S8 Ep43: Espresso Martini: Plot to kill Zelensky, Russian sabotage plots, and Chinese hacking.

[00:00:04] Secrets and Spies presents Espresso Martini with Chris Carr and Matt Fulton.

[00:00:10] Hello everybody and welcome to Espresso Martini. Matt, how are you?

[00:00:30] Howdy Chris, how everyone? I am good. Good to go. Chas'd up today. Let's do this thing. How are you?

[00:00:36] Cool. Yeah, I'm good. It's a bit warmer in London today than normal.

[00:00:40] And it's always just upon a year where I'm like, I feel really hot.

[00:00:43] And I'm like, God, it's going to only supposedly get hotter.

[00:00:46] And I'm like, am I going to be able to cope? You know, I've always, it's that weird point of the year where I'm like,

[00:00:50] shit, I can't even go with the weather now. What am I going to be like in a couple of months time?

[00:00:53] So we'll see. Get on. I felt very hot today. So what's the temperature?

[00:00:58] Off the top, I had to have no idea at this point, but I can soon find out. Hang on.

[00:01:03] What is the temperature? It's an odd while you're while you're looking that up.

[00:01:07] I say it's an odd thing with like heat and stuff in the summer times over there because

[00:01:12] so like the summer that I spent over there, I got over there around now.

[00:01:16] I was there from like May to like the end of July, right?

[00:01:20] And it was odd because for I think it never really got hotter than like 80 or something,

[00:01:28] which I think is like about like 30 Celsius, I think.

[00:01:31] Yeah. Well, today it's 24, which is 75. Okay.

[00:01:35] So it's kind of muggy.

[00:01:37] So that's the problem in England, it gets very muggy.

[00:01:39] Right. So I remember like, so I worked for, I interned for a member of the House of Commons.

[00:01:45] It was like me and three middle-aged like English ladies in this like old office up in like

[00:01:50] Norman Shaw North there. So learned how to make a very good cup of tea from them.

[00:01:55] But I remember one of them was like, yeah, it was like, it was like 80 degrees out.

[00:01:59] And she was like, oh, it's a heat wave.

[00:02:01] And I'm thinking like that's just summertime. That's just nice.

[00:02:05] You know, like that's not a heat wave.

[00:02:07] But then to the same point, like I would get on the tube coming home or whatever.

[00:02:12] And there's no there's no air conditioning or anything down there and like sweat.

[00:02:17] Like, yeah. And I'm in I'm in like a full suit, like sweating my balls off on the train.

[00:02:23] And sometimes you would you would get luck because those trains were packed too.

[00:02:27] Sometimes you would get lucky and you could like sort of hang out

[00:02:31] where like that rear window is. Yeah.

[00:02:33] The door going into the next carriage.

[00:02:35] And you it was like a dog like sticking your head out of like the window going down

[00:02:38] the highway like trying to get. Yeah, that was that was weird.

[00:02:42] Yeah. Like like like sweating my ass off feeling like, oh my god, it's so hot

[00:02:47] and so oppressive. And it's like for here, it's just like a nice summer day.

[00:02:51] I think that's because you guys don't really have air conditioning

[00:02:54] in many places because you haven't you haven't needed it.

[00:02:56] No, it's changing.

[00:02:58] Certainly the new trains have air conditioning.

[00:03:02] And I private houses less so offices.

[00:03:05] Yes, but private houses not so much that might change over the next few years.

[00:03:09] I've certainly said to my wife a few times each year, I'm like,

[00:03:12] if we go for another summer like this, we're getting air conditioning.

[00:03:15] And there's like, no, we're not. Yes, we are.

[00:03:18] Yeah, I personally am in the pro air conditioning camp,

[00:03:21] but then trying to find one that's nice and quiet.

[00:03:25] That's a different matter.

[00:03:26] But there we go.

[00:03:27] Yeah, I know like it's I remember talking about this last summer too

[00:03:31] when you had you had a couple days that were like up in the high 90s.

[00:03:35] So that's that's hot even for for here.

[00:03:38] But I mean, here anyway, it's I mean, yeah, it it it sucks when you get,

[00:03:44] you know, like a week or two of that in a row in like the middle of August

[00:03:47] or something, but it's not it's not life threatening because you can get out of it.

[00:03:51] And that's I guess not the case for many places over there.

[00:03:53] No, no, the hottest I've ever been though was actually in New York.

[00:03:58] Was it July 2013 or something?

[00:04:01] It was so hot and going on the subway, it was like going into an oven.

[00:04:05] I have never experienced such sort of volume of heat and the air being so thick

[00:04:11] and he like, oh my God, and somehow you survive it somehow you survive it.

[00:04:15] But there we go.

[00:04:15] Yeah, I remember one summer like walking around DC.

[00:04:19] Yeah.

[00:04:20] Like, yeah, like downtown DC and it was like it was probably over a hundred

[00:04:25] and just like the streets were empty.

[00:04:27] Like it was it was just weird.

[00:04:29] It was weird.

[00:04:30] Yeah, that was bad.

[00:04:31] Yeah.

[00:04:31] Well, talk about hot stuff.

[00:04:32] So on today's show, on today's show, we're going to look at a failed plot

[00:04:37] to kill President Zelensky, fears of Russian sabotage in Europe,

[00:04:42] which really could heat things up in Europe.

[00:04:45] We've got spy plots being foiled in Germany and awkward talks

[00:04:49] between the US and China about vault typhoon, which is one of China's

[00:04:53] hacking operations against the West.

[00:04:56] Then we're going to move on to our Patreon only show extra shot

[00:04:59] and we're going to look at privacy concerns in the age of AI.

[00:05:02] And then we're going to turn our attention to the plot to discredit democracy

[00:05:07] and then we're going to be looking at Putin, propagandist in Russia

[00:05:10] who've been left dismayed as the US finally passes his aid to Ukraine

[00:05:14] bill and then we're going to finish up looking at the sad state of the

[00:05:17] Royal Navy, which has become a shadow of its former self after decades

[00:05:22] of successive cuts.

[00:05:23] So to listen to extra shot, you'll need to become a Patreon subscriber.

[00:05:27] Just go to the link in the show notes below and pick the

[00:05:30] subscription level that works for you or go to patreon.com

[00:05:33] forward slash secrets and spies.

[00:05:35] So Matt, I think we will start with your piece on the failed

[00:05:39] plot to kill President Zelensky in Ukraine.

[00:05:43] I'll hand it over to you.

[00:05:44] Sure.

[00:05:44] Yes.

[00:05:44] This is drawing from a New York Times article that we have here.

[00:05:47] Ukrainian security services claim to have forwarded a Russian

[00:05:50] plot to assassinate President Zelensky and other top Ukrainian

[00:05:53] military and political figures.

[00:05:55] Two Ukrainian colonels have been arrested on suspicion of treason

[00:05:57] in connection with the alleged plot.

[00:05:59] The plot allegedly involved a network of agents, including

[00:06:02] the two colonels run by Russia's FSB aimed at identifying

[00:06:06] individuals close to Zelensky security detail to take him

[00:06:09] hostage and later kill him.

[00:06:11] Other top Ukrainian officials targeted in the plot included

[00:06:14] Vasil Meliuk, head of the SBU, I think it's like

[00:06:16] internal security service and general Karyliy Obudinov, head

[00:06:20] of Ukraine's military intelligence agency, the GUR.

[00:06:23] Previous assassination attempts against Ukrainian leaders

[00:06:26] have been reported with Zelensky claiming to have been

[00:06:28] informed of more than 10 such efforts.

[00:06:30] The two accused colonels belong to the state security

[00:06:33] administration and were recruited before Russia's invasion

[00:06:36] of Ukraine in February 2022.

[00:06:38] The plot involved blocking Zelensky's movements and a

[00:06:41] multilater attack on general Boudinov.

[00:06:43] I think it included drones and rocket strikes and stuff.

[00:06:47] This was planned before Orthodox Easter.

[00:06:49] Russia has not commented on the accusations.

[00:06:51] There have been previous attacks when Ukrainian figures,

[00:06:54] including the poisoning of general Boudinov's wife and numerous

[00:06:57] assassination attempts against Zelensky, which you mentioned

[00:07:00] a bit earlier.

[00:07:01] Ukraine is believed to have been involved in the killing

[00:07:03] of pro-Kremlin voices in Russia, including a car bombing

[00:07:06] in 2022 and the assassination of a former Ukrainian

[00:07:09] lawmaker in December.

[00:07:11] Chris, what do you think?

[00:07:12] Yeah, well, I think that some in the Russian government

[00:07:14] think that they if they kill or capture Zelensky, it will

[00:07:18] result in a collapse of Ukrainian resolve.

[00:07:21] I don't know if that would be the case, but certainly killing

[00:07:24] the leader of your enemy can have a devastating effect.

[00:07:26] And we've seen that obviously with bin Laden, etc.

[00:07:29] The idea of in that kind of parlance is cutting off

[00:07:33] the head of the snake and suddenly kind of change

[00:07:35] everything.

[00:07:36] So I think if Zelensky were killed, it would definitely

[00:07:38] affect morale and it could even result in a Russian

[00:07:42] victory, but I could be wrong.

[00:07:44] Because it could also galvanize the Ukrainians and their

[00:07:47] allies because I think if Zelensky were killed, even if

[00:07:51] it was a rocket attack or whether it was like in this

[00:07:53] particular plot, whether it was one of his sort of so-called

[00:07:56] bodyguards.

[00:07:56] I just think the outrage from the international community

[00:08:00] might well change things in Ukraine's favor.

[00:08:03] Favour?

[00:08:04] I mean, Ukraine's in a pretty good position with

[00:08:06] the international community, but there have been it is

[00:08:08] wavering.

[00:08:08] Obviously, US support to bid all over the place at the

[00:08:10] moment because of House Republicans, etc.

