Extra Shot Teaser: Privacy vs. national security, threats to democracy, Ukraine aid, and the state of the Royal Navy

[00:00:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Due to the themes of this podcast, listener discretion is advised.

[00:00:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Lock your doors. Close the blinds. Change your passwords.

[00:00:11] [SPEAKER_00]: This is Secrets and Spies.

[00:00:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Secrets and Spies is a podcast that dives into the world of espionage, terrorism, geopolitics, and intrigue.

[00:00:33] [SPEAKER_00]: This episode is presented by Matt Fulton and produced by Chris Carr.

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Hey everyone and welcome back to Secrets and Spies. It's Matt here.

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Chris and I are taking a little late summer break, so in lieu of a new interview or espresso martini,

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_03]: we thought we'd give you a look at an Extra Shot episode, which is our bonus show for Patreon subscribers.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Essentially an extra hour of the conversation we have every other week on espresso martini.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_03]: If you're not already a Patreon subscriber but would perhaps like to become one, it's super easy.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Just go to patreon.com forward slash secrets and spies.

[00:01:05] [SPEAKER_03]: Membership starts as low as $4 a month and helps us cover some of the bills associated with running the podcast.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And so of course your generosity is much appreciated.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Before we get started though, I wanted to quickly mention the listener survey we're currently running.

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_03]: It's pretty short, just 10 questions. Your responses are anonymous.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_03]: So please be as honest as you'd like. We can take it, I promise.

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_03]: We're just looking to better understand what you enjoy about the podcast and most importantly how we can improve our content that we produced for you.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Links to that survey, our Patreon, and all the articles discussed in this episode are in the show notes.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_03]: With that, I'll hand the mic over to Chris and Matt of The Recent Past.

[00:01:42] [SPEAKER_03]: We'll be back with a new espresso martini, the first of season nine on September 14th.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_03]: There may be another interview that I have out before that, but if not, definitely look for us on the 14th with a new espresso martini.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much for listening and for all your support. It really does mean the world to us.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello everybody and welcome to Extra Shot. If you're listening to this, you're directly supporting the show.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much for doing that. Matt, how are you?

[00:02:34] [SPEAKER_03]: I am good. I'm good. Hello dear friends and supporters listening.

[00:02:38] [SPEAKER_03]: We just had a pretty good conversation in the break and kind of just blame we didn't record it.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It's always the way the other two shots.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_01]: The extra extra shot.

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah. I'll be on the new top secret level.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. We don't actually, that's one that like we don't actually release the recording.

[00:02:54] [SPEAKER_03]: We just like print out copies of the transcript and just mail it to certain people.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you know, I'm just totally random thought that just popped into my head.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Just about weird layers of membership. So, you know, the British Film Institute, right?

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_01]: I used to be a member of British Film Institute just to go and see movies.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And allegedly one of the perks is you get to get tickets early before other people.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But what I didn't know that there was a whole unspoken about membership level that doesn't exist in the public domain

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_01]: that requires you to be a true industry professional and pay a lot of money per year to really get true access to those tickets.

[00:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I was always finding why are all these tickets sold out that I'm supposed to be getting exclusive access to?

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really annoying during like the BFI Film Festival when there's like really cool people like Michael Mann or whatever speaking you want to go and see him.

[00:03:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And they're always sold out. And it was so annoying.

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I discovered that there's this extra tier that only a few people know about.

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought I was so fucking British.

[00:03:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Whose casting couch do you have to go take a seat on to get access to that?

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, how bad do you want those tickets?

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I think ultimately I've got to win a BAFTA and ask.

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Or have a very, very big wallet.

[00:04:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So all of those things are not quite in reach just yet. But, you know, give it a bit of time.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_01]: A BAFTA is not impossible.

[00:04:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Go polish that script a bit more after we get done here.

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, a film I produced many, many, many years ago, the writer of that film got nominated for a Scottish BAFTA.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So I got close. I got close.

[00:04:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, I've been in those sort of circles.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's possible to swim in them again.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So there we go, people.

[00:04:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So there's a top secret tier that even we don't know about that on Extra Shot there.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So, Matt, our first story is one you picked to think about.

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_01]: It was about privacy not being an absolute in the age of AI.

[00:04:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'll let you take the reins on that one.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. So this one's about, it's from The Guardian, but it says how Mike Burgess, who's the director general of ASIO,

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_03]: the Australian Security Intelligence Organization, and the Australian Federal Police Commissioner, Reese Kershaw,

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_03]: emphasized the importance of social media companies in combating extremism and aiding law enforcement.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_03]: So in a joint speech to the National Press Club, Burgess argued that privacy is not absolute,

[00:05:19] [SPEAKER_03]: urging tech companies to provide more assistance to law enforcement,

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_03]: especially in cases involving potential crimes on encrypted platforms.

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Burgess called for tech companies to make encryption accountable and suggested that existing laws are not being followed.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_03]: ASIO is currently investigating Australians involved in racist extremist groups,

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_03]: using encrypted platforms to communicate with extremists abroad, which hampers investigation efforts.

[00:05:44] [SPEAKER_03]: ASIO recently warned of an increase in activity from violent extreme right hate groups aiming to incite a race war.

[00:05:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Burgess stressed that he is not asking for new laws or resources,

[00:05:53] [SPEAKER_03]: but urging tech companies to uphold existing laws and assist in limited circumstances.

[00:05:59] [SPEAKER_03]: Kershaw emphasized the importance of balancing privacy rights with a need to combat online crime, particularly protecting children.

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Kershaw invited tech CEOs like Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg to collaborate with law enforcement.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Burgess also expressed concerns about the role of artificial intelligence in facilitating extremism and other online threats, including espionage and disinformation.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Chris, I'm curious about your thoughts on this one because I'm not quite sure how I come down, but I'll let you go first.

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I suppose most of my thoughts came more about the whole privacy angle.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So I've always felt that there is a case for law enforcement to be able to get access to digital data.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously they need to have a warrant that can prove their requirements fit within the bounds of the law,

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_01]: especially in terrorism cases that could lead to a loss of life.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And certainly obviously foreign intelligence services have developed ways to circumvent encryption

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and at times are in a position to violate existing laws in acts of espionage and counter-terrorism.

[00:07:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously in the US you've got your FISA laws that protect US citizens from the powers of the US intelligence services.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And in the UK we have a similar thing called the RIPA Act that I've been told is not quite as good as FISA,

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_01]: but I'm not clear on the specifics of why RIPA is not quite as strict as the FISA system.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_01]: But in the UK, if law enforcement or the intelligence services want to intercept your digital communications,

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: they need to get a warrant signed off by the Home Secretary or the Cabinet Secretary for Justice.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Now I know the tech sector, which is typically run by sort of libertarian leaning free speech,

[00:07:42] [SPEAKER_01]: digital privacy absolutists have in the past had an antagonistic relationship with law enforcement.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think in private, certainly from things I've heard about,

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_01]: those companies are a lot more cooperative than we realize with law enforcement,

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_01]: as long as there are proper warrants in place.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the real tension can come down to the time it takes to get information,

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: because obviously each company has its own way.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: There's not like a universal way to approach Facebook and Apple to get an application.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to kind of go through their process to do it.

