for over three decades, I'm a New Yorker,

[00:02:10] I do have British connections actually.

[00:02:13] I spent a semester in college working for a member of the House of Parliament back

[00:02:20] in 1988 when Maggie was in office, it was a phenomenal experience, guy's name was Gary

[00:02:26] Waller sadly has passed away, he was up from the Lake District in Keithley as I recall,

[00:02:35] West Yorkshire I believe if I remember correctly.

[00:02:39] Fantastic experience absolutely loved it.

[00:02:42] I also couple other kind of background explanations that tie me into the United Kingdom.

[00:02:50] I also handled the Pan Am 103 Lockerbie bombing, I filed the first lawsuit against the government

[00:02:56] of Libya for the bombing, spent a little time up in Lockerbie, wonderful, sweetest folks

[00:03:03] probably that I've met so friendly.

[00:03:06] I also represented Muhammad Al-Fayed and handled all of any issues relating to the death of Princess

[00:03:13] Diana and his son Doty here in the United States for about three years or so.

[00:03:18] But I'm predominantly a national security lawyer, I handle cases on behalf of US federal

[00:03:26] employees particularly within the intelligence community and the military and law enforcement

[00:03:31] communities but especially intelligence communities and I dive down into some really wild adventures

[00:03:40] sort of just like this one frankly where there is a whole host of information that frankly

[00:03:48] is only visible beneath the surface, sort of like the iceberg that sank the Titanic

[00:03:53] since we just passed the anniversary on that because most of the evidence and what

[00:03:58] we're going to talk about today is classified but there's enough out there that points us

[00:04:03] in a particular direction.

[00:04:04] Yeah, well thank you very much for all that and through your history I just hearing, oh

[00:04:09] that could be a good podcast, that could be a very good podcast.

[00:04:12] Absolutely, love to talk about all of those topics very near and dear to my heart.

[00:04:18] Yeah, yeah, well let's kick off so are you able to tell us about how many clients

[00:04:21] you represent who have been victims of this anomalous health incidents and are

[00:04:26] you able to tell us a bit about sort of their backgrounds and why they would have been targeted?

[00:04:31] I represent somewhere around two dozen victims or their family members, well all victims

[00:04:38] but federal employees or their family members because many of these incidents around the

[00:04:44] world happened in their homes so that meant that at times their spouse, their child

[00:04:51] sometimes even their het was impacted at the same time or only the family member was impacted

[00:04:58] if only that family member was home.

[00:05:01] I started on this case because this is important because everybody talks to it about Havana

[00:05:07] syndrome and I'd love to explain why I don't think Havana syndrome is the right term,

[00:05:13] it's not one I use anomalous health incidents, AHAs but my first case was a national

[00:05:20] security agency, the NSA employee over a decade ago and he was hit in around 1995 or 6 in a

[00:05:32] classified location although I've seen one media report identify it as Moscow and I

[00:05:39] was working right years before the incidents in Havana happened.

[00:05:46] Once Havana happened and we started to have a greater sense that this was a bigger story

[00:05:53] than what we thought.

[00:05:54] I mean I remember telling the NSA that what's the problem, why won't you cooperate with

[00:05:59] us?

[00:06:00] We're just trying to get workman's compensation now injured in the line of duty for this

[00:06:04] individual two people were injured one had already died.

[00:06:08] You know it's going to be so inexpensive for you, you're not going to open up

[00:06:11] Pandora's box without understanding there actually was a Pandora's box that then opened in Havana

[00:06:19] Cuba and from that I started to then represent State Department, Defense Intelligence Agency,

[00:06:28] the Intel wing of the Department of Defense, the CIA of course, the Central Intelligence

[00:06:33] Agency, Federal Bureau of Investigation, FBI agents and analysts, USAID, the Agency for

[00:06:41] International Development, even the Commerce Department because there are foreign commercial

[00:06:47] service officers essentially they operate under the State Department as diplomats but

[00:06:53] their function is to handle trade issues when they're overseas and there were several

[00:06:59] FCOs injured in China in the aftermath of Havana in 2017 when a number of State Department

[00:07:09] and diplomatic personnel were injured in China.

[00:07:16] At least for me I limit my representation to federal employees and their family members.

[00:07:26] The commonality, the common theme through almost all of them is that they were working

[00:07:35] on operations against Russia.

[00:07:41] Some of them appear to literally have just been mistaken identity.

[00:07:46] I have one client in China who was foreign commercial service and we could never understand

[00:07:54] why would this person be hit?

[00:07:56] It doesn't make sense.

[00:07:57] Well it made more sense when we found out that the person who occupied their apartment

[00:08:03] before them was CIA and it was very likely that it was just a mistaken identity and

[00:08:11] they hit the department without realizing that the person had moved or there just

[00:08:17] might not be explanations.