[00:08:13] And there are some people in Europe who some governments

[00:08:16] are kind of questioning whether they can maintain

[00:08:18] things or not.

[00:08:18] And if obviously Zelensky were killed, I have a feeling

[00:08:22] it could change could change things.

[00:08:23] It would be a real game changer both for good and bad.

[00:08:27] Obviously, I do not wish Zelensky to be killed.

[00:08:30] That would be the last thing I want because I'm very,

[00:08:33] you know, I'm very impressed by Zelensky and I

[00:08:35] think I would sort of slowly already lose my faith

[00:08:39] even further in humanity if he were killed.

[00:08:42] So I don't think that would be good.

[00:08:43] And then, yeah, so the article did say, however, that

[00:08:46] there have been like 10 other foiled plots to kill Zelensky.

[00:08:49] So maybe Putin is happy now to run the risk associated

[00:08:53] with killing Zelensky.

[00:08:54] I mean, the Russians had the capability right now

[00:08:57] just to bomb the Bejesus out of the Ukrainian headquarters

[00:09:00] and kill Zelensky pretty much whenever they want.

[00:09:03] And I've always been a little bit surprised why

[00:09:06] they haven't.

[00:09:07] But again, what I was saying earlier, early in the war,

[00:09:10] you know, that might well have changed things.

[00:09:12] So I think and I don't know where this one, this particular

[00:09:14] plot was an interesting one because it seemed to be

[00:09:16] something to try and impress Putin because it was supposed

[00:09:18] to happen before his inauguration as the dictator stroke

[00:09:24] president of Russia in the fake election that just happened.

[00:09:29] And so whether there's somebody in the Russian

[00:09:31] security services who are trying to carry his favor

[00:09:33] by handing him the gift of all gifts of killing Zelensky

[00:09:38] or he could end up, you know, they could have ended up

[00:09:40] handing Putin an absolute nightmare.

[00:09:42] Who knows?

[00:09:42] Now obviously targeting the head of Ukrainian intelligence

[00:09:46] does make a very effective target and I think, you know,

[00:09:50] probably would have a devastating effect on Ukrainian

[00:09:53] intelligence operations if he were killed.

[00:09:55] And certainly his wife was targeted last year by

[00:09:57] poisoning, wasn't she?

[00:09:59] And he's still unclear whether he was the target

[00:10:02] or whether the wife was and whether it was a warning

[00:10:04] or not.

[00:10:04] So and again with him, they were planning to bomb him

[00:10:09] with rockets or drones with the Zelensky plot.

[00:10:13] So the scary thing with that one that the people

[00:10:15] who arrested for this recent plot were connected to

[00:10:19] the state security administration, which is kind

[00:10:22] of the equivalent of the US Secret Service because

[00:10:24] the state security administration is tasked

[00:10:26] with protecting diplomats and public officials.

[00:10:30] And so it's sort of yeah, it's like recruiting somebody

[00:10:33] from the US Secret Service to kind of potentially kill

[00:10:36] or kidnap the president.

[00:10:37] And that's pretty serious stuff.

[00:10:38] So thank goodness that the Ukrainian intelligence

[00:10:41] service is kind of on the case and have foiled this

[00:10:44] plot.

[00:10:45] And I just, you know, I just hope they managed to

[00:10:47] keep foiling them really because, you know, I don't

[00:10:50] think they're going to stop anytime soon, are they?

[00:10:53] No, yeah.

[00:10:54] I mean, I think next to helping Trump get back

[00:10:57] in the White House, assassinating Zelensky

[00:10:59] is probably the quickest and most cost effective

[00:11:01] way for Putin to win the war, you know.

[00:11:03] To your point, it's odd that we haven't seen more serious

[00:11:07] attempts on his life like from like the very beginning

[00:11:09] of the invasion, like he was talking about.

[00:11:12] Well, there was supposedly one that was foiled, wasn't

[00:11:14] it?

[00:11:14] It was supposed to involve Russian special services.

[00:11:16] There was, yeah, I'm not sure how much has gotten

[00:11:20] out about this.

[00:11:21] I recall looking into this a bit earlier and couldn't

[00:11:24] really find anything all that satisfactorily said

[00:11:28] I would have wanted to see.

[00:11:29] But there were some reports that believe that a Spetsnaz

[00:11:32] team tried to insert into the middle of Kiev, like right

[00:11:36] at the beginning of the war to kill Zelensky and they

[00:11:40] got into a firefight and they didn't succeed.

[00:11:43] But I remember like to be clear here, I'm not giving

[00:11:46] the Russians like advice or trying to like, you know,

[00:11:49] I'm just saying like objectively, okay, if I were them,

[00:11:55] you know, what would I do?

[00:11:57] Like I remember that video early, this is early on in the

[00:12:00] war, there was that video that Zelensky put out.

[00:12:04] It was it was him.

[00:12:05] I think Boudinov was there.

[00:12:06] The prime minister was there.

[00:12:07] The defense minister there.

[00:12:08] They were all in front of like their presidential

[00:12:10] offices that compound right in the middle of Kiev.

[00:12:12] And he was saying it was a very badass video, but he

[00:12:15] was saying like we're all still here.

[00:12:17] We're not going anywhere.

[00:12:18] And just from looking at the background, like I can,

[00:12:20] I could pinpoint on Google Maps exactly where they're

[00:12:23] standing and I'm just thinking like, I don't know,

[00:12:26] like if I'm, if I'm, again, if I'm the Russians,

[00:12:29] I would want that whole compound like flattened on

[00:12:32] the opening night of the war.

[00:12:34] You know, I probably wouldn't have even bothered

[00:12:36] sending in a Spetsnaz team.

[00:12:38] I just, yeah, just would have flattened the middle

[00:12:39] of the city and had been done with it.

[00:12:41] And I just don't know why, again, glad they didn't,

[00:12:44] but yeah, glad they didn't.

[00:12:46] And I, yeah, I don't know, I don't know

[00:12:48] why they didn't why they haven't done that.

[00:12:50] Well, during the Second Gulf War is exactly what

[00:12:52] the British and Americans attempted with a quote

[00:12:55] unquote decapitation strike against Saddam Hussein.

[00:12:58] They had intelligence at one of his palaces

[00:13:00] and obviously the intelligence turned out to be wrong.

[00:13:03] Yeah, but they door of farms.

[00:13:06] I think that was a second Gulf War.

[00:13:08] But yeah, they, they, that was like the first,

[00:13:11] one of the first operational missions for the F 117s.

[00:13:13] They flew right into Baghdad and just tried

[00:13:16] to cut them off right at the start.

[00:13:18] Yeah.

[00:13:18] And it's, yeah, obviously it's dicey territory

[00:13:20] killing world leaders and stuff.

[00:13:22] And it does make me wonder if there are serious

[00:13:25] attempts by Ukraine to potentially take out Putin.

[00:13:28] Will we see that happen?

[00:13:29] You know, well, that makes you wonder,

[00:13:31] is there some sort of a gentleman's agreement,

[00:13:33] you know, between the two security services at least,

[00:13:36] you know, we won't make serious attempts

[00:13:38] at senior Russian officials.

[00:13:39] If you don't make serious attempts at,

[00:13:42] at ours at least, that's how, I think that's

[00:13:45] how the U.S. or how the CIA has, has operated a bit.

[00:13:48] You know, we don't, we don't plan assassinations

[00:13:51] of foreign, of foreign leaders or anything

[00:13:53] because we don't want them to attempt that against us.

[00:13:56] Yeah.

[00:13:57] You know?

[00:13:57] And yeah.

[00:13:58] Yeah.

[00:13:58] Things, sadly it feels like certainly in some situations

[00:14:01] the gloves are slowly coming off

[00:14:02] because obviously with the Havana,

[00:14:03] Schiessingerium stuff.

[00:14:05] Yeah.

[00:14:05] Those are attacks against U.S. personnel, etc.

[00:14:08] It's sort of getting into a new very dangerous time

[00:14:11] really, I hope.

[00:14:12] Yeah.

[00:14:13] Well, I think also like, you know, what would,

[00:14:16] what would his death, what, what would Zelensky's

[00:14:19] death accomplish on the ground like for the war?

[00:14:22] And I think it would absolutely make him a martyr

[00:14:24] and you know, enrage, totally enrage the West

[00:14:29] for a time but that would pass.

[00:14:32] And at the end of the day Zelensky wouldn't,

[00:14:34] wouldn't be there especially in Budinov.

[00:14:36] Like the GRU has been,

[00:14:37] I'm sorry, the GUR has been incredibly effective

[00:14:43] over the course of this war.

[00:14:44] Like from an operational standpoint,

[00:14:46] that's a huge blow.

[00:14:47] You know, it's like that, it's like the equivalent

[00:14:49] of taking out like Kossim Soleimani for the Iranians.

[00:14:52] Yeah.

[00:14:52] You know?

[00:14:53] I mean, so yeah, Zelensky would be a martyr.

[00:14:56] It would enrage us for a time

[00:14:58] but Zelensky has proven himself to be a uniquely

[00:15:03] unifying and charismatic leader

[00:15:06] that you can't just easily replace.

[00:15:09] You know, like he's, he is,

[00:15:11] yeah, he has really been Ukraine's best advocate

[00:15:14] to come here to Congress

[00:15:15] and explain, you know, why it's important to support Ukraine

[00:15:19] to call up Mike Johnson and set him straight.

[00:15:23] I think that's probably a lot more effective

[00:15:24] than Biden trying to do it himself.

[00:15:26] You know?

[00:15:27] It would be sort of like,

[00:15:29] I don't know, it would be sort of like to me

[00:15:31] like if the Nazis assassinated Churchill in 1940.

[00:15:35] You know, like yeah, Churchill would be a martyr.

[00:15:37] You know, the people would be up in arms like,

[00:15:41] but then like, okay, let's say Lord Halifax takes his place

[00:15:45] and his position is the best thing to do for the country

[00:15:47] is to negotiate peace with the Germans.