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I think that's where a lot of tensions do come into play.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And also there are companies like Apple who claim they cannot break their own encryption

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and that there are no back doors that can be exploited.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I personally don't believe that, but I can't prove that they do have that capacity.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But I have the feeling of if you invent something, because you've invented it, you know how to circumvent it.

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Now I could be completely wrong now. I'm not an overall techie person.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Certainly people from Apple when I've said this in the past have.

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I had a iPad that was owned by my late father that we don't have the password to.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And I've tried to get it unlocked and hadn't had any joy on that.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I even went to a private dodgy firm to see if they could do it and they couldn't do anything about it.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And Apple was saying, well, unfortunately, due to the encryption, we can't do anything about it.

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And I just I think I personally believe that's a marketing thing that came about post Snowden.

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Because since post Snowden over 10 years ago now, there was a lot of hysteria around this subject.

[00:09:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And many companies wanted to demonstrate that they're pro digital privacy.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And there was a period in like 2011 and 12 where there was a lot of hysteria around Snowden.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a lot of things that he said that turned out not to quite be the case.

[00:09:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It was kind of exaggerated.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And he kind of didn't really go into any great detail about the kind of the very strict FISA process that you have in the States that could change.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Because obviously it's linked in with the post 9-11 security laws that are up for renewal, aren't they?

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And I've completely is it the Patriot Act? So the Patriot Act is up for renewal, isn't it?

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I assume. And there's a lot of um, an ah-ing about that because the Patriot Act.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_01]: That's always been a been a football.

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. People on the left hate it. People on the, shall we say libertarian right hate it.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And yet it actually ultimately does work and is probably the best system you'll ever get to finding that balance between privacy and genuine law enforcement concerns.

[00:10:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But obviously the US state does have the capability to completely circumvent all that stuff if you get rid of those laws.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And all it takes is, you know, God forbid, you know, if Donald Trump does go as fascist as some of his critics believe he will, you know,

[00:10:40] [SPEAKER_01]: it could give him or a president like him in the future an awful lot of power.

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And there was this sort of danger.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But here's the thing with computers, with digital technology, there's never ever really been a guarantee of privacy ever because it is designed to document everything, whether you like it or not.

[00:11:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is the ultimate thing that is a side effect.

[00:11:04] [SPEAKER_01]: This wonderful technology we have makes life easier.

[00:11:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's the one area that no one really completely considered other than to the extremes of books like 1984, etc.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But nobody had a sit down rational debate with society to say, are we happy with these things coming out that make our lives easier but potentially make it a lot easier for a police state to monitor you.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a really difficult thing.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think as long as there's a, in my mind, as long as there's a rational government who abide by the law, it's fine.

[00:11:36] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's when we get this unknown factor and we end up going down the road of the stars, etc.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_01]: It starts to get into territory that is scary and is very real if it wants to be.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, so I'm all over the place with it.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_01]: My area was sort of in that digital privacy area.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the idea of AI kind of creating terrorist propaganda and stuff is frightening.

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And also AI can completely break passwords or anything anybody can come up with.

[00:12:07] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, apparently even AI is clever enough to email people to get them to read the text off their phone they got from the, you know, the, what do you call that text thing?

[00:12:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's a fishing nightmare.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's all this stuff that you've got to be social engineering and stuff.

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously in time AI will have access to technology that can simulate people's voices.

[00:12:27] [SPEAKER_01]: You might suddenly get a phone call from your mum.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's already happened.

[00:12:31] [SPEAKER_03]: There's some people who have gotten scammed because they've gotten phone calls and it's a family, like a daughter or a close family member or something.

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, that's already happened.

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the only defense for that is all my family members one day need to have a meeting with no computers or anything around.

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So imagine how it's watching you.

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So make sure in a Faraday cage or whatever, or get rid of your technology.

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Just have a very private chat about, hey, let's all have a single word or phrase that we can use to validate ourselves.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So should there be an emergency?

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's always the scam artists using emergency because it circumvents your rational self.

[00:13:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So should there be an emergency and I call you up and say, Matt, I'm in Brazil and I've run out of money.

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And could you give me like, I don't know, 100 quid or whatever.

[00:13:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Give me a bank details.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Chris, why the fuck are you in Brazil?

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. Exactly.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_01]: The first question.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: But she's like sweating your ass off down there.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. So like we would need some sort of password if you see.

[00:13:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Chris, okay.

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Terrible.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_01]: You're in this situation.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Brazil.

[00:13:30] [SPEAKER_01]: What's the safety word?

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_01]: What's the password?

[00:13:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And so if I can't say it and you've never put it online anywhere, then you know it's a fake.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it would definitely be for us.

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It would be all like, oh, yeah, wait, can't be now.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_01]: We've said it, but yeah, be something spirally to definitely, you know, probably Russian related.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So so that's my ramble about all of that.

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's a very interesting article and does pose some very interesting philosophical questions that we all need to kind of ponder really as the world carries on.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm I think we're I've been torn on this, but I think we're I think we're essentially on on the same page here.

[00:14:09] [SPEAKER_03]: I've in recent years, I think grown stronger in my beliefs for the need for privacy to some extent, like a place where you can go, you know, in the digital world that you are alone either with someone else or with yourself.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I think that's just I think that's just very important, you know, and and a general distrust of governments having a means to access a person's

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_03]: communications, like in any circumstance whatsoever.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. That said, I mean, I also still believe that I think it's absolutely true that if you're a you know, you or I or

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_03]: 99.9% of the people listening to this right unless you are involved with a hostile foreign intelligence service or you are

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_03]: affiliated with a terrorist group or like a drug cartel or some sort of transnational criminal syndicate or you work for a

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Chinese or Russian defense or technology firm, you know, something like that, which again 99.9% of us that don't apply to right

[00:15:22] [SPEAKER_03]: the NSA, GCHQ, the FBI, you know, what have you, Oseo, they don't you're not important to them.

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_03]: They don't give a shit about you just to be frank, you know, like you're they have much bigger fristafry than you and the idea that like, you know,

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_03]: there's an FBI agent right now, like looking at me right through this webcam like that's preposterous.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, could they? Sure. Do they have time to do they care enough? No, they don't unless you're in tied with some stuff that you know,

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_03]: so that is all true. But at the same point, I'll make this point too. What you should be concerned about are the Amazons and the Googles

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_03]: and the medas of the world who actually are, you know, invading your privacy to the extent that you're worried about the NSA and the

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Chinese, various Chinese cyber campaigns that are building data sets on citizens of Western countries potentially down to the individual level

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_03]: so that they can feed you more effective AI generated disinformation designed to turn your brain to mush.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Like that's the stuff that you should be worried about not, you know, like the FBI is not looking at you through your webcam.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, the NSA does not care about you sexting your partner. You know, this just this is not right.