[00:08:19] Some of these are going to be very difficult to frankly understand and a lot of it of course

[00:08:25] beyond saying yeah Russia is the connection what they did their work that the clients

[00:08:30] do particularly those who are in the intelligence community is all classified.

[00:08:34] One of the victims named in the 60 minutes documentary has been called Carrie I don't

[00:08:39] think it's a real name can you talk to us a bit about what she experienced?

[00:08:45] Carrie is a domestic AHI victim a special agent of the Federal Bureau of Investigation

[00:08:52] she was based out of Key West Florida the bottom of the Americas or us the United States

[00:09:00] America obviously not all the Americas but the closest location to Cuba not that that

[00:09:06] has a relation but Key West is a huge spy environment very well known there's a lot

[00:09:13] of military bases down there and surveillance and satellite technology and all sorts of technological

[00:09:23] functions within the military and Intel community it's a real jump and off point for a lot of

[00:09:27] agencies so there's a lot of activity that's down there for many different intelligence

[00:09:33] agencies she as she described in the 60 minutes broadcast underwent a number of incidents of

[00:09:44] where it is consistent with anomalous health incidents some sort of directed energy whatever

[00:09:49] it might be so much so that in the midst of one her cell phone battery case the

[00:09:56] battery expanded and broke the case I mean so there are examples like that in fact where

[00:10:05] devices is not the first one I have other clients that have experienced this devices whether

[00:10:11] computers or other electronics have visually demonstrated some sort of anomaly so it's

[00:10:21] not just the person going through the experience there's actually other evidence that this happened

[00:10:28] now the beauty of her case is that while she cannot discuss anything that she worked on for

[00:10:38] the FBI as an operational aspect and by the way she she appeared in 60 minutes with approval

[00:10:47] with authorization from the FBI I arranged for that so there these are no rogue individuals who

[00:10:53] were going forth we coordinated everything so I knew what the limitations were she was the

[00:10:59] only female FBI agent based down in that location and local law enforcement arrested a Russian

[00:11:08] and it's shown in the segment that they the local law enforcement told 60 minutes and others

[00:11:17] that yeah this individual was where we arrested them they had he had these this weird technological

[00:11:22] devices that couldn't wipe out the GPS system all the electronics in the car he supposedly a

[00:11:29] chef but he in fact he's appeared on television shows as a chef but he's got all these

[00:11:35] records of bank transactions out tens of thousands of dollars he's some of what they didn't show actually

[00:11:42] in the broadcast is he's sitting in the cop car because it's being filmed right there's a camera

[00:11:47] not only body cams of the officers but a camera in the car and he's talking to himself but on

[00:11:54] camera and he's using all these spy terms and he's gibberish at a lot of times but it almost

[00:12:02] sounds like he's talking in code and sending message like he knows what's going on and in fact

[00:12:08] he could have been bailed out and he chose not to be bailed out and it's known that he was

[00:12:14] interrogated by the FBI because the local law enforcement officers revealed that and while we

[00:12:22] were in the midst of finding him for this broadcast we learned literally that two weeks

[00:12:27] earlier he had supposedly been killed on the front in Ukraine that he for whatever reason

[00:12:34] went back to Russia after like two years or so and then died it was it was quite an interesting

[00:12:42] shock could be completely coincidental who knows we don't know but coincidences add up so she is

[00:12:50] one of the stronger domestic cases for incidents there are many others of federal employees especially

[00:13:01] the FBI and CIA and State Department but most of these are not known because almost all of them

[00:13:10] in fact at least all the ones I know of they still work for the US government

[00:13:15] and they just don't speak out yeah with that Russian man's it the tally covalent I hope I

[00:13:20] got that pronunciation right believe me that's yeah in the 60 minutes documentary kind of implied

[00:13:26] that he had a background in the GRU in electronics and so on and it struck me as a bit odd that

[00:13:32] somebody with that background would somehow be able to get a kind of get a visa to work in

[00:13:36] the States as a chef it just seemed very weird there's a lot of weird things surrounding this

[00:13:40] guy his his background education coming from those who are far more experienced on the Russian

[00:13:47] aspect than I am as far as knowing the personnel of Russian intelligence and military intelligence

[00:13:55] that someone trained in the manner he was the investment that the Russians put into him

[00:14:01] aren't going to just let him leave Russia go to the United States and become a chef

[00:14:06] hey James Jesus Angleton the infamous CIA spy master you know he loved orchids right he named

[00:14:14] orchids on the side you know you can have some parallel you know I'll say strange in the sense

[00:14:21] of the combination of spying and plants you know botany or spying and cooking you know maybe

[00:14:27] some people would see that as strange it the notion of participating in that no oh fine you

[00:14:33] know he's got hobbies the notion that he left somehow as a young officer with scientific training

[00:14:43] of that nature and then just comes to the United States is from the those who know their

[00:14:50] expertise of that system is just incredible to believe with the obvious implications that

[00:14:58] this individual was sent here as essentially an illegal if anyone has watched the Americans

