S8 Ep44: Havana Syndrome from a technological and medical perspective.

[00:00:01] Due to the themes of this podcast listener discretion is advised

[00:00:07] Lock your doors close the blinds change your passwords. This is secrets and spies

[00:00:27] Secrets and spies is a podcast that dives into the world of espionage

[00:00:31] Terrorism geopolitics and intrigue this podcast is produced and hosted by Chris Carr on today's podcast. I'm joined by two guests

[00:00:40] Dr. Chris Gilbert and dr. Eric Hassel teen and we take a further look at Havana syndrome. Dr

[00:00:45] Chris Gilbert is an integrative and holistic medicine physician who has interviewed victims of these so-called

[00:00:51] Anomalous health incidents otherwise known as Havana syndrome

[00:00:55] Dr. Hassel teen is a neuroscientist and author whose work for the NSA as their director of research

[00:01:01] And he went on to become the director of science and technology for the US intelligence community

[00:01:07] Dr. Hassel teen also wrote an excellent book called the spy in Moscow station, which may hold the key to what is behind Havana syndrome

[00:01:14] So dr. Gilbert and dr

[00:01:16] Hassel teen providers today with both a technological and medical perspective on Havana syndrome

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[00:01:55] Dr. Chris Gilbert and dr. Eric Hassel teen. Welcome to the podcast. How are you both doing? Thank you so much

[00:02:15] Thank you for having us. We're doing great. We're doing great. Thanks. Excellent was good to have you both on

[00:02:21] So for the benefit of listeners, please could just tell us a bit about yourselves and your professional experience. I am a

[00:02:27] neuroscientist by training and

[00:02:30] I guess you could say I went bad and went into the intelligence business where I was

[00:02:35] director of research at NSA then I was the

[00:02:40] Director of science and technology for the US intelligence community

[00:02:45] and I wrote a book about

[00:02:50] Russian tradecraft in

[00:02:54] Intelligence gathering called the spy in Moscow station and

[00:02:58] I think that's a good background for me

[00:03:02] And I'm a physician by training and I you can hear a French accent

[00:03:07] So I was born in Paris France. I studied in Paris France. I had a private practice

[00:03:15] In the suburb of Paris and then I left I worked for doctors without borders

[00:03:22] I had several missions in charge of refugee camps in

[00:03:27] in Sri Lanka

[00:03:29] During the civil war but also in Mozambique. I worked in Mauritania and I worked in China

[00:03:37] 400,000 people that were displaced by the floods in the summer

[00:03:41] And I also did a hyperbaric

[00:03:45] Specialty medicine specialist. I'm a scuba doctor. So I worked in several resorts as a scuba doctor

[00:03:51] and

[00:03:52] And then I had a private practice in Los Angeles

[00:03:55] We came to Los Angeles and and now I don't see patients anymore

[00:04:01] But I we write books together with Eric and very interested in the Havana syndrome

[00:04:07] So interviewing people with Havana syndrome joined writing about Havana syndrome for psychology today. We're both writers for psychology today

[00:04:15] and

[00:04:17] Well, that's it. Brilliant. Brilliant was an awful lot. You both have been doing there. It's a fantastic

[00:04:23] So thank you again for joining me. So I'm dr. Gilbert. I'll start with you

[00:04:26] You've spoken with victims of Havana syndrome. Can you just tell us sort of what is known about it?

[00:04:31] well, we we know that there are some but there are more than

[00:04:36] 250 people

[00:04:37] What working at the State Department and and their other American personnel that are reporting?

[00:04:44] several symptoms

[00:04:46] I'll get to the symptoms, you know, the affected people are usually in their 20s

[00:04:52] 30s or 40s

[00:04:54] They're usually in very great physical shape and they've been pre cleared their pre screened

[00:05:01] Strong good, you know and

[00:05:03] There's symptoms start all the sudden when they're stationed. So some of them were stationed in Cuba either in Russia

[00:05:12] others in China some in India in Austria in Germany in Switzerland and even in the US and

[00:05:19] While they were staying at hotels

[00:05:21] Apartment offices or sometimes they were just driving in an automobile when the first symptoms occurred

[00:05:28] So out of those 250 people

[00:05:33] 24 of them showed

[00:05:36] puzzling

[00:05:37] combination of symptoms that were never seen before and that's very interesting that that combination was never seen before that includes

[00:05:46] their feeling of dizziness and a headache and they were reporting loud

[00:05:51] high frequency

[00:05:53] Very directional sounds that come from a very specific

[00:05:58] Location if they turn their head in a different way, they don't hear those sounds

[00:06:02] So they're very piercing and very painful those sounds and very often in the middle of the night

[00:06:08] and those sounds when that when the when the people leave the room they disappear and when they

[00:06:15] re-enter the room that

[00:06:17] reappears which which has never

[00:06:19] Been seen before and a lot of people that we interviewed described cognitive problem with

[00:06:26] Memory problems and very slow processing speed of their brain, but they also have nausea

[00:06:34] hearing loss

[00:06:35] hear pain

[00:06:37] tinnitus which is buzzing in the ear on a constant basis

[00:06:42] some of the people we interviewed

[00:06:45] insomnia

[00:06:46] irritability and they end up with

[00:06:49] depression, so those are

[00:06:51] Symptoms again a combination of since is very unique. Mm-hmm

[00:06:56] Yeah, it sounds pretty awful have the victims actually displays sort of physical symptoms that are measurable after an attack

[00:07:02] so a lot of myths true are not measurable, but

[00:07:06] the

[00:07:07] Those people there is so we interviewed also

[00:07:12] specialists and it was

[00:07:14] in February

[00:07:16] 2002 you're organized by the University of Texas Southwestern

[00:07:20] Medical there was a day of conferences led by dr. Kenneth the clava that we knew

[00:07:26] Who's a psychiatrist at the University of Texas?

[00:07:30] Southwestern and there were multi-disciplinary speakers

[00:07:34] And here are several ear and nose here nose and throat specialists

[00:07:39] neurologists psychiatrists

[00:07:41] rehabilitation medicine specialists

[00:07:44] Bio-ethics specialists and and they described that there is only one thing

[00:07:51] That is common to all those

[00:07:55] 24 people that showed this unique combination of symptoms and that only one thing that is measurable is

[00:08:03] problems

[00:08:05] perceiving linear

[00:08:07] accelerations both

[00:08:09] horizontally and

[00:08:11] Vertically and which means that they don't know the other leaf

[00:08:16] In the ER in the inner ear little organs that allow you to

[00:08:21] when you when you

[00:08:23] Walk forward it says, you know when you're in a car and going forward says oh I'm going forward

[00:08:28] When you go backwards is oh, I'm going backwards

[00:08:31] It detects the motion but when you have problem you cannot detect whether you're going forward or backwards

[00:08:38] If it's vertically the sense of gravity you can detect this anymore and all those are measurable

[00:08:44] this is the only thing that's measurable and that's the only thing that

[00:08:48] The that is detectable and measurable and all of them all of those victims have

[00:08:55] measurable

[00:08:57] problems in those perceiving linear accelerations

[00:09:02] The rest is not measurable one other thing as well have the attacks always been

[00:09:08] person specific or have other people been harmed or all could other people in

[00:09:13] Proximity of which we say the target be harmed. That's a very interesting question

[00:09:18] there were people in the proximity because

[00:09:22] sometimes

[00:09:23] It was people were close to window and sometimes

[00:09:26] There were kids that were close to the window too and sometimes there are dogs also

[00:09:31] So the kids we have reports of kids in the same room that had

[00:09:37] Nose bleed at the same time that had symptoms

[00:09:41] And also their reports of dogs that had problems

[00:09:46] What did the dog have to remember the symptoms of the dogs just ran away barking?