[00:16:46] [SPEAKER_03]: But at the same point, I think and maybe this is just from the political experience that we've had here in in the US over the last several years

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_03]: that's really kind of open my eyes in a way, you know, that like, again, not concerned about the FBI, the NSA and the way that it's it's constituted right now

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_03]: for those reasons that I explained. But, you know, while a government is just a body of people who are in the building at at any given time, right?

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Like they're not these eternal edifices, you know, they change.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_03]: So while one government can respect the rights of its citizens and have the best and the best of intentions in using these tools only against the quote unquote bad guys, right?

[00:17:33] [SPEAKER_03]: Governments also change sometimes drastically as as we have seen and could potentially see again.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_03]: And the definition of who are the bad guys to those governments can change with it, you know?

[00:17:48] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's something about that just gives me gives me pause about these issues, you know?

[00:17:56] [SPEAKER_03]: It's for the same reason that I'm I'm I'm working on an episode for that'll probably air next month where I want to I want to ask about this.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_03]: But it's the same reason that I have pause about, you know, more like enhanced domestic terrorism laws that would allow the FBI to combat

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_03]: domestic extremists, you know, racist groups, neo-Nazis and stuff here in the U.S., you know, those laws.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm in favor of going after those groups in a very aggressive way.

[00:18:26] [SPEAKER_03]: I think they're a cancer on this country and they have been since the 1860s and before and they should be eradicated in some way, shape or form.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. But those tools that would be needed for the FBI to combat those groups can very easily be used against people that I wouldn't I wouldn't want them to be used against if if if the people in the building running the FBI at the time happens to change.

[00:18:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And that is entirely possible.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, totally. Totally.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Law enforcement, etc. Not infallible.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, there's so many complicated factors to all that.

[00:19:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_01]: We do need a massive philosophical debate about it because ultimately there are groups that are hiding in that gray zone that are very dangerous that do need sorting out.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's just making sure we don't create a situation where once that particular threat is gone, we start going looking for new ones to justify the existence of said program, etc.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Sort of like, yeah. Right.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:19:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think there was a recent issue where it was a response to it.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_03]: The FBI had a terrorism suspects phone that they needed access to.

[00:19:44] [SPEAKER_03]: It was an iPhone.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.

[00:19:46] [SPEAKER_03]: And they asked Apple for a way to get into it.

[00:19:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And Apple was like, look, the way their encryption is set up, like that they don't have access to the to the keys that would be needed to decrypt this thing.

[00:19:57] [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's it's mathematically technically impossible for them to do so, whether that's true or not.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_03]: To your point earlier, it's a great advertising thing.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And I really this may be unfounded or or or mistaken of me, but I really trust Apple when it comes to privacy.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's why I use their stuff like every chance that I have.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, one I asked myself is when chatting of some of our spooky friends, what platforms technology they using?

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I can answer that.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I've mirrored some of them.

[00:20:27] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, it's a lot of it's a lot of signal.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_03]: It's I recently opened up a proton mail account just for this purpose.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Protons one I would avoid, actually, because remember Richard D. Love, et cetera.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And there was a big proton breach just about 18 months ago.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of people that I know all use proton mail in the servers or in Switzerland and stuff.

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Gmail, I think.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But no proton not anymore.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was it was one of these things that was built as that.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But since the Richard D. Love episode, it was one of these topics I think we never got around to talking about on the show.

[00:21:02] [SPEAKER_01]: But now I don't recall us talking about it.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_01]: No, Richard D. Love, the head of MI6.

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_01]: There was a big whole expose about how he and a group of Brexiteers were basically very pro Brexit and trying to subvert democracy.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And it all kind of came out in these proton mail emails.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_01]: It was all quite embarrassing stuff.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Also, a lot of these systems, you know, they're only as effective as if you're careful and practicing good digital hygiene in using it.

[00:21:33] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, like if you have a proton mail account and you don't have two factor authentication turned on and your password is one, two, three, four.

[00:21:39] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's not going to do you much good.

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, there's also something that you mentioned the issue with your dad's iPad and how you can't get access to it.

[00:21:48] [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of these companies now I have this set up for my Google and Apple ID accounts.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_03]: You can set like a designated person that like in the event of your death and there's different procedures and stuff on how it's released.

[00:22:01] [SPEAKER_03]: I think in some cases it's after a certain period of time if your account isn't accessed.

[00:22:06] [SPEAKER_03]: But you can set a person that it'll like, yeah, OK, let's say if I don't access my Gmail account or my Apple ID for like three months or something.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think you can change it how quickly you want it.

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_03]: If I don't sign on to it or touch it at all because I'm dead right for three to six months right now.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_03]: It's my my mom will get a link to that.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_03]: That'll give her access to it.

[00:22:32] [SPEAKER_03]: I set that up so I would I would recommend everyone listening to that as well if they have an idea.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Definitely. I mean, especially regards my dad's iPad.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was I don't think there was anything really on it that we kind of seems quite good back of his photos and stuff.

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. I'm not personally convinced there's anything on it that's really going to be.

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know what's the you know, good for us from a sentimental point of view.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But but still, it's annoying that it's locked and my dad actually never used to use a password.

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_01]: He was always quite good at telling me what it was until I don't know if some reason he checked out.

[00:23:07] [SPEAKER_01]: He had a he actually had a identity fraud situation happened a few months before he died.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think he then went through a major privacy thing and then just didn't update me on what the password was.

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I think also like I don't know, like pictures I have or you know, stuff that that would that would comfort people, you know, that they may have for also like on a more practical level like the unfinished manuscripts of the novels and various projects and stuff.

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I have like do I want that stuff to just I mean, I'm not like a George Martin where like the the circumstance of who's going to finish this after you is a very real is a real thing.

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, but I'm not like that. But do I want all this my life's body of work?

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Do I want that forever trapped behind this impenetrable ball of ones and zeros?

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't think I do know, know sort of depressing thought.

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_03]: But it's a real thought is you know, it is it is very real.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_01]: One should take it seriously.

[00:24:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, yeah, just from personal experience, everybody, all family members should have a morbid conversation every few years just about these things because it is a very real thing that will come out of nowhere.

[00:24:19] [SPEAKER_03]: It's not something you just do idly for fun or, you know, it's not supposed to be.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, yeah, it's not a it's not a feel good conversation.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_03]: You don't you don't dwell on it or whatever.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_03]: But I think if you just approach it matter of fact kind of thing, you know, like we're all going to die someday.

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes it's more planned.

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Sometimes it's not, you know, and what do you what do you do in that circumstance?

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, like we a lot of people have wills.

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_03]: You look at it the same way.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what's going to happen to your to your digital to your digital after life footprint.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Your digital legacy.

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: No, right.

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a legacy.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, I think no, it was a good piece that Matt and I think you know, I think what you were saying about the companies and stuff.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_01]: That was one thing that was always missing from the Snowden debate that really annoyed me.

[00:25:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I remember Bob Sesker, who was very critical of the Snowden coverage, made a big point talking about the companies because effectively governments and government agencies are filled with elective representatives,

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_01]: whilst private organizations are not.

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And people forget that and they will do give far more information every day to Facebook, Amazon, etc.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_01]: To the FAANG companies, I think there's FAANG.

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I like that.

[00:25:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Is it Facebook, Apple, Netflix, Google?