[00:15:05] television show that he was here as an illegal involved with whatever operations beyond AHI

[00:15:14] being just one of them yeah yeah he was a no very interesting man he just struck me instantly for

[00:15:21] his background stuff that man's clearly a spy now you sort of talked a bit about the attacks

[00:15:26] already are there is there anything else that you can add about the commonalities of the attacks

[00:15:30] I feel like you do you have covered quite a lot of that well the key thing and this was said on

[00:15:34] the 60 minutes broadcast by Greg Edgreen who was the senior DOD official handling AHI investigations

[00:15:46] within the Defense Intelligence Agency is this isn't just the clerks the secretaries the

[00:15:55] the guards at our embassies or spy bases these are very often the top of the top that we have

[00:16:05] these are folks who one would be known to the adversary quite frankly you know a lot of people

[00:16:12] in the public don't recognize how coordinated the spy game is yes there are spies who the

[00:16:19] other side doesn't know of but a lot of our spies as I do air quotes although they are spies are known

[00:16:27] to the other side I mean either because they're literally declared as such or it's so obvious

[00:16:34] that they are in fact some of the people who we believe have been hit who were not spies

[00:16:41] but they were with spies at the time and they were acting in ways in which it wouldn't be

[00:16:51] surprising that the adversary would think they are spies you know they were just kind of playing

[00:16:56] games and and doing their own little trainings and things like that it made them appear to be

[00:17:02] something they weren't the adversary doesn't realize this and boom hits them I will say

[00:17:08] I think every continent but Antarctica we have identified hits

[00:17:14] AHI in in different locations I mean there are on the African continent though those really haven't

[00:17:21] been discussed publicly but they do exist most of the ones that have been publicly discussed

[00:17:28] are in Europe we saw Frankfurt on the 60 Minutes episode Vienna is a very huge location

[00:17:35] Northern Virginia the Washington DC area obviously Key West like we've said or Key West and Miami

[00:17:43] again a hotbed of Intel activity particularly with the Russians and it doesn't mean that there

[00:17:51] aren't other countries involved it doesn't mean that there aren't other nationalities involved

[00:17:56] the Russians use cutouts all the time proxies to use other people you know it locals domestics

[00:18:04] that they hire who may not even know what the heck they're involved with in doing you know

[00:18:10] there it's very much a big game for a lot of these it's just a very dangerous one no indeed and

[00:18:17] this has been going on a lot longer than we've known about so you said was it 1995 yes so

[00:18:22] there's my working theory and this is the theory I believe this goes back decades now

[00:18:30] in saying that one has to understand well what does that mean do you mean like we've never known

[00:18:36] about diplomats being hit with these whatever weapons no no that's not what I'm saying what

[00:18:40] I'm saying is the technology for one has been since the 50s whether it's microwaves RF freak

[00:18:49] some I guess radio frequencies RF's I'm not sure what ad word you put on after frequency

[00:18:54] because probably redundant to say radio RF frequencies but whatever this directed energy

[00:19:00] and I imagine it could take the form of multiple types I'm not an expert in that type of technology

[00:19:07] so but microwaves let's just use it as that or directed energy for one thing back in the 60s

[00:19:15] 70s and even into the 80s but 60s and 70s in particular we had what's called the Moscow signal

[00:19:22] there's no speculation about this this is something that is very well documented admitted

[00:19:29] the I mean the rush the Soviets admitted it the US government has admitted it there's countless

[00:19:34] documents online you can just look up by googling Moscow signal and it was that the

[00:19:40] Soviet Union was bathing the US embassy in Moscow with low level microwaves and we didn't

[00:19:47] know why I'm not sure we we know why I don't know if the public record says it this is the suspicion

[00:19:54] was especially based on other things we know that this was setting off technology that was

[00:20:01] within hidden within the embassy you know the famous situation where the Soviets gave us a US

[00:20:08] seal an in Eagle for the ambassador to hang in his office which he did for like seven years and

[00:20:15] it turns out there was a listening device in that but it was a specialized listening device

[00:20:21] that we had not seen before that was energized engaged by radio frequencies or microwaves

[00:20:29] they forget which that would turn it on and that type of technology was being used the

[00:20:35] US government where the US somewhere in the US we invented it initially in the 50s it's clearly

[00:20:41] been worked on you know I'm sure all of our countries and the primary ones in the world

[00:20:46] you know have have developed it further so it seems that this originally started as a

[00:20:56] listening surveillance type technology extraction of information and in the midst of it clearly

[00:21:04] it it became known through just even the commercial use of microwaves that it could be harmful

[00:21:12] to humans that it has an impact on living creatures at some point in time in the

[00:21:19] evolution of this technology it has become weaponized now where that happened is a question

[00:21:28] of intent and that's something we don't know right I can take the stapler on my desk which is

[00:21:34] clearly intended to just staple pages together and hit you over the head and weaponize it that's not