[00:15:50] You know, history would have been very different

[00:15:51] and that's all that what it took at that

[00:15:54] was just to get rid of Churchill, you know?

[00:15:56] So it just shows these sort of so-called decapitation strikes

[00:16:00] can have a massive effect

[00:16:02] and so I think nothing's ever off the table with Putin.

[00:16:06] The Russians are brazen enough to do something like that.

[00:16:08] I mean, we've seen it with assassinations

[00:16:10] and on, you know, European and UK soil.

[00:16:13] You can't get much more brazen than that really.

[00:16:16] It's, you know, I wouldn't put it past Putin to attempt it

[00:16:20] but I think he would only do it if it suited him

[00:16:23] and he felt that the risk was worth the reward.

[00:16:26] So, you know, maybe later-

[00:16:28] It is objectively speaking from his point.

[00:16:31] I don't see why it's not.

[00:16:32] Well, this is it.

[00:16:33] I think as we get closer to the US election,

[00:16:37] I have very, I don't know,

[00:16:39] I have very pessimistic views about the future of Ukraine

[00:16:42] at the moment because I think I'm still convinced

[00:16:45] if Trump wins, because I'm not convinced he will at this point

[00:16:49] but it's certainly starting to feel like it could happen.

[00:16:52] I'm not, I would never rule it out.

[00:16:53] Trump could win and I think it'd be a total disaster

[00:16:56] but all that aside, for me,

[00:16:59] I think it'd be a disaster more for Ukraine

[00:17:01] than anything because I think, you know,

[00:17:03] it'd be very hard to convince the Trump administration

[00:17:06] to give more aid to Ukraine.

[00:17:09] I think Trump probably would cut ties

[00:17:11] unless there was something clearly in it for him politically

[00:17:15] to continue on with it.

[00:17:16] And so that is the point.

[00:17:18] So, I think it's around then.

[00:17:22] Should Trump win or lose?

[00:17:23] That's when I think there might be a calculus in Putin's mind

[00:17:27] that it could be worth the risk to take out Zelensky.

[00:17:31] I can see that logic.

[00:17:32] If Trump loses and you're looking at another four years

[00:17:36] of Biden in office and him not, Biden not worrying

[00:17:40] about reelection and being like,

[00:17:42] no, I'm gonna beat the fucking Russians in Ukraine

[00:17:45] no matter what, you know, we got another four years to do it.

[00:17:48] Especially if, you know, Democrats pull a hat trick

[00:17:51] and take control of the House

[00:17:53] and keep control of the Senate.

[00:17:55] There's nothing standing in his way.

[00:17:57] You know, yeah, I certainly,

[00:17:59] yeah, I hadn't thought of that before

[00:18:00] but I certainly see that logic in Putin's mind of,

[00:18:04] yeah, let me just get rid of Zelensky at that point.

[00:18:06] Yeah. And I hope I'm wrong.

[00:18:08] I hope I'm wrong.

[00:18:09] I hope, my ambition is so pathetic

[00:18:12] but in 10 or 20 years time,

[00:18:14] I'd love to be going to the Royal Festival Hall in London

[00:18:17] and President Zelensky's doing a live talk

[00:18:20] about his biography of being the president of Ukraine

[00:18:23] and I don't know some leadership book

[00:18:25] and we could all learn from his leadership

[00:18:27] and I'd like to meet him.

[00:18:28] That's what I would like to happen.

[00:18:30] You know, maybe not necessarily in 20 years,

[00:18:32] maybe sooner than that

[00:18:33] but I would just like to see him continue on

[00:18:37] to a nice old age because it's,

[00:18:39] for me personally, like I find,

[00:18:41] I don't know, I find Zelensky very rare breed of politician

[00:18:45] who's quite inspirational

[00:18:46] because I feel like I don't feel in my lifetime

[00:18:49] has really been an inspirational politician.

[00:18:52] Right. You know.

[00:18:54] Churchill comparisons are totally warranted.

[00:18:56] Yeah, definitely. Definitely.

[00:18:58] And obviously he'll be remembered in that way

[00:18:59] at least for Ukrainians.

[00:19:02] Definitely.

[00:19:03] And obviously Churchill's far from perfect

[00:19:05] but in the English sort of English psyche

[00:19:10] is that the right way to put it?

[00:19:11] But certainly, you know, traditionally speaking

[00:19:14] Churchill was considered the man who

[00:19:16] if he weren't there,

[00:19:17] World War II would have gone a very different way

[00:19:20] and I agree with that.

[00:19:21] I think if Churchill was the right man at the right time

[00:19:25] was he a saint? No, far from it

[00:19:27] and he made difficult decisions that obviously nowadays

[00:19:30] we can, is it backseat quarterbacking?

[00:19:33] Is that the expression or armchair quarterback?

[00:19:35] Monday morning.

[00:19:36] That's so you're confusing.

[00:19:38] So there's backseat driving and Monday morning quarterback.

[00:19:41] There we go.

[00:19:42] So there we go.

[00:19:43] Yeah.

[00:19:44] So I blended those two together

[00:19:45] but it's very easy these days to do both of those things

[00:19:50] and refight World War II

[00:19:52] and think we could have done it differently.

[00:19:54] So, you know, but I mean like one of the interesting choices

[00:19:59] one of the dilemmas Churchill faced once

[00:20:01] that I didn't know a bit about this.

[00:20:03] I was working on something a few years ago

[00:20:05] that touched upon this

[00:20:06] but have you ever heard of Merzell Cabir

[00:20:08] which is the port?

[00:20:10] Yep.

[00:20:10] Where the French fleet were.

[00:20:11] Yeah.

[00:20:12] And is it Algeria?

[00:20:12] Is it Algeria?

[00:20:13] I've lost track now.

[00:20:14] It's yeah.

[00:20:14] Yeah.

[00:20:15] Yeah.

[00:20:16] Yeah.

[00:20:16] Yeah.

[00:20:17] Merzell Cabir.

[00:20:17] So the French fleet.

[00:20:18] So basically when France fell,

[00:20:21] the French fleet were

[00:20:23] the majority of their warships were at Merzell Cabir

[00:20:26] and the British were trying desperately to persuade

[00:20:29] Admiral Darlin, the head of the French Navy

[00:20:31] to basically give French warships to the British

[00:20:36] to the Allies.

[00:20:36] Well that posed a serious threat to Malta and Gibraltar

[00:20:40] and if they had gotten into the North Atlantic

[00:20:42] to those shipping lanes.

[00:20:45] Yeah, they were so advanced

[00:20:46] that had they got into German hands

[00:20:48] those ships could have been a massive game changer.

[00:20:50] So Britain from a logical point of view was saying,

[00:20:53] look, let us, you know,

[00:20:54] we'll have French sailors on them

[00:20:55] but let us take them over so they can be safe

[00:20:58] and part of helping liberate France.

[00:21:00] But Darlin, you know,

[00:21:02] classic English French antagonism back then

[00:21:05] and Darlin really hated the British

[00:21:06] because his great-grandfather

[00:21:07] was killed at the Battle of Trafalgar.

[00:21:09] So you can see that was a bit awkward

[00:21:12] when the British Royal Navy turned to us

[00:21:14] and say, hey Admiral Darlin,

[00:21:15] let us take over your ship.

[00:21:17] Different circumstances.

[00:21:18] Yeah.

[00:21:18] But sure.

[00:21:18] Yeah.

[00:21:19] But sometimes you have to put your personal grievance aside

[00:21:21] for the quote-unquote greater good

[00:21:23] and Darlin didn't do that.

[00:21:25] He dithered and dithered

[00:21:26] and it became so dangerous that Churchill

[00:21:29] and the Royal Navy had decided,

[00:21:31] basically realized that there's only one other choice.

[00:21:34] If we can't take these ships,

[00:21:35] we're going to have to destroy them.

[00:21:36] And that's exactly what they did.

[00:21:38] I think the Royal Navy came

[00:21:39] and blockaded Merzel Kabeer

[00:21:41] and tried to negotiate with the French extensively

[00:21:43] with that with him to like,

[00:21:45] no, please come over

[00:21:47] and like fired warning shots and stuff.

[00:21:48] And like, we're going to kill you all

[00:21:50] if you don't join us now

[00:21:51] and they just wouldn't do it.

[00:21:52] No, they wouldn't do it.

[00:21:52] And so in the end,

[00:21:53] they got those ships mostly got destroyed

[00:21:55] or damaged pretty severely,

[00:21:57] one or two survived.

[00:21:58] But it's just one of those terrible moral dilemmas

[00:22:01] that war brings you to

[00:22:02] where suddenly you have to bomb the Navy

[00:22:04] of your allies

[00:22:05] because those ships pose a threat to you.

[00:22:08] And that's the kind of stuff

[00:22:10] that you have to deal with every day in a war.

[00:22:12] Yeah.

[00:22:12] And so it's not easy, you know?

[00:22:15] Say it.

[00:22:16] You know, I'm purely speculating here.

[00:22:19] I haven't spoken to anyone or read anything

[00:22:23] that would suggest this,

[00:22:24] but I would bet that our JSOC,

[00:22:27] the Joint Special Operations Command

[00:22:29] has some advisory or contingency kind of involvement

[00:22:34] in Zelensky's close protection detail.

[00:22:38] Yeah.

[00:22:38] I mean, JSOC has some like

[00:22:43] like when Biden went to Israel

[00:22:45] after right after October 7th

[00:22:47] or in trips where, you know,

[00:22:48] presidents have gone into Iraq

[00:22:51] or Afghanistan or something.

[00:22:53] JSOC has been on the ground with the Secret Service

[00:22:57] to sort of force multiplier

[00:22:59] to sort of help if things really go sideways.

[00:23:02] There's also

[00:23:03] this isn't classified.