[00:09:51] Yeah, they couldn't be in the room

[00:09:54] and

[00:09:55] so kids and and

[00:09:58] Dogs, it's interesting because animals have a slightly do they have a slightly better sense of hearing than humans?

[00:10:04] Yeah, yeah, they do they much higher frequency and much lower threshold. So right away they can't stand it right away

[00:10:11] They leave the room and they cannot they don't want to come back in the room because it's room

[00:10:15] Specific again because it's usually through a window. So the

[00:10:20] rooms that are away from a window

[00:10:23] Don't have they're not

[00:10:25] Attacked so the dogs run to the room that are not close to the window

[00:10:30] Yeah, it makes sense and you mentioned it as well that was it quite a large number of attacks happened at night

[00:10:35] Is there any reason for that?

[00:10:37] Mostly, it's true. That's mostly at night

[00:10:40] This is the way they describe and the way you can explain if it's through a window. It's probably much easier

[00:10:46] it's your part more your

[00:10:48] your part Eric

[00:10:51] Because I don't know but I theorize that it's because the victims are stationary, okay

[00:10:57] Okay, so it makes them a tree saying easier target. That's right

[00:11:00] But when there are in they're driving in an automobile sometimes sometimes I mean

[00:11:06] There isn't it isn't always at night. It isn't always necessarily through a window

[00:11:11] Some people have described effects in rooms that didn't have windows

[00:11:15] It isn't that clean, okay, okay, so it's sort of yeah

[00:11:20] So is he saying this is of a little bit not haphazard, but it's there's no specific

[00:11:25] Mo, but there's certainly

[00:11:28] Kind of a commonality should we say? Yeah. Yeah, a lot of people report waking up with

[00:11:33] You know noise in their ear vertigo

[00:11:37] pressure on their head pressure on the side of their face

[00:11:42] Nauseous

[00:11:44] Brain fog, that's a pretty common but there have been other instances where it wasn't at night and they weren't indoors

[00:11:52] Yeah, there's like in the summer of 2019 Olivia Troy. She's been interviewed

[00:11:57] on TV

[00:11:59] she was the homeland security and counterterrorism advisor to Mike Pence vice president and when she was

[00:12:06] Walking down the steps in front of the Eisenhower executive office building

[00:12:11] on West Executive

[00:12:13] Avenue adjacent to the West Wing of the White House

[00:12:18] No, which was near the Oval Office she had a

[00:12:23] piercing feeling on the right side of her head

[00:12:28] followed by vertigo nausea on steadiness and disorientation

[00:12:33] So and that was completely outside

[00:12:35] She was walking and and she felt the same thing three more times in 2019 and also in

[00:12:43] 2020 and those times she was also outside

[00:12:46] But she was in the ellipse. So that was completely completely outside and completely

[00:12:53] During daylight daytime Wow, and was she alone when that attack happened? She was yeah

[00:13:00] Yeah, okay

[00:13:01] No

[00:13:01] It's just interesting to know that it sort of helps build a picture of what this could be

[00:13:05] So I suppose before we get into the technology that may or may not be behind the attack

[00:13:10] Can you talk to us a little bit about the effects of radio frequencies and microwaves on the on the brain?

[00:13:15] So on the brain what it does it it heats up brain tissue

[00:13:21] Which can give DNA damage and oxidative stress

[00:13:26] also, the the past microwave can cause micro explosions in the brain and

[00:13:33] In animals we've measured those effects and we can see it affects it affect the memory

[00:13:39] The learning is not as good. It affects the cognition of animals. This is what we're measuring

[00:13:45] Thank you for that. Is there anything else? Dr. Hazel team you like to add to that? Well, it's interesting that

[00:13:50] the micro explosion idea is it's

[00:13:54] Heating that happens so fast that the can't dissipate so you have these where they're called thermo elastic

[00:14:01] shock waves and

[00:14:04] those

[00:14:05] The National Academy of Science study and subsequent studies have hypothesized that

[00:14:11] those kinds of shock waves either in the brain or another tissue or

[00:14:16] Possibly even in the inner ear could be the actual cause of the damage

[00:14:21] Sorry repeat that last bit for me. I just wanted to just check I heard that right

[00:14:24] So if here's the fascinating thing and it gets into why these things might be so undetectable

[00:14:32] if you have any kind of

[00:14:34] Radiofrequency energy and you

[00:14:38] Put a lot of power into a very very very short pulse, which means the amount of energy per unit time

[00:14:47] You can create tremendous

[00:14:49] Effects, but the average power is almost zero

[00:14:53] so if you put a strong power in a less than a nanosecond pulse and

[00:14:59] You look at how much

[00:15:01] Energy per second there is it's not really even any different from background noise. So

[00:15:10] The theory I think that's going around

[00:15:13] And again, the National Academy of Science study concluded this that that's probably what it is

[00:15:19] It's probably something extremely short that has high peak power, but very low average power

[00:15:24] So it's not going to cause any heating you wouldn't even necessarily feel heat on your face

[00:15:28] But because it piles more energy into your tissue then your tissue can dissipate it's going to create these shock waves and

[00:15:37] so

[00:15:38] that is the prevailing theory of

[00:15:41] What could be behind this is very very short?