[00:21:41] what the intent of the device was so at some point and all I can point to is at least post

[00:21:49] Havana when the story was public and it became known that people were physically suffering

[00:21:57] clearly any further use of the device whatever it might be by whomever is doing it

[00:22:04] they would know it's got this harmful effect and they are weaponizing now whether it's a dual

[00:22:09] purpose that they're still extracting data from the person's cell phone or or they intend to hurt

[00:22:16] the person right who knows when we get a defector when we grab some more documents I'm sure at

[00:22:22] some point in time we will learn but you know there were public congressional hearings in the

[00:22:28] late 70s about the Moscow signal and at one point secretary I think he was either the secretary of state

[00:22:35] or the national security advisor Henry Kissinger went over to the Soviet Union and told his counterpart

[00:22:41] cut it out because they believe the U.S. that the ambassador to the Soviet Union

[00:22:48] had died because of the microwaves you know that it had contributed to

[00:22:53] leukemia or cancer that that he had developed and that that's in the 1970s yeah wow I've heard

[00:23:00] it's become reasonably common that members of U.S. staff who have worked in Moscow have

[00:23:05] suffered some sort of symptoms after working in the embassy I don't know if it's necessarily

[00:23:10] cancerous but something because of the microwaves projected at the embassy

[00:23:14] there have been and this has not been really publicly reported because it's anecdotal but it's

[00:23:21] so for me let's say it's I guess it's probably third hand by this time where a number of the

[00:23:28] CIA officials who have served in Moscow in the last decade either they or their spouses have

[00:23:35] developed rare well cancer and that could be completely coincidental right I don't know

[00:23:44] my what I've continually said especially because the congressional hearing back in the 70s one of

[00:23:51] the questions they asked of the U.S. government the members of Congress was are there long-term

[00:23:56] health effects and the response was we don't know not enough time has passed well that was like

[00:24:01] 1979 enough time has passed how about checking to see senior state department senior CIA staff who

[00:24:10] served in Moscow in the 60s and 70s wouldn't be hard to figure out who it was are they still alive

[00:24:16] I'm sure quite a number of them have died just by the passage of time what did they die of is there

[00:24:21] an increased amount you know proportional percentage wise of Parkinson's leukemia breast cancer

[00:24:30] whatever it might be I've heard again anecdotal that there is a Parkinson's working group a support

[00:24:39] group inside the CIA doesn't surprise me that that would exist but I'm told it's a very large group

[00:24:48] like a group that is statistically significantly larger than what would be present in the general

[00:24:55] public environment wow is there a reason for that right I mean these are very basic questions that I

[00:25:01] think could go to answer and and maybe refute you know some of what we're saying by way of claims

[00:25:08] but the fact that the U.S. government is not to my knowledge undertaking these studies these

[00:25:15] examinations is part of why I say there was or is a cover up well let's take a quick break

[00:25:22] and then we'll be right back

[00:25:42] well there are some people who have been saying that these AHI symptoms could be psychosomatic

[00:25:49] so with what you've seen what would you say to that I would say these people are literally

[00:25:53] delusional naive or have an agenda because it's it's absolutely ridiculous now I cannot

[00:26:03] and I would not say that there is not an impact of psychosomatic thinking on people

[00:26:13] we see it in everything yeah the extent of it to explain it is where I say this is just

[00:26:20] absolutely ludicrous to think for one thing we've had countless people report these incidents

[00:26:29] completely independent from one another they had no knowledge whatsoever that this was going on

[00:26:35] anywhere else in the world or even where they were locally we've also had numerous

[00:26:42] minor children including infants who have experienced the same type of symptoms I mean

[00:26:49] they they're not subject to whatever the adults in the room are talking about or even pets

[00:26:56] which develop tumors and seizures all of a sudden now do animals get that yeah of course they do

[00:27:04] how often is it that it's the owner or they're the they're the pet of an owner who also suffered

[00:27:10] in a hi situation I mean it it just to me is for folks to just do a complete head in the sand

[00:27:20] that this explains everything you know like I've represented people who were the victims of

[00:27:24] Gulf War syndrome from the first Gulf War who had side effects of the anthrax vaccine

[00:27:30] and you know we do know that there is some psychological impact on on on individuals you

[00:27:39] know stress really does create a problem and we've all gone through that and I I do not doubt that

[00:27:46] some of even my clients who believe they've suffered multiple incidents that I don't think

[00:27:52] it's a new incident I think it is their body reacting to whatever's going on it's a real

[00:27:59] but it seems like a new incident you know it's sort of like developing shingles you know once

[00:28:03] you had chicken pox decades earlier you know it's been in your system the entire time for all the

[00:28:09] decades something triggered it yeah yeah thank you for that and obviously painting a quite a

[00:28:16] horrible picture for the victims really having to sort of live with that and the psychological