[00:25:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I think FAANG.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_03]: That's a good I've never heard that acronym before.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_03]: That's really interesting.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, you know, I like that.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It's always been my favorite.

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, so we give an awful lot away to our FAANG service providers whilst we bang on about the NSA spying on us.

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just like I think people need to kind of recalibrate a little bit, but not to dismiss these things.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Gosh, we were talking about digital tracking and watches and I've got an Apple Watch, which I'd use for my fitness and stuff.

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously lots of members of various special forces have various devices to track their fitness that have been exploited.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_01]: There's all sorts of technology we wear for convenience and for all sorts of innocent reasons that can be totally exploited.

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So you've got to be careful.

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, there's a thing on the wall right behind me now that I won't say her name because she will activate if I, you know,

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So she who will not be named that I don't actively think I'm being spied upon, but you know it's in my mind and it gives me pause.

[00:26:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And if you know, if in the next iOS update, you know, Apple really improves their AI services behind Siri or something, you know,

[00:26:54] [SPEAKER_03]: that it's much better than what she's got going on.

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_03]: I will gladly throw her out and depend more on Apple because I just trust them more than I trust the asshole that runs that company.

[00:27:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah. Well, do you know what? That is the one bit of technology that I flatly refuse to have an ARF flat and my wife's on the same page with me.

[00:27:13] [SPEAKER_01]: You have a point.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I just don't want it. Don't want that stuff. And also smart fridges. I don't know if you know that somebody could hack that and set your house on fire with a smart fridge.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's like why do you need, well it's like the nanny cams and stuff or like the digital picture frames that we were talking, the last one, or a smart fridge.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Like why do I need my fridge connected to Wi-Fi?

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I just don't.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know. I mean, obviously being ultra paranoid with that, but it is a real thing.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I remember took the Vince Houghton about that a few years back.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: He was saying that, yeah, that one of, we haven't had it yet, but he said that smart technology one day will be used to kill someone.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It'll be sort of like a fridge being hacked to overheat.

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It may have been already.

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_01]: We just don't know.

[00:27:51] [SPEAKER_03]: We may have done it.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_01]: No, somebody may have done it.

[00:27:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh dear.

[00:27:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, actually, yeah, wasn't it the way they got, and why Al Alaki involved the fridge, if I remember Morton Storm's book correctly.

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_01]: But it wasn't, the fridge itself, I think had tracking technology.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think the fridge itself was designed to explode.

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_03]: There was a big leak of, I think it was in Vault 7, I think is what it was called, but it was a big leak of a bunch of the CIA's offensive cyber weapons.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And I know one of them was to exploit cameras that were built into smart TV systems.

[00:28:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yes.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I've heard about that.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Makes sense.

[00:28:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Makes sense.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Cool.

[00:28:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So anything else you want to add?

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Or are you happy?

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Cool.

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, let's, we'll move into the plot to discredit democracy.

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_01]: This is by Tom Nichols in The Atlantic.

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And Tom Nichols wrote a really good book called The Death of Expertise.

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think he's got a new one coming out soon about this topic.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I will have to double check.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm actually, between us, I'm trying to get Anne Applebaum on the show at the moment.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, nice.

[00:28:54] [SPEAKER_01]: See what happens with that.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm in email exchanges for people to try and make that happen.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Because she's got a book coming out later this year.

[00:29:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So it might be either about the book or it might be about an article she recently published.

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, in Tom Nichols' piece he discusses how the work of Anne Applebaum highlights the intensifying propaganda efforts by autocratic regimes.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Our favorite.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_01]: China, Russia.

[00:29:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Targeting audiences worldwide.

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_01]: We need to have an autocratic regime bell or something, don't we?

[00:29:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I've got, what have I got?

[00:29:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I used to have a, oh, I was too far away.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I've got a bell I could ring.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Need a little jingle for autocratic regimes.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, so where are we?

[00:29:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, they're targeting audiences worldwide.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_01]: These campaigns extend to regions often overlooked by Americans, including Africa, where students were found parroting Russian narratives of the war in Ukraine.

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And these sophisticate, the sophistication of these efforts involve influencing both popular and elite audiences through a combination of overt and covert propaganda tactics.

[00:30:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, unlike in the Cold War era propaganda aimed at portraying autocratic regimes in a positive light, modern autocracy seek to undermine truth itself.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Rather than replacing truth with regime friendly lies, they flood the information space with constant blatant falsehoods.

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_01]: This tactic is known as the fire hose of falsehoods.

[00:30:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And it aims to sow confusion and nihilism, eroding citizens' ability to discern truth from lies and ultimately discouraging political participation and the support for democracy.

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Gosh, where have I felt that before?

[00:30:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And so he goes on to say that Anne's work highlights the infiltration of foreign propaganda to American society, primarily through the internet and social media platforms.

[00:30:47] [SPEAKER_01]: This propaganda aims to spread narratives undermining American democracy, elections and civilization, echoing authoritarian agendas from countries like Russia and China.

[00:30:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Tom's fears that American society's susceptibility to misinformation exacerbates the impact of foreign propaganda.

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_01]: American cultures where entertaining conspiracy theories finds traction, fueled by a lack of critical thinking and a readiness to embrace baseless claims.

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_01]: This vulnerability makes the US an easy target for outlandish propaganda.

[00:31:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Tom suggests that combating misinformation requires individual citizens to take action.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_01]: They should engage in challenging misinformation within their social circles, asking critical questions and offering factual corrections.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Good luck with that.

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_01]: While acknowledging the difficulty of this task, it is presented as a necessary step to spread to the spread of falsehoods and protect democratic societies.

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Now one thing I'll add to that just quickly.

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So I've over the years, obviously former conspiracy theorist here, when trying to challenge said, you know, former friends of mine who still are conspiracy theorists.

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_01]: What I have found in their debates is they pull up the most random stuff and really focus on it.

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So not long ago, I was in a conversation with someone about 9-11 because he heard about my this podcast.

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So what are your views? 9-11.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So I explained that, you know, I think 9-11 was Al Qaeda, etc.

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And then randomly he said, what about building seven?

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And I explained what I knew about building seven.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_01]: He said, well, then what about the dancing Israelis?

[00:32:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, fuck me.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Even I don't know much about the dancing Israelis.

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_01]: What the hell was that?

[00:32:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So I had to then after that conversation and actually fun enough on 9-11 that day.

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So the analogy I used with him in this situation was that well on 9-11, I was in central London and I ended up congregating by a window of I think it was an estate agent.

[00:32:47] [SPEAKER_01]: They had a big TV and you could see through it.

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And then myself and my friend, who was a Korean man, we stood there and then we were joined by an Israeli man.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And his Israeli man was shocked by what happened.

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_01]: But then he said something on the lines of I remember correctly that now maybe America will understand what we've been going through.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was his feeling.

[00:33:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So I said to my friend of a friend who's a conspiracy theorist, well, maybe the Israelis, the Israeli people in question in your scenario,

[00:33:16] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe they were cheering because they felt the same way as this man.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_01]: They felt that maybe this terrorist attack might make America kind of understand the terrorism that they face on a daily basis.