[00:15:46] Radiofrequency energy of a wavelength that is unknown and because it's nanoseconds

[00:15:53] They're so short. We cannot detect them

[00:15:56] Because it's too short to be detected which is a genius genius. Well, it's that's yes

[00:16:03] They're too short if they're random. Mm-hmm. In other words, if you knew that the pulses were going to happen every you know

[00:16:11] 10 seconds or 100 milliseconds or something you could lock on to them

[00:16:18] But if you randomly disperse them and

[00:16:21] They're very very low average power most of the

[00:16:26] Receiver gear that we have today just wouldn't wouldn't detect them. And that's that's one of the frustrating things is

[00:16:34] That

[00:16:36] People say they can't detect anything, but that doesn't mean anything isn't there and that same thing happened in the book that I wrote about

[00:16:44] Moscow Embassy that the Russians were able to

[00:16:47] hide

[00:16:48] Pulses of electromagnetic energy where we just couldn't see them

[00:16:52] We were listening for him and we didn't see him because they were very clever and how they hid them

[00:16:57] You would need to create special gear

[00:17:00] Special equipment to detect those which we don't have yet

[00:17:04] Oh, we get we were working on trying to create some of those but yeah, we were working on it. But then when that

[00:17:12] Conclusion came out. No, there's nothing there. We just said well look, you know

[00:17:16] There there's no interest in this the officialdom has decided there's nothing here so we just stopped working on it

[00:17:24] Yeah, the way you describe it kind of I'm going a bit off on a tangent here. So forgive me

[00:17:29] I've always been interested in number stations and sort of like these sort of secret

[00:17:34] Broadcasts and some of them kind of go off in you know

[00:17:38] nanoseconds and they sort of fire off a lot of data in a short period of time and it feels very similar to that kind

[00:17:43] Of sort of technology a bit like the mi6 rock in in Moscow if you remember that yeah

[00:17:49] You're talking about micro bursts. This isn't really quite like that

[00:17:52] Okay, some those actually have a lot of power because they have a lot of data in them

[00:17:57] I mean a lot of absolute power, you know over time because

[00:18:01] If you're gonna send data you need power and the more data you're gonna send the more power you need

[00:18:05] There's just no getting around that here. You're not sending any data. It may not even be

[00:18:10] Radio frequencies in the way we normally think about them because normal radio frequencies you have what you call a carrier

[00:18:17] Like when you tune the radio to you know, 1600 kilohertz

[00:18:22] That's what we call the carrier frequency and then the information is encoded on top of that carrier

[00:18:28] Right, and so almost all radio communication uses that approach whether it's a M or FM

[00:18:35] But Marconi way back in the early 1900s

[00:18:40] Had what he called a spark gap, which is just basically a spark and that's how the early

[00:18:47] wireless radio

[00:18:48] telegraphy worked and

[00:18:51] Just opening and breaking circuits and a pulse like that could do damage

[00:18:55] It doesn't necessarily have to be

[00:18:58] Radio frequency in the classic sense that we think about it

[00:19:02] In fact, there's some workers at UCLA doing exactly that just looking at

[00:19:08] No carrier frequency ultra high band communication

[00:19:12] so we have to keep an open mind when we look at this and

[00:19:17] You know I hear

[00:19:19] X quote-unquote experts say oh this is impossible

[00:19:21] it is there's no way you could have enough energy to do that or you couldn't penetrate the skin or can't do this or

[00:19:27] can't do that and

[00:19:30] I get nervous about people who say what's impossible when they've never actually done it and

[00:19:37] So anyhow, I'll let you go on and ask your question

[00:19:41] Which why we have you on because you know far more about it than I do

[00:19:46] So dr. Hazel teen you read that brilliant book the spy Moscow station, which as we spoke about I think it was in 2019

[00:19:53] Your book goes into detail about this man Charles Gandhi who was ignored both by the CIA and the State Department for many years and so

[00:20:00] I'm not really taken seriously about his findings which was to do with

[00:20:04] microbugs that were hidden in typewriters and

[00:20:08] And he also sort of studied the sort of microwaves that are being projected at the US Embassy in Moscow

[00:20:13] So I was wondering if you could talk to us a little bit about this sort of technology that Gandhi

[00:20:17] Discovered and how it may be sort of similar or even the same kind of technology being used with regards to Havana syndrome today

[00:20:24] well, there are two separate things to talk about the one is what the bug that Gandhi discovered and

[00:20:31] The radio transmissions from it were not exactly relevant in that

[00:20:36] They're probably weren't in the range of being close to harmful

[00:20:39] however

[00:20:40] The the techniques the Russians used to mask them are very relevant and what they did is

[00:20:47] They knew what kind of equipment we were going to use

[00:20:50] to detect it and

[00:20:53] they knew that if they

[00:20:57] Put the

[00:20:59] Transmissions in what we call ghost signals if you have two big

[00:21:04] FM transmitters for TV like they did in Moscow. It's going to create an artificial ghost tone

[00:21:11] inside the receiver that's not there but because of

[00:21:16] defects if you call it that in the receiver that are in all receivers you get these ghost signals and

[00:21:22] What they did is they hid the signals underneath those ghosts

[00:21:26] And so they tuned out the ghost

[00:21:29] While tuning in the actual signal so we listened and we said oh there's nothing there and

[00:21:35] I mean that was one way they did it but the principle to keep in mind is that

[00:21:40] Today with this incredible amount of RF energy that's out there with Wi-Fi and cell phones and satellite and you know

[00:21:49] In Internet of Things, I mean, it's just an incredible cacophony and noise out there. There are infinite opportunities to hide this stuff

[00:21:56] and as I said before the average power could be extremely low and

[00:22:01] If you on top of that you hide it underneath some other signal, you're never gonna see it

[00:22:07] Right. So the number one lesson there is it's possible to hide things

[00:22:13] It's not all that difficult and number two the microwaves were really there

[00:22:19] It started back in the 40s. It was a genius invention

[00:22:23] Which is you can basically without putting any power at all in a bug

[00:22:28] You can either put a bug in there that has no power or just use

[00:22:34] Surfaces and

[00:22:35] electronics that are already in the room to recover voice from a room and

[00:22:40] It gets technical as to how you do that

[00:22:43] But basically if you shine a radar at something

[00:22:47] Microwave you can recover vibrations and you can recover

[00:22:51] Changes in data and electronics so you can get both data and voice by flooding a room with

[00:22:58] microwaves and that's what the Russians were doing forever and

[00:23:03] The State Department and CIA goes, oh, we don't know what that is. Gee, they're probably just trying to jam us or something which was

[00:23:11] Crazy because we at NSA completely knew what it was for reasons

[00:23:16] we don't have to get into but we absolutely knew what they were doing and

[00:23:20] CIN State Department because the technology is a little esoteric

[00:23:25] And that's a really important point that it's not something that your average engineer even would comprehend

[00:23:33] It's very subtle and esoteric and for that reason they said oh, no, this is just science fiction

[00:23:39] You can't do that. So we took him to NSA and we showed him. Well, yeah, you can here it is

[00:23:44] And they said well you faked it. You're not really doing that

[00:23:48] so, you know this gets into the category of

[00:23:50] Upton Sinclair the American writer said that it's hard to explain something to a man whose job depends on not understanding it. Hmm

[00:24:01] Because you know these people are in charge of defending our embassies and

[00:24:06] If they admit that this thing has been going on for 30 40 years under their noses and they didn't know and do anything about it

[00:24:13] It's not gonna go well for them. So therefore their reaction is there's nothing here

[00:24:18] Yeah, which is really bad affects them the safety of those who work there

[00:24:23] So he talked us a little bit about sort of this

[00:24:26] Technology that we talked about if it were portable because this is what we're sort of getting at with Havana syndrome is potentially this

[00:24:33] Technology may have been weaponized and it's potentially portable

[00:24:36] What would it look like and what would it need to have on it? And how would it be powered?