[00:28:20] effects of that what I would love to ask you about you've sort of touched upon it but

[00:28:23] why do you think the US government is playing this down or even trying to cover up Havana

[00:28:27] syndrome yeah so you know let me start with one thing that didn't mean much to me at the time

[00:28:34] but in October of 2014 again two years before Havana occurred the NSA gave me a memo and it was

[00:28:44] to help me with my representation of Michael Beck my original AHI client because we needed to show

[00:28:52] to the US Department of Labor that there was a correlation between the work injury one that it

[00:28:59] was a work injury which eventually NSA agreed and then two that there was a correlation between

[00:29:06] his development of a rare form of Parkinson's and the directed energy that we believe had

[00:29:12] impacted him decades earlier and they gave me an unclassified memo and it's just

[00:29:19] a few sentences long so let me just read it the NSA confirms that there is intelligence information

[00:29:25] from 2012 associating the hostile country to which mr. Beck traveled in the late 1990s with a high

[00:29:32] powered microwave system weapon that may have the ability to weaken intimidate or kill an

[00:29:39] enemy over time and without leaving evidence the 2012 intelligence information indicated that

[00:29:46] this weapon is designed to bathe the target's living quarters and microwaves causing numerous

[00:29:52] physical effects including a damaged nervous system the NSA has no evidence that such a weapon

[00:29:58] if it existed lawyers wrote this by the way and if it was associated with the hostile country in

[00:30:03] the late 1990s was or was not used against mr. Beck now when i got that it sort of blew my

[00:30:09] mind at the time and i also went well that doesn't help me in the slightest but wow i can't

[00:30:14] believe you're giving me this this is pretty pretty wild what does that actually mean uh and

[00:30:22] it means a lot more now obviously since we've got all of these now reported cases so why

[00:30:32] would the u.s government be covering this up and i don't say that lightly that i believe without

[00:30:39] a doubt that the u.s government is covering this up and lying repeatedly publicly i have handled

[00:30:46] a number of conspiracy cases over the years right i rattled off a couple of them you know

[00:30:52] princess diana's death who killed princess diana was she murdered right i have worked these cases

[00:30:57] exhaustively usually to debunk conspiracy theories to come up with the plausible

[00:31:04] occum's razor explanations the reason for why and it's going to be one or more

[00:31:12] of certain scenarios what could it be well for one if what we are saying is true the russians

[00:31:20] and maybe others have violated the age old norm of you do not harm fellow intelligence officers

[00:31:29] certainly not diplomatic staff certainly not their families that they've crossed that line to do this

[00:31:36] for whatever reason not only around the world on foreign soil but on our own soil that's an act

[00:31:46] of war and what would the reaction be what should it be from the united states government it's a

[00:31:53] scary thought as to what if in fact they have injured dozens hundreds maybe more of us personnel

[00:32:01] some of whom may not even know about it because maybe it was low level microwaves that gave them

[00:32:06] cancer 25 years later right they wouldn't they wouldn't know to tie it together uh that's

[00:32:13] one reason that's a scary reason i do believe like we've discussed that the u.s government

[00:32:18] is known about this for a lot longer than it is said and that nsa memo is one of the reasons to

[00:32:25] even show the Moscow signal things like that so this has been another cover-up from the American

[00:32:31] public not just the american public a cover-up from our diplomatic personnel who haven't been told

[00:32:40] until recently that this is a risk and so hey you know if you're going to be assigned to go to

[00:32:47] Afghanistan or iraq you're not going to bring your family members with you because it's a dangerous

[00:32:53] post but if you're going to go to vienna and frankfort are you kidding me that's a beautiful post

[00:33:01] you're going to or london i mean there are incidents very not very well known that we

[00:33:06] suspect in london you know you're bringing your family with them and none of these people were

[00:33:12] warned beforehand there are a lot of people inside especially the intelligence community

[00:33:17] who are pissed off about that fact that they weren't given any training or indications to

[00:33:26] be on the lookout for certain types of behavior up beyond you know oh i can see someone's

[00:33:32] telling me uh you know i can i can see someone came into my apartment you know the games

[00:33:37] that spy agencies play all the time and every day there's also a very big financial component to it

[00:33:45] you know all these hundreds and maybe thousands of people who might have been injured by use of

[00:33:52] this technology by the enemy who now have medical conditions that the u.s government needs to take

[00:33:57] care of so what's the liability for the united states there's also a scary notion of you know

[00:34:03] what we can't defend our people what are we supposed to do we're going to give everyone some sort of

[00:34:11] surveillance detection device for microwaves they do exist uh but i mean that's not going to work first

[00:34:17] of all that's an expense second of all that's that's sort of a discomfort and an inconvenience

[00:34:24] and also you can't put it on our spies because that's going to be a giveaway if they get caught

[00:34:29] oh look you've got a microwave detection device on you because you're a spy right so that's not

[00:34:34] going to work and what are you going to do you're going to set it up in every family member's home