[00:23:04] You can Google this

[00:23:05] and it's out there,

[00:23:06] but there's a program called

[00:23:08] it's got,

[00:23:09] it's called Power Geyser.

[00:23:10] And it was,

[00:23:11] it was at least it was code name Power Geyser.

[00:23:15] But it came up a bit in conversation

[00:23:17] right at the start of COVID.

[00:23:19] Basically, Power Geyser says that

[00:23:21] if something happens to the Secret Service's

[00:23:24] presidential protection division, right?

[00:23:26] So like if they are hit to the extent

[00:23:29] that they're no longer operationally effective,

[00:23:31] whether that's through an attack

[00:23:33] or like COVID, you know,

[00:23:34] infecting most of his protective detail,

[00:23:37] JSOC steps in

[00:23:38] and takes over protection of the president.

[00:23:40] So they have,

[00:23:41] JSOC has quite a bit of experience

[00:23:43] and somewhat of a role to play in this

[00:23:44] at least for protecting the president of the United States.

[00:23:47] And I would imagine

[00:23:49] that expertise has been offered by JSOC

[00:23:52] to the Ukrainians in some way.

[00:23:54] I would be hard for me to imagine that it hasn't been.

[00:23:56] Yeah.

[00:23:56] And also,

[00:23:58] you never know,

[00:23:59] it might be American help

[00:24:01] that helped foil this plot.

[00:24:03] They, you know,

[00:24:03] it might be some signals intelligence

[00:24:05] that picked up on this

[00:24:06] or maybe even an asset deep in Russia

[00:24:09] who called up their handler to say,

[00:24:11] hey, this plot's going to happen.

[00:24:14] So in that night early on in the war,

[00:24:16] whereas Zelensky famously said like,

[00:24:18] I don't need a ride.

[00:24:19] I need ammunition.

[00:24:21] And I think changed the course of the war that night

[00:24:24] just with that alone.

[00:24:25] I think JSOC was prepared to go into Kiev

[00:24:29] while it was a frontline city

[00:24:30] and extract him to Poland

[00:24:33] to lead the government in exile.

[00:24:35] Yeah.

[00:24:36] Yeah.

[00:24:36] He didn't do an Ashraf Ghani.

[00:24:39] That's the thing as well.

[00:24:40] Like if you again,

[00:24:41] like the comparison of the fall of Afghanistan

[00:24:44] versus what happened in Kiev,

[00:24:46] just so different.

[00:24:47] Yeah.

[00:24:48] Again, why I find Zelensky quite inspiring really

[00:24:50] because it was everything was there

[00:24:52] for him to be a government in exile.

[00:24:54] And I don't think anybody would have held it against him

[00:24:57] if he had done that.

[00:24:58] So you're ready to go get him out.

[00:25:00] Indeed.

[00:25:01] Indeed.

[00:25:02] So yeah.

[00:25:02] So no,

[00:25:03] so I worry,

[00:25:04] I'm always worried about Ukraine and Zelensky,

[00:25:07] but I just,

[00:25:08] yeah,

[00:25:08] I think towards the end of this year,

[00:25:09] getting rid near the elections

[00:25:11] is probably where things might get really hot.

[00:25:14] Yeah.

[00:25:14] Let's hope not.

[00:25:15] So it's,

[00:25:16] I don't know.

[00:25:16] I just hope some sort of calm comes out.

[00:25:19] I don't know.

[00:25:19] It's well,

[00:25:20] it feels so chaotic at the moment.

[00:25:21] So it's,

[00:25:22] yeah.

[00:25:23] Yeah.

[00:25:24] Well,

[00:25:24] let's look at some Russian sabotage.

[00:25:26] Speaking of more chaos.

[00:25:27] Yeah.

[00:25:28] Wow.

[00:25:29] So just to kind of continue on with all that.

[00:25:32] So yeah,

[00:25:33] European intelligence agencies have just issued warnings

[00:25:36] about Russia's increasing plots for violent acts of sabotage

[00:25:40] across the continent.

[00:25:41] And this includes covert bombings,

[00:25:43] arson attacks,

[00:25:44] infrastructure damage.

[00:25:46] And these are often executed directly all through proxies

[00:25:49] with little regard for civilian casualties.

[00:25:52] And evidence suggests a more aggressive and coordinated

[00:25:55] effort by the Kremlin as reported by assessments

[00:25:59] from multiple European countries.

[00:26:01] Intelligence officials are actively raising awareness

[00:26:04] of the threat to promote vigilance.

[00:26:07] Recent arrests in Germany and the UK,

[00:26:09] along with ongoing investigations in Sweden and

[00:26:12] Estonia highlight the seriousness of the situation.

[00:26:16] The uptick in Russian activity prompts concerns about

[00:26:19] resource allocation,

[00:26:20] intelligence efficiency,

[00:26:22] and the need for enhanced countermeasures to detect

[00:26:26] and prevent further acts of sabotage.

[00:26:29] Recent events such as the 2023 hack attack on the

[00:26:33] Germany's social democratic party and attempts to

[00:26:36] influence far right European politicians highlight

[00:26:39] a pattern of increased aggression by Russian intelligence.

[00:26:43] The expulsion of over 600 Russian intelligence

[00:26:45] officer post the Ukraine invasion has weakened

[00:26:48] the Kremlin spy network prompting a strategic shift

[00:26:51] towards reconstructing their presence in Europe

[00:26:54] through proxies and coordinated intelligence operations.

[00:26:58] Security services are on high alert with questions

[00:27:01] raised over unexplained incidents like the explosions

[00:27:05] and ammunition factory in Wales supplying Ukraine

[00:27:08] and the recent fire at a Berlin munitions factory

[00:27:11] also linked with Ukrainian supplies.

[00:27:14] These incidents seen as potential are seen as

[00:27:17] potential practice runs not only to aim to create

[00:27:20] disruption but also to serve disinformation purposes

[00:27:23] and provide insights for future attacks aiming

[00:27:27] to destabilize Europe.

[00:27:29] So yeah, so things are heating up here.

[00:27:32] Matt, I'd love you have any thoughts on any of that?

[00:27:35] Yeah, I think this is a development that warrants

[00:27:38] serious attention from European security services.

[00:27:41] I mean we've discussed on this show in the past

[00:27:44] Russian sabotage operations in Eastern Europe

[00:27:47] some that long predate the war.

[00:27:49] I think Michael Weiss the insider and Krzysztof

[00:27:52] Grozev like that crew.

[00:27:54] Yes.

[00:27:55] There's a truck full of ammunition had bombs in it

[00:27:58] when they went through quite a few places.

[00:28:01] Right, like it was just in the Czech Republic

[00:28:06] and Bulgaria, was there one in Moldova?

[00:28:08] I think so, yeah.

[00:28:10] And if that had gone off in any of those cities

[00:28:12] that would have been devastating.

[00:28:14] Right, but this seems to be the first indication

[00:28:17] at least has been disclosed this widely

[00:28:19] that Russia is targeting the industrial bases

[00:28:22] of major European powers like Germany

[00:28:24] and perhaps the UK, right?

[00:28:26] I mean I sort of want to relate this in a way

[00:28:29] to what I said previously with regards to Zelensky.

[00:28:33] I'm not giving the Russians advice here

[00:28:36] or saying that they have a point or a right to do so

[00:28:38] but just from a realistic like let's look at this rationally.

[00:28:44] I mean, I say this all the time not just in regards to Ukraine

[00:28:50] but with all sorts of life issues

[00:28:51] I think this applies to.

[00:28:53] But if you throw a punch you need to be prepared

[00:28:56] to take a punch back.

[00:28:58] Western intelligence agencies are conducting

[00:29:01] I think it's safe to say some extensive

[00:29:03] and unprecedented sabotage campaigns

[00:29:06] aimed at disrupting Russia's capacity to wage war in Ukraine.

[00:29:10] Of course the Russians are going to respond in kind

[00:29:12] like it would be malpractice of the GRU

[00:29:14] and the SBR not to at least try.

[00:29:18] I think so then it's incumbent upon us

[00:29:21] to disrupt these plots.

[00:29:23] It's their job to try, it's our job to stop them.

[00:29:26] Well they're on a war footing now.

[00:29:27] This is what happened in World War II.

[00:29:29] Either the Luftwaffe were directly bombing British factories

[00:29:33] or there was German sabotage going on.

[00:29:35] Right, absolutely.

[00:29:36] Yeah, they got in I think in concentration camps

[00:29:39] and stuff where they were printing like super authentic

[00:29:42] counterfeit currency that they wanted to airdrop into

[00:29:45] into the UK to destroy the value of the pound.

[00:29:50] It's crazy.

[00:29:51] Yeah, it's you know, I think to your point

[00:29:54] of what you were saying earlier about you know

[00:29:56] what happens if Trump loses and Putin's looking at another

[00:29:59] like four years of continued Western support

[00:30:03] for Ukraine kind of assured perhaps upping these efforts

[00:30:07] becomes more attractive to him.

[00:30:09] You know, if he realizes that there isn't some sort

[00:30:12] of silver bullet that he can fire to win the war

[00:30:15] like you know, Trump getting elected or something.

[00:30:18] No indeed, indeed.

[00:30:19] So there might be more of this to come.

[00:30:21] Well since this story initially broke,

[00:30:23] the British government has announced new plans

[00:30:25] to expel some staff from the Russian Embassy

[00:30:28] and to close several diplomatic sites across the country.

[00:30:31] So Russia's defense attache is accused of being

[00:30:35] an undeclared military intelligence officer

[00:30:37] and he is to be expelled from the UK.

[00:30:40] His name is Colonel Maxim Elevik

[00:30:42] and he sounds a bit French now, but anyway, Maxim Elevik

[00:30:46] and he appears to have been in the UK since at least 2014.

[00:30:50] So you know, he's been here a good 10 years

[00:30:52] and if he is an intelligence officer, you can bet

[00:30:55] he knows and is intimately connected to Russian operations

[00:30:58] in the UK that have been happening over the last 10 years

[00:31:01] that may even include the attempted scribble poisoning.