[00:24:41] well, I mean, let's just talk about the technology if it is a microwave source you'd need some kind of

[00:24:48] Microwave generator and if it was short pulses, you'd need some kind of pulse forming network

[00:24:53] You'd need some kind of antenna to direct the energy and you need a power source

[00:24:58] Now people have said

[00:25:00] Quote-unquote experts. Well, this would have to be way too big and have way too much power and I say no

[00:25:06] And again, I'd want to know if there's experts had actually ever done anything like this as opposed to some of us who actually have

[00:25:14] and

[00:25:17] To answer your question what it would look like

[00:25:19] It would absolutely not look like anything abnormal. It would look like maybe

[00:25:24] An old camcorder it could look like a

[00:25:28] Telescope it could look like a camera

[00:25:31] They would almost for sure disguise it so that it would not look like what it was and you can do this because there are

[00:25:38] Materials that are transparent to radio frequencies. We call them radomes. There's certain kinds of plastic and

[00:25:44] Composites and things like that that radar waves will just zip right through

[00:25:48] So you would you would cover it up and mask it so it's it's not like you're pointing a you know, a death ray at someone

[00:25:56] It would for sure be covered up. It might actually be integral with a van or something like that

[00:26:02] It might be part of the ornamentation of a car

[00:26:06] It could be it could be made to look like a lot of different things and all the different components don't have to be in one

[00:26:11] Place you have to have the waveform generator and antenna

[00:26:16] You have to have the waveform generator and the antenna, you know the final amplifier next to the antenna

[00:26:22] But you don't have to have the power close to it, you know, so you could break it up into different pieces, you know

[00:26:29] The one thing I can almost guarantee you it looks anything like what it is from the outside

[00:26:34] But how accurate does it actually have to be this sort of technology? Um

[00:26:38] Don't know. I mean look I want to go just to start say

[00:26:44] Even though I have strong

[00:26:46] Suspicions, I don't know. Okay. I don't know if the attacks are real

[00:26:51] I suspect they are but I can't tell you a hundred percent that they are and

[00:26:55] The theory that I have is just a theory

[00:26:59] It may be that the conclusions that the intelligence community reads that there's nothing here and it's not possible and you know

[00:27:06] Go away. There's nothing to bother about it. Maybe that that's true and

[00:27:11] That we have to look for other explanations for the symptoms that the people have and so I don't claim to

[00:27:20] Know the ultimate truth and so just to ask well the kind of question you're asking

[00:27:27] It would depend on what the technology were

[00:27:31] but

[00:27:32] My guess is that my early thoughts when they first got into this back in I don't know

[00:27:40] 2018

[00:27:41] where Gandhi and I were working on the book and we were very aware of Havana syndrome and we were

[00:27:47] Looking into it in great detail

[00:27:50] And we were thinking about what it might be and

[00:27:54] Which wavelengths that might be or didn't have any wavelength. Was it like a

[00:27:58] impulse generator

[00:28:00] my initial thoughts were that it was probably something in the

[00:28:04] five to ten gigahertz range and

[00:28:07] And the reasons I had for that was propagation through tissue because we were thinking at that time that it was

[00:28:14] Affecting the brain and the micro vibrations in the brain were back propagating into the ear to create what's called a microwave hearing effect

[00:28:22] Where you can direct a microwave at?

[00:28:25] The ear and you can cause all kinds of clicks noises bangs

[00:28:31] buzzes

[00:28:32] Really loud noises and that kind of thing by artificially stimulating the cochlea with microwaves

[00:28:40] So that's what I thought originally

[00:28:42] More recently when I look carefully at the descriptions where a lot of them are by windows as dr. Gilbert said

[00:28:50] and

[00:28:52] When we look at the auto with damage is being which is in the inner ear being

[00:28:58] characteristic of many of the

[00:29:01] Not all but many of them I start to wonder if it isn't a much higher frequency when what we call the millimeter wave

[00:29:08] regimen and

[00:29:12] With millimeter waves the reason that you might suspect those is that you have an ear canal and

[00:29:19] That ear canal at a certain wavelength of radiofrequency is a waveguide

[00:29:25] which means that it's ultra efficient, it's kind of like a

[00:29:28] Radio frequency fiber optic

[00:29:32] So that means that it's an ultra efficient conduit of energy and that would impinge upon the

[00:29:39] tympanic membrane, which is very very very thin membrane and

[00:29:43] With enough high peak power you could get through that membrane and directly affect the inner ear

[00:29:49] So I'm beginning to suspect that this may not be an attack on the brain per se

[00:29:55] but on the inner ear

[00:29:58] Because that is a feature of most of these things now the symptoms and dr

[00:30:03] Gilbert can comment on this too because I know at the conference this came up

[00:30:07] That if you start with run devastating symptom like in your

[00:30:12] inner ear it can propagate in many different ways into having

[00:30:17] effects on your brain and in terms of stress in terms of

[00:30:24] fatigue in terms of

[00:30:27] You know just being a trauma to your to your nervous system in general

[00:30:31] Yeah, because the brain itself in the brain itself. There's compression. There's micro explosion. So there is a

[00:30:40] Consequence on the cells next to the ones that are affected. Yeah, it could be that too. I mean, honestly, we just don't know

[00:30:49] But

[00:30:50] The thing that disturbs me the most is these blanket pronouncements by experts that oh, that's impossible

[00:30:56] I've heard that so many times before and

[00:31:00] It might be improbable with the technology that we know

[00:31:04] But you have to understand about the Russians in particular

[00:31:08] that

[00:31:10] if

[00:31:11] This go to a hundred thousand feet and look at the problem. They have they have one dollar in 15

[00:31:18] To spend on defense versus NATO

[00:31:21] conglomerate including the US

[00:31:24] So in order to keep even they have to be very clever about what they choose to invest in

[00:31:31] so that they line up their strengths against our weaknesses so that they can equal the playing field and

[00:31:37] So they've focused on cyber and they focused on a few other areas, but particularly they focused on directed energy

[00:31:45] As being one of those areas like for example

[00:31:48] that's what could take out our satellites or that's what could screw up all of our fancy electronics or our

[00:31:54] Networking gear right? And so my own personal opinion is they could be not only ahead of us in directed energy

[00:32:01] but far far ahead of us and

[00:32:05] I

[00:32:07] Think that there they have shown themselves to be unbelievably resourceful inventive and clever when it comes to these kinds of things and

[00:32:15] So I

[00:32:16] Don't know that it's true. I'm not going to state it as a hundred percent fact, but I suspect that it is the Russians

[00:32:23] I suspect that it is some kind of directed energy

[00:32:26] that's probably in the

[00:32:28] microwave or millimeter wave category and that the damage is actually mostly focused on the