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, anyway, I did Google these cheering Israelis and it turned out they were removal men.

[00:33:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And I've actually forgotten why they were cheering, but they weren't cheering about 9-11.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_01]: But basically they got arrested because they looked foreign.

[00:33:40] [SPEAKER_01]: They got arrested because they look Middle Eastern.

[00:33:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And they ended up being arrested by the NYPD quite dramatically.

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And then obviously this Chinese whisper went around the world.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Now there's this conspiracy theory about dancing and cheering Israelis who basically were removal men, if I remember this correctly.

[00:34:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And so basically the moral of this story is every time you do try and counter somebody with facts,

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_01]: they will always find the most random effing thing that you probably don't know anything about to try and torpedo what you're doing.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's such a I don't know what to call that, but it's so annoying because it feels like you have to have pre read about 20 or 30 books and the whole back catalog of Henry Kissinger before we can get into a conversation.

[00:34:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Somebody like this to be an account of some of the random shite they come up with.

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, Matt, your thoughts on all this?

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Have you considered that the Israeli man that you spoke to on 9-11 just for some reason wasn't on the shadowy Jewish cabal's listserv that sent out like the memo and the talking points preparing them for 9-11 in advance?

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_03]: How do you know that?

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, yeah, it's been a grand Israeli plot that I'd end up starting this podcast.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_01]: That's that's what it was.

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, actually 9-11 was all about me and started this podcast.

[00:35:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I don't know.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_01]: There we go.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Do you think next time our contracts are up with the massage we could ask for a bit of a pay raise?

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_03]: That would be nice.

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I think I think we should explore that next time.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Definitely.

[00:35:17] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, you mentioned that it's a clip, right?

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_03]: That was taken out of context and used and spun by.

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think there's any footage.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's just this story of dancing Israelis.

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And I remember Alex Jones, he's banging on about it.

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_01]: I do not believe I could be wrong, but I do not believe there's actually a clip.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just a thing that people don't know.

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_03]: It reminds me of and you know, there are I'm going to preface this by saying that throughout the war in Gaza, you know,

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_03]: there's Hamas and a lot of Iranian groups have gotten extensive media training.

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_03]: And sure, there's there's there's trickery and deception going on for sure.

[00:35:58] [SPEAKER_03]: OK, I'm not saying that none of that isn't true.

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_01]: ISIS were really good at it.

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_01]: They had the whole media team.

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_03]: They were very good.

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm not saying that isn't happening to some extent.

[00:36:07] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a war.

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Of course, there are information operations going on by both sides during the war.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_03]: But a recent example of something like this that I've seen just in the in the past couple of days.

[00:36:20] [SPEAKER_03]: So there there's a Palestinian TV show that there's like behind the scenes clips of it.

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:36:28] [SPEAKER_03]: There's behind the scenes clips of like the making of this footage.

[00:36:32] [SPEAKER_03]: There's these Palestinian actors in a hospital room getting ready for a scene.

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_03]: You can see the camera there and they're like getting ready to roll on this take.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_01]: People make out that they're faking it all.

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of the more hardcore pro-Israeli people on the right there took clips of that.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think pretty shamelessly it's like obvious are throwing that out there.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, oh, these are crisis actors in Gaza and this is what it all is.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, which doesn't you know, the most famous footage of that is the body bag that moves.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And then there's another clip of a man in a body bag having a cigarette.

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's the footage I've seen that's been spread around.

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Right.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's obviously all connected to a fictional TV show that was made many years ago,

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_01]: but they're pretending it's fact and some sort of like behind the scenes of a propaganda effort.

[00:37:21] [SPEAKER_03]: So years from now, because of that when October when the war in Gaza is long since done,

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_03]: years from now someone will be talking about what about this?

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Like we have videos of the Palestinian crisis actors like getting ready to film this stuff.

[00:37:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I saw the video of it and person did see video of that.

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_03]: They're not lying, but that's not what they saw.

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_03]: It just seems like when it comes to these disinformation efforts, like destroying truth itself,

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, I use that in quotes as like the objective just seems like a new and dangerous angle that wasn't that wasn't there before.

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I'm sure it's happened to some extent during during the Cold War,

[00:38:03] [SPEAKER_03]: but it wasn't it definitely wasn't as as as viral, you know,

[00:38:08] [SPEAKER_03]: and you had to, you know, launder it through third world newspapers and stuff.

[00:38:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And then maybe it makes its way into the New York Post.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe if you're lucky, they call it the yellow the yellow press or so,

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_01]: wasn't it sort of like dodgy papers somewhere in God knows where would publish a story about like a secret lab that had a leak that turned out to be AIDS or something.

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And then that would spread into the way this is just someone someone puts it on Elon Musk's Twitter

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_03]: because the algorithms are weighted to amplify it.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_03]: It goes everywhere, you know, that that's something that that seems different and especially kind of insidious.

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_03]: I do think, though, that it's ultimately far more destructive to the human race as a whole.

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, like I think it's it's it's one thing from a nationalistic standpoint for for one country to try and drag down another.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what I mean? Or try to posture itself at the extent at the expense of an adversary,

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_03]: whether that's perceived or accurate or not.

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. That's like nation states competing against each other is one thing.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_03]: But it seems kind of gross to me.

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's it's where I think small d democratic Western societies would would would draw the line between trying to an offensive information operation that is targeted at China.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_03]: I think we would draw the line if if if the nature of that campaign dumbed down the entire human race.

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what I mean?

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's I think that's that's a very different kind of thing.

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, like you look at like all the in the year of our Lord twenty twenty four, all the kind of great things that that that we have now that they're so just common to us that we didn't even think about it.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know, like personal hygiene, penicillin, running water, electricity to say nothing of like sending rockets up into space and shit, you know, like the Internet.

[00:40:07] [SPEAKER_03]: All of that happened because we had a public school system that work, you know, because we were we had a shared set of of of facts and objective reality of view and an objective view of reality that we were all reading from.

[00:40:24] [SPEAKER_03]: We may interpret it differently.

[00:40:25] [SPEAKER_03]: We may argue about it, you know, but we were all looking at the same at the same thing and then drawing conclusions from it.

[00:40:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we live in an age of personal realities now, don't we?

[00:40:35] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. Yeah, you can entirely just cocoon yourself off into whatever kind of bullshit sphere that you that you want.

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_03]: That's like it's it wasn't a it's not destiny or fate that that that we are where we are now as a species, you know, and it's not destiny or fate that we're going to continue to advance in the same positive way that we have, you know, like I'm reminded of my interview with you.

[00:41:05] [SPEAKER_03]: A couple months ago with Garrett Graff, his book on on on UFOs and aliens and like objectively thinking like whether or not they exist.

[00:41:13] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. And if they do, like what are they?

[00:41:16] [SPEAKER_03]: The there's this like it's called the Drake equation, which basically measures like the likelihood that intelligent life exists somewhere in the universe.

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_03]: And one part of that equation is L right.

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_03]: L stands for longevity, which means like the the a civilizations longevity, the extent to which how long it can survive to the point that it's capable of interstellar travel.