[00:31:04] Now one of the so-called diplomatic sites to be closed

[00:31:07] is a 50 bedroom mansion in the village of Ticehurst

[00:31:11] in Sussex and it's called Seacox Heath

[00:31:13] and it looks really nice.

[00:31:15] I mean it's shot to fame in the late 90s

[00:31:17] when Russian guard dogs savaged 50 local sheep

[00:31:20] and having a quick look at the property on Google Maps

[00:31:23] it does look amazing

[00:31:24] and apparently the Russian government

[00:31:25] have been there since 1946.

[00:31:28] Is it like a like a retreat residence for the embassy staff?

[00:31:31] Exactly, yeah.

[00:31:32] So Russian, you know, Russian staff go there

[00:31:34] for personal breaks

[00:31:36] and in recent time,

[00:31:38] villagers who live locally to it have now been

[00:31:40] sort of it's been the focus of pro-Ukraine

[00:31:43] protests by locals from the village

[00:31:46] and I'm sure there's a lot of Cold War history

[00:31:48] connected to that building

[00:31:50] and when it's closed, I do wonder if it's possible

[00:31:52] to get a little peek inside

[00:31:54] but that might be a bit.

[00:31:55] Those sort of retreat residences

[00:31:58] for the for Russian embassy staff overseas

[00:32:00] have kind of been a very niche interest of mine

[00:32:03] so there's one that we closed.

[00:32:06] I think it was after Crimea.

[00:32:09] It's called Pioneer Point

[00:32:11] which is on the eastern shore of Maryland

[00:32:13] on the Chesapeake Bay,

[00:32:14] maybe an hour or so from DC.

[00:32:18] That was closed.

[00:32:19] There is another one in the U.S.

[00:32:22] It's on Long Island.

[00:32:23] It's an old like Gold Coast mansion.

[00:32:26] I think it's called Kenilworth

[00:32:27] off the top of my head.

[00:32:28] That's used by the Russian mission to the UN.

[00:32:32] I'm not sure if that was closed or not off the top of my head.

[00:32:35] I want to say I think it's still open

[00:32:37] because it's the UN

[00:32:38] so it's like a different diplomatically legally.

[00:32:40] It's kind of like a different status.

[00:32:42] Yeah, there was one in San Francisco.

[00:32:43] Wasn't there one near San Francisco?

[00:32:45] The consulate in San Francisco

[00:32:46] I know was closed

[00:32:48] because in a beforehand they were pictures of like the chimneys.

[00:32:50] There was lots of smoke coming out of chimneys.

[00:32:52] They elected a new pope.

[00:32:53] Yeah, allegedly that's been happening.

[00:32:55] Journalists apparently have seen similar sort of things going on at

[00:33:00] at Seacock's Heath.

[00:33:01] There's been some alleged burning of materials.

[00:33:04] There's this gorgeous old mansion

[00:33:06] and a few acres of Parkland on the Bosphorus in Istanbul.

[00:33:11] Yeah, that's a retreat for the Russian consulate there.

[00:33:14] Yeah.

[00:33:15] That mansion will feature prominently in upcoming volumes of my active measures.

[00:33:22] Nice. There we go.

[00:33:23] Cool. Cool.

[00:33:25] That's good.

[00:33:26] Yeah, I don't know what happens.

[00:33:28] Why ever happens these diplomatic properties?

[00:33:30] They just they get sold or they just stay closed?

[00:33:33] No, they just I don't know at least in the US.

[00:33:36] I don't know if we legally have the right to sell them.

[00:33:39] I think the State Department and the FBI just sort of forced them to close

[00:33:43] and they're just sort of like just mothball, you know, shuttered

[00:33:46] like the Iranian embassy in D.C.

[00:33:51] It's it's been sitting empty since like, you know, like 79.

[00:33:55] Well, I'm not sure who comes along and like mows the grass and stuff.

[00:33:58] I've walked past it a few times and it's not like it's not like it's clearly closed

[00:34:02] but it's not like falling down.

[00:34:03] Maybe there's a State Department Department purely for this task.

[00:34:06] There's a mode of closed diplomatics.

[00:34:09] Maybe. I hope you're good like a good article or something.

[00:34:13] It's definitely going to be something to look at.

[00:34:14] Maybe I have to ask Shane Harris.

[00:34:15] You'll probably know what happens.

[00:34:16] I could text him.

[00:34:18] I might do that later.

[00:34:19] Yeah, yeah.

[00:34:20] Actually, it's kind of good idea.

[00:34:21] No, definitely.

[00:34:22] Anyway.

[00:34:23] Yeah.

[00:34:23] Well, no.

[00:34:24] Well, one other note, I suppose with the we've kind of said it,

[00:34:27] but why does Russia conduct sabotage operations?

[00:34:30] Well, you can disrupt the manufacturing and supply of weapons.

[00:34:34] It can really help the Russian war effort.

[00:34:36] We've already sort of seen how the hold up of USA to Ukraine has helped.

[00:34:42] So if you can suddenly start bombing the factories of places that make things,

[00:34:46] it suddenly it changes things.

[00:34:48] It will a make it, you know, slow down the manufacturing of weapons,

[00:34:51] but B it might even start making political leaders think twice or

[00:34:55] or at least the citizens of countries will start to potentially lose support

[00:34:59] for the war in Ukraine.

[00:35:01] If members of the public start getting killed or family members start getting killed.

[00:35:05] I mean, God, if one of these, you know,

[00:35:07] if the Russians start planting bombs in the trucks that supply these things,

[00:35:10] which I doubt they would.

[00:35:11] But while they've done it in Europe, but if they did it here that and it went off,

[00:35:15] I don't know, somewhere on the M 25 or going through London now be a disaster

[00:35:20] diplomatically as well as from a humanity point of view.

[00:35:24] It wouldn't be so good.

[00:35:24] Well, we know that the Russians came very close for it was for not

[00:35:29] for a lack of trying to shoot down an RAF.

[00:35:31] Was it a rivet joint aircraft or the Black Sea?

[00:35:34] Yeah.

[00:35:34] You know, so that's sort of like offensive like kinetic to the point

[00:35:38] of like, we're going to kill people.

[00:35:40] Yeah.

[00:35:40] You know, that's that's that's already there.

[00:35:42] Well, that happened at the very time we were recording our first ever espresso

[00:35:46] martini all that happened then while we're on the air.

[00:35:51] That happened in World War Three could have kicked off should all that

[00:35:54] have gone gone sideways.

[00:35:56] So yeah.

[00:35:56] Yeah.

[00:35:57] Yeah.

[00:35:57] One thing I will add, I can't say much more about it, but in UK

[00:36:01] there is it's been reported that three individuals have been arrested

[00:36:04] and are currently undergoing trial and suspicion of carrying out

[00:36:07] arson attacks allegedly linked to the Russian intelligence services.

[00:36:11] So keep an eye out on that trial that I think is due to start on the 10th of May.

[00:36:16] We will see what happens.

[00:36:18] They may be totally innocent.

[00:36:19] Who knows?

[00:36:20] But it certainly feels close to home when people have been arrested

[00:36:24] on suspicion of such.

[00:36:25] Yeah.

[00:36:26] I know the laws over there are a bit different than they are here

[00:36:29] and that's sort of limiting us from from talking about it a bit more.

[00:36:33] I mean, I could probably say it without without any issue sitting here.

[00:36:37] But yeah, because you and I are here together and it's right.

[00:36:42] It's the same show you and I are here together.

[00:36:44] It's the same pot of ad revenue that we're drawing from.

[00:36:46] So I won't do that, but that's why we're not talking about it.

[00:36:49] If at some point in the future you can talk about it then we will.

[00:36:52] Chris has left the room, the podcast and the edits for Matt to say this bit.

[00:36:56] Yeah.

[00:36:57] Now he's back.

[00:36:59] Could get my cat up here as a witness.

[00:37:01] See Chris left the chat even refused to edit this bit.

[00:37:09] Yeah, no laws in the UK are a bit tighter when it comes to ongoing trials

[00:37:13] in case we influence the jury.

[00:37:15] So there we go.

[00:37:16] So don't be influenced by what we say.

[00:37:18] Right.

[00:37:18] Let's take a break and we'll be right back.

[00:37:39] So we have German spy plots going on.

[00:37:42] So some stuff we could talk about with that.

[00:37:43] So you know, the Russians have been busy.

[00:37:46] You know, they've been busy bodies for quite some time now since the 1940s really

[00:37:52] but earlier.

[00:37:53] But yeah, so we've got these new current German spy plots going on

[00:37:56] and Konstantin von Notz used ahead of the Budenstags Intelligence

[00:38:01] Intelligence Committee has issued a stark warning about the ties between

[00:38:06] Germans far right alternative for Germany party, which the AFD

[00:38:10] and authoritarian regimes.

[00:38:12] He claims that the AFD's connections have led to almost daily spying plots

[00:38:17] targeting Germany indicating a concerning trend of influence and

[00:38:21] destabilization attempts by autocratic states.

[00:38:24] Not secused the AFD leaders of aligning themselves closely with

[00:38:28] autocratic regimes like Russia, China and North Korea, all fun places

[00:38:33] rather than with democracies in Germany and Europe.

[00:38:35] He suggests that AFD members are susceptible to being used as

[00:38:38] pawns by regime to undermine German interests and democracy.

[00:38:43] And the stark warning came as Germany reels from a series of

[00:38:46] espionage plots, including one involving a research assistant

[00:38:50] to the AFD's MEP who is accused of passing state secrets to China.

[00:38:55] Notz said, unfortunately, many people in politics, business

[00:38:59] and science still lack the necessary awareness of the dangers

[00:39:02] posed by China and other authoritarian states for our democracy,

[00:39:07] the economy and the freedom of science.