[00:32:35] Middle ear and that there are secondary effects on the brain

[00:32:39] but when you have a patient that has a trauma in one area it tends to kind of

[00:32:47] cascade and a domino effect and there can be you know, if that causes stress and stress is bad for the brain and you know

[00:32:54] You know stress can cause memory problems brain fog

[00:32:58] cognitive problems

[00:33:00] sleep problems insomnia and

[00:33:03] So there's no doubt that this is highly stressful and also the way that our community treats these people adds to the stress oh

[00:33:11] No, it's all in your head. You know, you're faking it

[00:33:15] You know when you're really suffering and in your own government tells you oh, no, there's nothing there. That's gonna cause some stress

[00:33:21] Mm-hmm, so it gets very very complicated indeed

[00:33:24] Well, there's professional repercussions for the victims and on top of that there's health care costs as well. That's right. And I

[00:33:32] You know, I have been there when Chris interviewed these victims and it's hard it's heartbreaking

[00:33:39] It's just heartbreaking to hear their stories. You know, they're devastated their lives will never be the same and permanently

[00:33:46] harmed and and you know, their lives have definitely taken a turn for the worse and

[00:33:51] To be blamed for your own affliction. I mean that's got to be the ultimate

[00:33:56] Yeah, and at the beginning they described that they were treated

[00:34:01] Very badly

[00:34:02] I mean there were people were the physicians were saying that it was all in their brain that they just needed to see a

[00:34:09] Psychiatrist or there was nothing that they could measure so they should just go home and get some rest or

[00:34:16] They were not taken

[00:34:19] Seriously and the the treatment

[00:34:22] really when when you have those kinds of symptoms, they need to be addressed right away and

[00:34:29] With specific

[00:34:31] Treatments and those were not

[00:34:33] put in place so

[00:34:35] Right away when you're not taken care of the right way things

[00:34:40] cascade in the you know and snowball in the wrong direction and

[00:34:46] Then they get more and more symptoms and get more and more stressed and they get

[00:34:49] Angry because they don't they're not being taken care of the right way. It's it's just horrible. What they describe is really horrible

[00:34:57] Now

[00:34:59] Nowadays, I think it's better like Walter Reed Hospital is taking care of them much better now with the most more appropriate treatment

[00:35:07] But it's late. I mean the longer you wait

[00:35:11] The more difficult it is to treat the the same symptoms

[00:35:15] So yeah, well, that's an interesting point. Dr. Chris just made in that there's a big investigation going on right now

[00:35:23] Where yes, the NIH did the study on the victims, but it is alleged that

[00:35:29] They said before you can get treatment at Walter Reed. You have to go through this study and

[00:35:35] It appears like that may have happened and in the medical world to

[00:35:41] precondition

[00:35:42] Volunteering for something to get medical treatment is a big big. No

[00:35:46] I mean to say that's an ethics violation would be an understatement and

[00:35:51] There is some evidence that that in fact happened and there's an investigation going on at CIA right now

[00:35:57] where

[00:35:58] officers like Mark Polly Monopoly

[00:36:01] monopolist

[00:36:03] Sorry, I can't I struggle. Yeah. Yeah. We spoke with him and

[00:36:08] He he's one of the ones that woke up in the middle of the night in Moscow with this this horrible

[00:36:14] symptoms and

[00:36:15] He and the other CIA officers are saying. Oh, yeah

[00:36:19] they said that

[00:36:21] you know, you got to go through this NIH study first and

[00:36:24] The NIH study which is just recently released found no physical evidence of

[00:36:30] anything different in these patients

[00:36:33] But I think we have to be

[00:36:35] Careful about just how good medical science is at discovering things, right?

[00:36:41] The fact that it didn't find it doesn't mean it's not there

[00:36:44] There are many many different things right now, particularly in the brain

[00:36:47] That for example chronic traumatic encephalopathy CTE, which is the injury that football players

[00:36:54] Experience there is no test in vivo with a live patient to detect that it's profound

[00:37:00] It has profound impact on memory learning headaches

[00:37:05] Volatile emotions all of the problems associated with it and you can't see a thing on any tests until they're dead and you have a biopsy

[00:37:12] So I mean, you know, I wouldn't invest too much in the fact NIH didn't find anything

[00:37:21] To me that doesn't necessarily mean anything but I want to go back to what I said before

[00:37:26] I do have opinions, but I have to admit I really we really still don't know

[00:37:32] Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll be right back

[00:37:52] One interesting thing came up in the 60 minutes documentary that came out in April

[00:37:57] Was that quite a few of the victims like mark that you mentioned earlier are sort of top-tier?

[00:38:03] Personnel from the CIA and some of them may have even been involved with operations in Ukraine

[00:38:08] I don't know if you have any thoughts or insight on any of that. I got to be careful what I say here

[00:38:15] There does seem to be and this has been made public a pattern in

[00:38:21] That the people who've been targeted seem to be in one form or another touching Russia

[00:38:28] Mark, Lindsey was a

[00:38:31] Counterintelligence specialist with the State Department and he was focusing heavily on Russia mark. Polly. I'm more opulence was another

[00:38:38] That on the surface and I haven't seen all the data but that seems to be a pattern

[00:38:45] And and by the way, if you again take a step back at 100,000 feet

[00:38:49] The Russians have a very long history of harassing people who were focusing on them

[00:38:55] And that harassment could include, you know sabotaging their hotel rooms in Moscow to

[00:39:02] Intimidating them to let you know we're watching you to

[00:39:05] There were cases that I know of where

[00:39:09] officers were trying to

[00:39:12] Disinstall a Russian surveillance device and we're booby-trapped and were killed

[00:39:17] So, you know if you target Russia, you're gonna pay a price and that's the message that they like to put out there

[00:39:24] This would be completely consistent with their trade crap

[00:39:27] Yeah

[00:39:27] But like the some of the assassinations of developers and people who were working for them

[00:39:32] Yeah, but like the some of the assassinations of defectors and things that have or attempted assassinations that have been going on in recent times

[00:39:39] Well, you know there used to be a kind of a gentleman's agreement

[00:39:43] between the intelligence agencies

[00:39:45] To not target each other's officers

[00:39:48] hmm because

[00:39:49] This could escalate obviously and get out of control and it wouldn't serve either side's interests. So there was this unwritten rule

[00:39:56] Don't target each other's

[00:39:59] Intelligence officers sometime in the late 90s early 2000s that all changed and

[00:40:06] The gloves came off. Hmm and particularly they started coming off as NATO started to expand

[00:40:15] Closer to Russia's borders

[00:40:17] and

[00:40:19] And Ukraine started having its orange movement and things like that

[00:40:22] These these types of things started happening much more frequently as if they were trying to signal to us

[00:40:28] Hey, you're making us mad knock it off. Hmm and

[00:40:32] We didn't seem to get the message and we just kept doing what we were doing

[00:40:35] And so this kind of thing is escalating you also have to look at

[00:40:41] Like Cuba was the first place these were reported although there were previous

[00:40:46] Reports going back to 2012 and even 20

[00:40:50] 2009 hmm, you know, we were getting close to Cuba. We'd opened up an embassy

[00:40:54] We were getting close to them and then boom this thing happens in Cuba. And what do we do?