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. Or surviving long enough to meet another race capable of interstellar travel.

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Right.

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_03]: And one really interesting part of his book is it's sort of like he says without UFO conspiracy theories, you ultimately wouldn't have gotten January 6th that that sort of laid the groundwork for this bullshit machine.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. Right.

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_03]: That that enabled people to believe that conspiracy theories behind the January 6 attack.

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's just so kind of ironic to me that like.

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Humans natural curiosity and obsession with the unknown to the extent that like UFOs must be real and like belief in all that conspiracy theories because you believe it because you think it's cool and it's interesting and you're curious about it and that's very natural and healthy to an extent, but you get so far invested into it that it's not healthy.

[00:42:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I find an extreme irony.

[00:42:36] [SPEAKER_03]: That it's that thing.

[00:42:39] [SPEAKER_03]: That is probably one of the biggest threats to us as a species literally surviving long enough to meeting one of these alien races or be capable of interstellar travel ourselves, you know, and this is these information campaigns are an acceleration is.

[00:42:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Factor in the wrong direction.

[00:42:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I think for that L and the Drake equation, and I think the 90s are such an interesting period of time because the Cold War is over and people started looking for another enemy.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously UFO culture became the thing and popularity of the X files.

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And then obviously internet culture taking off and so on.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that there's something in that 90s recipe of all sorts of things going on that exacerbated all of that because I think you know you can take conspiracy theories back to the shooting of JFK.

[00:43:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And then it kind of goes to Nixon and then Nixon is where you got the Nixon is where you got that real sense of betrayal and the beginning of widespread distrust.

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, exactly.

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the Church Committee staff with what the CIA had been up to in other countries and things and all that.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it led to this big distrust in America, which then obviously permeates over here through popular culture.

[00:44:02] [SPEAKER_01]: If you look at a lot of movies the 70s and 80s, a lot of the movies are all about not trusting the federal government.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, like there's I was looking at the work of John Badam who directed like Blue Thunder and stakeout stuff and frequently in his movies.

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_01]: There's always some inept FBI guy and the local cop is superior to the inept FBI who can't be trusted.

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And it seems to be a theme.

[00:44:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And then in the UK we have David Hare is a writer over here who's very well respected and he's obsessed with this idea that the MI5 tried to destroy the Wilson government, I think it was.

[00:44:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And every single bit of his spy fiction.

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Is there an episode of The Crown about that?

[00:44:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, everything he writes.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I think he wrote that particular episode of The Crown.

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you look at all his spy stuff, so look at collateral, look at page eight.

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, it's all about plots to the MI5 are up to trying to destabilise democracy and stuff like that.

[00:45:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And David Hare comes from a relatively well-to-do background.

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I think he probably went to Oxford or Cambridge and just has that very left wing kind of elitist left wing idea that somehow intelligence services can't be trusted, etc.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And it kind of permeates through his fiction and stuff that I've seen.

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, all this sort of stuff goes into popular culture.

[00:45:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the problem is we've said this many a time because the secret world is secret.

[00:45:27] [SPEAKER_01]: A lot of people look to popular culture novels for the peak behind the curtain.

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But most writers don't actually have any insight behind what's behind the curtain.

[00:45:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So they speculate and there's healthy speculation and unhealthy speculation.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously then there's the needs of drama.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And so anyway, going off on a very well trodden path there.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_03]: No, I think this is part of it.

[00:45:53] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's also an accelerationist thing that we were just talking about.

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_03]: Like that, yeah, I've been very vocal against in the spy genre, like the whole conspiracy plot device.

[00:46:05] [SPEAKER_03]: It's always the CIA, the MI6 or the ultimate bad guys and they're behind it.

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, have intelligence agencies to include the CIA and MI6,

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_03]: have they done shady harmful shit against their own people in the past?

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but that's not the norm.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_03]: But people who don't otherwise know any better or have the means to know better see that stuff.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_03]: And they think it's always like that and absolutely informs their worldview.

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's led to this deep state nonsense.

[00:46:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And so people watch TV shows where, I don't know,

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_01]: members of the CIA kill off members of the FBI or kill off people within their own ranks.

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I remember talking to Yaya Fadousi about this on one of our episodes.

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And he was saying one of the things he hates in dramas,

[00:46:52] [SPEAKER_01]: depicting the CIA is how much they kill each other.

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It's ridiculous.

[00:47:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And I just think it's lazy writing.

[00:47:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think also it's safe because the real world threats right now are countries like Russia.

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_01]: They are regimes like Iran.

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_01]: They are terrorists like ISIS or Al Qaeda.

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_01]: They are far-right terrorists, you know, and they're ugly things to talk about,

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_01]: especially when said terrorist is unfortunately somebody from another culture.

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_01]: It gets into very icky territory.

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_01]: It's difficult to navigate as a writer and navigate it well.

[00:47:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's just easier to blame it all on the CIA.

[00:47:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you know, it's sort of I think it was sort of easy throughout the Cold War to portray the Russians or even before them,

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_03]: you know, the Germans as like the ultimate bad guys in for Western countries because they were white people, you know.

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_03]: But if you're going against China or Iran or something, they're not.

[00:47:57] [SPEAKER_03]: And of course that is totally it gets it's a delicate line.

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_03]: It's how you do it and stuff.

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, it gets murky very quickly.

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, indeed.

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah.

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So back to Tom's article.

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, with all that in fiction and stuff, how does anybody have any hope?

[00:48:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Because people don't read that much anymore.

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_01]: They don't read factual books that often.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_01]: People turn to popular fiction.

[00:48:23] [SPEAKER_01]: They turn to TV more than they do fictional books.

[00:48:25] [SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, people on commutes and stuff probably do read more books or listen to audio books.

[00:48:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But most people turn to fiction a lot of the time or, you know, obviously now with the rise of podcasting about doing ourselves a disservice here.

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But there are a lot of true crime podcasts out there by people who have zero actual knowledge about the topic.

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_03]: But they speculate on real people in active open cases and stuff.

[00:48:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And they always find the most inflammatory case.

[00:48:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And the thing is, especially with intelligence, we always know about the failures.

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_01]: We generally don't talk about the successes.

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know how many true crime podcasts talk about the successful arrest and prosecution of so-and-so for such and such terrible thing.

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_01]: I imagine most of them, I could be wrong here, but I think most of them are about, oh, wasn't it terrible?

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So-and-so was murdered and how the police really fucked that up.

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I think most true crime podcasts tend to be that.

[00:49:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And I've certainly-

[00:49:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Where they try to solve all that themselves and blaming someone who has a lot of that.

[00:49:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, so it's a fine line one has to tread on all these things really.

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And I like to think at least for our podcast we do a pretty good job to try and actually cut through the nonsense and get to hopefully, you know, as close as we can get to facts.

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Obviously there's always going to be things we will never know.

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think through, you know, I think we've probably got into the logic of how Western intelligence works, I think, just by talking to so many people.

[00:50:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I think we kind of know sort of how they think and we certainly know the processes like, you know, for example, an assassination takes presidential approval.