[00:34:39] wherever they are around the world it's just it's not feasible uh so that is also another factor

[00:34:47] with it i mean you know ironically that where i think this needs to go ultimately is i think we

[00:34:54] need to literally go to the united nations and and get a treaty about the use of energy against

[00:35:02] human beings in the same way we have for nuclear weapons chemical and biological weapons now it

[00:35:08] which doesn't mean they're that there can't be obviously uh benign positive use like nuclear

[00:35:16] right clearly we have we have great uses of of nuclear energy and we also have very horrific

[00:35:22] uses of it the horrific ones are banned the beneficial ones are are are are are set up in a way

[00:35:31] that they are i can't think of what word i want but you know monitored and and and and you know

[00:35:37] certain limitations parameters for use and things like that i think that's what we're

[00:35:42] going to need for this type of energy whatever this is microwaves rf whatever yeah yeah makes

[00:35:47] a lot of sense how is um this issue being received on both sides of political spectrum in the us and

[00:35:53] are there any politicians who are offering support for you or your clients yes so it is not in our

[00:36:01] view a partisan issue it is not a republican or democratic issue again because it's historical

[00:36:09] it is crossed the lines of every political administration going back i think to the

[00:36:16] nixon administration in the 60s so we've got republicans and democrats and it is really a cia

[00:36:24] issue more than a white house issue the cia is really controlling what is known or not known

[00:36:31] about this information that in fact we know of many examples where the cia is withholding

[00:36:37] information intelligence classified information from its sister intelligence agencies and we

[00:36:44] know that because the sister agencies tell us we know when we make it known to them of

[00:36:49] certain information it's like hey by the way my client has seen this document have you

[00:36:55] know what do you mean we've never seen that document how would we not have seen that document

[00:37:00] go ask your cia i mean it happens very often it's very disingenuous now there have been

[00:37:08] some politicians who have made it political we are seeing that a little bit more lately

[00:37:15] because of the fact that this is russia in our sights so quite frankly the maga crowd

[00:37:24] the make america great crowd is seizing on that to say oh all we're doing is trying to attack

[00:37:29] trump russia russia russia as jan brady said on the brady bunch but no it yeah it is russia

[00:37:37] it has nothing to do with trump we've never made it about trump we're not going to make it about

[00:37:42] trump the trump administration was at fault just like the biden administration and the obama

[00:37:47] administration and the bush administration most of these are a great number of these incidents

[00:37:54] actually have taken place on the biden administrations watch both biden both obama

[00:37:59] trump and biden uh so i mean crosses the threshold and uh senator ron johnson of wisconsin republican

[00:38:08] senator he actually believes that he's been hit with with an ahi marco rubio republican has been

[00:38:14] very outspoken about this although he's been more aligned towards the cuban angle of it

[00:38:22] but then senator warner from virginia where the cia is located has been a little bit more

[00:38:28] hesitant uh to go after this uh mike turner on the house select committee on intelligence republican

[00:38:34] chair has been very outspoken they have an active investigation formal investigation so we're doing

[00:38:41] our best not to make this political and and hopefully uh most people will stay away from that

[00:38:47] but but there are aspects of it where people who have agendas that are contrary to what we're

[00:38:53] trying to achieve have been trying to make it as to look as such but it's not yeah yeah sadly inevitable

[00:39:00] especially in today's political climate but yes but there we go um so what is the goal for your

[00:39:05] clients is it compensation or health care or what would you like to sort of see for your clients

[00:39:11] so i have always told my clients and i've said this publicly that from the get go when i started

[00:39:18] on this case 10 12 years ago i have five primary objectives and quite frankly it hasn't changed the first

[00:39:25] was always to make sure that my client receives proper and timely medical care that's that is the

[00:39:32] the you know at the forefront of what we need to secure for these victims the second is

[00:39:38] that we make sure the u.s government pays for this medical care because a lot of them

[00:39:42] are having to go out of pocket to private health care particularly because they didn't

[00:39:46] realize what had happened at the time or the u.s government has taken too long to provide them

[00:39:51] treatment or the u.s government is not giving them sufficient treatment the third aspect depends on

[00:39:57] the client is to make sure this doesn't impact unfairly their uh their job uh and that could

[00:40:07] depend on for example if they're suffering significantly some sort of medical de-habilitating

[00:40:13] condition and they can't perform their work i can't do anything about that we'll need to get them some

[00:40:17] sort of medical disability or reasonable accommodation under the law but if they're being stigmatized

[00:40:24] for being an a hi victim then that is something i can jump in on to try and ensure the a hi

[00:40:36] component of their situation doesn't negatively impact their career the fourth objective is the

[00:40:42] catch all sort of kitchen sink i i deal with congress i deal with the media i do podcasts like this

[00:40:48] we promote what the story is we spread the news to get people interested the 60 minutes piece