[00:40:59] You know, we really pull back from Cuba and you have to ask was that the intended effect?

[00:41:05] Hmm again speculation

[00:41:07] Correlation is not causation and I have to say that

[00:41:12] The intelligence community took a very deep look at this and saw all sorts of data

[00:41:16] I didn't see and they reached the conclusion that there's nothing here and

[00:41:20] I'm sure they had good reasons for concluding that

[00:41:24] But I still in my heart of hearts suspect. There's really something going on. Well, yeah, there's similarities to

[00:41:31] What you described in your book with the way Charles Gandhi was treated

[00:41:36] It took about six or seven years before he was sort of taken seriously

[00:41:40] And I think it took the efforts of President Ronald Reagan to actually kind of get things going if I'm right and remember, right?

[00:41:47] That's what happened. Hmm. So it doesn't sort of bode

[00:41:50] Well, really historically do you have any thoughts or insight why the US government has been in its messaging kind of playing down?

[00:41:57] Havana syndrome because clearly there are a lot of victims and they are officers

[00:42:01] Respected officers like mark from the CIA. Is there any kind of reasoning do you think that might be there playing it down?

[00:42:08] Yes, I think there are multiple reasons

[00:42:11] reason number one is this

[00:42:13] Technologically falls into the very sophisticated edge of science kind of stuff

[00:42:20] And Americans have this arrogance that well if we can't do it, no one can do it

[00:42:25] yeah, and

[00:42:28] That's I have seen that over and over again. We call it technology arrogance

[00:42:33] and

[00:42:34] You know the less knowledgeable people are about technology the more arrogant they are

[00:42:39] You know

[00:42:40] If you went inside the intelligence community

[00:42:42] you saw that the report said there was not unanimity on that opinion that there's nothing here and

[00:42:49] I

[00:42:51] suspect that the agencies that

[00:42:54] Didn't agree were the more technical ones who had deeper scientific insights into the art of the possible

[00:43:01] And the ones that concluded there's nothing here. We're on the less technical side

[00:43:07] and I've seen this happen over and over again, so I think number one is that

[00:43:11] The science is is cutting-edge and way out there

[00:43:15] And people just can't get their head around it and the people who ultimately make the decisions

[00:43:20] About whether there's something there or not. I'm not scientists or technologists

[00:43:23] they're like history majors and policy wonks if I can reveal a little bit of a bias being a technologist and

[00:43:30] I'm not saying that's wrong that ultimately they shouldn't be in charge

[00:43:34] But the people who make the final vote don't understand science and technology. They have to rely on their people

[00:43:41] So that's number one

[00:43:44] Number two is I suspect and I think there was some integrity to the investigation that went on

[00:43:50] That there was a fair amount of evidence

[00:43:53] weighing against the idea of a

[00:43:56] Russian involvement or foreign power

[00:43:59] I can't speculate on what that evidence was but I can tell you how they reach their conclusions

[00:44:05] They they come up with two hypotheses and then they look for evidence that supports or contradicts

[00:44:11] Each of them and then they go look for evidence on both sides

[00:44:16] Like you say, okay, if it were the Russians, what would we expect to see?

[00:44:22] What have what kinds of evidence would do you expect to see from all the kinds of collection that we have?

[00:44:27] And again, I'm not going to go into what that is

[00:44:29] It's just call it collection and what would we not expect to see and then on the other side if it weren't true

[00:44:36] What would we expect and what we don't and they I'm sure they went through that process or what we call competing

[00:44:42] Hypothesis like a science experiment really and they put good people on it and they rigorously went through it and they just didn't see enough

[00:44:49] there

[00:44:50] to

[00:44:52] To say anything. However, if you read the fine print of their report, they did say that

[00:44:58] There remain a few dozen cases that we really can't explain

[00:45:03] That that we think there is something there but we can't explain it but on the other hand

[00:45:09] We think it's unlikely a foreign power did it?

[00:45:11] So that's number two. So number one the science is way out there number two

[00:45:17] They had good evidence to suggest that wasn't the case that there was a Russian zapping our officers

[00:45:24] But number three is a little less

[00:45:28] wholesome and it gets back into

[00:45:31] Why do we believe anything that we believe?

[00:45:34] Yeah

[00:45:36] Daniel Kahneman got the Nobel Prize, you know for his work on cognitive biases and it boils down to we believe what we expect to

[00:45:42] be true and

[00:45:43] what we want to be true and

[00:45:46] We don't believe what we don't expect and what we don't want

[00:45:49] and

[00:45:51] My belief is that the the folks who came to that conclusion

[00:45:56] consciously or unconsciously

[00:45:59] Did not want to believe it was true

[00:46:02] Because if it were true think about the consequences

[00:46:05] How could this be happening?

[00:46:07] how could we put our officers in harm's way and not know that they're being zapped and not be able to stop it how

[00:46:15] Competent are we you know, that would not have looked good for them or their agency. The optics would have been very bad and

[00:46:24] so that's definitely what happened in the

[00:46:27] Spy in Moscow station incident. That's exactly what happened

[00:46:32] And you know, it's it's so interesting

[00:46:35] It's like in politics

[00:46:37] we have political views and we have friends that have

[00:46:40] Completely different political views and we really like these people. We believe they're extremely bright very educated and for the life of us

[00:46:48] We can't figure out

[00:46:50] How they believe what they believe?

[00:46:52] Yep, and that's the way it is, you know, and so

[00:46:56] The people who receives conclusions that there's nothing there they're not bad people they're not unprofessional people. They're just human

[00:47:03] And I can think of another reason go ahead. I can think of another reason. Yeah

[00:47:10] the

[00:47:12] There are symptoms. They're real symptoms by people and they're unexplained. We cannot explain them. So

[00:47:20] There is a

[00:47:22] Question there is an uncertainty in the air if we say to the public

[00:47:27] We don't know what's happening. There are people are affected. We don't know why we don't know what's happening

[00:47:32] Then people are going to be scared. Yeah of being deployed overseas

[00:47:38] for all those

[00:47:40] jobs and

[00:47:42] Already we have a decrease. We have people that we we have a

[00:47:47] Decrease of people applying for those kinds of

[00:47:51] job for the government overseas and they don't want

[00:47:55] those

[00:47:56] numbers to decrease because

[00:47:58] It's already it's already there. So then they won't find anybody anymore to work overseas because of that

[00:48:06] So if we downplay it, there's nothing we don't have to worry about anything then we can keep

[00:48:12] Those jobs and we can and the people won't be afraid to be deployed overseas