[00:50:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So depending on who the president is will determine whether that's likely to happen or not.

[00:50:15] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, stuff like that.

[00:50:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's not easy to go around assassinating people willy nilly.

[00:50:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Unlike the people who do do it are the Russians, not the West.

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so my spy fiction, my way to CIA go and kill loads of people.

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Really is the Russians who do that shit at the moment, at least in that way.

[00:50:30] [SPEAKER_01]: We tend to drone people.

[00:50:32] [SPEAKER_01]: The British and Americans tend to use drones and stuff or we might use a third party if we're going to.

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's usually currently it's usually in the context of a war zone of some sort.

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not knocking on someone's door in Vienna and bumping them off.

[00:50:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, but there we go.

[00:50:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Under very, very rare circumstances, very rare circumstances.

[00:50:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, indeed, indeed, indeed.

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, we've got 10 minutes left.

[00:50:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So I've got a bit of Putin's propagandists and the bit of Royal Navy.

[00:51:04] [SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah, we can do this one.

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_03]: We can do this one quick.

[00:51:06] [SPEAKER_03]: So this next one, sort of a follow up to what we talked about before with the aid package to Ukraine in the last episode.

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_03]: It has passed, thank God.

[00:51:17] [SPEAKER_03]: So but after Congress finally passed a bill providing Ukraine with urgently needed military aid,

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_03]: the Kremlin's top propagandists struggle to explain what went wrong.

[00:51:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Russian state TV hosts had previously celebrated the interruption of US aid to Ukraine, referring to House Speaker Mike Johnson as our Johnson.

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to just leave that one alone for a second in a similar vein to how they refer to Trump as Trumpushka.

[00:51:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Vladimir Solovyev expressed his appointment in the aid package and vowed that Russia would continue fighting.

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Solovyev, in a way, even praised Biden's supposed victory over the aid package, claiming,

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_03]: What is interesting is how Biden totally broke Trump and his supporters.

[00:51:55] [SPEAKER_03]: He utterly destroyed them.

[00:51:57] [SPEAKER_03]: This is Biden's unequivocal brutal victory because in return he did not give anything to Republicans.

[00:52:03] [SPEAKER_03]: I think we should cut that in an ad.

[00:52:05] [SPEAKER_03]: I might text some people to see if they would like to do that.

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_03]: RT head Margarita Simonian insulted Americans and claiming most were ugly,

[00:52:15] [SPEAKER_03]: judging by her time working as a waitress in Maine and blamed US media for their dumbification.

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_03]: I will decline to comment on that one.

[00:52:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Boris Yakomenko, host of the show Morning Z, claimed the US was a nation of disrespectful mutts with no history or national pride.

[00:52:32] [SPEAKER_03]: The Nazis were saying that too back in the day.

[00:52:36] [SPEAKER_03]: Despite the bluster, Russians continued to suffer under Putin's war in Ukraine.

[00:52:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Appearing on the evening with Vladimir Solovyev last week,

[00:52:44] [SPEAKER_03]: Karen Shakharozov urged fellow propagandists to start telling the truth about Russia's internal struggles and its many problems.

[00:52:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Instead, others on the panel simply warned their viewers that hard times were coming and there was no resolution in sight,

[00:52:58] [SPEAKER_03]: but Russia would certainly win in the end.

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_03]: The host then mocked Ukrainians for receiving American aid while appealing for donations to supply Russian troops.

[00:53:08] [SPEAKER_03]: Chris, I entirely threw this into the show just for schadenfreude purposes.

[00:53:12] [SPEAKER_03]: I have really nothing else to comment on it, so I will leave that to you.

[00:53:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, first point, I suppose, was let's hope that this serves as a reminder to Russian viewers that watching these people, that they're all full of nonsense.

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And sadly, on the Trump side of the Republican Party, their actions and words do play into Russian propaganda efforts.

[00:53:34] [SPEAKER_01]: No wonder they're kind of popular in Russia on these shows at the moment.

[00:53:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously those said talking points do then echo back to people who are sympathetic to Trump back in America.

[00:53:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think this should serve as a reminder of the power of influence operations,

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_01]: as effectively Russia did manage to stall vital USA to Ukraine for months via their propaganda efforts.

[00:54:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's nice to at least see the, you know, people talk about Republicans like liberal tears.

[00:54:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I quite like seeing Kremlin stooges tears occasionally.

[00:54:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, yeah.

[00:54:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so, yeah, I think there's not much more I can add to that, but it is a good piece and people should check it out.

[00:54:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it is just a timely reminder that these Russian propagandists are full of shit.

[00:54:27] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_03]: This isn't really the style of the show, but I would love to add in like a clip here of that kid from The Simpsons who would go, ha ha!

[00:54:35] Ha ha!

[00:54:36] [SPEAKER_03]: So here's the last one.

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_03]: It's called The Royal Navy is going through a difficult time by Sandbox News.

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So, the U.S. Navy currently fields approximately 233 active combat warships and plans to expand towards a 500 ship force,

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_03]: combining manned and unmanned vessels in preparation for potential future conflict with China.

[00:54:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Despite the PLAs compared to the larger fleet, which numbers over 700 ships,

[00:55:02] [SPEAKER_03]: the U.S. Navy maintains qualitative superiority in technology, manpower and experience.

[00:55:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Although in the event of a war in the Pacific, the U.S. military would heavily rely on allies like the UK and France for support and operational coverage.

[00:55:15] [SPEAKER_03]: However, European navies, including the Royal Navy, have suffered due to factors like the end of the Cold War, counterterrorism efforts and the global financial crisis.

[00:55:24] [SPEAKER_03]: The Royal Navy now fields significantly fewer combat ships than at its peak in 1991,

[00:55:30] [SPEAKER_03]: with only 40 surface combatants and submarines currently operational.

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Compare this to the 55 vessels the U.S. Navy had underway worldwide as of the first week of April.

[00:55:41] [SPEAKER_03]: Recent mechanical issues such as those experienced by the HMS Prince of Wales also highlight the operational challenges within the Royal Navy.

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_03]: The declining state the Royal Navy should raise concerns for both London and Washington concerning the effectiveness of allied support in potential future conflicts.

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Chris, what do you think about this one?

[00:55:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a state of affairs. Yeah, the Royal Navy and UK defense has been facing critical cuts going back.

[00:56:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Some people go back to Gordon Brown's time in government, and certainly Gordon Brown's government actually commissioned the two aircraft carriers that are now having problems.

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Other people point to David Cameron and his government as being responsible for the most savage cuts, and I think there is definitely something to be said for that.

[00:56:25] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we're in a situation where we've got these two very expensive aircraft carriers that only recently just got jets,

[00:56:30] [SPEAKER_01]: and they both are beset with all sorts of technical issues, and it's kind of a national embarrassment.

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And they've been seen by a lot of members of the public as outdated technology and expensive technology.

[00:56:44] [SPEAKER_01]: The carriers?

[00:56:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, because a lot of people in popular, not about knowledgeable people, I'm talking about people more in popular kind of circles see big aircraft carriers as things that are a bit outdated in the age of the drone and terrorism.