[00:39:09] The AFD, however, has vehemently denied allegations of collusion

[00:39:14] with authoritarian regimes and espionage activities.

[00:39:17] They dismiss reports suggesting Russian involvement in drafting

[00:39:20] parts of their internal affairs manifesto as a cock and

[00:39:24] ball story, which is quite an English expression there, and

[00:39:27] the parties portray themselves as victims claiming to be

[00:39:30] targeted by mainstream parties due to its surging popularity.

[00:39:34] The rise of the AFD in German politics, particularly in eastern

[00:39:38] Germany as a concern surrounding its alleged ties with

[00:39:42] authoritarian regimes, the parties anti-immigration stance and

[00:39:46] growing popularity of spark worries about the influence of

[00:39:48] foreign powers on German democracy and security.

[00:39:52] So Matt, do you have any thoughts on this one?

[00:39:55] Yeah, I think it's time to really kind of take seriously

[00:40:00] and act seriously toward these sorts of European political

[00:40:04] groups like the AFD and figures who lead them.

[00:40:08] You know, it's sort of interesting that like the difference

[00:40:13] in laws between the US and Europe that are like the same

[00:40:17] differences that would allow me to openly comment on that

[00:40:20] last case that keep you from commenting on it are also

[00:40:24] the reasons that your security services could take a much

[00:40:27] greater degree of action against these groups than the FBI

[00:40:30] can.

[00:40:31] You know, it's like it's like the same essentially the same

[00:40:34] law that laws that are just sort of you know different

[00:40:37] different size of that same law.

[00:40:39] I think it's good though that like the AFD is really seem

[00:40:42] to be getting called out internally within Germany.

[00:40:45] I'm not sure offhand how currently popular they are

[00:40:50] within the country.

[00:40:50] I know they have a serious degree of support on that

[00:40:53] shirt.

[00:40:54] I'm not sure how serious, but you know every autocrat

[00:40:57] ac nearly every autocratic movement in the last few

[00:41:00] centuries has used democracy to take power and then

[00:41:03] destroy it.

[00:41:04] You know, and I'm really kind of sick of us just sort of

[00:41:08] sitting on our on our hands and being like what are

[00:41:10] we what do you what what else can we do?

[00:41:12] You know, and just sort of not actively stop these

[00:41:16] people from from doing so, you know, like enough is

[00:41:18] enough.

[00:41:19] It is weird thing that like if a an American or a

[00:41:23] German or a British politician or something openly

[00:41:27] parrots Russian propaganda talking points, you know,

[00:41:31] openly advocates their worldview their view of the

[00:41:35] case.

[00:41:36] That's not illegal.

[00:41:38] Right?

[00:41:38] Like that's just speech.

[00:41:40] That's that's okay.

[00:41:42] But if they do it secretly, you know and meet up

[00:41:47] with a Russian in a parking garage to hear your

[00:41:51] talking points that I want you to sort of, you know,

[00:41:54] move into the body politics somehow.

[00:41:57] That's where it becomes illegal and that's where you

[00:41:58] can do it like it's it's an odd aspect of the moment

[00:42:02] that we've been in for the last, you know, decade or

[00:42:05] so that people realize it if they just do this

[00:42:08] shit out in the open, we get sort of we don't

[00:42:11] really know how to deal with that.

[00:42:13] Yeah, we just said they're very clever at

[00:42:15] telling that fine line to get it with terrorism

[00:42:17] to get these people these Islamist extremists

[00:42:20] who know the lesser of the law and are very careful

[00:42:23] not to directly incite violence or to sort of go

[00:42:27] out and say go and, you know, pledge your allegiance

[00:42:31] to bin Laden or something.

[00:42:32] They just know if you don't say those things,

[00:42:34] you can skirt the law.

[00:42:36] It's the thing we sometimes, you know, like assume

[00:42:39] that people on the far right or terrorists

[00:42:42] can be a bit stupid, but they're not a lot

[00:42:44] of them are especially leaders of very smart people.

[00:42:47] Right?

[00:42:48] It's a major pet peeve of mine that people hide

[00:42:52] behind the protection of certain laws to champion

[00:42:57] causes and attempt to gain power that would then

[00:43:00] immediately subvert those laws that they're

[00:43:03] being protected by.

[00:43:04] You know, it's an especially kind of shitty thing.

[00:43:06] It is.

[00:43:07] And I don't know what the answer to it is, but

[00:43:10] there's something, you know, because it seems

[00:43:12] quite obvious sometimes these people are doing it

[00:43:14] and they're, I don't know.

[00:43:15] It is there's something maybe it's my inner fascist

[00:43:18] coming out, but something somewhere needs to,

[00:43:21] to there needs to be some sort of claws somewhere

[00:43:23] where I don't know what you'd call that clause

[00:43:25] now you'd prove it, but the hiding in plain sight

[00:43:28] clause obviously destabilized democracy.

[00:43:31] Yeah, tricky one.

[00:43:32] Is it?

[00:43:33] Yeah.

[00:43:33] Yeah.

[00:43:33] I mean at the start of World War Two, Oswald

[00:43:35] Moseley was like locked up like immediately.

[00:43:37] Wasn't he?

[00:43:37] Oh yeah.

[00:43:38] Yeah.

[00:43:38] Yeah.

[00:43:38] Yeah.

[00:43:39] There wasn't there wasn't no one dealt with

[00:43:41] Oswald Moseley walking around the UK all

[00:43:43] throughout World War Two being like actually

[00:43:45] Mr. Hitler is good.

[00:43:46] Like this just wasn't tolerated like you're gone by.

[00:43:49] Yeah.

[00:43:49] I don't know what would be the situation if there

[00:43:51] were an open conflict with Russia in America.

[00:43:54] Could change things.

[00:43:55] I could change things like a aid in comfort

[00:43:58] to the enemy or something if you declared war

[00:44:00] against this country.

[00:44:01] I'm not sure how that would work.

[00:44:02] Yeah, been interesting one though on but

[00:44:04] but there we go.

[00:44:05] I'll just add that, you know, I've been

[00:44:07] saying for a while that Russia is attractive

[00:44:09] to members of the far right because it presents

[00:44:11] itself as the saver of the white Christian world

[00:44:13] and as a force against God forbid, woke culture

[00:44:17] and this makes Russia ideologically attractive

[00:44:19] to those in the far right and recent arrests

[00:44:22] in Germany of members of the intelligence

[00:44:24] service and military that we talked about in

[00:44:25] the past have shown that those arrested

[00:44:27] did have far right sympathies.

[00:44:29] And obviously there should be a concern in the

[00:44:31] UK, Europe and America because there's a

[00:44:34] risk that there are far leaning members of our

[00:44:37] own security and armed forces and they could

[00:44:40] potentially pose a security threat.

[00:44:41] I do sometimes wonder if people still think

[00:44:45] about people spying for Russia are still

[00:44:47] kind of left wing inspired people now left

[00:44:50] wing inspired people probably do still

[00:44:52] sometimes spy for Russia, but I think

[00:44:54] now it's all shifted.

[00:44:55] I think the profile is definitely since

[00:44:58] maybe 2010 onwards.

[00:45:00] I suspect that most people who spy for Russia

[00:45:03] in the West have far right leanings and

[00:45:05] kind of buy into their ideology.

[00:45:07] That is if they're ideologically motivated.

[00:45:09] Obviously it still leaves the room open for

[00:45:11] financial gain and it was the other one

[00:45:15] coercion, etc.

[00:45:17] There's still other reasons why people might

[00:45:19] spy for Russia, but certainly on the

[00:45:21] ideological side of things the far right

[00:45:23] seems to be the kind of game in town.

[00:45:25] And obviously my recent interview with

[00:45:26] former MI6 officer turned author Charles

[00:45:29] Burmont does go into some detail about

[00:45:30] that concern.

[00:45:31] So we've not heard that interview.

[00:45:33] It came out last weekend and it's quite

[00:45:35] an interesting one and Charles's book

[00:45:36] kind of does talk about, you know,

[00:45:39] a member of the British right who has

[00:45:41] ended up spying for Russia.

[00:45:42] So it's yeah and for him to come out of

[00:45:45] the book like that kind of really makes

[00:45:46] me think that we're probably on the

[00:45:48] right track with that line of thinking.

[00:45:50] The other comment that stood out for me

[00:45:51] out of not his comments were about

[00:45:54] people lacking the necessary awareness

[00:45:57] of the dangers posed by China

[00:45:59] and other authoritarian states.

[00:46:02] And I think certainly in popular culture

[00:46:04] more people are suspicious of our own

[00:46:06] governments and they're messaging than

[00:46:08] they are of authoritarian governments.

[00:46:10] And I still think that there are a lot

[00:46:13] of people who are still not very wise

[00:46:15] the fact that Russia and China are

[00:46:18] spending a vast fortune.

[00:46:19] I think for China it was something like

[00:46:21] seven billion dollars on misinformation

[00:46:24] operations aimed at the West.

[00:46:27] So yeah, so people need to be aware

[00:46:29] of that and then with the two German

[00:46:31] nationals who were arrested recently

[00:46:34] of plotting sabotage of Germans

[00:46:36] military aid to Ukraine.

[00:46:38] They basically were of Russian origin.

[00:46:41] So they were doing that for the Russians.

[00:46:42] So you know, there is a potential where

[00:46:44] they might recruit people who have

[00:46:46] some sort of Russian lineage as well.

[00:46:48] Not that one should be suspicious

[00:46:50] of all Russians definitely not

[00:46:51] but certainly there's some kind

[00:46:54] of pattern there as well.

[00:46:55] And the espionage threat is not

[00:46:56] just against military intelligence

[00:46:58] targets is about you know

[00:46:59] it's also looking at technological advances

[00:47:01] as well.

[00:47:02] Technological secrets are stolen

[00:47:04] for a multitude of reasons.