[00:48:18] That's my I agree. I think that is another one of those things whether that's conscious or not

[00:48:25] I'd like to think it isn't a conscious consideration

[00:48:28] but I do think that that's a factor and

[00:48:32] I mean, you know, the last thing you have to say is give credit to our opponent

[00:48:36] They're really really good at this stuff

[00:48:38] They're really really good at this stuff

[00:48:41] They're going to great lengths to hide what they're doing if they're doing it

[00:48:45] I mean, they don't just do things every time like if in my book

[00:48:49] I talked about the Russian strategy of layers of what we call hides when they do something

[00:48:54] they don't just protect it like when I'm saying with a protective cover that makes it look like a

[00:49:00] Telephoto lens on a camera or something which would be a good example of how to do it

[00:49:05] They they don't just use one they have three four five or six or seven and you have to peel back all those layers and

[00:49:11] not to get to it in the case of the

[00:49:13] Moscow Embassy implant that we talked about in the book

[00:49:16] There were 18 different layers that had to be peeled back to get to it, you know

[00:49:21] So they don't just do things but they go to great lengths to hide them, you know, so

[00:49:26] Those are the reasons I think that the government is doing what the government's doing

[00:49:31] Yeah quick question on the

[00:49:35] employers liability area

[00:49:37] And people being afraid of going overseas

[00:49:39] I was talking to lawyer Mark Zaid who represents some of the victims of Havana syndrome

[00:49:44] and he was telling me that apparently

[00:49:47] Personnel who've worked for the American government in Russia

[00:49:51] Have come down with other symptoms and potentially have even developed sort of cancers and I think he said

[00:49:58] Parkinson's and I don't know if any of you either of you have any insight in any of that because that was quite shocking

[00:50:03] when I heard that oh, no, I'm quite aware of that and

[00:50:07] There were investigations done and there was a study at John Hopkins on this

[00:50:11] What are the biological effects of all this microwave radiation that's hitting and there were reports of similar kinds of symptoms including?

[00:50:18] We know a woman John Le Chavette's wife

[00:50:21] Who had a miscarriage and she said a lot of women who were stationed in the embassy at that time had miscarriages

[00:50:27] And

[00:50:29] So there were deep suspicions that the microwaves there were causing problems

[00:50:38] What I can tell you is that

[00:50:40] Gandhi did measure the power levels of those microwaves and he thought he knew what they were doing and how they were doing it

[00:50:46] He didn't detect pulses. Mm-hmm, but then he couldn't have necessarily with the equipment he had at the time

[00:50:52] I think the jury's out on whether the microwave flooding of the Moscow Embassy that went on for at least 40

[00:50:59] probably more like 50 60 years

[00:51:02] What the health effects of that were the power levels of Gandhi recorded?

[00:51:06] We're not that different from what we experience every day in our homes and you know with cell

[00:51:12] Energy and things like that

[00:51:15] But I want to emphasize that it isn't just the power. It's how the power is delivered

[00:51:21] You could cut way down on the power absolute, you know power over time meaning joules and you could

[00:51:28] You could have very high watts which is energy per unit time and you can do a lot of damage

[00:51:34] Yeah, obviously the Russians are doing research into directed energy direct energy weapons

[00:51:39] Is anybody else doing any research into that and how should we say how advanced do you think the Russians are with direct energy?

[00:51:46] Weapons research. Well, it's no secret that we have our own directed energy programs that have been declassified

[00:51:53] There are many different kinds

[00:51:56] We wrote this book recently called the new science of UFOs

[00:51:59] Where we show how you can use a laser beam to propel a flying saucer

[00:52:04] So it looks like it's levitating and that's been done. NASA has done that. Yeah

[00:52:08] I mean there have been all kinds of it's no secret that the army has recently deployed

[00:52:13] High at high energy lasers to zap drones and they're doing similar things with microwave energy

[00:52:21] and

[00:52:22] The Chinese for sure pretty much every major power is doing something in directed energy

[00:52:31] Probably the top leaders in it I would put the Russians first

[00:52:35] sir, we're in there and the Chinese are in there and

[00:52:39] Is there any relationship this technology to some of the you know, it's a crowd dispersal technology

[00:52:44] It uses sort of like sound waves and things. Yes, there is there are microwave weapons that are used or non-lethal

[00:52:52] so-called non-lethal weapons and the

[00:52:54] Microwaves heat up your skin and heat up the free nerve endings in your skin and you feel like you're on fire

[00:53:01] it's been described to me as

[00:53:04] Intensely painful and uncomfortable and like you want to get out of there. There have been other efforts

[00:53:11] Again I'm gonna pick my words carefully

[00:53:13] Remember this microwave hearing effect that I was telling you about

[00:53:17] You can actually modulate that with the human voice so you could point a microwave at someone and in the middle of their head

[00:53:24] They would hear this weird voice saying, you know, God commands you to put down your arms Wow

[00:53:30] Wow

[00:53:32] This sort of thing has been done. It's also been done with lasers with pulse lasers. Everything I said about microwaves is also true of lasers

[00:53:40] Which is just another form of electromagnetic energy. So there have been

[00:53:45] efforts in directed energy that go

[00:53:49] The kind of benign uses are wireless power

[00:53:54] To they're used in space right now to get power from point A to point B

[00:53:59] they're used for

[00:54:02] Communication very high power lasers to communicate over very long distances maybe through space

[00:54:07] They're loose for weapons purposes to heat things up

[00:54:10] they're used for

[00:54:12] crowd deterrence and

[00:54:15] Anti-personnel, so there's a whole range of uses of this technology. Thank you very much for that

[00:54:19] Is there anything else important that you would either of you would like to add before we wrap up today?

[00:54:25] Dr. Gilbert

[00:54:28] Well, I would suggest the people that are going to listen to us they're going to say oh I have that I have dizziness

[00:54:35] I have headaches

[00:54:36] Maybe I have having a syndrome and we we've been contacted by a lot of people saying

[00:54:42] Oh, I have having a syndrome because because or you know, it's called really now

[00:54:47] anomalous health incidents a HI

[00:54:51] And I'm and we're saying no

[00:54:54] So to those people that are listening to us, I want to say there are different

[00:55:00] diagnoses other than

[00:55:02] Havana syndrome or anomalous health incidents. They're close

[00:55:06] There's close the symptoms are close it but they're not the same

[00:55:12] So one of them I'm going to list when to I'm going to list four of them that are similar

[00:55:17] But yet different so that people will know

[00:55:21] There's one called

[00:55:23] PPPd a triple PD. It's persistent

[00:55:26] postural

[00:55:28] perceptual dizziness and

[00:55:30] People with PPPD complain of chronic dizziness on steadiness, but they don't have

[00:55:38] Ringing in their ears and they don't have headaches and usually this is triggered by a viral infection or by a head trauma