[00:56:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that's true. I think actually these aircraft carriers are part of US strategy with regards to the potential future war of China.

[00:57:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's why we have them, and that's why we've got F-35s on them.

[00:57:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think one of the ultimate issues with the Royal Navy is not only are they always subjected to very heavy cuts, more for political benefit these cuts than they are for actual strategic goals.

[00:57:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think the other problem is that we, I just don't think the public are really knowledgeable enough about the reality of why we need the Royal Navy, which is leading to these politicians being able to get away with gutting it the way they have.

[00:57:44] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, frequently we have this very hysterical debate about Trident, the nuclear deterrent, and whether we should have it or not.

[00:57:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And it descends into people saying, oh, you're pro-nuclear war if you think we should have Trident, which is ridiculous.

[00:57:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And it just gets really stupid and far left politicians like Jeremy Corbyn love to use Trident as this sort of thing of paint it as a waste of money.

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I think of all the hospitals that we could build with that money.

[00:58:15] [SPEAKER_01]: But the thing is, if you didn't have Trident, then, you know, God forbid there might be an attack one day and we're going to need a shitload of hospitals after that.

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So you never know. It's a very nasty thing.

[00:58:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And the last point is we have a very dysfunctional procurement issue in the UK and our build times are very slow.

[00:58:33] [SPEAKER_01]: To build a ship takes a long time.

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And also to repair a ship seems to take a ridiculous amount of time as well.

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So like with the aircraft carriers, the worst thing at the moment is our submarines.

[00:58:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Our submarines are now going on these six month deployments.

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_01]: That's not natural. They're supposed to go on three month deployments maximum and they're going on six months deployments.

[00:58:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's because one of the submarines, as far as I know, is in repairs going on.

[00:58:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And there's still this very long delay in getting the replacement subs out.

[00:59:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a real kind of problematic, toxic area that I don't see getting any necessarily getting any better, especially now when you're seeing what's going on in Ukraine in the way they're having successes with drones attacking traditional naval ships.

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I think a lot of people in the public are going to interpret that as, oh, well, we don't really need a Navy anymore because, hey, they can be taken out by drones.

[00:59:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's a bit like the argument about aircraft carriers, the targets for missiles.

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_01]: But they don't understand there's a whole kind of infrastructure around an aircraft carrier that prevents that kind of stuff.

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I just think in the UK with unfortunately the public knowledge on why we need these things is getting borderline childish and hysterical.

[00:59:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And something needs to be done because again, I see this all the time.

[00:59:52] [SPEAKER_01]: The left that the West is always painted as the warmonger.

[00:59:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So every time we're trying to update our military that we need to do to kind of keep up with the times, it's just seen as a move because we're warmongers or any talk about an aggressive China is again always just evidence of Western propaganda.

[01:00:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Because really the West are all warmongers and trying to do whatever.

[01:00:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And it just gets to that level.

[01:00:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's very frustrating.

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So I hope I covered all that in a very short space of time.

[01:00:20] [SPEAKER_03]: You did. You did good.

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_03]: I would just add a couple.

[01:00:22] [SPEAKER_03]: I would just add a couple thoughts here.

[01:00:25] [SPEAKER_03]: If I were running the Pentagon or the State Department in a very tough love kind of in the family way, I would be pushing you guys on this pretty hard.

[01:00:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And I probably would have started a while ago.

[01:00:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I think in the event of a war in the Pacific, which I really hope can be avoided, but there may come a day where it's necessary in the same way that a war in Europe was necessary 80 years ago.

[01:00:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Ultimately, we're going to need you guys seriously.

[01:00:56] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I don't know.

[01:00:59] [SPEAKER_03]: I just see you kind of like unilaterally disarming.

[01:01:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I think Europe has been for some time.

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I think especially Germany, I think, especially in that time around Snowden.

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Hopefully that's changing a bit more with they got a bit more their senses knocked into them with the Russians.

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I think with Ukraine, that is the game changer, hopefully for the positive.

[01:01:18] [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, I just think with you guys, you know, like you're our closest friends in the world and like for now anyway, and I hope it continues to be a nuclear power.

[01:01:27] [SPEAKER_03]: And I just really wish you wouldn't be so shy to act like one.

[01:01:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, indeed.

[01:01:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Indeed. I think we, you know, why the philosophical debate here, but I think at the moment we've got too many people who are questioning historical sins and using that as evidence to believe that, you know, that the West shouldn't be defended anymore.

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just becoming a bit dysfunctional.

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But maybe that's for another episode that debate.

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_03]: We should have a we should have Ian Ballentine on here to talk, maybe the three of us to talk talk more about this in depth.

[01:02:03] [SPEAKER_03]: That'd be interesting.

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

[01:02:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Definitely. Well, quick plug for Ian Ballentine.

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_01]: He's got his own podcast called Warships Pod, which I actually I produce.

[01:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So I've had I've listened to lots of people from former Navy people rant and rant about how the Royal Navy has been gutted and terrible and how we need more personnel.

[01:02:20] [SPEAKER_01]: We've got a very dysfunctional recruitment process at the moment.

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So we've got a big personnel shortage in the Navy as well as equipment dysfunction.

[01:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And we've even got one or two ships that we just don't have enough crew to put on.

[01:02:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So there are one or two ships sitting there because there's not enough crew.

[01:02:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a real mess, the Royal Navy currently.

[01:02:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And I don't say that with any glee or anything like that.

[01:02:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's unfortunately not a bit of a mess.

[01:02:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't want this. And some politicians who hold the purse strings need to wise up and sort it out.

[01:02:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think we need to find a way to educate the public where it doesn't get painted by the left as propaganda and doesn't get painted by the right as some sort of way to justify extortion, you know, ridiculous spending.

[01:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So there we go.

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely.

[01:03:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, well on that note, I think we'll wrap up because unfortunately I've got to go.

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_01]: But so Matt, thank you so much for your time today and thank you everybody out there.

[01:03:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for your support. We do really appreciate it.

[01:03:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Only thing I'd ask is if you enjoy what we do, please spread the word among friends, family, etc. who might be interested in this.

[01:03:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Your support goes a long way.

[01:03:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're going through a process where we're trying to upgrade some of our equipment.

[01:03:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So by about September, we're going to start offering a video version of the espresso martini and extra shot shows.

[01:03:41] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what we're kind of working towards.

[01:03:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So actively testing tech at the moment to try and get the right aesthetic that will please the inner filmmaker me because I'm not a big fan of podcasts that rely on webcams and make people look like they're in a black site somewhere.

[01:03:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh my God. I've seen some atrocious as a filmmaker.

[01:04:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I would just say I've just I have seen some atrocious things on the Internet that pass for visual podcasts and and like my all those years of film school anyway.

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_01]: We're even going there.

[01:04:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So this podcast, our aim is not only be as correct as we can, but to look as good as we can too.

[01:04:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So there we are.

[01:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And we need your help to make it happen.

[01:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So there we go. A bit like that World War One poster.

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_01]: We need you. So there we go.

[01:04:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So have a great weekend, everybody, and we will catch you on the next one.

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you. Bye, everyone.