[00:47:05] But one reason is to save research

[00:47:07] and development costs.

[00:47:09] So you know anybody who works

[00:47:11] in a lab or universities

[00:47:13] kind of at the cutting edge of research

[00:47:15] are going to be targets

[00:47:16] for Russian and Chinese spies

[00:47:19] and there have been many a scandal

[00:47:21] involving China in the past

[00:47:22] and especially in the UK

[00:47:24] there's been some universities

[00:47:25] that have been given a warning

[00:47:27] that they might be a target.

[00:47:29] And I think there are some people

[00:47:31] at universities who think

[00:47:33] this is all old Cold War's paranoia

[00:47:36] but it really isn't.

[00:47:37] You know these sort of things are going on

[00:47:39] so people need to be careful of that.

[00:47:42] And on that note

[00:47:43] Matt you picked out a piece

[00:47:44] about something called vault typhoon.

[00:47:47] Lots of like a lots of intrigue

[00:47:49] and plotting around sabotage

[00:47:51] operations in this episode kind of.

[00:47:52] Yeah.

[00:47:53] So in that kind of movie today.

[00:47:55] Yeah.

[00:47:57] Recent recent high level

[00:48:00] US China talks directly

[00:48:01] addressed a vault typhoon

[00:48:03] and espionage campaign

[00:48:04] targeting American critical infrastructure.

[00:48:06] Nathaniel Fick the State Department's ambassador

[00:48:09] at large for cyberspace

[00:48:10] and digital policy

[00:48:11] confirmed discussions

[00:48:12] during Secretary Blinken's recent trip to China

[00:48:15] where he emphasized that

[00:48:16] risking American critical infrastructure

[00:48:17] is dangerous and unacceptable.

[00:48:19] President Biden also discussed

[00:48:21] vault typhoon

[00:48:22] with Chinese President Xi Jinping

[00:48:24] the US and allies reported

[00:48:26] that vault typhoon maintained

[00:48:28] network access for at least five years

[00:48:30] this is across you know

[00:48:31] a wide range of infrastructure

[00:48:33] like power of water systems

[00:48:34] that kind of stuff.

[00:48:35] US officials warned of potentially crippling cyber attacks

[00:48:38] on water electricity

[00:48:40] and military infrastructure

[00:48:41] in the event of a full scale

[00:48:42] war between the two countries

[00:48:43] Beijing denied any affiliation

[00:48:45] with the hacking network

[00:48:46] initially Fick labeled the behavior

[00:48:48] violation of the UN cyberspace framework

[00:48:51] later stating it contravenes

[00:48:53] the agreement spirit

[00:48:54] both countries plan to meet

[00:48:55] in a third country soon

[00:48:57] to discuss artificial intelligence issues.

[00:48:59] Chris what do you think?

[00:49:00] Well it's an interesting one now.

[00:49:01] First of all, I wasn't really up to speed

[00:49:03] on what vault typhoon was

[00:49:04] before this article.

[00:49:05] So just for those not in the know

[00:49:08] is a Chinese state sponsored hacker group

[00:49:11] and it uses malicious software

[00:49:13] that penetrates internet connected systems

[00:49:16] by exploiting vulnerabilities

[00:49:17] such as weak administrator passwords

[00:49:20] factory default logins

[00:49:22] and devices that haven't been updated regularly.

[00:49:24] So do your updates

[00:49:26] and vault typhoon apparently

[00:49:27] functions

[00:49:28] in a similar way to traditional botnet operators

[00:49:31] who have plagued the internet for decades

[00:49:33] and they just look for

[00:49:35] and take control of vulnerability

[00:49:37] of internet devices

[00:49:38] such as routers security cameras

[00:49:40] to hide and established

[00:49:42] something called a beachhead in advance

[00:49:44] of using that system

[00:49:45] for future attacks.

[00:49:46] Hope that makes sense

[00:49:47] because it almost makes sense to me.

[00:49:49] So it's an interesting one this one

[00:49:52] and I think as we said earlier

[00:49:52] with the spy threat

[00:49:53] from Germany vault typhoon

[00:49:55] is another way for China

[00:49:56] to kind of get hold of secrets

[00:49:58] and it also has the potential

[00:50:00] to cause disruption

[00:50:02] on a sort of domestic level

[00:50:04] because Blinken came out

[00:50:05] with an interesting comment saying

[00:50:06] it's very clear

[00:50:07] that holding American critical infrastructure at risk

[00:50:11] especially civilian critical infrastructure

[00:50:14] is dangerous and escalatory

[00:50:16] and it's unacceptable.