[00:40:53] obviously congressional investigations i do a lot of freedom of information act foya litigation

[00:41:00] to get documents out from the u.s government so we can get more evidence everything that would

[00:41:08] push forward and it and advance what we're trying to accomplish when i first started the fifth and

[00:41:15] final objective was so far off that i wasn't even paying attention to it and that is the

[00:41:22] compensation component because there wasn't anything really to do there was no lawsuit

[00:41:28] to bring against the united states there's immunity issues there's civil service problems with respect

[00:41:36] to what the law is i didn't really have anything other than foya but that's just document collection

[00:41:43] and and i don't need the victims to do that i represent journalists to get the the foya lawsuits

[00:41:48] going and i didn't believe it was i still don't that it was cuba i could have sued cuba for it

[00:41:56] cuba does not have sovereign immunity in the united states actually because of legislation i helped

[00:42:01] draft to go after libya for the bombing of pan m one and three to take sovereign immunity away

[00:42:08] from terrorist states but russia has immunity like every other country in the world in the united

[00:42:15] states except for domestic incidents there are exceptions for that but i do not have while i

[00:42:24] could bring the case i do not have in my view sufficient proof yet to say russia did it so i'm

[00:42:32] not ready to bring that lawsuit ultimately congress passed the havanna compensation act now that does

[00:42:41] allow for compensation to ahi victims it is narrow it is being arbitrarily and inconsistently applied

[00:42:51] from agency to agency i it could have been written a lot better unfortunately we're still waiting for

[00:42:59] the defense department and the justice department to actually even implement the dam act which is

[00:43:04] absolutely ridiculous but there is at least an angle for compensation i will say i've told

[00:43:11] clients this i was i've always been uncomfortable with the compensation angle because i represent

[00:43:16] so many military personnel who have been injured in the line of their their duty you know they've

[00:43:22] suffered injuries from an ied explosion in iraq or afghanistan they don't get compensation why

[00:43:27] don't they get compensation uh you know sure they get medical care through the veteran affair

[00:43:32] system for the rest of their life but takes a long time to get an appointment it's it's

[00:43:37] it's i mean it's not the best system in the world at all uh but they don't get any

[00:43:42] medical you don't get any monetary compensation so i had a moral issue with it but hey the congress

[00:43:50] in their infinite wisdom passed the legislation so i'm going to take advantage of it for my clients

[00:43:55] and we've been getting some of the client's compensation in the realm of about 150 000

[00:44:02] and some of them have been denied and we're going to look into some litigation to challenge

[00:44:06] that denial for it but ultimately there's going to need to be more compensation particularly with

[00:44:12] respect to cover medical care there there's a gap without a doubt and and so there's gonna need

[00:44:21] to be more money created maybe in the way of like a 9-11 compensation fund that was created or

[00:44:30] an agent orange fund something like that yeah and unfortunately healthcare is not cheap in America

[00:44:37] no no not at all and and while the military the defense department of course has experts about

[00:44:45] traumatic brain injuries which a lot of these ai victims suffer it's a type of traumatic brain

[00:44:50] injury that they're not really used to seeing you know they're used to seeing an ied go off

[00:44:57] and knowing what a shockwave is going to do and while there are obviously similarities especially

[00:45:04] for the treatment there's a lot we don't know about brain injuries just overall so you know we

[00:45:12] can't detect it oftentimes so that's that's one of the problems of course in this case is

[00:45:18] there's no real tests you can do like a covid test to see do you have covid or do you have

[00:45:24] the flu you know there's no ai test there are certain things that we can look at the doctors

[00:45:30] can look at and if you get to the person early enough so there was an a national institute of

[00:45:36] health study that came out recently in the journal of american medical association jama

[00:45:42] that said hey we looked at 80 or so ai victims and we looked at all these uh non ai victims

[00:45:50] and we couldn't discern any significant difference between their brain scans well yeah i could have

[00:45:56] told you that going into the testing and and what's disingenuous about it doctors who are on the

[00:46:03] study is that you knew this too because you at least two of the doctors were involved in treating

[00:46:11] ai victims and diagnosing them with traumatic brain injuries because they know or knew that

[00:46:19] or should have known uh some legal terminology there that if you don't get to these victims within a

[00:46:26] short period of time the whatever is visible on their brain scans dissipates and it doesn't mean

[00:46:34] the injury is gone but the the physical ability to see it dissipates and and you don't see it

[00:46:41] anymore uh and they know that and i am told since so many of my clients were in this study

[00:46:47] that there are a number of people that people were in meetings i i've talked to people who were

[00:46:53] in meetings who were shown brain scans of victims who were examined in within days of their attack

[00:47:02] and you see it in their scan like holy cow this person their world has been literally rocked

[00:47:10] by something yeah but you don't see that in the article no no no well thank you very much

[00:47:16] for that is there anything else you'd like to add before we wrap up today you know this is a

[00:47:22] there is a case that is it's still in its infancy i have told all of my clients whenever they first

[00:47:30] come to me that this is going to be a long term project and we're gonna have a lot of

[00:47:35] hills and valleys ups and downs right now we are in a great momentum probably the the strongest

[00:47:43] and the best that i have seen in the dozen or years that i have worked on this case because now we've

[00:47:49] got actual evidence linking russia uh to these incidents and evidence that we know the u.s.