[00:55:47] Now some other people could have vestibular migraines

[00:55:51] people with vestibular migraines

[00:55:53] The it's migraine headaches. They it can experience balance problems

[00:55:59] But the people with vestibular migraines don't have problems perceiving those kind of linear

[00:56:06] acceleration both horizontally and vertically

[00:56:10] So no damage of the otolith organs

[00:56:12] Now there is also people having traumatic brain injury

[00:56:17] They have a lot of head traumas and maybe they can have radiological finding at the MRI. You can see

[00:56:25] damage at the MRI and

[00:56:27] This will not be Havana syndrome would be different than other people could have functional

[00:56:34] Neurological disorders to various neurological disorders, but those symptoms won't appear

[00:56:40] When a person that gets in the room and disappear when the person we leaves the room

[00:56:47] Directly would be directional. So

[00:56:51] So I want to say there there are so many there and there are some people that are

[00:56:56] Stressed out they have all those symptoms. They're very stressed out and they will get more

[00:57:01] symptoms because of the stress

[00:57:03] And but those would be due directly to stress and it's not going to be Havana syndrome

[00:57:09] so

[00:57:10] there are a whole bunch of

[00:57:12] symptoms that are close to

[00:57:15] Havana syndrome, but they're not Havana syndrome. So good because there there's so many people you're going to have so many people that have

[00:57:22] Dizziness and and and headaches and they say oh, yeah. Yeah, that's me. That's me. I need to call this doctor

[00:57:28] So no, it's not we've got to be careful. It's it's only

[00:57:32] specific a specific cluster of symptoms where the specific

[00:57:38] Difficulty perceiving linear accelerations, that's what I wanted to say. Thank you. I just what that's excellent because

[00:57:45] We did get a lot of that and it speaks to one of the problems in getting to the truth

[00:57:50] which is a whole lot more than a couple hundred people have come forward and said oh I've been affected and

[00:57:57] it's likely that a fair number of those were not and

[00:58:03] For the reasons, dr. Chris said maybe they had other

[00:58:06] Related issues or maybe this whole business of mass hysteria

[00:58:11] I don't really think that's a major factor here

[00:58:15] But we can't completely rule it out in some cases where people like

[00:58:20] There's a famous syndrome in first-year medical students where they come down with every ailment. They're studying

[00:58:27] Right, you know and there can be some of that right that and we pay

[00:58:33] Hyper vigilance to certain symptoms that otherwise we'd ignore and so that's what makes this thing

[00:58:38] So difficult is there's noise in the system

[00:58:41] they're probably people who've come forward and said they've been affected and they really haven't and

[00:58:47] So that's what this conference that dr. Chris was talking about. They're trying to come up with some differentiators

[00:58:54] What do we think is for sure real and what do we think is, you know, maybe not and

[00:59:00] the one thing is this

[00:59:02] Autolith damage that seems to be characteristic. Although that can be circular reasoning to you

[00:59:11] So that's the confounding thing is at the end of the day

[00:59:16] we know a lot less than we do know and

[00:59:21] We'd sure like to know more and my worry at the end of the day is we're not doing enough

[00:59:26] To investigate when we should be I mean even if it turns out that there's nothing here. I think we should be doing more

[00:59:34] than we are doing to

[00:59:36] Do everything we can to help those officers who put their lives on the line for their country would definitely I mean

[00:59:42] Ultimately that comes down to respect for people who work for you

[00:59:45] That's right and more respect for them than the optics of your you or your organization

[00:59:51] Well, I'll wrap us up unless there's anything else either of you want to add yes

[00:59:58] Go for it go for it go for it

[01:00:00] practical advice

[01:00:01] To people who think they've been they're exposed to have an a syndrome

[01:00:07] What do they do? I asked that question to the specialists and

[01:00:12] Only one thing to do if you think you're exposed is leave the room right away. Yeah and

[01:00:19] Seek medical advice as soon as possible the longer you wait the more difficult it is to be treated

[01:00:26] So as soon as there's a practical symptom new

[01:00:29] Symptom that happens seek medical advice right away. Thank you. Yeah, I wouldn't put a lot of stock in tinfoil hats by the way

[01:00:37] We tried on that when we were very active in this and we wondered whether maybe we would attract some attention

[01:00:43] We started trying on our various

[01:00:46] Cooking pots to see if they would fit, you know

[01:00:51] Do you well that that sort of feeds in a bit is there do you think a defense against this kind of stuff? Yes

[01:00:58] I think there is

[01:00:59] Shielding if it's electromagnetic radiation and shielding would definitely help

[01:01:04] I mean if a lot of these things happen through windows

[01:01:07] It's because windows don't block microwaves as much as say brick or concrete or you know

[01:01:14] even drywall

[01:01:17] You know in layers so shielding would be one

[01:01:21] but coming up with detectors so that you could detect it instantly and then get out of there would be another and

[01:01:29] Whether or not you could actually put something over your head and ears that would protect it is definitely possible

[01:01:35] You know, I can think of it. I was kind of joking about the tinfoil hat in the pot, but in reality

[01:01:41] If you look at the physics of it

[01:01:44] Yeah, you could you could do some shielding if you you know

[01:01:47] Put a metal shield over your head if if it like happened, but I think I think dr

[01:01:52] Chris's idea of getting out of there as soon as possible

[01:01:55] the the

[01:01:57] Troubling part is sometimes the damage can be caused very quickly

[01:02:01] Like even if you experience it and you get out of the room instantly and you reduce it you Mills

[01:02:06] You still may have some residual damage. Yeah. Yeah, but the best way is really to run out

[01:02:11] She's right

[01:02:16] Yeah, I think the phrase is get off the X I think that's the phrase they like to use get out of dodge

[01:02:22] Excellent well, thank you very much for both of your time today where can listeners find out more about you and your work?

[01:02:28] We both have blogs on psychology today

[01:02:31] Mine is long fuse big bang. Mine is just just google. Dr. Chris Gilbert

[01:02:37] For psychology today and then they'll find me and then I have a website dr. Hassel teen calm and my website is

[01:02:45] Dr. Like doctor Chris Gilbert calm and you can read our latest book the new science of UFOs. Yes

[01:02:54] New insight into an old mystery. Yeah, it sounds very interesting

[01:02:57] I must have a read that and maybe get you back on to be interesting to hear because I when I was a pretty sneaky

[01:03:02] How we snuck that pitch in on you? I like it. No when I was a teenager

[01:03:05] I was a big fan of the X files. Oh, yeah

[01:03:08] Yeah, we're not coming down on the side of saying yeah aliens have invaded earth

[01:03:12] But what we do in the book is we just go into great detail of all the scientific possibilities

[01:03:17] Yeah, and we evaluate them. Oh, excellent. Excellent. Well, it sounds very good

[01:03:21] Well, thank you both very much for your time today, and I hope to catch you again

[01:03:25] Thank you, thank you for having us Chris, thanks for listening. This is secrets and spies