[00:50:17] You know, we've seen

[00:50:18] there's been all sorts of stories

[00:50:20] about powerhouse jizz

[00:50:21] or hacking the NHS

[00:50:22] and other things kind of going on

[00:50:24] between Britain and America

[00:50:26] and it might well be connected to vault typhoon

[00:50:29] and you know, obviously

[00:50:30] should God forbid

[00:50:31] we end up in a direct conflict

[00:50:33] with China over Taiwan

[00:50:35] you know, exploiting the vulnerabilities

[00:50:37] of infrastructure might well come into play

[00:50:40] and so all of this could be just

[00:50:42] yeah, I think

[00:50:43] I guess every military

[00:50:45] because I'm sure America does it too

[00:50:47] and I suppose it's the responsibility

[00:50:49] of every military

[00:50:50] and intelligence services

[00:50:51] to understand the weaknesses

[00:50:53] of every kind of country

[00:50:56] that you may or may not

[00:50:57] end up in conflict with

[00:50:58] and so vault typhoon

[00:51:00] is possibly part of that plan

[00:51:02] just to kind of keep on top of

[00:51:04] what vulnerabilities there are

[00:51:05] that they able to exploit

[00:51:07] and on top of that

[00:51:07] to be able to just steal secrets

[00:51:09] because it saves money

[00:51:10] and research and development

[00:51:12] if you can steal stuff

[00:51:13] and obviously the Chinese military

[00:51:14] and their aircraft

[00:51:15] have a remarkably

[00:51:16] similar look

[00:51:17] to a lot of Chinese

[00:51:18] to a lot of American ones

[00:51:19] so definitely

[00:51:20] something's been going on

[00:51:21] and apparently the FBI

[00:51:23] said that nearly half of their 5,000

[00:51:25] and counterintelligent cases

[00:51:27] are linked to Chinese espionage

[00:51:29] efforts

[00:51:30] so hearing about vault typhoon

[00:51:32] even though I didn't really know

[00:51:32] what it was

[00:51:33] is sadly of no surprise to me really

[00:51:35] and it best have made a very awkward meeting

[00:51:38] between the Chinese

[00:51:39] and the Americans

[00:51:39] yeah from what I understand

[00:51:40] those meetings with the Chinese

[00:51:41] can be especially kind of infuriating

[00:51:43] they're very good

[00:51:44] at just like

[00:51:45] just acting like a brick wall

[00:51:47] you know when you try to talk

[00:51:48] to them about these things

[00:51:49] yeah you know

[00:51:50] I think

[00:51:51] offensive cyber operations

[00:51:52] are an emerging facet of warfare

[00:51:54] that have probably been employed

[00:51:56] far more often than we realize

[00:51:58] over the last 10 years

[00:51:59] like I would bet that

[00:52:01] since or in Ukraine started

[00:52:03] since October 7th

[00:52:04] there's probably been a few rounds

[00:52:06] of this stuff back and forth

[00:52:08] like I'm pretty certain

[00:52:10] that part of our

[00:52:12] response to

[00:52:13] Iran's

[00:52:15] volley of missiles and drones

[00:52:17] at Israel involved

[00:52:19] some sort of offensive

[00:52:20] action in cyberspace

[00:52:22] you know like there's

[00:52:23] one that's been a close

[00:52:24] we targeted that spy ship

[00:52:25] that was feeding targeting data

[00:52:26] to the Houthis

[00:52:28] that's just part of it

[00:52:28] but this is probably

[00:52:30] far more prevalent than we

[00:52:32] then we realize

[00:52:32] and I think there's

[00:52:33] because it's not a kinetic

[00:52:34] like it's not something blowing up

[00:52:36] you know

[00:52:37] that we necessarily don't

[00:52:39] don't hear about it

[00:52:39] when it when it happens

[00:52:40] you know there's nothing

[00:52:41] there's nothing to see

[00:52:42] therefore doesn't get noticed

[00:52:44] and then people don't report on it

[00:52:45] and then we don't have to put out a statement

[00:52:46] from the Pentagon

[00:52:47] about it yada yada yada

[00:52:49] you know when

[00:52:50] the main enemy

[00:52:52] are like terrorist groups

[00:52:53] with limited resources

[00:52:54] or capabilities

[00:52:55] you know we the public

[00:52:57] don't see the consequences of these operations

[00:52:59] in our everyday lives

[00:53:00] right so

[00:53:01] over the war on terror

[00:53:02] and everything

[00:53:03] it's just not

[00:53:03] it's just not something

[00:53:04] that would have

[00:53:05] that would have happened

[00:53:05] but I think

[00:53:06] in a war with a near

[00:53:08] period of Syria

[00:53:08] like China

[00:53:09] it's likely that

[00:53:10] at least in the beginning

[00:53:12] cyber warfare

[00:53:12] something that would become

[00:53:13] probably very new

[00:53:15] in bear would very quickly become

[00:53:17] familiar

[00:53:19] to us

[00:53:19] you know

[00:53:20] it would cause it

[00:53:21] a considerable

[00:53:22] degree of disruption

[00:53:24] at home

[00:53:25] I don't know

[00:53:25] it would be sort of the

[00:53:26] kin to like

[00:53:27] I think

[00:53:28] I think it would be a kin

[00:53:29] to like

[00:53:31] American and British cities

[00:53:32] in World War II

[00:53:32] turning off their lights

[00:53:34] at night

[00:53:34] to protect from

[00:53:35] German bombers

[00:53:36] or

[00:53:37] U-boats

[00:53:37] like there's a lot

[00:53:38] I would think

[00:53:39] there's probably

[00:53:39] like there's like

[00:53:40] Wi-Fi connected

[00:53:41] picture frames

[00:53:42] and stuff

[00:53:43] right that

[00:53:43] like can

[00:53:44] can change out

[00:53:45] stuff from

[00:53:46] from your computer

[00:53:47] whatever

[00:53:48] you'd probably have to

[00:53:49] write nanny cams and stuff

[00:53:50] you're going to have to throw

[00:53:51] all that shit out

[00:53:52] it's just

[00:53:53] it's just a new

[00:53:54] sort of thing

[00:53:54] that we would just

[00:53:55] have to accept

[00:53:56] here on the home front

[00:53:57] and we would just

[00:53:57] have to

[00:53:58] our lives

[00:53:59] our daily lives

[00:54:00] would have to change

[00:54:01] to an extent

[00:54:03] that

[00:54:03] I think

[00:54:04] hasn't been forced upon

[00:54:05] the public

[00:54:07] since World War II

[00:54:08] you know

[00:54:09] yeah

[00:54:09] yeah

[00:54:10] I'm not sure

[00:54:10] we're ready for this

[00:54:11] I don't think

[00:54:11] mentally

[00:54:12] no

[00:54:13] 21st century

[00:54:14] society is ready

[00:54:15] for the fact

[00:54:15] that

[00:54:16] I suspect

[00:54:17] like in a conflict

[00:54:17] like that

[00:54:18] the internet

[00:54:18] be the first thing

[00:54:19] to kind of go down

[00:54:20] and probably stay down

[00:54:21] for the duration

[00:54:22] of that conflict

[00:54:23] I don't know

[00:54:24] that like

[00:54:24] you wouldn't have internet

[00:54:25] for the entire

[00:54:26] extent of like

[00:54:27] a war with China

[00:54:28] like we wouldn't

[00:54:28] have power

[00:54:29] or water

[00:54:30] or something

[00:54:30] that's just

[00:54:31] sort of thing

[00:54:31] that like

[00:54:32] I mean

[00:54:32] there may be disruptions

[00:54:33] to that

[00:54:34] at least

[00:54:34] in the beginning

[00:54:35] and maybe here

[00:54:35] and there

[00:54:36] over time

[00:54:36] and more

[00:54:37] and more

[00:54:38] localized

[00:54:39] circumstances

[00:54:40] like

[00:54:41] Guam

[00:54:41] or Hawaii

[00:54:42] you know

[00:54:43] would probably be

[00:54:44] more effective

[00:54:45] than we are here

[00:54:45] but let's say

[00:54:46] okay

[00:54:46] if you're on

[00:54:47] the same

[00:54:49] if you

[00:54:50] live

[00:54:50] on the same

[00:54:52] electrical grid

[00:54:53] as Travis Air Force Base

[00:54:54] which is like

[00:54:55] a major power projection

[00:54:56] platform in California

[00:54:58] into the Pacific

[00:55:00] on the West Coast

[00:55:01] right

[00:55:01] like you may

[00:55:02] experience

[00:55:03] more kind of

[00:55:04] disruptions

[00:55:05] because you're close

[00:55:05] to Travis Air Force Base

[00:55:07] yeah

[00:55:07] sort of stuff

[00:55:08] like that

[00:55:09] but you know

[00:55:09] like every

[00:55:10] every great power

[00:55:11] conflict

[00:55:12] has birthed

[00:55:12] some new type

[00:55:13] of warfare

[00:55:14] I mean with like

[00:55:15] World War One

[00:55:16] it was like

[00:55:16] planes

[00:55:17] and machine guns

[00:55:17] and tanks

[00:55:18] and chemical weapons

[00:55:19] World War Two

[00:55:20] had

[00:55:21] submarines

[00:55:22] like strategic bombing campaigns

[00:55:24] ballistic missiles

[00:55:26] eventually nuclear weapons

[00:55:27] right at the very end

[00:55:28] you know

[00:55:28] I think for

[00:55:28] World War Three

[00:55:30] that

[00:55:30] new thing

[00:55:32] will likely be

[00:55:32] cyber

[00:55:33] drones

[00:55:34] cyber

[00:55:35] yeah

[00:55:35] there's a

[00:55:35] yeah

[00:55:36] I mean

[00:55:36] what we saw with

[00:55:37] what we've been seeing

[00:55:38] in Ukraine

[00:55:39] and obviously

[00:55:39] with the recent

[00:55:41] Iranian action

[00:55:41] against Israel

[00:55:43] you know

[00:55:43] that's the kind of stuff

[00:55:44] that's probably

[00:55:45] gonna happen

[00:55:46] isn't it's

[00:55:47] yeah

[00:55:47] yeah

[00:55:48] it's interesting

[00:55:48] makes

[00:55:49] you know

[00:55:50] the future of war

[00:55:51] is gonna be fascinating

[00:55:52] yeah

[00:55:53] you also think like

[00:55:54] it's easy

[00:55:55] or

[00:55:55] one's first instinct

[00:55:57] would be to have this

[00:55:58] kind of anxiety

[00:55:59] like oh my God

[00:56:00] the Chinese are

[00:56:00] in our systems

[00:56:01] like we're so far behind

[00:56:02] you know

[00:56:02] blah blah blah blah blah

[00:56:04] it's hard to gauge

[00:56:05] the truth

[00:56:06] to that anxiety

[00:56:07] or how warranted it is

[00:56:08] because we know

[00:56:10] very little

[00:56:11] about

[00:56:12] what we're doing

[00:56:13] offensively

[00:56:13] in this same space

[00:56:14] you know

[00:56:15] like I know

[00:56:16] there's one

[00:56:17] cyber operation

[00:56:18] that was

[00:56:19] it may still be

[00:56:20] but

[00:56:21] was on the shelf

[00:56:22] called

[00:56:23] Nitro Zeus

[00:56:24] which would have

[00:56:25] in like a full-scale war

[00:56:26] between the US

[00:56:27] and Iran

[00:56:27] would have like

[00:56:28] it could have

[00:56:29] like just crippled

[00:56:30] Iran's

[00:56:31] critical infrastructure

[00:56:32] I mean

[00:56:33] yeah

[00:56:33] there

[00:56:34] it's

[00:56:34] I see it

[00:56:35] insert the same way

[00:56:36] as

[00:56:37] you know

[00:56:37] we're talking about

[00:56:38] these

[00:56:38] these sabotage

[00:56:39] these mysterious fires

[00:56:40] and stuff

[00:56:41] that the Russians

[00:56:42] may be responsible for

[00:56:44] in Europe

[00:56:45] it's essentially the same kind of thing

[00:56:47] is just

[00:56:48] rather than having

[00:56:50] like a team

[00:56:51] on the ground

[00:56:52] planting the explosives

[00:56:53] or whatever

[00:56:53] starting the fires

[00:56:55] you know

[00:56:55] they're

[00:56:56] sitting behind a computer screen

[00:56:58] in Beijing

[00:56:59] in some office building

[00:57:00] you know

[00:57:00] it's it's essentially

[00:57:01] the same kind of thing

[00:57:02] you know

[00:57:03] we're

[00:57:04] trying to do it to them

[00:57:06] they're going to try

[00:57:06] to do it to us

[00:57:07] it's their job to try

[00:57:09] it's our job

[00:57:10] to stop them

[00:57:11] so rather than being like

[00:57:12] oh my God

[00:57:12] we're fucked

[00:57:13] like no

[00:57:13] it's like

[00:57:14] pick your chain up

[00:57:15] and do the work

[00:57:16] they're coming for us

[00:57:17] we're coming for them

[00:57:18] yeah

[00:57:19] yeah

[00:57:19] you got to be better

[00:57:20] yeah definitely

[00:57:21] definitely

[00:57:22] so I think one

[00:57:23] I think that's a good note

[00:57:24] to finish on really

[00:57:25] and I think the moral of today's

[00:57:26] tell is we just all have

[00:57:27] to be careful

[00:57:28] and we have to be

[00:57:28] better than our opposition

[00:57:30] so Matt

[00:57:31] thank you very much

[00:57:32] your time on this

[00:57:33] so we're going to move

[00:57:34] over to

[00:57:34] extra shots

[00:57:35] all you need to do

[00:57:36] if you're not

[00:57:37] already a subscriber

[00:57:38] is just click on the link

[00:57:39] in the show notes

[00:57:40] or

[00:57:41] go to patreon.com

[00:57:42] for slash secrets

[00:57:43] and spies

[00:57:44] and you can subscribe there

[00:57:46] and get access to

[00:57:47] extra shot

[00:57:48] and on extra shot

[00:57:49] we're going to be covering

[00:57:50] privacy concerns

[00:57:51] in the age of AI

[00:57:52] then we're going to be

[00:57:53] also looking at the

[00:57:54] plot to discredit democracy

[00:57:56] Putin

[00:57:56] propaganda's

[00:57:57] in Russia

[00:57:58] left us made

[00:57:58] as US

[00:57:59] finally passes

[00:58:00] a bill to Ukraine

[00:58:02] and we'll also

[00:58:02] get a

[00:58:02] sadly look at the

[00:58:04] what's going on

[00:58:04] with the Royal Navy

[00:58:05] at the moment

[00:58:05] which is not

[00:58:06] in the best of places

[00:58:08] so check us out

[00:58:09] on there

[00:58:09] thank you very much

[00:58:10] everybody for listening

[00:58:11] and don't forget

[00:58:12] to follow us

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[00:58:25] also if you enjoyed

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[00:58:33] everybody

[00:58:33] and we'll catch

[00:58:34] you

[00:58:34] on the next one

[00:58:35] take care

[00:58:35] bye guys

[00:58:48] thanks for listening

[00:58:50] this is secrets

[00:58:51] and spies