[00:47:59] government either can develop on its own should have developed on its own has developed on its own

[00:48:05] and ultimately we're going to break through that classification wall i will say the one

[00:48:10] question that has always perplexed me is if this is being done to us why isn't it being

[00:48:17] done to our allies especially the five eyes right the brits the australians i've heard rumors

[00:48:23] anecdotal evidence of incidents against americans in australia in london but not of

[00:48:32] to brits to australians to germans to french uh i'm curious about that now the systems are

[00:48:40] different obviously right in england you got the official secrets act it's a lot more consequences

[00:48:45] for people to come forward uh obviously the other commonwealth countries similar uh i don't know

[00:48:51] about with french with france or germany but i that does raise a question to me i have seen some of

[00:48:59] the naysayers say well if russia has this why haven't they used it on the battlefield

[00:49:05] in ukraine well that would kind of defeat the entire purpose of using it as a spy device wouldn't it

[00:49:11] if all of a sudden 2000 ukrainian soldiers fall down victimized by microwaves uh sort of like in

[00:49:18] the same notion of when first president bush told sedam hussein you better not use anthrax or any

[00:49:26] biological chemical weapons because we're going to know ultimately eventually and we're going to

[00:49:30] retaliate uh so you know we'll we'll see how this develops i think that's a a deflecting

[00:49:37] theory to say oh why isn't it being used here there i think there are at least good faith

[00:49:42] reasonable explanations but we we are still at the beginning of this story even though

[00:49:48] this story has many chapters that have already been written and its podcasts like this to

[00:49:54] keep this conversation going so that we can gain and gather additional evidence uh and ultimately

[00:50:03] and unfortunately i think quite a number of us senior government officials are going to find

[00:50:08] themselves having been on the wrong side of history and and they're gonna really have egg on their

[00:50:15] face and it's going to be self-inflicted is there anything listeners can do to help you or

[00:50:20] clients in any way you know it's always tough uh you know for those who are

[00:50:25] certain who are in the united states to uh make mention to their members of congress

[00:50:31] to ask their members of congress what their view is on this are they taking any steps

[00:50:36] to gain um to to push forward to gain access to information you know around the world even

[00:50:43] to just to talk to journalists in in all the other countries to to look at i'm gonna be doing

[00:50:50] all some australian news some german news uh i mean there is interest around the world because

[00:50:55] quite frankly the technology even though maybe it hasn't been used against others we don't know

[00:51:01] like i said but it can be the technology is there and i'm sure all of our countries have it

[00:51:08] both offensive and defensive the question is is it being used but this is uh probably going to be

[00:51:16] increasingly cheaper technology more sophisticated as technology evolves it is as that nsa memo that i

[00:51:24] read right now undetectable unless it's on right it doesn't it doesn't leave a trace or a path

[00:51:34] that i'm aware of in its wake that you can you know take like a geiger detector and go oh you know

[00:51:40] there was your uranium here oh there were radio frequencies i mean there's radio frequencies

[00:51:45] all around us right in what we're doing right now obviously uh so all all of that is is going

[00:51:52] to be really problematic but you know i think it's ask questions ask questions of what we call

[00:51:59] the fourth estate in the media but ask questions of your government wherever you might be

[00:52:03] you know what is this technology does it exist is it being used are we using it is it being used

[00:52:10] against us well the the technology sounds deeply disturbing and as you're saying it is going to

[00:52:17] probably progress and become smaller so i think your idea of going to the un is probably the

[00:52:22] answer for all of this isn't it i don't see how else it it could be addressed because it really

[00:52:27] isn't just going to be an american issue i mean here it is if we were attacked in vienna and frankfurt

[00:52:36] all right well that's on german soil uh it shouldn't be allowed in that capacity even if it wasn't

[00:52:42] used against germans uh you know same way or the russian attacks it on british soil

[00:52:49] of its dissidents with the plutonium uh you know clearly in violation of not only

[00:52:54] british domestic law but international law i mean there needs to be consequences for that the only

[00:52:59] way that's going to happen is most likely from an international convention mark where can this

[00:53:04] is find out more about you and your work well either through my out of date website markzade.com

[00:53:12] or more likely if you just go and look up on twitter where i'm at mark s zade zaid zaid esq mark

[00:53:25] s zade esq excellent well thank you very much for your time and for joining me today it was a really

[00:53:31] interesting conversation i think we had my pleasure

[00:53:42] so

[00:54:00] thanks for listening this is secrets and spies

[00:54:11] so